Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Steppa
Gallente Incognito Inc
|
Posted - 2007.11.26 18:05:00 -
[1]
The muse just struck me as I'm balancing my checkbook here and was pondering the pros and cons of starting up a new industrial character. Even as a four-year veteran of this game, I'm loath to do that because once I start him up, I've basically got to wait x number of days until his learns are up to a point where skills are quicker to train. This is one of the biggest dead horses that's been beaten on these forums, but I wonder if anyone has ever suggested doing away with the learning skills completely?
Obviously, they don't do anything but enable quicker training. Unlike other MMO's, none of your attributes are taken into account when doing anything that's done in the gameworld.
So, to level the playing field between absolutely new players and the old guard...remove them from the game.
1) Let everyone determine their starting attributes at character creation. Adjust so that it's possible to start out with what amounts to level IV basic learns and increase/decrease attributes into the advanced learn ranges through school choices or heritage choices. 2) Use implants to increase from there or include attribute-increasing storyline missions to further increase a character's attributes. 3) Allow current players to roll back skill points invested in learning skills to redistribute as they please on EXISTING SKILLS...or do it unrestricted at a 2:1 ratio. Or just allow us to do it in an unrestricted manner.
Again, just pondering.
|
Xonkra
Gallente
|
Posted - 2007.11.26 18:12:00 -
[2]
so because YOU wanna start a new account the system should adapt to YOU ?
wooosh
Originally by: Illyria Ambri No matter how you want to say it.. it always sounds like
*frog clearing throat* "Ve zurrendur, dunt schuut"
|
James Swindle
Caldari Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2007.11.26 18:18:00 -
[3]
I agree with you, in that they should just get rid of learning skills and just give +10 on all the attributes. Learning skills are just a waste of time, and just slow down people getting into the real meat of the game!
|
SirMoric
|
Posted - 2007.11.26 18:23:00 -
[4]
Learningskills actually gives you time to learn the game.
While you spend time learning about the secret of learning, you also spend time learning the game from the smallest crafts and onwards.
rgds
|
Viqer Fell
Minmatar Trinity Nova
|
Posted - 2007.11.26 18:23:00 -
[5]
As someone who would probably fall into the vet category having 60 odd million sp I must say that I do see some merit to the idea but I honestly doubt it will be given any credence as it represents quite a fundamental change to the game in that CCP have always flatly refused to look at re-speccing characters and this is a small step towards that route.
Also this thread is probably best placed within the Game Development forum as it would just simply get lost in the morass of "general forum"
Click here to visit our site
|
Smantha Dering
Caldari Black Watch Legionnaires
|
Posted - 2007.11.26 18:27:00 -
[6]
Why? So I can lose the benefit of having learned my learning skills beyond what most do? So we can all be equal? Sorry I disagree.
|
k Rose
Aeon Interstellar Conglomerate Aeon Group Enterprises
|
Posted - 2007.11.26 18:32:00 -
[7]
Your whines about SKILL POINT are disgusting.
Try another game!
|
Nicho Void
Hyper-Nova Tenth Legion
|
Posted - 2007.11.26 18:36:00 -
[8]
I've yet to understand why new characters should be buffed to be equal with old characters...IN ANY FACET of this game.
Play the damn game, FFS.
|
Ragornok
Multiversal Enterprise Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.11.26 18:41:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Ragornok on 26/11/2007 18:42:24 You do realize that giving everybody +10 to all attributes means that old players will be just as far ahead and still training faster than new players, right? Not to mention, newer players that struggle to buy and hold on to +1 and +2 implants will still be competing against players with full racks of +5's. So while it will slow down the gap a bit, it will continue to grow. Though a few million points of instant-train skills would be nice in a re-allocation, especially since I have a bit of time now to know better where to put them. That will actually further improve my situation against newer players.
But it's also not as big of an issue as people think it is. You can only put so many skill-points into certain areas before you reach a point of almost no more gain. New players get skills at a pretty rapid pace, just a few hours between finishing them up a lot of the time. But older players may wait 30+ days for another 2% of torpedo damage. Your first million points in gunnery does a heck of a lot more than the second million, and so forth. After a while, you don't improve the stuff you are doing very often, but instead you go off into different directions and do different things.
