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Kira Felicitas
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Posted - 2007.09.17 05:45:00 -
[151] - Quote
Might be a little too fictional but when I started playing Eve I saw a fight between two corps in HighSec. Around 20 ships on each side fighting each other. That was one of my first impressions I got from Eve and it was amazing to see it and I wanted to participate on things like that. But when I started running missions it was more like "It's me - alone - against a bunch of rats". Thinking of factional warfare I also think of missions that are more like a war between corps or alliances - but then between npc factions instead of player corps. You warp in and have two parties: the friendlies that are in need of your help and the enemies. There could also be an "npc fleet commander" giving you orders, doing gang warps and things like other fleet commanders do in pvp. Later on, the player himself could have the opportunity to lead the gang having several faction ships in a gang under his command. All of this in missions. Those missions could be very interesting I think. Ok, this is very visionary, but I think it's at least an idea ;)
(And sorry for my bad English - I hope you understood what I said) ;)
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Dar Qsyde
Caldari
SUBLIME L.L.C.
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.17 07:09:00 -
[152] - Quote
I'm anxiously awaiting Faction War and since you are asking for ideas...here's my .02ISK
First, I believe that all rewards from FW "missions" should be in LP only. I would recommend that this be redeemable in a new "tier" of LP Store that carries only factional gear, only available in faction friendly stations. This would see FW players slowly migrate to faction only ships and gear over time, but allow them the flexibilty to pilot whatever ships they wanted. These "Faction LP" could also be used to buy ranks. For example, I could spend my 10,000 FW LPs on a Hookbill or a rank of Ensign.
An increase in Rank should provide access to more lucrative "missions", more often.
Security Status and Standings should be cumulative. For example, My SecStat is 2.0 and my standing with the Caldari State is 1.5 so my SecStatus in Caldari Space should be 3.5, but since my standing with the Gallente Federation is -2.5 I would be at -0.5 in Gallente Space. This means that if I'm a zealous Caldari pilot my standing with the Gallente Federation should drop fairly rapidly, effectively keeping me from entering Gallente space. This could also be used to restrict pilots from entering Stations controlled by hostile alliances. This should only be enabled for those who are participating in FW.
In keeping with this, should I be attacked by a hostile FW participant in Caldari space, a Caldari Navy NPC spawn of appropriate size to our relative Security Status difference should appear to aid me. Likewise if I attack a Gallente FW participant in Gallente space a Gallente Federation NPC spawn should appear to help thwart me.
In addition, FW LP should be rewarded for attacking random hostile NPC spawns and people. For people it should be rated based on there Security Status and/or Standing. Again, I stress this should only be enabled for those who have "signed up" for Faction War.
There should also be a "Donate to the War Effort" option, which would allow industrialists and miners to earned FW LP by giving material to the faction. A higher reward should be given for donations that are more racially appropriate. For example, an Amarr Industrialist should get more FW LP for donating Frequency Crystals than they would for donating Hybrid ammo, and should not get much reward for donating Projectile ammo. This would be essentially be a second Market with NPC-only Buy orders that are paid in FW LP. To provide a little excitement, restrict the order range to station, and this forces people to haul goods to that lonely, isolated station. Then let the hostiles know  .
That's all I've got for now. Should anything else come to me I'll let you know.
"You don't know the power..." |
Tairon Usaro
The X-Trading Company
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2007.09.17 08:34:00 -
[153] - Quote
Still i do not see, how you fulfill the objective of PVP being down scaled to small gangs in the area of factional warfares. This might be due to the fact that you did not disclose, how you want to issue PVP missions. Maybe it is like this
Amarrian Navy Officer issues the following mission:
tGather 5 Pilots and come back to me to get your ordersv
You form a gang of 5 Pilots and report to the Navy Officer that you are ready
tOur intelligence has reported that some minmatar forces are gathering in System XY, please stand by for engagement. You will receive a notification, once our recon forces have spotted the enemy.v
At the same time a mission is also issued for Minmatars, so you synchronize 5:5 FW-PvPers by this. Once the Minmatar gang is formed the Amarrians get an Evemail from the trecon forcev, while the MinmatarFs are informed by the their intel that a Amarrian fleet is on its way to their system.
OK thatFs a possible scenario for PVP Missions, BUT what will happen ? Since it is low sec, both sides will probably enforce their teams by non-FW PvPers in order to increase their chance to win this. For the sake of sec standing loss, everybody could engage the FW missioners. All in all it would end up in the same mess as the 0.0 blobbing, we currently have.
So what you really want to have, is separating the FW-PVP from the rest in order to be able to restrict their forces to the mission design. How do we get there ? One answer to my eyes could be dead space pockets. The gates to dead space pockets are an optimal separator for sorting out the people you want to have in the scenario from the others.
So here is a scenario I envision:
Same as above, but the Minmatars get the objective to defend a radio telescope in their system used for transmitting intel to the HQ. Via a gate they warp into the dead space pocket and prepare themselves for the defense. The AmarrianFs get the bookmark to their NPC recon buddy, which is able to open a intra-system jumpbridge into the dead space pocket for the missioners. Voila, a clear cut 5 vs 5 with no interference from others.
Maybe these small missions can accumulate to larger impacts such as the system sovereignty level, which influences the station behaviour as already metioned by others in this thread.
By the way something like this could also be used for POS warefare (Dead space pockets whith entry restrictions, where you have to knock out speficic parts of the POS defense, instead of 200 vs 200 in front of the POS).
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Some days i loose, some days the others win ... |
Seringol
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Posted - 2007.09.17 09:03:00 -
[154] - Quote
I know I have said a lot of things so far, and it seems I am in the minority on many.
My final questions; which do not need answers here but I sincerely hope you talk about with each other:
How will you enforce/encourage small gangs?
How will you bring non 0.0 residents to 0.0?
How will you keep them there, when their ships are blown up because small gangs were ignored?
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Ellaine TashMurkon
MetaForge
Ekliptika
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Posted - 2007.09.17 09:53:00 -
[155] - Quote
Edited by: Ellaine TashMurkon on 17/09/2007 09:55:09
Few concepts on encouraging small gangs;
transport
When you declare to join an FW encounter, you do not know where exactly will it happen (military secret).
