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Anon Forumalt
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Posted - 2007.10.03 05:12:00 -
[1]
Torpedo Specialization prereqs: Torpedoes V (obviously) Missile Launcher Operation IV Standard Missiles III (prereq for Heavy Missiles) Heavy Missiles III (prereq for Torpedoes)
Large Artillery Specialization prereqs: Large Projectile Turret V (again, obvious) Gunnery V Small Projectile Turret V Small Artillery Specialization IV Medium Projectile Turret V Medium Artillery Specialization IV Sharpshooter V
Honestly...what the hell??
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Helen Hunts
Gallente Red Dragon Mining inc
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Posted - 2007.10.03 05:18:00 -
[2]
Torps/missiles have guidance devices to get them to the target. Turrets have to be aimed, requiring some actual skill in order to hit anything smaller or more mobile than a planet. _______________________________
Mine da rocks, make more ships. Pop da rats, make more rigs. Sell da gear, make more money.
Any Questions? |
Buyerr
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Posted - 2007.10.03 05:19:00 -
[3]
you want to run a fight between the ships with these two ;)
besides for missiles to have any effect at all you will need more then that!...
there have been a descussion before about it, and it was cleared
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Kaze Deoulle
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Posted - 2007.10.03 05:19:00 -
[4]
guns have more dps.
can i have your stuff?
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Shikaku
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2007.10.03 05:23:00 -
[5]
you also get the core gunnery that affects all thre different turret types wich means fast crosstraining
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Kaze Deoulle
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Posted - 2007.10.03 05:35:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Shikaku you also get the core gunnery that affects all thre different turret types wich means fast crosstraining
they also get core missile stuff whats your point.
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Cadiz
Caldari No Quarter. Vae Victis.
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Posted - 2007.10.03 05:48:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Cadiz on 03/10/2007 05:48:31
Originally by: Anon Forumalt Torpedo Specialization prereqs: Torpedoes V (obviously) Missile Launcher Operation IV Standard Missiles III (prereq for Heavy Missiles) Heavy Missiles III (prereq for Torpedoes)
Large Artillery Specialization prereqs: Large Projectile Turret V (again, obvious) Gunnery V Small Projectile Turret V Small Artillery Specialization IV Medium Projectile Turret V Medium Artillery Specialization IV Sharpshooter V
Honestly...what the hell??
I believe it actually takes missile pilots longer to train Rocket Specialization, Standard Missile Specialization, Heavy Missile Specialization, Cruise Missile Specialization, and Torpedo Specialization than it does a gunnery pilot to get to their Large Turret Specialization of choice. It's easy for missile pilots just to run headlong for a single type, but if they want to branch out and be comprehensive, they've got tougher going. ------ Director, No Quarter "There is no problem that cannot be solved by the judicious application of violence." |
Ampoliros
Shadow Company FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.10.03 05:54:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Anon Forumalt Torpedo Specialization prereqs: Torpedoes V (obviously) Missile Launcher Operation IV Standard Missiles III (prereq for Heavy Missiles) Heavy Missiles III (prereq for Torpedoes)
Large Artillery Specialization prereqs: Large Projectile Turret V (again, obvious) Gunnery V Small Projectile Turret V Small Artillery Specialization IV Medium Projectile Turret V Medium Artillery Specialization IV Sharpshooter V
Honestly...what the hell??
Missiles are easier to directly specialize for a single type of t2 launcher as compared to a single type of t2 gun (especially on the larges), but are overall more SP required to max them all out. Easier to get into, harder to finish them all. ------------------------------------ My statements are not those of my corp or of my alliance, nor anyone else.
[Insert witty comment here] |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.10.03 05:54:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Cadiz Edited by: Cadiz on 03/10/2007 05:48:31
Originally by: Anon Forumalt Torpedo Specialization prereqs: Torpedoes V (obviously) Missile Launcher Operation IV Standard Missiles III (prereq for Heavy Missiles) Heavy Missiles III (prereq for Torpedoes)
Large Artillery Specialization prereqs: Large Projectile Turret V (again, obvious) Gunnery V Small Projectile Turret V Small Artillery Specialization IV Medium Projectile Turret V Medium Artillery Specialization IV Sharpshooter V
Honestly...what the hell??
