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KappaWing
Gallente New Alpha
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Posted - 2007.09.18 20:25:00 -
[1]
seems to have more cargo space, a fraction of the price, and waaay less skill time. So why do people use barges instead of haulers for mining?
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Asestorian
Minmatar Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.09.18 20:29:00 -
[2]
Well, because when mining you want the biggest ore yield possible, not the biggest cargo hold.
You use your barge to mine the ore, then you put it into a container, either a secure one, or a jettisoned one, and then get your hauler (preferably a friend or second account tbh) to collect the ore from there and take it back to the station.
If you mine in a hauler, you're going to be stuck with a single Miner II, and that isn't going to be making you very much money at all.
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Dretzle Omega
Caldari Gear Ratio
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Posted - 2007.09.18 20:31:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Dretzle Omega on 18/09/2007 20:31:50 How many Mining Lasers can you fit on your Badger or Mammoth? Only one or two. The intake of ore per cycle will be very low for you, even though you can hold quite a bit.
Also, you can't fit a Strip Miner on an industrial, either. So, yes, you can hold quite a bit in your cargo hold, but it's the time it takes to pull the ore in that makes the Mining Barge (or later maybe an Exhumer) the way to go. Load into into a GSC or jettison it and either bring back your hauler or have one of your corp mates perform that function.
EDIT: Dang. I took too long to write this. I was beat out. :) ------------------- 4 8 15 16 23 42 108 |
GrayKestrel
Caldari Infinity Industrial and Investment
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Posted - 2007.09.18 20:58:00 -
[4]
Heck, the Bantam (a frigate) can outmine a Badger (as both the T1 and T2 can only use 1 Miner) and an Osprey will flat out run circles around a Badger (and even a Procurer with a proper setup).
Now, this is not to say that people do not do this. You will just mine a MUCH LARGER amount of ore with something designed to mine. The people that do use other non specialized miners do have no need to jetcan mine and sometimes do so afk as it goes to their hold. They come back to the comp to fly a full load to the station and then lather rinse and repeat. Personally I will never mine fully afk you are just asking for trouble in my opinion...
I have a link in my sig that can give you some pretty nice information about mining including various ship yields if you are interested. ____________ Guides I like: Mining Guide V2.0.1 By Halada (Awesome guide!) |
Panch0Villa
Caldari AFK
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Posted - 2007.09.18 22:08:00 -
[5]
You are ignoring two major factors here:
1: Less skill time is required for a hauler because it requires no real skills to use. It's just for transporting items.
2: Mining is a profession. As such, it has a very specialized set of skills to enhance mining. What's more, the best mining equipment can be used only by people with the specialized mining skills to use it. The mining barges can use Strip Miner I's, which move 540 m3 per cycle , as a base amount, and it goes way up considering the skills that are needed.
The most you could hope to fit on a hauler is a Miner II, which moves 60 m3 per cycle. You do the math.
Re vera, potas bene. |
Kurlieu
Gallente The Ore House
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Posted - 2007.09.18 22:25:00 -
[6]
There is also the practical aspect that a barge has a drone bay for defense. In 0.5 space and above you go right on mining when the npc rats show up, an Industrial can't do that. The Barger is a sturdier ship. If you really don't want to use a barge it makes more sense to use an Osprey rather than a hauler (or even a Vexor or Exequror).
Before WTZ was available you might argue in favor of a hauler due to travel times for a Barge. But now that you can WTZ, I'd guess a Retriever is about 5-600% faster than an Indy.
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Leora Nomen
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Posted - 2007.09.18 22:49:00 -
[7]
You can use practically anything with at least one slot for a miner mod to mine in 0.8-1.0 systems. But keep in mind that 0.0-0.7 systems you will need a defense from NPCs and if high sec mining generates something like 3-10 million per hour in specialized ship with specialized skills, how much income you'd be getting per hour without skills and specialized ship? Answer is something pitiful.
guide to game time codes |
Baka Lakadaka
Gallente Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.19 00:35:00 -
[8]
It's all about time.
There are 2 facets to mining:
1) getting the ore, (requires multiple lasers and low cycles times) and 2) moving it to a refinery (requires lots of cargo space)
The hauler is great at no.2, the barge is great at no.1.
Neither is optimal for both.
