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Gamesguy
Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.10.17 22:01:00 -
[211]
Edited by: Gamesguy on 17/10/2007 22:03:50 Edited by: Gamesguy on 17/10/2007 22:03:32
Originally by: Nicoli Voldkif
Either they both get a warp scram or neither do, because if your going on the fact that your in a gang, a mega can get an additional mid to work with. As was said before you cannot use the assumption of your gang will take care of it unless you apply it to both setups.
Whats the mega gonna do with that one mid? In reality in gangs the neutron plated mega setup doesnt change at all, they would still bring, point, web, mwd, and injector.
Quote: And while those ships keep similar damage on BSs when you start to target cruisers the ravens w/1TP are going to lose more DPS then the mega. In the end your not going to see any caldari pilots who trained another races short range gank ship go back to a siege raven for long.
The mega wont even be able to hit cruisers.
As for the new torp changes. WTF. I mean seriously, I might as well quit amarr and start training for caldari online. The ONLY benefit pulse lasers had was at the battleship level it had a nice 45km optimal, which was useful in medium sized engagements.
Now the raven outdamages the geddon and doesnt take cap to fire its guns, and can change damage types where as the geddon is stuck with EM. I might as well put that torp 5 to good use. You caldari pilots dont know how good you have it till you try amarr.
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.10.17 22:22:00 -
[212]
Originally by: Zyondor Edited by: Zyondor on 17/10/2007 19:55:28 SiSi Torp Stats for T1 and T2
Torp Stats
imho this looks completely aceptabl to me:) no real need for the 2nd tp so enough place to fit a web/scram or another lse:)
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Ztrain
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.10.17 22:59:00 -
[213]
Well we have another example of CCP's incompetance when it comes to game design shown here. So as I generally try to do I tied to look at the changes not as a burdon but an opertunity. Have found some side effects of this chage that I'm guessing CCP never looked at but will be wonderful.
With this change CCP has effectively removed from the game the only really good weapon with any DPS from taking down a cyno jammed Deathstar POS. Lack of long rang torps will effectively mean if you want to pound that cyno jammer, or the tower it self you ether have to sit right on top of the target, or use T2. To remain some what safe with beams, artillery, and hybrd you have to stay right outside the optimal making survivability doable but making DPS piratically non existent.
The Torp raven was the answer too this problem. Has enough rang hitting full power to do some damage and has the range to be some what defended. In 0oyz we put up a very effective defense with only a few of us meaning the guns vs a 100 ship fleet with 40BS in it. Due to the rang they had to stay from our guns they had only 2 guns not even to 50% shield by the time we had killed 8 of their BS. Effectively 20% of their before they withdrew.
The majority of their DPS was coming from the torp ravens I'm fairly sure. Now that those BS will have to have even less DPS, or come sit right on the POS shield. Ohh this is going to be ohhh so fun.
Thank you CCP for giving us a very nice boost to defender in POS warfare. Even though I'm willing to bet you guy's didn't have a clue about this side effect. Keep swinging the nurf bat yah never know what your gonna hit.
Z CCP (Producers of Slide Show Online) takin the fun out of EVE, one patch at a time. |
Nicoli Voldkif
Caelli-Merced INC. Gunboat Diplomacy
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Posted - 2007.10.17 23:15:00 -
[214]
Originally by: Gamesguy
Whats the mega gonna do with that one mid? In reality in gangs the neutron plated mega setup doesnt change at all, they would still bring, point, web, mwd, and injector.
The mega wont even be able to hit cruisers.
As for the new torp changes. WTF. I mean seriously, I might as well quit amarr and start training for caldari online. The ONLY benefit pulse lasers had was at the battleship level it had a nice 45km optimal, which was useful in medium sized engagements.
Now the raven outdamages the geddon and doesnt take cap to fire its guns, and can change damage types where as the geddon is stuck with EM. I might as well put that torp 5 to good use. You caldari pilots dont know how good you have it till you try amarr.
Mega can hit a webbed cruisers just fine, I've lost a few EWAR cruisers to them. That said I didn't say it didn't lose DPS its just that the DPS loss from torps is usually worse.
That said a RSD with lock time or Lock range depending on the target would work great. I fly a mega and can think of several useful things I could toss in the mid. That said if you want to make a comparison between mega and Raven fits things like being able to scramble is a key difference in any fit that will be playing around the 24km range. Also remember that the raven is far easier to hit when you start adding those shield extenders and Shield rigs.
When it comes down to it the raven is just not setup to be a up close fighter. With the new torp changes it just doesn't pull the way that you think it might. Mostly because there is a lot of conditions that are required to make it work.