I believe it actually takes missile pilots longer to train Rocket Specialization, Standard Missile Specialization, Heavy Missile Specialization, Cruise Missile Specialization, and Torpedo Specialization than it does a gunnery pilot to get to their Large Turret Specialization of choice. It's easy for missile pilots just to run headlong for a single type, but if they want to branch out and be comprehensive, they've got tougher going.
STOP THE PRESS!
It require more time to specialize in the long range and short range version of missiles than in specializing in either the short or the long range version in guns.
Try specializing in blaster and rails both. Specializing in torpedos and cruise is equivalent.
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cal nereus
Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2007.10.03 06:00:00 -
[10]
Perhaps the skill requirements are tougher because they're just plain better, and well worth the training time? ---
Join BH-DL |
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.10.03 06:20:00 -
[11]
Originally by: cal nereus Perhaps the skill requirements are tougher because they're just plain better, and well worth the training time?
No simply because the missile specialization skills where introduced before most of the other T2 skills, and where made simplier.
CCP never changed that.
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Kuolematon
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.10.03 06:24:00 -
[12]
Whoa, I was about to rant same thing this morning. Thanks for saving me for creating topic.
I recently started training missile skills due Khanid Mk2 Amarr nerf and I found out that none of missile support skills needs to be lvl5 to get specialized. Man was I stunned.
Caldari-Online eeze mod!! LULZ!1!1 Joggernagts Torspzod!!! LOLL!L!
It's great being Amarr isn't it.
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Laboratus
Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen
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Posted - 2007.10.03 06:25:00 -
[13]
Missiles as they are now are relatively new, and as such they were made faster to specialised to. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats |
cal nereus
Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2007.10.03 06:26:00 -
[14]
Well, I sympathize. Those gunnery specializations are killing me too. But them's the breaks. Bear with it. Take one for the team. Sacrifice your only son for a good harvest. etc, etc. ---
Join BH-DL |
Haulinit
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Posted - 2007.10.03 06:47:00 -
[15]
You bring out your Raven with Torps spec and I'll bring out my rokh with T2 Rails spec .. We can sit 200km apart and see what happens
My point being that T2 Large guns are way better than T2 Torps in ANY engagement which in itself justifies the increased skill reqs.
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Shevar
Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.10.03 06:51:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Ampoliros
Missiles are easier to directly specialize for a single type of t2 launcher as compared to a single type of t2 gun (especially on the larges), but are overall more SP required to max them all out. Easier to get into, harder to finish them all.
Wrong, tech2 turrets where ingame before tech2 launchers.
--- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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Phelan Lore
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.10.03 07:01:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Phelan Lore on 03/10/2007 07:05:49
It's fine...
I have T2 torps for my phoon and I might want to train T2 heavy missiles at some point, but I don't want T2 lights, rockets, or HAMs for anything. -
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Laboratus
Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen
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Posted - 2007.10.03 07:06:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Haulinit You bring out your Raven with Torps spec and I'll bring out my rokh with T2 Rails spec .. We can sit 200km apart and see what happens
My point being that T2 Large guns are way better than T2 Torps in ANY engagement which in itself justifies the increased skill reqs.
Sad thing is, cruise raven beats Rail Rokh at all ranges. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats |
Cadiz
Caldari No Quarter. Vae Victis.
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Posted - 2007.10.03 07:20:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Cadiz on 03/10/2007 07:26:07
Originally by: Venkul Mul I believe it actually takes missile pilots longer to train Rocket Specialization, Standard Missile Specialization, Heavy Missile Specialization, Cruise Missile Specialization, and Torpedo Specialization than it does a gunnery pilot to get to their Large Turret Specialization of choice. It's easy for missile pilots just to run headlong for a single type, but if they want to branch out and be comprehensive, they've got tougher going.
STOP THE PRESS!
It require more time to specialize in the long range and short range version of missiles than in specializing in either the short or the long range version in guns.
Try specializing in blaster and rails both. Specializing in torpedos and cruise is equivalent.
I can't understand why anybody wouldn't specialize in both. The Sharpshooting/Motion Prediction prereqs either way are immensely desirable for all gunnery pilots, and from there it's maybe a week to get the Specialization requirements done. Easy breezy.