You can sit a hauler with a mining laser in a 0.8 system for hours and go watch Southpark, but it won't make your fortune. You're not even really playing, just farming ISK for yourself.
If you want to make money, separate the mining and hauling facets and optimise both.
Cheers Baka ______________________ Have a Skill in training every second of every day and never buy a ship you can't afford to replace at least once. |
Gorek Loc
Fine Art Manufactury
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Posted - 2007.09.19 00:47:00 -
[9]
Besides, a Hulk can field a cargohold at 16k+ m3... You can't dish out with a level 1 hauler that can host such a carghold. --- Compare items ? Image 1 - Image 2 Thanks to Daetusk. |
Helen Hunts
Gallente Red Dragon Mining inc
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Posted - 2007.09.19 02:18:00 -
[10]
As for mining barges, with plain T1 strips and a mining upgrade (unnamed T1) in a retriever, I was bringing in over 950m per 3 minutes per 3 minute cycle, per Stripper. With my new Hulk, I'm bringing in 1166m per strip every 3 minutes, and I field 3 strips. That hauler may have a huge hold, but it's going to take quite some time before it fills up. If you're happy spending hours in .9 space just to get a single load of Veldspar, then by all means, enjoy. Personally, I've ships I want to build and ammo to make so I can go blow stuff up. Mining is nice for a quiet afternoon's relaxation, but it's not what I live for. _______________________________
Mine da rocks, make more ships. Pop da rats, make more rigs. Sell da gear, make more money.
Any Questions? |
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NCP S2
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Posted - 2007.09.19 02:44:00 -
[11]
For fun, or to be more specific, a lot of boredom one day... I fitted a miner on a hauler of mine and headed to an asteroid belt in 1.0 space.
1st, very few roids left due to the dedicated high sec farmers 2nd, I calculated somewhere around 6 1/2 hours to fill a medium sized hauler with a T1 miner and T1 cargo expanders... which would have made me about 900k total if I sold the ore, maybe more, I forget that number off hand, but it was pitiful, I could have made more killing rats in .7 space in an hour than this. 3rd, you have no defense if you want to solo mine something worth value 4th, all of the points from above.
If you feel like mining while you sleep, you still wont really make any extra isk, and the roids are pretty much guarenteed to pop in the middle, so you're really missing out... not a viable alternative income.
-S2
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Sense Offender
Gallente Deathly Hallows
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Posted - 2007.09.19 04:48:00 -
[12]
I remember back in the day... before there were barges, when space was much less populated by macroers, and space was just overall much less populated... hauler mining was pretty handy. Sure, it wasn't good for a core source of income. But for a low-level miner, you could park on a really fat Veld 'roid in 1.0-0.9 and leave the computer for a few hours. Not great income, but more isk than you'd be making if you were totally offline.
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ZerKar
Caldari Deadspace Armada Lost Children of Eve
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Posted - 2007.09.19 09:21:00 -
[13]
Breakdown to answer your question.
If you cannot use a Barge and do not have a way of safely Jet-Can mining then the Industrails work fairly well. I have done it for a long time but there is a few problems.
1) Industrails can usually only use 1 laser which means you will spend several hours killing 1 roid.
2) The Osprey (a Cruiser) not only can use 3 lasers but also gives a bonus to their yield. 3 Miner II's with bonuses = a LOT of ore, and it has Drones to protect itself in sec ratings lower than 1.
3) Mining barges can mine INCREADIBLE amounts with their Strip Miners and Mining Drones. Blowing away even the Osprey.
4) Barges like the Hulk can have MASSIVE storage bays easily as big or bigger than the Industrail ships.
So if you do not want to spend so much skill then the best suggestion is to use something like an Osprey or your favorite race's Mining Cruiser and haul with an Industrail ship. If you are more serious then a Mining Barge is the only way to go.
------------------------------------------------ everything is never Nothing is Never Not ------------------------------------------------ |
L0st S0ul
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.09.19 11:36:00 -
[14]
I tried a badger once to mine took ages so I went and made some food and drink.
Came back to see a pretty wreck, I then bought an Osprey extended cargo to 1000m3 with 3x miner 2's and missile launcher and probably mining as good as the basic barge.
If your going to use a badger to mine, make sure there are no npc spawns and you can leave it mining for a few hours. -----------------------------------------------
Come on you apes, you wanna live forever?