Instead, you declare team and ships for encounter and wait. When all is arranged, ships are jumped in a mothership and you can clonejump there 24 hour timer ignored for that purpose perhaps, or do not let people with timer declare) and pick your ships.
If you have 50 friends somewhere, reday to kick, they have to fly theree to join you. The battle may be over till then. If they were near or moved fast enough - yay for you!
Reimbusement
To some degree ships and equipment lost in FW might be reimbused instead of getting insurance payout. You declare a ship and setup, and when its lost, you just get a new one, with same fitting - to a reasonable level. Small gang is motivated simply by reimbusing only declared small gang, with ships and fittings of quality dependent on pilots FW rank and position. So if you are a private, just starting with FW, Amarr Empire may get You a new executor with meta level 2 fittings (worst named), not your Zealot with faction stuff, and definately not your Blasterthron. If You are a high ranked general in Amarr Navy, You can request reimbusement of Your Absolution with T2 and Amarr Navy fittings (but still not a Blasterthron). So, if You get 20 friends to join Your gang, they dont get reimbusement and risk much more finantial damage then the declared group (that risks only loss in FW rankes and points for loosing).
At the same time, it motivates using racial equipment.
Also, it shall draw resources from real people, industrial FW members (who are rewarded with FW points and ranks and stuff for that), so You will not get an Absolution unless someone has built it for the Amarr Navy ealier.
Also, it works very well for keeping FW people joyfully engaging in FW warfare without fear of financial loose, espacially when they are newbie and cannot realistically asses risks, and at the same time, FW reward ships are not a free guns to throw in sucide frighter ganking in Jita or in your 0.0 war with BoB. Nothing stops You from getting Your FW reward Navy Apoc for fleets in Pure Blind, You just wont get a new one if its lost outside FW.
Reimbusement is IMHO good design because it motivates but does not create magical barriers.
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Cpt Branko
The Bloody Red
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Posted - 2007.09.17 10:08:00 -
[156] - Quote
 Originally by: The Cosmopolite
What I would say is that if it happens without a quid pro quo then it will be a huge turn off for people and could potentially marginalise factional warfare. The quid pro quo cannot simply be that one's enemies are similarly denied access in your home region. If you don't care about any home region that is no kind of quid pro quo. Again, we won't be the only people who will wish to practise asymmetric warfare and docking restrictions will be a penalty with no plus side for people like us.
This is true.
Think about what pirates (like me) have to do now: use alts to get goods in low-sec and sell goods in high-sec. Which is essentially meta-gaming. Completely necessary under the current game mechanics, I'm afraid (actually, you need *two* alts if you're operating on the same account and don't want to train a lot of skills).
Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn
Pure pk's with SS -10 can't go to the Empire, I don't see the problem here. They also can't dock.
Er, they can do both. It's just that the faction navy will shoot them if they do (but you're fine in a shuttle). Not being able to dock anywhere would essentially mean deleting my character if you think about it. At any rate, restricting docking/services/market is a bad idea and forces people to do meta-gaming, which is not fun and not good for gameplay.
Originally by: Goumindong
Edited by: Goumindong on 14/09/2007 21:01:03
O.K. This is pretty much what i envision.
- Factions delcare war officially. Setting up clear allies, neutralities, and enemies in other NPC factions.
- Players, Corporations, and Alliances may declare allegiance to a faction. Synchronizing those allies, neutralities, and enemies for their self, corp, alliance.
- "Declared Factions" give loyalty points to players which they can claim for rewards based on player vs player actions
- Loyalty points are rewarded to the player, corporation, and alliance for attacking a hostile players ship equipment or assets, or hostile NPC. I.E. if Johnny Serpentis Kills Klaakitoa Jim then Johnny Serpentis gains x loyalty points to serpentis, Johnny's Corp recieves a portion of those points if they are declared, and Johnnys Alliance recieves a portion of those points if they are declared.
- Loyalty points are rewarded to the player, corporation, and alliance for destroying a hostile players ship equipment or assets, or hostile NPC. I.E. if Johnny Serpentis Kills Klaakitoa Jim then Johnny Serpentis gains x loyalty points to serpentis, Johnny's Corp recieves a portion of those points if they are declared, and Johnnys Alliance recieves a portion of those points if they are declared.
I would find that to be a very good basic outline, with implementing standing (LP) loss only if you gank people who are aligned to your faction. Neutrals have no impact, and people aligned to the opposing faction give you LP.
Originally by: Alora Venoda
i can see this system working as follows:
[list]
since it will involve PvP and empire space, anyone participating should have some kind of flag that will act similar to the current wardec mechanics. basically, it means you are "enlisted" by that particular faction, and shooting a faction warfare opponent will not invoke CONCORD or change your sec status. and the flag should be a global thing, not related to specific objectives and you could be vulnerable from enemy players at any time. and it will also have a 24 hour transition period like with normal wardecs....
Yes, this is how I see it as well - aligning to a faction puts you at a pernament wardec with the players aligned to the other factions. The agression/aiding rules for neutrals are also fine. I do think the rewards should be mainly LP in nature (but good amounts, to entice people to participate, and PvP loot). In fact, I agree with everything except the market thing, for reasons I listed previously.
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Cpt Branko
The Bloody Red
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Posted - 2007.09.17 10:16:00 -
[157] - Quote
As for missions:
I see missions done in the following fashion:
1) Let all ships killed in fights between players who participate in faction warfare and are of opposing factions drop a 'tag' of some sort, depending on ship class.
2) Let most missions require a certain amount of tags of X type in X time.
3) Occasionally, missions should send players from opposing factions in a certain solar system to defend / attack a certain structure / complex.
I'd only limit complex entry by ship class (so if you did sign up for a L1 mission, the biggest you can take is a frigate or possibly a destroyer), but not actually deadspace (so MWD can be used).
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Macmuelli
Gallente
Gallente Mercantile Exchange
Coalition Of Empires
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Posted - 2007.09.17 12:12:00 -
[158] - Quote
Faction warfares and effects on infiltrated stations coud be:
(if this will ever come)
setting:-Docking fee (if the corp( as corp goal for faction missions , and player
individual) which had infiltrate a station has a negative standing an extra
docking fee
-increase of isks each hrs for research/ manufacure
-reserved research/manufacture slots (means some other gets bounced off)( or u
get access to a highe research slot which give an extrabonus as long u has
the station infiltrated.