By the way my normal PVP ships are either amarr or Gall if I can get freed up from EWAR duty in my scorp. -----------------------------------------------
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Miner Nine
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Posted - 2007.10.17 23:28:00 -
[215]
Originally by: Gamesguy Rabble Rabble
I'm sorry, do you actually believe what you're posting? Or are you posting cause you Amarr and happy to see someone else get shank? Cause your setups are horrible, you have the illusion that Caldari Torp boats are actually semi-fast and with high agility. Anyways, I thought the cool thing about Lasers were not having to carry ammo, no flight time, and they hurt. I also don't get why you keep trying to compair apples and oranges. Missles are not Guns or Lasers. Lasers are not Guns or Missles. Guns are not Lasers or Missles.
Now that we got that cleard up. Still think Torps should be left alone, but you know. Caldari having one ship good at Ratting was one ship too many. I really don't see people putting MWD and tackling gear on their Ravens or whatever to shoot torps. Might as well just put Smart bombs on at that point for PvP and if you're tackling while doing PvE something is horrible wrong.
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Dark Flare
Caldari Corpus PCG The State
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Posted - 2007.10.17 23:37:00 -
[216]
To everyone going "OMG THIS IS NERF IT IS TERRIBLE" please shush before the devs put it back.
This is the best thing that's happened to Caldari (and the Typhoon) in ages.
I mean ffs, you whine about being rubbish at PvP for years, and when the devs give you a buff you start complaining about it as a nerf?
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SexehGallente
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.10.18 00:23:00 -
[217]
Edited by: SexehGallente on 18/10/2007 00:23:50
Originally by: Dark Flare To everyone going "OMG THIS IS NERF IT IS TERRIBLE" please shush before the devs put it back.
This is the best thing that's happened to Caldari (and the Typhoon) in ages.
I mean ffs, you whine about being rubbish at PvP for years, and when the devs give you a buff you start complaining about it as a nerf?
Torp range/dmg had nothing to do with it. It's the fact you have to gang and still your not better then any other ship whos got a gang.
Also we needed a overall missile velocity increase/flight time decrease to get dps done faster in fleets.
That was bout it... besides a few odd ships which every race has atleast one of those.
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Incantare
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2007.10.18 00:26:00 -
[218]
I'm really happy with the changes now that the explosion radius has been lowered.
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Gamesguy
Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.10.18 00:36:00 -
[219]
Originally by: Nicoli Voldkif
Mega can hit a webbed cruisers just fine, I've lost a few EWAR cruisers to them. That said I didn't say it didn't lose DPS its just that the DPS loss from torps is usually worse.
How are you gonna web a cruiser with a mega? The cruiser would have to be brain dead to get in web range.
Quote: That said a RSD with lock time or Lock range depending on the target would work great. I fly a mega and can think of several useful things I could toss in the mid. That said if you want to make a comparison between mega and
RSD doesnt do **** when you have the sig radius of a moon with the mwd on. So instead of locking in 1.5 seconds the raven will lock in 2.5 seconds.
Quote: Raven fits things like being able to scramble is a key difference in any fit that will be playing around the 24km range. Also remember that the raven is far easier to hit when you start adding those shield extenders and Shield rigs.
When it comes down to it the raven is just not setup to be a up close fighter. With the new torp changes it just doesn't pull the way that you think it might. Mostly because there is a lot of conditions that are required to make it work.
It works fine. The new raven is more agile and faster than the plated mega, and basically replaces amarr for the mid range dps niche, at least minnie bs are somewhat faster than caldari.
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Gamesguy
Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.10.18 00:37:00 -
[220]
Originally by: Miner Nine
Originally by: Gamesguy Rabble Rabble
I'm sorry, do you actually believe what you're posting? Or are you posting cause you Amarr and happy to see someone else get shank? Cause your setups are horrible, you have the illusion that Caldari Torp boats are actually semi-fast and with high agility. Anyways, I thought the cool thing about Lasers were not having to carry ammo, no flight time, and they hurt. I also don't get why you keep trying to compair apples and oranges. Missles are not Guns or Lasers. Lasers are not Guns or Missles. Guns are not Lasers or Missles.
Now that we got that cleard up. Still think Torps should be left alone, but you know. Caldari having one ship good at Ratting was one ship too many. I really don't see people putting MWD and tackling gear on their Ravens or whatever to shoot torps. Might as well just put Smart bombs on at that point for PvP and if you're tackling while doing PvE something is horrible wrong.
I'm sorry but do you pvp? Please learn to play before you comment. Because you have no idea wtf you're talking about. At 30km range the new torpedos might as well have no flight time, cause the difference between that and 9 second flight time is pretty ******* small.