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Nially
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Posted - 2007.09.19 11:41:00 -
[15]
Started this game last night, had a blast going through an insane set of 10 missions from the first agent i met after the tutorial. inventing a perpetual motion machine, are you kidding!? awesome stuff.
Now i've got that mining guide that is linked in someone's sig here, and i'm on my way to training caldari frigate 3 today while i'm at work. Tonight i plan to begin my mining empire! A few questions though.
I've also read some things about training my learning skills up first, but that is never mentioned in the mining guide. I spent the hour last night training my learning up to level 2, but left the rest alone. While creating my character, i pretty much chose every option that would give me more intellect, and ended up starting with 15 int, which seems like a lot to me, but i'm not sure how much that will effect my learning abilities. So the question is, how much time, if any, should i devote to advancing learning skills before i continue on with the skills outlined in the mining guide?
Also, and slightly more related to this thread, What sort of barge should i pick up to allow me to solo mine a little bit and get the hang of it? Do i even have the ability to drive a barge this early in the game, or will i be forced to hook up with someone who can? If i can't pilot a barge, would it make sense to look for some asteroids that are close to a station, and just jetcan mine for a while, then ferry loads of ore back to the station in my miner?
And finally (!!) is there an easy way to find mining areas other than just wandering around in space looking for pretty rocks?
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Asestorian
Minmatar Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.09.19 11:57:00 -
[16]
Nially:
Hmm.. Let's first start with your attributes.
15 intelligence from the start is quite a lot. It sounds like you may have neglected your other attributes quite a bit, which is quite a bad thing. Would you mind posting the rest of your attributes, and any levels in any learning skills you might have? Whilst I don't normally go for the restarting of characters, it may be worth doing so if your attributes are really imbalanced. Even miners need perception and willpower to train for their ships
Learning skills should be trained as soon as possible as well. The best thing to do for you would be to get into your mining frigate and then your hauler or whatever it is the mining guide suggest, and then train the basic learning skills to 3 or 4 whilst you mine. After that, train up for cruisers, so you can use the Osprey, and then see if you can afford the advanced learning skills, which you should probably train to around level 2. Then you need to go for a medium barge I'd think, and then finish your advanced learning skills by getting them to level 4.
Once that is all done, your learning skills should have boosted your attributes nicely, and you can just go about training whatever else it is you want to train. It may be worth at a later date finishing the basic learning skills to 5 as well, but that's up to you.
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Nially
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Posted - 2007.09.19 12:24:00 -
[17]
Heh, i figured i would specialize in the intelligence, surely there must be SOME benefits to this? :) I think i'm more interested in the "mining for materials, building things, and inventing things" type of career path, and int seems most important to those. I also focused a bit on some memory skills, and i don't think i went for many bonuses in the other attributes. I would post the rest of my attributes, but can't access Eve from work, damn them! I think i had at least 6 in everything though?
I know there were 3 learning skills available, the first one was at level 2, the second was at level 3 or 4, and the skill that i think is actually called Learning, i had trained up to level 2. Thanks for the advice on skill progression though, that's comforting.
I really don't want to start over, i made a quarter million isk off doing the 10 missions from my first agent! and i've got a full days worth of skill training done as well. :( Are my attributes REALLY that bad for what i want to do?
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Gartel Reiman
Project F3
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Posted - 2007.09.19 12:41:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Nially Are my attributes REALLY that bad for what i want to do?
That depends - how about you start by telling us what they are?
The thing with EVE is that no-one actually wants to be specialised, certainly not for long periods of time. Can you really say that your character will never want to learn how to fly bigger ships, or better weapons, or drones, or trade skills to sell the stuff you mine, or leadership skills to increase your mining yield, etc.? Most people don't realise how much so-called 'support' skills are important for most professions, and what it boils down to is that you'll be training a lot of skills that use most if not all of your attributes.
There's an element of diminishing returns, too - if you had charisma 4 and intelligence 10, then decided to take one point from charisma to put it into intelligence - you'd be training 33% slower in charisma-related skills but only 10% faster in intelligence-related skills. And since your CHA is lower and thus that skill would take longer, the 33% represents much more actual time than the 10% you'd save.