- setting a tax for each trade on station
( this coud solve the problem with high frequented systems like jita.. if it
get infiltratde by a corp u dont like, u dont do trades on it. Other ppls
woud think about docking .. cos who want make presents like this to your
enemie?)
- refine and reprocess stuff
gives a % bonus to the corp which had infiltrated
the station, independed from skill s of the player which refine/reprocess
stuff.
-medical service.
U have the right to sell jump clones independed from your
corp standing.
- bounties and missions.
U coud get a messsage , when high bountie players are around and has docked
automaticly.
u get an percentage bonus from agent , if a player make a mission for him.
( means the player gets no more then before cos he payed a tax to the
station.
some ideas on effect it could have.
breg mac
"Ein jeder ernte Ruhm auf seine Weise.....Gunnar von Hlidarendi "
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Gerard Deneth
Caldari
Intel 7
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Posted - 2007.09.17 17:20:00 -
[159] - Quote
I really liked the earlier concepts mentioned about planets; In addition to the earlier post IE Orbital bases around planets, like commercial space stations and transfer points (basically some small outposts like we see in missions), we get some small POS-style stations that are providing some measured benefit (FW LP-stores, NPC-run automated repair arrays (come get your armor and hull repped for LP instead of ISK), and as a local node for summonable NPC wingmen). These bases CAN be taken out by a dedicated team, and killing them is more along the lines of blowing up a tough base in a L4 mission rather than an -actual- player POS.
A better idea for handling FW missions would be to use a mission "pool" where there is a continual selection of various level missions of various types, IE hauling, combat, trade, etc etc. Each of them would have some requirements (one battleship, five pilots max) as well as primary and secondary goals (where you get either extra LP or ISK for doing the secondary goals). Each time a mission gets completed or quit (not just refused before accepting) a new mission is generated into the slot. Probably limit the pool to being constellation-linked (IE each constellation has their own pool of missions).
Mission specific structures and ships would only be spawned when the mission was accepted. L4 and L5 missions would involve attacks on bases orbiting planets (but not all missions would involve attacking those bases).
Mission Ideas:
As well, there could be a FW specific "targets list" generated by the faction's high command, targeting some of those civilian trade bases that now exist in planetary orbit.
Hmm, that offers a new option for some players to contribute to FW... replacing the destroyed outposts and their gear (as well as repairing them. Another use for remote reppers... perhaps offer bonuses for repairing any damage done to bases? Make the penalties nastier than bonuses to prevent players from damaging them just to get rewards for fixing them...)
Another mission would be the "convoy" type, which mingles the Courier mission and an attack mission. This is somewhat similar to that cargo hauling one where you get one case of Quafe from a base and get ambushed, but you need a hauler to move the goods (easily 7000m3 in goods). Somewhere along the route you get ambushed/attacked by a cluster of enemy ships seeking to blow up the target ship (include scammers/webbers). Allows participation of haulers, and we might actually see blockade runners being used!
Bonuses to FW players:
One would be the ability to buy ammunition for LP only. LP cost would be a bit more than currently, but would offer players both a feel of 'being connected' with the faction, as well as preventing flooding the market with the equipment (since faction ammo is, by definition, consumed instead of merely installed). Perhaps institute a hard limit on ammo claimed per day.
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LeGlt
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.09.17 17:30:00 -
[160] - Quote
Caldari sentry guns shouldshoot Gallente pilots on sight and vice versa.
Bang goes half the population of Jita (the lag along with it ) and it would add to the realism of the story regarding warring factions etc.
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Nice forum - I'll take it! |
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CCP Ginger
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Posted - 2007.09.17 17:56:00 -
[161] - Quote
Originally by: Sophia Eve
Factional Warfare is definitely sounding nice, but I'm worried about what kind of standings prerequisites are going to be necessary, especially for veteran players who already have factional standings pretty well stuck the way they are. What about players who, by way of where their corporation operates, ended up raising their standings with the enemies of their native race. Are they forced to fight for their "enemies"?
I havent got any problems with not being able to fight for people that you have bad standings towards, simply because to get those bad standings you have had to blow ten tons of crap out of their ships, those poor crews, in space assets etc. So this is fine.
The only hole I see is there is no way to regain standings past a certain point but this needs looking at in a wider context.
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CCP Ginger
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Posted - 2007.09.17 18:02:00 -
[162] - Quote
Originally by: Svetlana Scarlet
One note -- Ginger, you say in your blog that it will allow participation on a corporate or individual level, but what about on an alliance level? This would seem kind of imperative for entities like the CVA, Electus Matari, the Acheron Federation, and the Apex Conglomerate. I can certainly see how this could have been an oversight, but it's something that definitely needs to get addressed.
In the current design their is no mechanic for whole alliances joining factional warfare. However due to the additional time we have on this were going to be looking at ways to incorporate it effectively.
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CCP Ginger
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Posted - 2007.09.17 18:18:00 -
[163] - Quote
Originally by: Nuyan Zahedi
#2 Faction-influence on the market. I think it's already a bit annoying that it's hard to see who's selling and buying, that you can't avoid selling your goodies to your enemies or vice-versa. I hope CCP will implement something for this in Factional Warfare. An extra button that you don't want to sell towards people that have negative standings towards your faction/corporation or someone that is at war. Let stuff you can't buy because the sellers don't want you to appear in orange-red or something. Perhaps even let the station-owner (which could be a npc faction, but perhaps a 0.0 alliance too) enforce it, so there isn't stuff that can be sold to foes of the station-owner. Let trading for someone that has a history of fighting for the Federation be totally impossible in Caldari space.
So basically, were talking here that you can set a standing against a sell/buy order? And anyone below that standing will not be able to purchase your goods? This sounds like a feasable and somewhat fun idea to me, im going to have a word with the guys about it
Originally by: Nuyan Zahedi
#4 Having npc navies patrolling systems and jumping through stargates. I think Eve currently sometimes already feels a bit empty and "dead", especially for a newcomer. You've rats in belts/gates, there is often some patrolling at stargates and there is ofcourse some trader npc's flying from station to station inside a system. But for as far as I know npc's actually don't use stargates.
I like the idea for the sheer immersiveness of it all to be quite honest. Patrols and beefing up convoys and making convoys more integral to factional warfare is something that we should do. Your right tho, currently NPC's are restricted to in system, however, nothing is impossible as they say.
