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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
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GM Nova
Game Masters
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Posted - 2007.09.04 14:45:00 -
[1]
I want to sit down with you at an imaginary table, offer you some imaginary coffee and tell you about the GM work behind the tournament and allegations of favoritism. I and the team have spent aprox. 6 months creating and refining the rules being used in the Alliance Tournament. I was tasked with this assignment as I am knowledgeable on the game mechanics and I have good playing experience. Most importantly, I was tasked with this as I am very honest and impartial in my work, both as a GM and as the Tournament organizer. This also holds true for GM Xamother and the other GMs putting work into the tournament. You can not become a senior GM if you are not honest and impartial.
Being a referee in a tournament like this is very tricky. You have to make logical decisions and be as fair as you possibly can. The thing is, because we are not perfect, there can always be instances where there are no clear cut good decisions, where we have to use our good judgment to decide. Any rulings are discussed among the team in search of the best solution. In those cases, because we use a judgment call, there will be players who will feel that the judgment call is based on who we favor. This can not be further from the truth. We try to be as impartial and fair as possible. If we were to show any favoritism, not only would this event be at stake, but our very jobs. Some of you might think of EVE as a game. For us EVE is not only a game and our means to support our families, but a passion, an alternative reality which is real in every sense of the word.
We all care deeply for this game and it saddens me to hear accusations of favoritism and corruption. We all work hard to make this tournament enjoyable for everyone. There may be instances where we have to decide on two bad choices and choose the lesser bad. This is IĈm afraid the curse of management.
We are sorry for any mistakes we make and we will learn from them. We are immensely proud of this game and the maturity of our community and I truly hope through unity we can all maintain our high standards.
Yours,
GM Nova
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Myndpyre Ryche
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.09.04 14:54:00 -
[2]
I would like to speak with you in game, not on these forums. The trolls have enough food as it is.
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Big Pick
Caldari Task Force Ranger
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Posted - 2007.09.04 14:55:00 -
[3]
Very well said GM Nova. Thank you for all your hard work and dedication to the Eve community. I'm sorry for all of the flak you have received recently. I feel that it is totally unwarranted.
=====The Devs stole my sig, so they should make me a new one.===== |
Lydia Browm
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.09.04 14:58:00 -
[4]
Originally by: GM Nova I want to sit down with you at an imaginary table, offer you some imaginary coffee and tell you about the GM work behind the tournament and allegations of favoritism. I and the team have spent aprox. 6 months creating and refining the rules being used in the Alliance Tournament. I was tasked with this assignment as I am knowledgeable on the game mechanics and I have good playing experience. Most importantly, I was tasked with this as I am very honest and impartial in my work, both as a GM and as the Tournament organizer. This also holds true for GM Xamother and the other GMs putting work into the tournament. You can not become a senior GM if you are not honest and impartial.
Being a referee in a tournament like this is very tricky. You have to make logical decisions and be as fair as you possibly can. The thing is, because we are not perfect, there can always be instances where there are no clear cut good decisions, where we have to use our good judgment to decide. Any rulings are discussed among the team in search of the best solution. In those cases, because we use a judgment call, there will be players who will feel that the judgment call is based on who we favor. This can not be further from the truth. We try to be as impartial and fair as possible. If we were to show any favoritism, not only would this event be at stake, but our very jobs. Some of you might think of EVE as a game. For us EVE is not only a game and our means to support our families, but a passion, an alternative reality which is real in every sense of the word.
We all care deeply for this game and it saddens me to hear accusations of favoritism and corruption. We all work hard to make this tournament enjoyable for everyone. There may be instances where we have to decide on two bad choices and choose the lesser bad. This is IĈm afraid the curse of management.
We are sorry for any mistakes we make and we will learn from them. We are immensely proud of this game and the maturity of our community and I truly hope through unity we can all maintain our high standards.