Quick glance at skill training numbers for Large Turret Specs:
Gunnery V (1x) Sharpshooter V (2x) Motion Prediction V (2x) Small Racial Turret V (1x) ->Small Short-Range Specialization IV (3x) ->Small Long-Range Specialization IV (3x) Medium Racial Turret V (3x) ->Medium Short-Range Specialization IV (5x) ->Medium Long-Range Specialization IV (5x) Large Racial Turret V (5x) ->Large Short-Range Specialization I (8x) ->Large Long-Range Specialization I (8x)
Now if you wanted to be able to use all classes of missiles just like a t2 large turret pilot can use all sizes of his particular line's guns, you'd have to do the following training...
Missile Launcher Operation V (1x) Rockets V (1x) ->Rocket Specialization I (3x) Standard Missiles V (2x) ->Standard Missile Specialization I (3x) Heavy Missiles V (3x) ->Heavy Missile Specialization I (5x) Heavy Assault Missiles V (3x) ->Heavy Assault Missile Specialization I (5x) Cruise Missiles V (5x) ->Cruise Missile Specialization I (8x) Torpedoes V (4x) ->Torpedo Specialization I (8x)
Draw your own conclusions, but it's worth noting that Motion Prediction & Sharpshooting are both desirable skills in themselves, so a part of your prerequisite training is also filling in your core gunnery skills. For missiles, only Missile Launcher Operation is covered in the Specialization training, so even after you can use the launchers you have to go back and thrash all those core skills out. Trying to use those launchers without the support skills to go with them is pretty useless, after all.
And for those who are too lazy to train for t2 large guns, there's always the Rokh. ------ Director, No Quarter "There is no problem that cannot be solved by the judicious application of violence." |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.10.03 07:24:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Shevar
Originally by: Ampoliros
Missiles are easier to directly specialize for a single type of t2 launcher as compared to a single type of t2 gun (especially on the larges), but are overall more SP required to max them all out. Easier to get into, harder to finish them all.
Wrong, tech2 turrets where ingame before tech2 launchers.
I think you cited the wrong post .
I was repeating what I have found in the forums, as I am not so old as a player. From what I did read the T2 missile where created before the T2 guns, but it is a second hand information.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.10.03 08:03:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Cadiz
Originally by: Venkul Mul It require more time to specialize in the long range and short range version of missiles than in specializing in either the short or the long range version in guns.
Try specializing in blaster and rails both. Specializing in torpedos and cruise is equivalent.
I can't understand why anybody wouldn't specialize in both. The Sharpshooting/Motion Prediction prereqs either way are immensely desirable for all gunnery pilots, and from there it's maybe a week to get the Specialization requirements done. Easy breezy.
Two different arguments:
- what is required;
- what is useful.
Missiles user can specialize in the T2 large version of the weapon very fast, and later train the support skills and eventually other T2 variant of the missile family (rockets, standard missiles, ecc.).
Gun user should specialize in tiers, they can't jump to T2 large rail for a sniper mega and then do T2 medium blaster for a blaster thorax. To get to the T2 large rail you need T2 small and medium rail.
With the average lifespan of a EVE account it is a distinct advantage and one of the reasons of the Caldari appeal. For longer playing characters it tend to have little influence.
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Segge Bolled
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.10.03 08:39:00 -
[22]
From what I've seen regarding practical aspects,
Guns = instant dealing of damage. Fall-off a factor extending range of effect beyond your set optimal. Each hard-point with a gun generally deals more than one damage type.
Missiles = flight time, especially when at range - giving the opponent room to maneuver or flee, especially without extra skills trained up to reduce this. Flight time being strictly finite limits range of effect to a set distance - 1km out of that and you watch your ordinance go all David Copperfield on you and vanish into nothing, so your optimal is in fact all the way up to your max range but beyond that and you're stuffed. Each hard-point with a launcher deals only one damage type at a time.
In my opinion, guns are more useful in PvP and the requirements to strike hard and strike true suit their power on the battlefield.
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Petit D'eath
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Posted - 2007.10.03 08:46:00 -
[23]
Base Character (Just created - no implants, no Laerning skills)
To Max out ALL Missile skills = 1367 days* to Max out ALL Gunnery Skills = 2620 days*
* No Capital Skills counted - otherwise Gunnery goes WAY up . ... . .