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Artmedis Valben
Gallente
Lobster of Babel
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Posted - 2007.09.17 18:26:00 -
[164] - Quote
FW should be on several levels.
The main Battlegrounds should be border regions of Amarr/Minmatar in 0.1-0.4 AND Gallente/Caldari 0.1-0.4. Sec status of these systems should become fluid and they should even be allowed to change hands, i.e., the factions may win territory from each other.
At the beginning It should only be the military corps of each faction that are involved with the Global mega-corps staying Neutral.
Individual Players of Neutral corporations (Player or NPC starter corps) can declare individually, and their choice should not be limited to fighting for their native faction.
Player Corporations that declare for a faction do so on behalf of all their members who all become flagged as FW figthers.
Being flagged as FW fighter for a faction. Should give you great benefits in the form of faction rewards, medals, ranks, standing etc but only for your faction and to a limited extent to factions friendly to your faction.
However should also make you a criminal in enemy territory and make you KOS to any FW player of the enemy faction. If attacked in friendly high sec you will be aided by your faction.
Corporations that immerse themselves in FW should be able to set up Outposts in their factions low-sec borderzone with the enemy faction, and these outposts should act as sec status raisers, making it harder for the opposing faction to win that system.
The object of FW should be for the factions to try to win territory from each other. And player participation in FW warfare should be what tips the scales. Caldari could slowly one system at a time win over some systems in Sinq Laison and Verge Vendor for example OR Gallente could win over a few systems in The Citadel.
But at the beginning the possibility of systems changing hands should be restricted to the Borderzone "Battlegrounds".
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Selling PERFECT PRINTS of almost all seeded BPOs.
Lobster of Babel currently holds 671 of the 728 Tech 1 BPOs seeded. 7 ships and Capital are missing. |
Alexander Knott
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.09.17 18:47:00 -
[165] - Quote
Originally by: CCP Ginger
Originally by: Nuyan Zahedi
#2 Faction-influence on the market. I think it's already a bit annoying that it's hard to see who's selling and buying, that you can't avoid selling your goodies to your enemies or vice-versa. I hope CCP will implement something for this in Factional Warfare. An extra button that you don't want to sell towards people that have negative standings towards your faction/corporation or someone that is at war. Let stuff you can't buy because the sellers don't want you to appear in orange-red or something. Perhaps even let the station-owner (which could be a npc faction, but perhaps a 0.0 alliance too) enforce it, so there isn't stuff that can be sold to foes of the station-owner. Let trading for someone that has a history of fighting for the Federation be totally impossible in Caldari space.
So basically, were talking here that you can set a standing against a sell/buy order? And anyone below that standing will not be able to purchase your goods? This sounds like a feasable and somewhat fun idea to me, im going to have a word with the guys about it
Not FW related (looking forward to FW though), but being able to set different prices on a buy/sell order for corp and alliance-mates would be pure love for 0.0 (and many highsec) dwellers. This could dovetail in nicely with the faction-limited orders mechanism.
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"I like to loot, especially going to the can of the battleship, sometimes there is a surprise inside, sometimes there is only carp..." |
Ujagar Sommdax
Racketeers
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Posted - 2007.09.17 20:16:00 -
[166] - Quote
I can imagine faction warfare being cool in many ways however I would like my corp to be able to chose under what faction banner we would fight.
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Duke Orsino
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Posted - 2007.09.17 21:19:00 -
[167] - Quote
It's an exciting concept, but the learning curve in Eve is so steep that I wonder if new players will have any breathing room or get swept into massive PVP before they're ready? Also, what about those of us who want to trade, mine and manufacture? When wars sweep through in RL, everybody suffers, so I guess there is a realism element in this...but I'm holding out hope that quiet corners will be reserved for peaceful folks like me.
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Arderich
Bruderschaft des Wahrhaftigen
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Posted - 2007.09.17 21:57:00 -
[168] - Quote
This one is going to become the longest post on eve-online ever... enjoy :)
IMHO there are a few conditions that must be fulfilled to make factional warfare a success.
1.) make it believeable, make it feel 'real'
I only want to mention a few problems I see. One thing are docking rights in hostile systems. Another thing I fear to come is a 'FW option turned on' vs a 'FW option turned off' gameplay experience. I think everybody should somehow be affected by FW even if he chooses to be neutral. One last thing is, and I know many others disagree with me, I think the race of your char and the ship your char is flying should have some kind of effect in FW, too.
2.)make FW easy accessible for everyone without too much mission grinding
The problem are the countless mixed corps with mixed individual standings...
3.)make FW easy avoidable, allowing players to choose a neutral position even after a lot of mission grinding
Problem are players with already very high/low faction standings but who don't want to participate in FW (pvp).
A modified new standing system
I think all the previously mentioned problems can be solved with a new modified standing system. My proposal is solely working with individual standings but not with corp/alliance standings. This allows current corporations to survive but it will cause problems for corps to have Minmatar and Amarr participants of the FW in one and the same corp. Each player can individually choose his commitment to FW instead of having a simple 'FW ON/OFF' function. This allows fine nuances between neutrallity towards everyone to full commitment for one side. If someone doesn't want to take full risk but still wants to get involved in FW somehow then it will be possible, too.
Our current standing system that goes from -10 to +10 could be extended to a -25 to +25 system. The additional 15 standing points are influenced by the race of a player's char and by his choice to join a side or to stay neutral. Let me explain:
Each char has 10 so called 'faction loyality points' (FLP) free to choose. He can go to an amarrian agent and choose to spend zero to ten points for the Amarr faction. Dependent on his old and still active base standings (the -10 to +10 system) he can now gain a standing between 0 (neutral, if he had a -10 standing based on his missions he had done before) up to a +20 standing (if he already had a +10 standing). He also could distribute his FLP between several different factions to equalize his standing, to choose a neutral role in FW.
Spending 1 FLP for one faction causes a full penalty towards the opposing faction. Example: 1 FLP for amarr results in a standing boost of 1 for Amarr, 0.5 for Caldari, -0,5 for Gallente, -1 for Minmatar.
It should be allowed to switch one already used FLP every 2 or 4 or 8 weeks. This way it will be possible to join the opposing side, but not over one night. It will need some time.