Then, don't forget that learning skills are much quicker these days after they reduced the requirements for advanced learning skills. That knocked a lot of time off of them. Plus, new players used to start at 50k points. Now they start at almost a million. You can have a 20 minute old character with mining 5!
|
Modrak Vseth
Veto. Academy Veto Corp
|
Posted - 2007.11.26 18:41:00 -
[10]
I disagree with this change because it's a strategic choice on the part of the player wether or not to train those skills. I only have a little over 6M SP myself but about 2 weeks ago I fought someone that was a couple of days older then me and he only had a little over 4M SP and it was painfully (to him) evident the benefit of having spent the time to train those learning skills. He probably got into a larger ship before me, but I still had the advantage.
|
|
SoftRevolution
|
Posted - 2007.11.26 18:42:00 -
[11]
Edited by: SoftRevolution on 26/11/2007 18:44:11 Learning skills suck.
It's basically a couple of weeks a new player isn't training anything fun and a couple of million ISK grind a new player isn't spending on anything entertaining. Really. It's one of the biggest turnoffs about the newbie game.
There is no real decision to be made re: learning them. It's straightforward maths that as soon as you've got more than a certain amount of days queued it becomes worthwhile training x skill to a particular level. EVE RELATED CONTENT |
CTec
|
Posted - 2007.11.26 18:44:00 -
[12]
The current method of training is required by all. So that makes it fair. The 2 months required to train a char up in learning skills is annoying but only because the loss of time. You have a choice to either grind a skill with low learning skills and take a very long time.... or not.
|
Xaen
Caldari Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2007.11.26 18:47:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Steppa The muse just struck me as I'm balancing my checkbook here and was pondering the pros and cons of starting up a new industrial character. Even as a four-year veteran of this game, I'm loath to do that because once I start him up, I've basically got to wait x number of days until his learns are up to a point where skills are quicker to train. This is one of the biggest dead horses that's been beaten on these forums, but I wonder if anyone has ever suggested doing away with the learning skills completely?
Obviously, they don't do anything but enable quicker training. Unlike other MMO's, none of your attributes are taken into account when doing anything that's done in the gameworld.
So, to level the playing field between absolutely new players and the old guard...remove them from the game.
1) Let everyone determine their starting attributes at character creation. Adjust so that it's possible to start out with what amounts to level IV basic learns and increase/decrease attributes into the advanced learn ranges through school choices or heritage choices. 2) Use implants to increase from there or include attribute-increasing storyline missions to further increase a character's attributes. 3) Allow current players to roll back skill points invested in learning skills to redistribute as they please on EXISTING SKILLS...or do it unrestricted at a 2:1 ratio. Or just allow us to do it in an unrestricted manner.
Again, just pondering.
I agree, and I'm a two year "vet".
Everything in EVE should be examined with the question, "What does this add to the game that makes it better?"
And what do learning skills add to the game? Two or three weeks.
And what do learning skills add to the game that makes it better? Nothing. So they should go. -- Support fixing the EVE UI | Suggest Jita fixes
|
JamnOne
Amarr
|
Posted - 2007.11.26 18:51:00 -
[14]
Just pretend for a second you are not a vet of this. Pretend you have no friends playing this game. Pretend this is your first MMO and now create a character.
The problem is when you create a character you don't know what to do with the attributes that you get. I understand your frustration. I don't like the learning skills either, but I am thankful they are there or my combat skills would kill time wise to learn them as I didn't know about attributes and how it affected my game play. ________________________
Originally by: CCP Prism X Hah! Vengeance is sweet!
|
Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
|
Posted - 2007.11.26 18:59:00 -
[15]
Only if I can re arrange all that 5 mil SP in learning to other skills. I have suffered thru my few months of learning skills so I don't see why 'new' players should get off from hook. I also started alt recently. doing learnings on alt is a lot easier than doing them on your main and first account.
|
insidion
Caldari Last of the Technocracy
|
Posted - 2007.11.26 19:17:00 -
[16]
I agree, frankly the existing learning skills are nothing but a ridiculous timesink right at the start of the game. How fun is that?
Originally by: Carniflex Only if I can re arrange all that 5 mil SP in learning to other skills. I have suffered thru my few months of learning skills so I don't see why 'new' players should get off from hook.