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr Please Enter Password
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Posted - 2007.10.03 08:50:00 -
[24]
I'm just glad it works as it works, 'cause otherwise the Khanid "nerf" section of the upgrade would've been...ridicilous
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
NeoTheo
Caldari Dark Materials Fang Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.03 09:55:00 -
[25]
The Level 5 missile missile skills take like 20 days + where as the lower tier of gunner skills just take a few, it does look dodgy but the short answer is gunnery guys end up training lots of 5 days kills and 12 days jobbers, where as missile pilots end up witha 20 to 30 day train at lvl 5.
thats the main diference, its pretty equal, but not exactly so.
/Theo
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr Please Enter Password
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Posted - 2007.10.03 10:20:00 -
[26]
Originally by: NeoTheo The Level 5 missile missile skills take like 20 days + where as the lower tier of gunner skills just take a few, it does look dodgy but the short answer is gunnery guys end up training lots of 5 days kills and 12 days jobbers, where as missile pilots end up witha 20 to 30 day train at lvl 5.
thats the main diference, its pretty equal, but not exactly so.
/Theo
Missiles ofcourse always hit(not taking the speed thing into consideration), have no real "falloff/optimal" problem, can have all damage types, shoot longer in shorter time(need BIG lasers to shoot 250km) and so forth.
So it's not a real clear cut in which is better, which training is faster/better.
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
KISOGOKU
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Posted - 2007.10.03 11:08:00 -
[27]
Edited by: KISOGOKU on 03/10/2007 11:10:11 All lies small gunnery rank 1 vs (rockets +std missiles) rank 3 medium gun rank 3 vs (heavy and heavy assault missiles)rank 6 large gun +2 support skill to lvl5 rank 9 vs (torpedo and cruise )rank 9 only if you train for large guns missiles have same training time, every other time gun users save time and you are complaining
Edit:spelling
Originally by: Anon Forumalt
Honestly...what the hell?? [/quote
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F'nog
Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce
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Posted - 2007.10.03 11:09:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Venkul Mul Edited by: Venkul Mul on 03/10/2007 07:54:43
Originally by: Shevar
Originally by: Ampoliros
Missiles are easier to directly specialize for a single type of t2 launcher as compared to a single type of t2 gun (especially on the larges), but are overall more SP required to max them all out. Easier to get into, harder to finish them all.
Wrong, tech2 turrets where ingame before tech2 launchers.
I think you cited the wrong post .
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: cal nereus Perhaps the skill requirements are tougher because they're just plain better, and well worth the training time?
No simply because the missile specialization skills where introduced before most of the other T2 skills, and where made simplier.
CCP never changed that.
I was repeating what I have found in the forums, as I am not so old as a player. From what I did read the T2 missile where created before the T2 guns, but it is a second hand information.
You have been mistakenly informed. T2 guns were in for about a year before the missiles, if my memory serves. At any rate, it was quite a while.
I used to get It. Then It changed. Now I don't even know what It is.
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Melor Rend
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Posted - 2007.10.03 11:15:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Laboratus Sad thing is, cruise raven beats Rail Rokh at all ranges.
Your graph is pretty inaccurate. You failed to calculate the missile-flight time in there. My rails will hit you as soon as I press the button.. your torps will first take like 20-30 seconds (thats about 6 rail volleys) before you start damaging me.
I'm not saying you are wrong about who will win - the problem is just that you need a third dimension besides range and damage - and that would be time. A Raven starts with 0 DPS and builds DPS up over about 20-30 seconds (as the missiles start hitting) so the graph is not very accurate at long ranges. |
Solant
Minmatar Ventis Secundis R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.10.03 11:22:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Kaze Deoulle
Originally by: Shikaku you also get the core gunnery that affects all thre different turret types wich means fast crosstraining
they also get core missile stuff whats your point.
you're missing the point here entirely, ace.
supporting missile skills do not help you crosstrain into anything- they just apply to missiles.
the gunnery, sharpshooter, controlled burst, etc etc skills apply to all 3 types of turret weapony, therefore training sharpshooter to 5 in the long run is gonna give you more (assuming you crosstrain into other turrets) than , say, missile bombardment 5.
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