The remaining 5 points in my -25 to +25 system would come from the race of your char. You are only allowed to spend this additional 5 points if you join the faction of your race. This means only an amarrian bloodline can reach a standing above +20 for Amarr. This 5 points come without penalty and are solely used for standings above 20 which allow highest ranks. Reason is that I don't want to see 1000 Admirals of Brutor orign in the Sarum Navy. It could be used f.e. in ambulation, too. Only those with an Amarr standing above 20 have the right to sit in the first row in church. Let me say that rewards which can be cashed into isk such as modules etc would be the same for all who fight for Amarr no matter the race. It's only about status (ranks) to have a standing above 20.
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Arderich
Bruderschaft des Wahrhaftigen
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Posted - 2007.09.17 21:58:00 -
[169] - Quote
Now each individual player has the chance to choose either a side or to choose to be neutral without problems regardless which missions he had done before. Whole corporations/alliances can do it now too as long as all members agree to do the same. No need for mission grinding but everyone and every corp/alliance must make a choice. Corps who have fully committed Minmatar and Amarr as members in their corp will have problems to find a place in empire space where all can meet. It makes sense for whole corporations to make a collective decison but it allows coorps to have neutral and fully committed players at the same time.
For what are the standings good for?
PVE/NPC: Based on the security status of the system the standings can be used for docking rights, access to market, tax, reaction of NPC ships, etc. This can be tuned in a way that a Minmatar with a very bad amarr standing can't dock in Amarr Prime but still can dock in a 0.5 Amarr system. He would be attacked by the Amarr Navy in Amarr Pime but not in the 0.5 system or he would be attacked only by frigates in 0.5 but by battleships in Amarr Prime. You get the idea. After some tweaking I am sure it can work.
PVP: Based on the (positive) standing of your char you are allowed to shoot those with bad standings towards your chosen faction. This means if you want your liscence to kill every hostile everywhere then you must have very good standings (spend all your FLP for one faction). Those with less positive standings have a limited liscence to kill and can only shoot hostiles if the hostiles enter high security systems of your faction. However he can't go to low sec or hostile space to shoot players. The peacefull neutral to all trader doesn't have the liscence to kill. Vice versa you can only become a valid target if your standing is bad enough for the system you are in according to the security status. The Minmatar with insignificant negative Amarr standings still can visit most amarrian systems without becoming a valid pvp target. The professional Minmatar rebel with the full liscence to kill from the Republic and with bad negative amarr standings however can be shot on sight wherever he is.
Another 'crazy' idea: standings for ships
With the system described above we could f.e. deny docking rights for hostiles. However I think it should also make a difference what kind of ship you are flying. Flying a harmless industrial/freighter for example could give a +10 standing boost towards all factions. Flying a frigate could give a +5 boost. Flying a Tempest could give a -3 penalty towards Amarr and a +3 boost towards Minmatar. This way you still might be able to dock in Jita or Amarr Prime if you are flying a harmless civilian ship even with bad standings. Or you could avoid the response of Amarr Navy battleships by flying only a frigate (Rifter/Jaguar) deep into hostile space. This frigate would only be attacked in high-sec systems and only attacked by Navy frigates but would be ignored in low sec. The Tempest however would cause a different response from the Amarr Navy because it would be considered to be a greater threat. Again I think this can be tweaked that converted Minmatar still can fly for the Amarr Empire and visit Amarr Prime in their Tempest if their standing is good enough but it will be impossible for rebels with bad amarr standing doing the same.
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Arderich
Bruderschaft des Wahrhaftigen
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Posted - 2007.09.17 21:59:00 -
[170] - Quote
changing system sovereignity
I am afraid I can only see problems but no good solution. I like the approach of Guomindong in theory but I see problems because of not balanced numbers on the opposing sides of war. I hope not to see Caldari steamrolling over the universe in 2 weeks. I also fear it can only be balanced with some artificial crutches such as the weaker side getting more powerfull NPC wingmen in number and/or quality but then I fear situations such as 1:1 combat where the gallente always wins against the caldari because he has more powerfull wingmen by his side. If you must introduce wingmen then please dont give us Amarr wingmen that only do em damage, hehe. I hope not to see solutions that other MMOGs prefer such as restricted battlegrounds but as I have said I dont see a good solution myself. I like the possiblity to conquer hostile space but I just don't see a satisfying solution.
destroying stations
I hope it will be possible to destroy stations and outposts after you have controlled the system for a long timeframe such as 2-3 months. Same in 0.0. Most definitly I find Minmatar stations should no longer exist inside Amarr space and vice versa. Problem I see are jobs done in factory/lab slots, assets in hangars, agents. I think all this stuff should (mysteriously) survive and being transported to the next available station. I don't really see a problem here. I just see the opportunity to make the contract (transport) system being used (if it will be possible to allow larger m& in contracts to allow transport of ships with freighters).
small and big objectives all over the universe
I hope to see the whole universe as some kind of battleground - not only a few selected constellations in the border zone. From 0.0 to 1.0 core systems. Whereever you are your goal should be to protect your factions assets and territory or to attack player/NPC/ships/assets. With my idea of a 'terrace' like standing system it is possible to make high sec systems safer than low sec or 0.0 systems. People that think they are not ready for the big action in low sec border zones might participate in protecting high sec systems where only smaller hostile ships can enter. Instead of having a 'FW ON/OFF' button every player can choose how much risk he is willing to take by spending his FLP. I think there should be unsecured war targets in your factions high sec space such as ammunition facilities, training camps, transport convoys, energy collectors which are needed to support the battlestations in the border zones, etc that can be attacked by hostile frigates (big hostile ships would have huge problems to reach such systems because of NPC Navy). The difficult task for such hostile frigates should be to avoid/defeat other players who are allowed to fly bigger ships in their very own garden. This way even the 1 month old noob in his Maller can become a very valueable man if he protects such high sec installations against more experienced players who are penalized to fly smaller ships in hostile territory. I see opportunities not only for combat pilots but also for scouts and haulers (find the installation, rescue the war prisoners, steel prototype).
Big objectives should be where the big ships can be used, in the border zones. I would like to see really damn heavy battlestations (without passive shield recharge) with billions of HP so that it will need days or even weeks to bring them down. Sounds boring? I admit this idea could fail badly but it wouldnt do any harm. I envision a 'meeting' point where heavy combat occurs all the time. The defenders sometimes might have the time to remote repair the battlestation a bit (gain 1 LP for each 100 HP repaired), another time the attacker has great advantages in numbers (and gain 1 LP for each 1000dmg done), the next time the NPC Navy might come to protect the station.
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Arderich
Bruderschaft des Wahrhaftigen
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Posted - 2007.09.17 21:59:00 -
[171] - Quote
War is not only about pew pew
I think the logistics and intelligence should play an important role, too. The previously mentioned ammunition facilities in high sec space f.e. could respawn each downtime at a new location. In hostile space you might want a blockade runner/transport ship with your frigate sqaud to haul the war prisoners back to safety. Destroying one of those small unprotected energy collectors with your frigate in a hostile 0.6 could cause more damage to the battlestation in the 0.1 borderzone (and give you more reward in form of LP) than shooting at it directly with your dreadnought. In your own territory you might have to haul ice to the border zones to resupply the POS and battlestation or to supply the installations in high sec. Ice miners and haulers are badly needed to keep the war machine running. I liked the ideas of Patch86. I would like to see inter-factional trade becoming more important but at the same time a lot harder (f.e. shortage of nocxium in amarr space -> must be imported by neutral traders or stolen by amarrian frigate squads operating deep in Minmatar space).
pirates
Most of us agree that the majority of (heavy) combat should and will happen in low sec border zones. If I would be a pirate I now would smile and wait for lots of juicy targets entering low sec. At the same time I fear that FW could fail badly if most people still are afraid to enter low sec systems. On the other hand I certainly don't want to nerf the pirate profession even more. It is already reduced to some few gate camps. Belt pirating, solo combat is almost non existant. (This is a whole different topic. Just let me say I don't like some game mechanics such as increased HP or sentry guns because they encourage blobbing). I have no solution for the pirate problem, only one idea. Separate on map the ship destroyed view into two different views: ships legally destroyed (war between corps, FW) and ships illegal destroyed (those kills which gave a sec hit). This way it would be easier to determine if there is a FW battle going on or a pirate gate camp. This is by far no complete solution but at least one option to improve the situation.
channels - conversation
I think new channels (faction, region, constellation, special tasks) will be needed limited to those who fight for one faction. I guess the FW crowd will be highly unorganized. At the same time a fear an organized 0.0 alliance, if they join FW, could run over even 5000 empire based people with ease. Let's see what will happen...
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Arderich
Bruderschaft des Wahrhaftigen
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Posted - 2007.09.17 22:00:00 -
[172] - Quote
The following stuff is only a summery of previously described ideas in form of a short story and 'some' additional detailed explanations with numbers and stuff.
How would EVE look like wih those standing changes?
When Joe Amarr was a teenager and there was peace between the factions he heard stories about terrorists misusing the situation and bringing the terror right in front of the docking bay of the Emperor's station in Amarr Prime. They even were allowed to dock in the station some seconds after their attacks. The Yulai Convention made some really stupid laws, Joe thought. Today such a thing is no longer possible. Amarr Prime is a fortress. Pilots either have to have very good standings to reach this system flying warships or they have to fly civilian ships. Tempests became a rare sight in Amarr Prime. Only those with very high standings were allowed to enter the system. Usually they were flown by some Nefantar who made missions all their life for the Ammatar Mandate.
Joe Amarr got his pod liscence just a week ago. He wasn't sure if he was already strong enough to fight the big guys in the big ships in the border zone. He told his agent about his concerns and chose to only spend 3 of his 10 FLP for the Amarr Empire - for now. Instead of fighting in the heavy contested border zones where he had to fear he would be obliterated by big battleships, he patrolled some 0.7 - 0.8 systems with his Omen class cruiser where the rebels rarely broke through. If they did, they managed it only in small frigates. It was still a dangerous job. Some of those frigates were t2 fitted and often flown by the most experienced rebels. His Omen cruiser often had to fight against small interceptors such as the Claw. Without the Coercers by his side flown by his classmates who also just got their pod liscence he would have died even more often. But most of the time he was succesfull because they quickly had support from other pod pilots. Nobody wants rebel scum in core Amarrian systems. Many new facilities were intalled to supply the frontlines with new ships and ammo. Protection for this facilities is weak. The big guns are needed at the frontline. Frigate squads behind enemy lines can cause havoc to the infrastructure of the war machinery. Patrolling high sec systems was as much important for the war as fighting the big battles in the border zones.
After some time of service his skills became better. He also did some missions which increased his standings for the Amarr Empire. At the same time the rebels took notice of him as pod pilot and reported him as a growing threat to the Republic HQ. In the very beginning of his career before he talked to his agent he could fly to Pator with his Omen if he wanted to. This is no longer possible with his new standings. Now he would have to use a civilian ship like a shuttle or an industrial. But why would he want such a thing? He is not one of the neutral traders who lick everbodies ass for the right to trade. He knows his duty is to fight for God and Empire and he is proud that the Minmatar don't like him.
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Arderich
Bruderschaft des Wahrhaftigen
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Posted - 2007.09.17 22:01:00 -
[173] - Quote
Joe heard stories about one giant trade hub in Jita where everybody in the universe was doing their business. Today there are at least 4 trade hubs. One for each faction. And this hubs are no longer located in 1.0 systems. It is easier to trade in a 0.6 system because here more people have docking rights, because here the factory slots are cheaper and last but not least the taxes are lower. War taxes in high sec space killed the trade. In a 1.0 system factory slots are only affordable for those with the highest standings. Most of the time this slots are occupied by the Amarr Navy. Business in 1.0 would be completely dead if there wouldnt be this new reprocessing plants that have an improved refining rate for Veldspar. Some traders make some good profit because of this new situation. They import rare modules from hostile space. They haul tritanium from 1.0 systems to the new 0.6 trade hubs close behind the border zone. Most profit comes from trading in high end minerals. It makes a difference if one of the major alliances from 0.0 boycotts the Empire. Then it's time for those traders to import this minerals even from Minmatar space.
Then Joe met some likeminded Amarrians who were fighting the rebels in the border zone. He decided to join this group but with his limited liscence he was useless for this group. He had to show full dedication. He needed the full liscence to kill. So he went to his agent and spend all his FLP for the Empire swearing the oath to fight to death no matter what comes.
This was a great jump in his career. With his 10 FLP and his 5 points being an Amarr + his 3 points standings he made doing missions he now has a +18 standing towards the Empire allowing him to wear the title of a Chief Master Seargant. His corp member, a converted Brutor, even had a 5 amarr standing from doing missions and also spend all his 10 FLP for the Empire but he is missing 5 points for not being an Amarr and so he only reached the rank of Staff Seargent with his +15 Amarr standings. The Brutor however already had access to level 4 agents getting better missions and rewards while Joe still worked his way up doing level 3 missions.
His corp became famous in defending the amarrian border zone and more often they attacked rebel space. Fighting in hostile border zones was the same as defending their own border zone. But the fight over the systems was a stalemate. They had to stop the rebels supply lines if they wanted to be successfull. Their big and slow batteships which they have used with success in the big battles in the border zone were to slow to operate behind enemy lines, though. The Minmatar Ladar stations found them quick and send some Republic Fleet batteships to scramble and stop them. They might be able to kill the Republic Navy battleships with a few losses on their side but soon there were rebel pod pilots supporting their Navy. Brute force isn't working here. They have to use smaller ships to reach the Minmatar 0.6 system where they supposed a ammuntion facility. They reached the system and faced some heavy armed Stabbers obviously piloted by some minmatar rookies. He had to think how his carreer started. Will his shiny new Retribution hold and will he be able to kill those Stabbers and the ammunition facility?
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Arderich
Bruderschaft des Wahrhaftigen
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Posted - 2007.09.17 22:01:00 -
[174] - Quote
Edited by: Arderich on 17/09/2007 22:03:44
Numbers, tables, examples
ship standings
Flying a certain class/type of ship can increase or decrease your standings
classes:
Industrials/freighters give a +10 standing boost towards all factions
t1 frigates give a +7 standing boost towards all factions
t2 frigates give a +4 standing boost towards all factions
t1 destroyer give a +5 standing boost towards all factions
t2 destroyer don't give a standing boost
t1 cruisers don't give a standing boost
t2 cruisers give a -3 standing penalty towards all factions
t1 battlecruisers give a -3 standing penalty towards all factions
t2 battlecruisers give a -5 standing penalty towards all factions
t1 battleships give a -7 standing penalty towards all factions
t2 battleships give a -10 standing penalty towards all factions
(following numbers are only valid for war ships, not for civilian ships. They are only valid in friendly territory. I don't want to encourage Amarrians flying Minmatar ships while operating in enemy territory. I want to make it harder to fly foreign designs in friendly space. Work for the privilege)
types:
Hostile ship designs give a -3 standing penalty
Allied ship designs don't give a boost/penalty
Friendly ship designs give a +3 standing boost
Liscence to kill
You need a certain standing towards your chosen faction to be allowed to 'play the police'. This standings are not modified by the ship you are flying.
1 can attack in 1.0 home systems
2 can attack in 0.9 home systems
...
8 can attack in 0.3 home systems
9 can attack in 0.2 home systems
10 and above can attack valid war targets everywhere including hostile space.
valid war target
You are a valid war target in a system with a security rating X if your negative standing is Y. This standings are modified by the ship class you are flying, but not by the specific type. There is no difference between a Punisher or Rifter)
-10 and below can be attacked everywhere
-9 can be attacked in 0.1 and higher hostile systems
...
-2 can be attacked in 0.8 and higher hostile systems
-1 can be attacked in 0.9 and higher hostile systems
neutral can not be attacked
NPC Navy response
The hostile NPC Navy will attack you with different ship classes according to your negative standings. Your standing is modified by the ship class you are flying, not by type. You are a valid war target for Navy frigates in a system with a security rating X if your negative standing is Y.
-15 and below, frigates will attack you everywhere
-14 frigates will attack you in 0.1 systems
...
-6 frigates will attack you in 0.9 systems
-5 frigates will attack you in 1.0 systems
-17 and below, cruisers will attack you everywhere
-16 cruisers will attack you in 0.1 systems
...
-8 cruisers will attack you in 0.9 systems
-7 cruisers will attack you in 1.0 systems
-19 and below, battleships will attack you everywhere
-18 battleships will attack you in 0.1 systems
....
-10 battleships will attack you in 0.9 systems
-9 battleships will attack you in 1.0 systems
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Arderich
Bruderschaft des Wahrhaftigen
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Posted - 2007.09.17 22:02:00 -
[175] - Quote
a few examples
1.) Amarr Noob decides to fully commit himself for the cause of Amarr. He never had run missions before. He spends all 10 FLP for Amarr and gets a +10 for his FLP and +5 points for being Amarr. This results in +15 Amarr, -10 Minmatar, +7,5 Caldari, -7.5 Gallente standing. Flying an Executioner which gives a +5 boost towards all factions he becomes a valid PvP war target for Minmatar pod pilots with his -5 standing (-10 + 5 = -5) if he enters 0.5 or higher Minmatar Republic space. Republic Navy Will only attack him with frigates if he enters a 1.0 Minmatar system. Flying an Omen he becomes a valid PvP war target for Minmatar rebels everywhere. Republic Navy will attack him with frigates if he enters a 0.5 system. They attack him with cruisers if he enters a 0.7 system. They attack him with battleships if he enters a 0.9 system. Flying an industrial which gives a +10 boost resulting in a neutral Minmatar standing. He can fly unharmed whereever he wants.
2.) Jim Nefantar is a noob like Amarr Noob from the example above. He is of Minmatar orign, fighting for Amarr. He never had run missions before. He spends all 10 FLP for Amarr and thus gets a +10 for Amarr. This results in +10 Amarr, -10 Minmatar, +7,5 Caldari, -7.5 Gallente standing. He is not allowed to spend his 5 minmatar race points because he had chosen the amarrian side. He can do all the same just like Amarr Noob from the example above. His lower positive Amarr standing however doesn't enable him to have an equal rank compared to Amarr Noob. He will have to work harder to reach same ranks. Some ranks he will never be able to reach. He is allowed to fly a Tempest (-7penalty for Battleship, - 3 penalty for hostile design) in Amarr Prime.