Yep, agree with this too. I have maxxed out learning skills (5,376,000 sp in learning alone) and would expect to be able to reinvest them fairly if learning were to be removed (which it should be). Most skills take too damn long to learn even WITH maxxed out learning. =P
|
prathe
Minmatar Omega Enterprises Mostly Harmless
|
Posted - 2007.11.26 19:27:00 -
[17]
i also created a new char in june and did the learn grind , i dont see the problem it sucks but thats life i would rather lose a months of train then spend longer time training once im done with them signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link to the image URL) - Jacques([email protected])
why dont you just tell me ? |
Karyuudo Tydraad
Caldari Whiskey Pete's Drycleaning Services The Acquisition
|
Posted - 2007.11.26 19:34:00 -
[18]
You know, I'd be happy if they just deleted all our learning skill SP and gave everyone +10 to every attribute. I poured millions of SP into them, and it was by far the dullest portion of the game. I've had friends that formed trial accounts but felt discouraged by how long it'd take them just to get to the point where they could train at the same rate as everyone else. I mean, granted I doubt they would have joined anyway with a mindset like that, but it's certainly not contributing to the allure of the game to new players. |
Xaen
Caldari Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2007.11.26 19:43:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Carniflex Only if I can re arrange all that 5 mil SP in learning to other skills. I have suffered thru my few months of learning skills so I don't see why 'new' players should get off from hook. I also started alt recently. doing learnings on alt is a lot easier than doing them on your main and first account.
Because discouraging new players is bad.
I'm perfectly happy giving newbies (and any new chars I might create) a boost. -- Support fixing the EVE UI | Suggest Jita fixes
|
Tra' Shaz
Gallente Ramdon Industries corporation
|
Posted - 2007.11.26 19:55:00 -
[20]
Originally by: JamnOne Just pretend for a second you are not a vet of this. Pretend you have no friends playing this game. Pretend this is your first MMO and now create a character.
The problem is when you create a character you don't know what to do with the attributes that you get. I understand your frustration. I don't like the learning skills either, but I am thankful they are there or my combat skills would kill time wise to learn them as I didn't know about attributes and how it affected my game play.
This. QFT.
You can bet the majority of new players train allsorts of skills that they later realise they won't use/want, taking away learning skills would only exasperate the problem. The month that it takes to get learning skills to a decent level can be used to learn about the game and find a direction that you think you might want to go in. Besides frigates are alot of fun. Tra' Shaz
RIC / Negotiator |
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2007.11.26 20:03:00 -
[21]
The whole "do away with learning skills" argument always enrages me to no end. The same as it enrages me when people insist "learning skills MUST be done". Those two types of people I classify as subclasses of one human group, namely "MORONS".
First off, a freaking HUGE concession was already made one year ago. Part of that huge concession was a new character starting at 800+k SP instead of the puny average 40-50k most people would get (getting around 300k SP was possible with some very specific bloodline/school/specialisation choices), and part of that initial skill package included one L4 attribute, one L2 attribute and L1 in the basic learning skill... as opposed to just one level in one attribute skill before. The second and most IMPORTANT part of the huge concession made was REDUCING the prerequisites of the advanced learning skills from L5 basic to L4 basic, hence reducing the time needed to get advanced learning skills to roughly 1/6 of previous required time !!!
You say "what good do learnings do", well, it separates the people able to think for themselves from the ones that are unable to do that, and just follow the bandwagon. If YOU want to WASTE 2-3 months training ALL learning skills up to L5 basic and L4/L5 advanced right from the start, be my guest, do it. Meanwhile, I would have stopped at L4 basic and L3/L4 advanced, spending less than 2 WEEKS doing it, getting almost the same training speed, and a couple of months of USEFUL skills trained, while you clutter your SP total with inefficient skill levels. There ARE reasons to train L5 in all learning skills and plug in +5 implants and so on and so forth, but doing that from the start is only for characters you don't plan on actively using any time soon.
So, STFU about it already. Nobody is FORCING you to train learnings, you're doing it to yourself. Oh, you mean, if you DON'T do it, in the long run, you will get behind ? Well, that's called a CHOICE, for a good reason. You CHOOSE what you want to do... short-term benefit, or long-term investment. The choice is enabled by HAVING the learning skills.
You are advocating removing a choice. This is so bad, I actually have no more words for it. C|S|I|N|x. |
Scilent Enigma
Minmatar Gerek Business Consortium
|
Posted - 2007.11.26 20:08:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Steppa This is one of the biggest dead horses that's been beaten on these forums, but I wonder if anyone has ever suggested doing away with the learning skills completely?