To sum it up, the actual distribution of attributes isn't that important so long as you don't really shoot yourself in the foot at all. It's rarely worth boosting an attribute to extreme levels at the expense of others. And to answer your last questions - a day's training is nothing in the grand scheme of things (to train one race's Battleships skill from 4 to 5 will take 30-40 days, for example), and you can give the money you've earnt to your new character (some with the items) so they won't be lost either.
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Nially
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Posted - 2007.09.19 12:49:00 -
[19]
alright, alright, i'll start over! :)
you 2 guys and my friend who got me into this are all telling me i should. So now do i just want a totally even balance of attributes, so i can be all that i can be?
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Dretzle Omega
Caldari Gear Ratio
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Posted - 2007.09.19 13:22:00 -
[20]
At this link you'll find some useful information on starting a character: http://forum.arsclan.net/showthread.php?t=8668 . Most information there, except for the last paragraph, is good for most everyone. However, the last advice he says is to go for Military school or whatever, but if you know you want mining as your main career, go for that. And once you get to a spot in your career that's earning you good money, train up some fighting skills (well, you'll want some fighting skills in the beginning to survive against rats). ------------------- 4 8 15 16 23 42 108 |
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Asestorian
Minmatar Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.09.19 14:12:00 -
[21]
I'd say it's a good idea to go for balanced attributes. As Gartel Reiman said, you never know what you might want to train in the future, and having your attributes as balanced as possible certainly aids that.
Of course, there is nothing wrong with giving a little priority to the intelligence and memory attributes if you are sure you're going to be sticking to more industry related things, but just make sure that you don't prioritise them too much
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Dretzle Omega
Caldari Gear Ratio
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Posted - 2007.09.19 14:25:00 -
[22]
To help emphasize the importance of your attributes (and learning skills, as well); I wanted to train my Caldari Frigate from level 3 to level 4. I decided first to take 21 hours to train my Perception (Spatial Awareness skill) from level 3 to level 4, moving me up to 12 in Perception. This lowered the time for training Caldari Frigate by 3 HOURS. Attributes definitely play an important role. The Learning skill increases your rate of training by 2%. That gives you an extra 28.8 minutes a day of training. So if it takes you one hour to train Learning from 1 to 2, you'll make that one hour up in two days.
If you're going for mining, too, I've found this with my current character. By choosing the industrial/mining career when starting out, you get a heck of a lot of Mining skills. I was Caldari Detreis and chose the mining career and started out with Mining 5, Mining Foreman 4, Refining 5, Veldspar Processing 4, Industry 3, Science and Laboratory Operation at 3. The things I've been especially needing to train up are my use of ships. Caldari Frigate to 3 and Caldari Industrial to 1 to be able to fly a Badger (and increase my mining in my Bantam in the process). Caldari Frigate to 4 and Caldari Cruiser to 1 to fly the Osprey. These ships significantly increase the amount of ore per hour you can bring in, and since you start out with high industrial skills in the first place, it would hurt for your perception to be started at decent level to begin with. ------------------- 4 8 15 16 23 42 108 |
Evalisa
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Posted - 2007.09.19 22:47:00 -
[23]
Use Evemon.
set a skill plan for an average amount of time, say a month, pick all the skills you want, you can change it later or don't even need to follow it completely as you find other things you need. Then on the bottom left it will have a link to suggestions Clicking that will suggest learning skills that will cut your total training time down.
This is usefully if this is your first character and don't want to spend a long time in new player stuff whilst toy train learning skills to 4 each
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Baka Lakadaka
Gallente Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.19 22:48:00 -
[24]
Way off topic here...but I'll go with the flow.
If you're saving 3 hours on Caldari Frigate IV, imagine what you're going to save when you try to learn something like Battleship V (which takes around a month with good learning skills).
As to attributes - balance them. Even Charisma is important for a miner (so you can get the mining foreman skill and give bonuses to your mining crew). Try to have all your base attributes within 1-2 points then use learning skills to boost the ones you need. You can always come back and increase learning skills later as you need a particular type.
Cheers Baka ______________________ Have a Skill in training every second of every day and never buy a ship you can't afford to replace at least once. |
GrayKestrel
Caldari Infinity Industrial and Investment
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Posted - 2007.09.19 23:11:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Evalisa Use Evemon.
^ Cannot go wrong with that! ____________ Guides I like: Mining Guide V2.0.1 By Halada (Awesome guide!) |
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