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Nicoli Voldkif
Caelli-Merced INC. Gunboat Diplomacy
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Posted - 2007.10.18 01:45:00 -
[221]
Originally by: Gamesguy How are you gonna web a cruiser with a mega? The cruiser would have to be brain dead to get in web range.
How many Cruiser fits use a MWD? not every cruiser in the game fits a MWD.
Originally by: Gamesguy RSD doesnt do **** when you have the sig radius of a moon with the mwd on. So instead of locking in 1.5 seconds the raven will lock in 2.5 seconds.
Do I really need to explain the advantages of cutting lock range in half or how to coast out of MWD as you cut under lock range. While the RSD may not help you the best in some circumstances it WILL help the gang. It doesn't even have to go on the primary. put it on a interceptor and you can bring them closer to web range or you can shut an Ewar ship from locking your targets. Since it was being used to in a gang setup hence no warp scram you can do use some gang oriented mods.
Originally by: Gamesguy It works fine. The new raven is more agile and faster than the plated mega, and basically replaces amarr for the mid range dps niche, at least minnie bs are somewhat faster than caldari.
I wouldn't call 27km max effective range as cutting in on the Pulses medium range bit. Note that the math gives you a longer range then happens in reality because of curved flight paths and missile acceleration. Amarr is still safe in the close range battles especially with a much more reasonable time to swap out crytals in the middle of combat. -----------------------------------------------
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Icome4u
Caldari Dark and Light inc. D-L
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Posted - 2007.10.18 02:05:00 -
[222]
Originally by: Nicoli Voldkif
Originally by: Gamesguy How are you gonna web a cruiser with a mega? The cruiser would have to be brain dead to get in web range.
How many Cruiser fits use a MWD? not every cruiser in the game fits a MWD.
True! The dead one's don't fit MWD :) ______
Originally by: Vyger If I lose connection while walking around a station will my avatar run off in a random direction and go hide in a corner?
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bldyannoyed
Un4seen Development
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Posted - 2007.10.18 02:05:00 -
[223]
It all looked great TBH.
Nice damage boost, explosion radius increase hurt but there ways round it.
And you could still use Jav's for some hefty DPS at 50-60km.
And you could still get by with them for PvE if you were so inclined.
Now Javs are ****** anyone whos got a torp ship might as well throw it in the bin cos you're fighting now at really close range where you will get absolutely ******* BBQ'd.
And you cant use em for PvE either.
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Miner Nine
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Posted - 2007.10.18 02:10:00 -
[224]
Originally by: Gamesguy I'm sorry but do you pvp? Please learn to play before you comment. Because you have no idea wtf you're talking about. At 30km range the new torpedos might as well have no flight time, cause the difference between that and 9 second flight time is pretty ******* small.
Woah, no reason to have a potty mouth just cause you're kinda way off when it comes to PvPing with torps. I mean, for you to still not admit that the T1 torps will be utter useless. Both for PvP and PvE, is crazy. Do you even know what we're talking about in this thread?
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Danjira Ryuujin
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Posted - 2007.10.18 02:57:00 -
[225]
Edited by: Danjira Ryuujin on 18/10/2007 03:00:23
Originally by: Miner Nine
Originally by: Gamesguy I'm sorry but do you pvp? Please learn to play before you comment. Because you have no idea wtf you're talking about. At 30km range the new torpedos might as well have no flight time, cause the difference between that and 9 second flight time is pretty ******* small.
Woah, no reason to have a potty mouth just cause you're kinda way off when it comes to PvPing with torps. I mean, for you to still not admit that the T1 torps will be utter useless. Both for PvP and PvE, is crazy. Do you even know what we're talking about in this thread?
I agree with gamesguy for once. The flight time at that range is negligible. Torpedos as they stand with these changes are awesome for pvp.
Rage torps seem pretty useless with faction ammo available though.
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Cythrawl
Caldari Central Defiance
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Posted - 2007.10.18 03:04:00 -
[226]
Originally by: Miner Nine
Originally by: Gamesguy I'm sorry but do you pvp? Please learn to play before you comment. Because you have no idea wtf you're talking about. At 30km range the new torpedos might as well have no flight time, cause the difference between that and 9 second flight time is pretty ******* small.
Woah, no reason to have a potty mouth just cause you're kinda way off when it comes to PvPing with torps. I mean, for you to still not admit that the T1 torps will be utter useless. Both for PvP and PvE, is crazy. Do you even know what we're talking about in this thread?
NOT SO. 0.0 pvp in a raven just went from easy mod to super easy mode(if you have enough sp).
Current 0.0 Raven Setup(non-cloaker)
Highs: 6x Arby Siege Launchers 1x Tractor beam(I don't salvage) 1x Drone Link augment(free high slot that could be a cloak but better to give your drones more range)
Mids: 1x 100mn mwd I 1x x-large shield booster II 3x rat-specific hardeners 1x target painter
Lows: 2x BCU II 2x PDU II 1x Co-pro II
Rigs: I'd suggest 3x CC rigs. Can make back the cost of them in a day easy and they just turn the setup into cake. Don't need em if you don't want.
Drones: 1x Berserker SW-900(very important) 5x med drones of whatever you want
Got the following skills to translate to torp range: Missile bombardment 4 Missile projection 4 Caldari bs 4
Gives me about a 24k window in which to hit things.
Most of the time you'll jump into a belt and come out within 10k-30k of the rats. Just pulse the mwd once to close in on the big ones, start laying on fire to gain aggro, launch your drones, the webber one to send to hold your main target/secondary target/one thats trying to move off. Other 4 med drones can take out the smaller targets.
This is viable until we see what the bandwidth on the raven is. Probably be 50 points so it'll probably go from 1 heavy web and 4 medium to 1 heavy web and 5 lights. Time will tell.
I can tell you this was probably the fastest I've ratted in a raven. Granted, you'll need good 0.0 to make you feel like you're making any money, but it damn well is viable, and profitable. Since they worked the explosion radius back down to 450, its good stuff.
You won't be using this setup in missions. Have to look to a cruise raven for that.
.:.
Originally by: Krazy Bitsch
Originally by: Virtuality In before the first troll.
i do believe you are too late for this.... |
Cythrawl
Caldari Central Defiance
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Posted - 2007.10.18 03:06:00 -
[227]
Edited by: Cythrawl on 18/10/2007 03:06:17 Stupid double post
.:.
Originally by: Krazy Bitsch
Originally by: Virtuality In before the first troll.
i do believe you are too late for this.... |
bldyannoyed
Un4seen Development
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Posted - 2007.10.18 03:10:00 -
[228]
Ratting is all well and good, but you can rat in a cruiser so who the hell cares.
As far as missions/deadspace plexs goes this is an out and out nerf.
Torpedos can no longer be used as they simply cannot get the range, and you cant get a fast enough setup with a good enought ank.
So yeah, you have to use cruise. Which suck.
And as far as PvP, youve got some extra dps, but its not gonna make a close range raven a good ship.
Not in a million years.
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Gamesguy
Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.10.18 03:23:00 -
[229]
Originally by: bldyannoyed Ratting is all well and good, but you can rat in a cruiser so who the hell cares.
As far as missions/deadspace plexs goes this is an out and out nerf.
Torpedos can no longer be used as they simply cannot get the range, and you cant get a fast enough setup with a good enought ank.
So yeah, you have to use cruise. Which suck.
This is different from every other race how?
Quote: And as far as PvP, youve got some extra dps, but its not gonna make a close range raven a good ship.
Not in a million years.
Bull****. I posted a perfectly good gank raven setup that can compete with the neutron gank mega. Some people are just too stupid to think outside of the "must fit xl shield boost" mentality.
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bldyannoyed
Un4seen Development
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Posted - 2007.10.18 03:25:00 -
[230]
You posted a " Perfectly good " setup that cant tackle.
Ergo its great untill the other guy decides hes had enough and warps off.
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UnitedStatesOfAmerica
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Posted - 2007.10.18 03:36:00 -
[231]
Originally by: bldyannoyed Ratting is all well and good, but you can rat in a cruiser so who the hell cares. As far as missions/deadspace plexs goes this is an out and out nerf.
Torpedos can no longer be used as they simply cannot get the range, and you cant get a fast enough setup with a good enought ank. So yeah, you have to use cruise. Which suck. And as far as PvP, youve got some extra dps, but its not gonna make a close range raven a good ship. Not in a million years.
I only care cause it makes my siege launcher worthless.
Gamesguy, your gank Raven sucks. Try it on SiSi, seriously.
Anyways, I guess my Torp skillpoints are going be worthless. Time to get my cruise up. At least it only like a week or so of training. Still, I'm going miss my torps.
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Gamesguy
Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.10.18 03:37:00 -
[232]
Originally by: bldyannoyed You posted a " Perfectly good " setup that cant tackle.
Ergo its great untill the other guy decides hes had enough and warps off.
Its called a gang setup. I dont put a point on my geddon either, cause its a GANG ship.
In addition, with the new torp changes you can drop the painter for a point, fit 1 painter drone.
Got anymore idiotic comments?