I suggested the same thing (getting rid of the learning skills and setting the attributes to +10) in the "Janitor for a Day" thread but I would be delusional if I thought anyone would actually care about it. I had the same line of reasoning you did but I didn't have the relocation of sp already spent.
I think your idea is more developed than the one I had, and it has a lot of merit. Learning skills is pointless for a trial but everyone who bothers to read up a bit on eve finds out that they are a "must" in order to compete in this game.
So I pitch my voice in for this idea, for whatever good or bad it might do.
/Sci
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2007.11.26 20:16:00 -
[23]
My 10+ mil SP PvP alt has roughly 820k SP in learning. That's UNDER two weeks worth of learning.
My main (this char, Akita), has 2.2 mil SP in learning out of almost 25 mil SP total. Would it have not been created back when you HAD to have L5 basics to get L1 advanceds, it propably still wouldn't have all L5 basics. I spent a LOT of time at just L4 basics, think my first advanced learning was only at around 3 mil SP total, or maybe higher.
Oh, and implants used to cost SHEDLOADS more. Now, you can easily get a +3 set and plug it on a fresh alt and not feel much of a loss. Back roughly 2 years ago, even a +2 set was an acheivement, and some +3s were awesome.
My main doesn't train significantly faster as my PvP alt, only a bit faster, roughly 10% faster at most on "relevant" (desired) skills on each of them. If you think spending 2 months to "compensate" for that training speed difference (i.e. plan ahead almost 2 YEARS), well, good for you. I know I won't do that for my alt. C|S|I|N|x. |
Jupiter Sun
|
Posted - 2007.11.26 20:21:00 -
[24]
I read that the devs wish they could remove the learning skills, only doing so would create a subscription nuking nerdrage ****storm.
I am kinda new, and it's kinda clear learning skills are not meant to be trained up all at once at the start, but over time increasing sp learn over a long period as you specialise in whatever. I feel it would be a huge mistake for me to train up all my learning skills right now, as frankly isk/experience/FUN > a slight skillpoint advantage in the long run.
I read some thread in the skills forum discussing it and it was kinda clear it was a slagging match between OCD min/maxing achuras and normal players.
|
SoftRevolution
|
Posted - 2007.11.26 20:27:00 -
[25]
Quote: used to
Quote: already
Weak sauce arguments. EVE RELATED CONTENT |
Thoran Karlien
N.U.R.S.E. New EVE Rising
|
Posted - 2007.11.26 20:32:00 -
[26]
My own opinion goes in a complete diffrent direction. I'd prefer to have more learning skills. Change a few of those 800K starting lp to some specialized training skills. A skill that improves skillpoint gain in a small field. Like Small Ship Specialist. If you learn any racial frig, small weapons, small T2 weapons or some of the elite frigs you will get 5 to 10 % more skill points per level. Basicly it should be faster to learn the skill to 4 if you train for two other races' ships and weapons. In about a year or so down the road we could get a new skill like that for cruiser. And no, even if we get that skill tomorrow, I won't need it anymore.
|
Big Monkey
DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2007.11.26 20:38:00 -
[27]
Learning skills allow a player to choose between instant gratification of useful skills now, or investing in learning skills for faster skillpoints later. I say leave them in.
|
000Hunter000
Gallente Magners Marauders
|
Posted - 2007.11.26 21:32:00 -
[28]
Obvious statement, i learned them so i think u should to, new people allready have it way too easy atm, 800k points from day 1, u now only have to learn the basic learning skills to L4 to start on the advanced ones and making isk in general is way way more easy then it used to be.
Took me several weeks to save up for a cruiser and months before i rolled out my first BS.
Call me a grumpy old vet but why should only the new people get a free handout? CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!! Magners is now recruiting, evemail me or Dagazbo ingame.
|
Ed Anger
Weekly World News
|
Posted - 2007.11.26 21:36:00 -
[29]
/signed, learning skills are a stupid waste of time.
|
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
|
Posted - 2007.11.26 21:37:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 26/11/2007 21:37:24 /signed off with learning skills. They are not new players friendly. Reimbursed with attribute points. :) --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria!
Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon.
Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |