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Joshua Aivoras
Tech IV Industries Pandorum Invictus
187
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Posted - 2012.01.23 04:45:00 -
[31] - Quote
Well, the way I understand Hulkageddon, it kills alot of botting barges. Sure actual players get ganked too, but if your aware of Hulkageddon and mine anyway, you deserve to be ganked. |
Skydell
Space Mermaids
115
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Posted - 2012.01.23 04:51:00 -
[32] - Quote
CCP won't police the game. Complain untill your head falls off, they still won't.
On the "bright" side you can cheat too. The records will show nothing. |
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Ponies for the Ethical Treatment of Asteroids
878
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Posted - 2012.01.23 05:05:00 -
[33] - Quote
Artist rendition of a miner and an incursion bear |
Hainnz
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
61
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Posted - 2012.01.23 05:10:00 -
[34] - Quote
If I can be arsed, I try to do some mining during hulkaggedon to see if I get any bites. Never have. It's way over-hyped imo. |
Tore Vest
Vikinghall
151
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Posted - 2012.01.23 05:46:00 -
[35] - Quote
I am all for popping botters and so on..... But.. Ganking a two months old noobs first retriver... |
Lady Spank
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1180
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Posted - 2012.01.23 05:56:00 -
[36] - Quote
Hulks do not belong in high sec, thus their removal is politically motivated. (a¦á_a¦â) ~ http://getoutnastyface.blogspot.com/ ~ (a¦á_a¦â) |
Aggressive Nutmeg
95
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Posted - 2012.01.23 05:57:00 -
[37] - Quote
Please hurry up and announce the next Hulkageddon. And let me know the hotspots!
There is no incentive for me to dust off my old Hulk for a spot of mining. Mining is a complete waste of time in itself.
But if I've a decent chance of collecting some hilarious killmails from failed suicide gankers, I'm in! Never make eye contact with someone while eating a banana. |
Tore Vest
Vikinghall
151
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Posted - 2012.01.23 05:59:00 -
[38] - Quote
Lady Spank wrote:Hulks do not belong in high sec, thus their removal is politically motivated.
That would be the end of Hulkageddon... Why will you end Hulkageddon ?
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Henry Haphorn
Aliastra Gallente Federation
169
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Posted - 2012.01.23 06:01:00 -
[39] - Quote
@OP
The definition of griefing appears to have changed since the last time the EULA was updated (which was how long ago?). Today's current understanding of griefing, at least from what I have gathered during the 3+ years I have been around and from what a few GMs have mentioned in the past, is this:
Griefing: verb - the act of constantly harassing a player in Eve Online, especially the same player, for long periods of time for the sole purpose of making them emotionally distressed to the point in which the player could quit the game altogether. The griefer gains nothing in return from this act.
Hulkageddon is not griefing because it is a public event that is announced ahead of time (sometimes more than a month ahead of time) so that potential victims can prepare. Awards are also given to the best gankers and these awards can help subsidize the expense of ganking. If the potential victim ignores the warnings (large spike in local in an isolated system, gank warning posted on local chat, warnings posted on npc corp chats, the fact that you just saw a mining ship next to you explode, etc.) then that potential victim is now an actual victim.
Hulkageddon is also used to manipulate the regional mineral markets by destroying the primary source of the minerals entering the market (miners). With less minerals entering the market and with demand for gank-capable ships rising, the mineral prices will somewhat rise just high enough to potentially attract more miners to take advantage of the price hike. More miners = more targets. Of course, there has been no substantial evidence that Hulkadeggon helped increase the prices significantly, so I'm just speculating here.
Even if Hulkageddon is over or hasn't started yet, suicide ganking may not count as griefing if it is only used for the following reasons:
1. Claim an asteroid or ice belt to yourself by forcing the competing miners to move to another system or belt.
2. Trying to manipulate or corner the local or regional market through ganking. In this case, some miners will be spared if the ganker(s) is selective enough.
3. If the ganker is only after that faction module you have fitted. Experienced miners who have survived ganks before have learned to never, NEVER fit faction mods on their barge/exhumer. It will just attract gankers looking for faction drops in your wrecked ship. These drops are then sold on the market for ISK.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4501
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Posted - 2012.01.23 06:03:00 -
[40] - Quote
We've already had this discussion.
TL;DR: Hulkageddon does not keep people from playing the game and does not target individuals. They target activities and ships, and do it for gain. Fulfilling just one of those would be enough to keep it from being griefing. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
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Jacob Stiller
The Scope Gallente Federation
1083
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Posted - 2012.01.23 06:14:00 -
[41] - Quote
IIRC, the sponsor, Helicity Boson, is a Hulk manufacturer. He in turn offers prizes/bounties for killing hulks. Hence, all of the participants are in it for gain. Corrupt, for sure, but doesn't qualify as griefing. |
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
155
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Posted - 2012.01.23 08:59:00 -
[42] - Quote
Atticus Fynch wrote:
OK, so what is the "gain" for the pilots blowing up the Hulks? If you dont profit in any way (based on the above defintion) you are griefing. Especially if you consider that Hulks are not war ships of any kind. Considering that Hulks are also the most expensive of the Exhumer class, that underscores the grief definition even more.
Pilots blowing up Hulks gain by selling new Hulks, or selling their stash of minerals at a better price, or getting competition to rage quit.
Or just having fun, which is a kind a profit in any game.
The rules against griefing covers when one specific user is being harassed no matter what she or he do.
Getting blown up in a repeatable fashion while doing the same thing over and over again in the same way, doesn't count for that.
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Grumpy Owly
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
83
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Posted - 2012.01.23 09:14:00 -
[43] - Quote
Hulkageddon is just an excuse for null sec control freaks to punish High sec. Its a form of area war. And I make this claim purely on the assumption that the majority of indistrial targets will be operating in High sec.
Anybody who actively takes part are simply cowards however as they operate under the safety of a broken player policing bounty system. So opportunites of retribution are limited, whilst they simply attack soft targets.
In the meantime, prices go up as a result of the supply and demand imbalance from all the chaos and refocus of production due to the increased carnage and need to produce both mining and griefer losses. And then the griefers complain that its other things like incursions or another ficticious reason as to why prices are then a problem to them. Rather than reaslising that as they both dissalusion industrialists and destory their infrastructure it will ultimately impact them in the market.
Of course people will say that there are short term profiteering opportunites to be made by industrialists to supply the hulkageddon machine, but ignore the long term consequences of production focus and price altering as a result of the event.
Since all those wasted minerals could have been invested solely into more focussed PvP materials of value rather than just wanten destruction overall. Where the griefers will be calculating that they will be doing most of the damage to the industrial base.
In the meantime, the null sec mafia types behind this event are laughing at the gullible high seccers slowly "shitting" in their own garden.
"All griefers are lazy cowards with the current climate of broken player policing systems." |
Jacob Stiller
The Scope Gallente Federation
1083
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Posted - 2012.01.23 09:18:00 -
[44] - Quote
Well, you certainly live up to your name. |
Grumpy Owly
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
83
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Posted - 2012.01.23 09:20:00 -
[45] - Quote
Jacob Stiller wrote:Well, you certainly live up to your name.
Yes, Owls can be quite wise cant they.
"All griefers are lazy cowards with the current climate of broken player policing systems." |
Serge Bastana
GWA Corp
26
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Posted - 2012.01.23 09:26:00 -
[46] - Quote
Grumpy Owly wrote:Jacob Stiller wrote:Well, you certainly live up to your name. Yes, Owls can be quite wise cant they.
Actually I think you'd suit the name Parus major |
Vyl Vit
Cambio Enterprises
253
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Posted - 2012.01.23 09:33:00 -
[47] - Quote
Say two or three guys hung out in one system and spanked one guy in his hulk time after time. No matter what, they'd thump the guy's new hulk and do essentially nothing but that. The poor hulkster could probably make a case for being griefed. The whole purpose of the three having to be no more than to cause heartache to the one. No other discernable purpose can be imagined from that.
Now, take all the heroes in EvE who can't get a game up in null or lo sec out of sheer boredom deciding they'll just continuously gank any hulkster at all. Not just one over and over, unless perhaps he/she's rather unlucky, but all of them all at once as far as the eye can see. Not one specific hulkster can really claim a continuous victimization. Not one ganker can be accused of continually victimizing one player - no apparent grounds for griefing in the classic sense of the word.
HOWEVER (big however here), it is obvious (especially to the ones doing it AND CCP) the idea behind Hulkageddon (other than to get faceroll time in for the gankers who're pathetically bored with their method of play) is to victimize miners as a class...or group of similar individuals. This is in all honesty the equivilent of an individual class, and those who deny it are just behing DISHONEST about it, victimizing another individual class, and the grieving rule can be applied to Hulkageddon if the management so desired to extend it to such.
Yet, they don't and let me tell you why. In CCP's convoluted view of EVE they want: Combat/destruction/replacement of destroyed from the market/combat/destruction/replacement of destroyed from the market...ta da ta da....EVE marches on. SO, they're not about to stop it. It fits into their tiny definition.