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Gamesguy
Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.10.18 03:38:00 -
[233]
Originally by: UnitedStatesOfAmerica
Originally by: bldyannoyed Ratting is all well and good, but you can rat in a cruiser so who the hell cares. As far as missions/deadspace plexs goes this is an out and out nerf.
Torpedos can no longer be used as they simply cannot get the range, and you cant get a fast enough setup with a good enought ank. So yeah, you have to use cruise. Which suck. And as far as PvP, youve got some extra dps, but its not gonna make a close range raven a good ship. Not in a million years.
I only care cause it makes my siege launcher worthless.
Gamesguy, your gank Raven sucks. Try it on SiSi, seriously.
Anyways, I guess my Torp skillpoints are going be worthless. Time to get my cruise up. At least it only like a week or so of training. Still, I'm going miss my torps.
I have, I raped a mega easilly. I was outdamaging him and I started hitting earlier.
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bldyannoyed
Un4seen Development
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Posted - 2007.10.18 03:43:00 -
[234]
Edited by: bldyannoyed on 18/10/2007 03:44:17
Originally by: Gamesguy
Originally by: bldyannoyed You posted a " Perfectly good " setup that cant tackle.
Ergo its great untill the other guy decides hes had enough and warps off.
Its called a gang setup. I dont put a point on my geddon either, cause its a GANG ship.
In addition, with the new torp changes you can drop the painter for a point, fit 1 painter drone.
Got anymore idiotic comments?
So it's a gang setup?
So why half a tackle?
Why not fit 6 siege II, 100MN MWD II, TP II, 2x LSE II, 2x Invuln II, 3x BCU II, DCU II, PDS II, 3x Field Extender?
Same damage, more speed, stronger tank, doesnt need a PG implant, still cant tackle.
EDIT: And you didnt *****anything if you couldnt tackle it. At best your target was charitable and let you kill them.
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Gamesguy
Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.10.18 04:17:00 -
[235]
Originally by: bldyannoyed
So it's a gang setup?
So why half a tackle?
Why not fit 6 siege II, 100MN MWD II, TP II, 2x LSE II, 2x Invuln II, 3x BCU II, DCU II, PDS II, 3x Field Extender?
Same damage, more speed, stronger tank, doesnt need a PG implant, still cant tackle.
Because outside a huginn/rapier(which you dont always have), tackler in web range=dead tackler. Inties can get points on easy enough, but dont expect a web against competent opponents.
Quote: EDIT: And you didnt *****anything if you couldnt tackle it. At best your target was charitable and let you kill them.
It was sisi. Not to mention you can drop the painter for a point with the new changes.
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Verlaine Glariant
The Seventh Ring YouWhat
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Posted - 2007.10.18 05:25:00 -
[236]
Originally by: Gorion Wassenar pics or STFU!
Verlaine Glariant. Tactical Weapons Specialist.
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2007.10.18 06:06:00 -
[237]
Javelin range (now in line with range of other torps) makes torps unsuitable for PvE.
It is ofc possible to use afterburners (in deadspace), but they are not fast enough to get into range and thus even with torps having higher base dps cruise missiles will be better for missions. Not the end of world ofc. With the new hardwires and faction ammo cruise missiles will be still better than old torps before rev 2.
Time to start training for cruise missiles on my wingman alt for missions I guess.
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Damned Force
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Posted - 2007.10.18 07:51:00 -
[238]
Edited by: Damned Force on 18/10/2007 07:54:35 The change is now almost perfect. Just explo radius put back on 400m and give back a little range to javelins. just +10-20%(in velocity not flight time) tbh the other missiles could be changed too to get down the flight time and up the speed(heavy's and cruise missiles)
Other change thing: If u use t2 ammo by missiles u get cap rech penalty or ship veloc penalty. Both affecting ship stats, so if u fit all launchers u get x times the penalty. By guns u get in some case "just" tracking penalty (i know thats hurts really) and thats affecting the launcher which use the ammo. Pls change this on missiles!
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Jackie Fisher
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Posted - 2007.10.18 08:58:00 -
[239]
So Torps will have the same range as HAMs? A little odd for the battleship sized weapon not to out range its cruiser equivalent.
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UnitedStatesOfAmerica
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Posted - 2007.10.18 10:21:00 -
[240]
Originally by: Damned Force Edited by: Damned Force on 18/10/2007 07:54:35 The change is now almost perfect.
You seriously think 9km for t1 torps with no support skills is perfect? Might as well change Siege launchers to Sling shots
Going off of this infomation http://www.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/614/61490829b825ef4008c8be0bdead17eff3b92f.jpg
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