3.)Mary Trader is a Gallente who had run many missions for the Amarr Empire in the past. She already has a +10 standing towards the Amarr Empire, a +7 standing towards Caldari, a -6 standing towards Minmatar and a -3 standing towards Gallente. She is tired of fighting and wants to make lots of profit instead. She spends 6 of her 10 FLP for Minmatar which results in a +4 Amarr standing (10-6), +4 for Caldari (7 - 6*0,5), +0 Gallente (-3 + 6*0,5), and 0 Minmatar (-6 + 6). Even without spending any FLP she would not have been a valid war target inside Minmatar space flying an industrial or freighter but she decided to do it this way so she could mine unharmed in other ships in amarrian ships. 4 of her 10 FLP she keeps save for future use. She would be allowed to fly t1 amarrian battleships in Amarr Prime. The biggest gallentean warship she would be allowed to fly in Amarr Prime would be a cruiser. Flying a Dominix would make her a valid war target for Amarrians if she enters 0.4 or higher amarrian systems.
4.) Bob Exrebel is a Minmatar who had seen the light of Amarr very late. He killed tons of Amarrians in the past and has a +10 Minmatar standing and a -7 Amarr standing. He spends all his FLP for Amarr resulting in a +3 Amarr standing and a neutral Minmatar standing. The Minmatar can't believe what they see and decide not to declare him as valid war target for now because of his neutral standing. The Amarr on the other hand don't trust him much. His +3 standing is granting him a liscence to kill only in 0.8 and higher systems. However he is not allowed flying big ships in this systems. The biggest ship he is allowed to fly in a amarrian 0.8 system would be an amarrian t2 battlecruiser. He could enter Amarr Prime with a t1 minmatar cruiser.
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Arderich
Bruderschaft des Wahrhaftigen
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Posted - 2007.09.17 22:02:00 -
[176] - Quote
5.) Jack Zealot is a fanatic Amarr who already has a +10 standing towards Amarr and a -7 standing towards Minmatar. He spends all his FLP for Amarr and is proud of his amarrian orign. This results in a +25 amarr standing and a -17 Minmatar standing. Rumours say he soon will reach the rank of an Admiral after doing some final tests of faith. Flying an industrial which gives a +10 boost towards all factions would allow him to enter 0.1 or 0.2 Minmatar systems unharmed. Flying a t1 fregate or bigger ships makes him a valid war target for Minmatar pod pilots everywhere. A Punisher would give a +5 boost resulting in a -12 minmatar standing. This means Republic Navy frigates will attack him as soon as he enters Minmatar 0.3 territory. If he enters a 0.5 Minmatar system Republic Navy cruisers will start to attack him. Republic Navy battleships would attack him as soon as he enters 0.7 systems.
asymetrical balance
If we look at the first 2 examples (Amarr Noob, Jim Nefantar) we can see both have the full liscence to kill everyhwere with their +10 and +15 Amarr standings. They are allowed to attack Minmatar whereever they want. On the other hand they could reach 0.4 Minmatar space while flying a t1 frigate not being a valid PvP target for Minmatar. This is intended! Any kind of gang participation, remote repping etc or attacking a hostile ship would change this of course. The intention is to simulate some kind of 'nobody cares for harmless rookies as long as they fly harmless ships' feeling. Let them have a look first. Give them the chance to decide for themself when to attack or when to hide. I envision small roaming frigate gangs of new players who can have some fun hunting unprotected haulers in enemy space or defending friendly territory not worrying too much about veterans in big ships. Not worrying about running into gang squads in friendly territory. Flying bigger ships than frigates would make such a thing a lot harder (impossible with this examples). Doing some missions for Amarr will change this very fast, too.
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Fergus Runkle
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.09.17 22:32:00 -
[177] - Quote
Originally by: CCP Ginger
Currently we forssee battles over low sec systems, fighting can occur everywhere but low sec will be the focal point of the too and fro initially.
Looking back over the problems Aurora had with people "events griefing", how are you going to stop those "Faction smartbomb" fitting Mothership's from sitting in systems where a FW "event" is on going and taking out everyone on all sides ?
Or does this come under "Eve is a harsh place and not even the Navies can stop Motherships" ?
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CCP Ginger
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Posted - 2007.09.17 22:43:00 -
[178] - Quote
Oh one thing we missed was that the standings requirements wont be against every individual in the corp, just the corporation as a whole.
The rest of the posts we will try to reply to tomorrow if we can. Thanks for the feedback and ideas guys, keep them coming please!
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Kell Braugh
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Posted - 2007.09.17 23:06:00 -
[179] - Quote
I didn't see it mentioned here, but I personally think it would be cool to log on one day, undock, and have two Faction Navies going at it. And even more cool would be the ability to join in on the spot. Why the need for agents, etc.
We all picked a side when deciding on our characters, so people asking for amnesty now--you made your choice--live with it!
I honestly think this is a great way to get the non-RP pilots to give in a little bit and immerse themselves.
I await the day when the war cry goes out on local to rally to troops and head to war!
---
I do understand though having a bunch of huge ships (i.e. 30-45 BBs going toe to toe) *might* cause some system lag, I only hope for the best. Just don't make it a Lvl-based mission thing-- the mission-type restrictions really hurt pilots who only later on in thier life start doing missions. Do you know how much it sucks to go from a Raven / Scorp / Drake daily setup to doing level one missions? Let *players* choose there level of play
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George K'ntara
Gallente
Pale Riders Incorporated
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Posted - 2007.09.18 00:43:00 -
[180] - Quote
Originally by: CCP Ginger
Originally by: Svetlana Scarlet
One note -- Ginger, you say in your blog that it will allow participation on a corporate or individual level, but what about on an alliance level? This would seem kind of imperative for entities like the CVA, Electus Matari, the Acheron Federation, and the Apex Conglomerate. I can certainly see how this could have been an oversight, but it's something that definitely needs to get addressed.
In the current design their is no mechanic for whole alliances joining factional warfare. However due to the additional time we have on this were going to be looking at ways to incorporate it effectively.
2 random ideas to make it possible to rasie standings from really low levels. One, role it into bounty hunting someway, because even a fraction that wouldn't trust you to fly a mission for them will still let you kill their criminals. This may include creating NPC targets for bounties or not. Two, be able to bribe your way to the point where you can start the more traditional route of building up standings.
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