Now, there is a slip of reason and logic on which CCP can hang this rather myopic vision of theirs about Hulkageddon. And, it's difficult to argue against. IF miners were taking advantage of the full array of mechanics the game offers, nobody could Hulkageddon them, or at least not at such a minimal cost that the gankers suffer now.
a. Group up. That's why there's corps and alliances. United we stand. Divided we fall. Miners can't really excuse the fact they solo and don't bother to respond to the threat by organizing.
b. A mining detail without security is not a mining detail. It's a stroll up the primrose path. Yes, it takes people and resources to do it. Properly guarded mining fleets with a plan of action which includes lookouts, response teams and retreat procedures for the mining vessels are not only doable, but hey. It's just something that begs to be done in the face of Hulkageddon.
c. Hardcore soloers must accept this Hulkageddon as the cost of doing business in the fashion that they do in this environment. No ifs, ands or buts about it.
Now, personally, I don't support the idea of Hulkageddon. I never liked the idea of ganging up on someone unless there's an active war dec involved and the someone is foolish enough to be caught alone. That's the breaks. I also don't agree with attacking things that have no hope for defense. You can't even try to claim that's challenging, and if it's your kind of fun, you need help. (I can refer you to a therapist. You probably have other issues.) But, regardless of my, or anyone else's personal opinions about it, the dynamics of the situation being what they are, it's a reality one must learn to accept, adapt to, or....
RESPOND TO (besides whining about it in forums).
Vote for me for CSM. I'm the only one who can type this fast and appear to have something to say. Anyone with any sense has already left town. |
Grumpy Owly
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
83
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Posted - 2012.01.23 09:44:00 -
[48] - Quote
Vyl Vit wrote:
a. Group up. That's why there's corps and alliances. United we stand. Divided we fall. Miners can't really excuse the fact they solo and don't bother to respond to the threat by organizing.
FYI: Griefer Geddon 2.0, for the really "kewl" kids who want to shoot at things that might shoot back.
and ...
Quote: Vote for me for CSM. I'm the only one who can type this fast and appear to have something to say.
Please do stand as I'm looking for an alternative to the current council that is at least objective to see both sides. Impartiality and holistic approach for the player base being a strong quality for any candidate in my view.
"All griefers are lazy cowards with the current climate of broken player policing systems." |
Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
221
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Posted - 2012.01.23 09:52:00 -
[49] - Quote
Basically as CCP' griefing rules make no apparent sense.
Lets take the can flipping thing as an example.
Do it in a starter system it's griefing, do it anywhere else it's not.
How does that work it either IS griefing or it ISN'T the age of the 'victim' is irrelevant.
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |
ariana ailith
Aribar Conglomerate
39
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Posted - 2012.01.23 10:03:00 -
[50] - Quote
anyone killing my orca or hulk, or makes it his/her business of doing so (ganking, hulkageddon) takes away the fun out of my experience.
Thus you could interpret CCP's rules easily in a way that hulkageddon and ganking is griefing.
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pussnheels
Vintage heavy industries
302
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Posted - 2012.01.23 10:10:00 -
[51] - Quote
Killstealing wrote:be honest if your cash flow consists of 12m/h highsec mining you're just a waste of space anyway.
OOH look another arrogant idiot who thinks everyone should play this game his way and no other way I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire |
Lexmana
Imperial Stout
170
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Posted - 2012.01.23 10:10:00 -
[52] - Quote
ariana ailith wrote:anyone killing my orca or hulk, or makes it his/her business of doing so (ganking, hulkageddon) takes away the fun out of my experience.
Thus you could interpret CCP's rules easily in a way that hulkageddon and ganking is griefing.
You whining on the forum takes away my fun. Thus, you are a griefer. |
Vyl Vit
Cambio Enterprises
255
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Posted - 2012.01.23 10:19:00 -
[53] - Quote
Lexmana wrote:ariana ailith wrote:anyone killing my orca or hulk, or makes it his/her business of doing so (ganking, hulkageddon) takes away the fun out of my experience.
Thus you could interpret CCP's rules easily in a way that hulkageddon and ganking is griefing.
You whining on the forum takes away my fun. Thus, you are a griefer. Poor baby. Have a hanky.
Anyone with any sense has already left town. |
W1rlW1nd
The Scope Gallente Federation
17
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Posted - 2012.01.23 10:20:00 -
[54] - Quote
ariana ailith wrote:anyone killing my orca or hulk, or makes it his/her business of doing so (ganking, hulkageddon) takes away the fun out of my experience.
Thus you could interpret CCP's rules easily in a way that hulkageddon and ganking is griefing.
If that were the merest definition of griefing, then every time someone raised the price of an item you like to buy, or -1 isk lowered the price of an item you want to sell, that would be griefing.
Competition of any kind against you as a player would not be allowed.
On the other hand, for a game designed around "blowing up other people's ships without permission", there is nothing about Hulkageddon that should be considered griefing at all. If you cannot tolerate getting blown up without permission, then play some other game.
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baltec1
473
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Posted - 2012.01.23 10:39:00 -
[55] - Quote
Professor Alphane wrote:Basically as CCP' griefing rules make no apparent sense.
Lets take the can flipping thing as an example.
Do it in a starter system it's griefing, do it anywhere else it's not.
How does that work it either IS griefing or it ISN'T the age of the 'victim' is irrelevant.
It is very relevant as there is nothing at all to gain from killing that new player. |
Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
221
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Posted - 2012.01.23 10:48:00 -
[56] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Professor Alphane wrote:Basically as CCP' griefing rules make no apparent sense.
Lets take the can flipping thing as an example.
Do it in a starter system it's griefing, do it anywhere else it's not.
How does that work it either IS griefing or it ISN'T the age of the 'victim' is irrelevant. It is very relevant as there is nothing at all to gain from killing that new player.
New player moves 1 system now legal still no reason to kill player
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4509
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Posted - 2012.01.23 11:47:00 -
[57] - Quote
Vyl Vit wrote:Say two or three guys hung out in one system and spanked one guy in his hulk time after time. No matter what, they'd thump the guy's new hulk and do essentially nothing but that. The poor hulkster could probably make a case for being griefed. The whole purpose of the three having to be no more than to cause heartache to the one. No other discernable purpose can be imagined from that. ...except that it's quite easy to think of reasons why they'd do that, and that the one guy doesn't have a particularly strong case if he keeps dying in the exact same spot all the time.
Did he change systems? Did he try something other than mining? Was he the only miner in the system being ganked? Did he try to bribe the gankers off? etc. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Hicksimus
Xion Limited
89
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Posted - 2012.01.23 11:58:00 -
[58] - Quote
How is this thread not considered griefing?
Anyway this is EvE and the very best you can hope for is CCP's trademark comment. It's not griefing, it's game mechanics. Things I have realized from the EvE forums: Many people beleive cost means money and only money |
seany1212
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
71
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Posted - 2012.01.23 11:58:00 -
[59] - Quote
Mars Theran wrote:Griefing in EVE is limited to harrassment based on race and gender for the most part. Hulkageddon doesn't play any part in that, so it is not considered griefing.
Basically, it's very hard to define one situation vs. another as griefing, unless there is a great deal of personal harrassment involved. Continually targeting one person in game, calling them names, podding them, baiting them, using racial or sexist slurs or jargon, or comments regarding the sexuality of the person, and doing this consistently over time is harrassment.
Any basic racial slur or jargon, homopathic or hateful treatment, and/or sexist treatment is generally grounds for a temporary ban by itself. I've seen plenty that was never prevented of course, and still do from time to time. Of course, I never reported it myself, as I was just passing through. Honestly, I expect the person being treated such to do so; and spamming the GMs with multiple reports on the same thing is sort of silly.
If they don't, then that is unfortunate. If someone else in system that sees a lot more than I do doesn't, then that is even more unfortunate. The fact that I don't, as someone who spends less than a minute passing through, and doesn't usually notice until a few systems away, is really just incidental. I'm not really into policing these things anyway; though I might if I thought there was a need.
Honestly, what I've seen could usually just be disregarded by anyone, including the person subject to it. If it's a regular thing, however, then it should be dealt with and probably is.
I disregard **** all the time, and it never does more to me than mild or short term anger for the most part. Sometimes it's more than that, such as a lasting irritation or feeling particularly aggressive towards like-minded individuals.
What bothers me, is the bs that you never hear about, but affects you even months later, if not years later. That happens to, and nobody ever tells you about it; they just sort of expect you to know. They have a grudge, that's fine; but often they meta-game that grudge secretly to other players and create some bs blacklist on you.
What it is, you'll never know; but you will be affected by it.
I'm sure my presence here on the forums, and my stated opinions; have resulted with me being on a number of these bs blacklists. It has nothing to do with character, integrity, or honesty in most cases; this is EVE, and the majority of the playerbase couldn't care less about that. It's usually just that they have a different opinion than you, and can't stand that fact; even more so, if you won't agree with them or conced to their judgement, and/or aren't afraid to say it or challenge them.
This is as best explanation on griefing as any. |
Vyl Vit
Cambio Enterprises
258
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Posted - 2012.01.23 12:02:00 -
[60] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Vyl Vit wrote:Say two or three guys hung out in one system and spanked one guy in his hulk time after time. No matter what, they'd thump the guy's new hulk and do essentially nothing but that. The poor hulkster could probably make a case for being griefed. The whole purpose of the three having to be no more than to cause heartache to the one. No other discernable purpose can be imagined from that. ...except that it's quite easy to think of reasons why they'd do that, and that the one guy doesn't have a particularly strong case if he keeps dying in the exact same spot all the time. Did he change systems? Did he try something other than mining? Was he the only miner in the system being ganked? Did he try to bribe the gankers off? etc. You're grabbing at straws. Anyone with any sense has already left town. |
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