Yours,
GM Nova
You are only Human it is natural to make mistakes as human beings, and also you can not reverse time to go back and "fix" your mistake. Thanks for the tournament so far :) ___________________________________________ Cookies if you hijack or sign my sig. There tasty... |
Frug
Zenithal Harvest
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Posted - 2007.09.04 15:19:00 -
[5]
It's nice to see you post something frank and honest rather than staying quiet. You'll probably get flamed though.
No reasonable person expects perfection from GMs, but (to me) some of what's happened just looks like it was handled badly. Most people weren't there to see things first hand, so we have to rely on forums. That information shows some mistakes and confusion followed by a complete lack of flexibility. The inflexibility is what bugged me most. Some stuff went wrong, people were penalized, and from here it looked like they were told to stfu and gtfo. That's not nice, when it was not entirely their fault.
Quote: We are sorry for any mistakes we make and we will learn from them.
People don't say that enough. Whatever happened, happened. Having the nerve to say that you even might have made mistakes is deserving of props.
I don't think any of the bigger alliances involved want to win in any way other than an honest, straight up beat down of their enemies. Allegations of favoritism are just the usual tinfoil. I wouldn't even give those allegations a second thought.
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles |
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.04 15:21:00 -
[6]
It'll do you good to keep in mind this:
Go watch a football match. Professional, experienced, full time and highly trained referees make decisions 100's of times each match. Without fail, they will be mercilessly (verbally, hopefully) ripped to shreds after the match.
It is nothing personal, and nothing new. People will always have a go at the ref in any sport. The fact people are accusing you of incompetence and favouritism is just a sign that this has become a real and authentic sport
Don't take it personally. You guys do as good a job as anyone can expect, and any mistakes are just that- mistakes. Learn from them, and get ready for the next one. ------
Originally by: CCP Prism X There's no such thing as playing too much EvE! You all obviously need more accounts! |
Jaegan
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.09.04 15:32:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Frug No reasonable person expects perfection from GMs, but (to me) some of what's happened just looks like it was handled...
Too quickly. Common element from my eyes, at least. The schedule may be partly to blame here. Matches too close, no room for make-up days - and if so that might be a good place to start looking at possible improvements - but it seems a slight delay while you consider things would be a much better solution than sparking yet another flamewar on the forums.
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Frug
Zenithal Harvest
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Posted - 2007.09.04 15:34:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Jaegan
Originally by: Frug No reasonable person expects perfection from GMs, but (to me) some of what's happened just looks like it was handled...
Too quickly. Common element from my eyes, at least. The schedule may be partly to blame here. Matches too close, no room for make-up days - and if so that might be a good place to start looking at possible improvements - but it seems a slight delay while you consider things would be a much better solution than sparking yet another flamewar on the forums.
That is exactly what I was thinking.
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles |
Shamis Orzoz
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.09.04 15:39:00 -
[9]
My only complaint so far was being warned that we would lose points if we did not leave the field immediately after the match. This was lame because the warning was given in gang chat, and all of us had gang chat minimized for the fight. This was also confusing because when our first fight ended, a gm warped us out of the arena so we didn't even know we had to do anything.
Here are some tips for GM's: - Once the team is in the match system, try to give most instructions in local, because not everybody will be looking at gang chat. - preface all instructions in local with either the arena number (1 or 2) or explicitly use the team names that you are referring to. - don't dock points or even threaten to dock points for things that have never been clearly stated in any of the rules and were yelled about in gang chat that NOBODY read.
Other than that I think the tourney has been pretty good, apart fromt he lack of looting, which is very lame.
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Papa Boats
The Flaming Sideburn's Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2007.09.04 16:00:00 -
[10]
Thank you Nova for the honesty. I do not feel that MC got any special treatment from any developer and deserves no flame wars from the match with my alliance. It saddens me to no end that the whole eve community missed out on what looked like a good match. What I do like is that we are hearing from GMs about what they are thinking. Ok my team and maybe MC had a misunderstanding about what was being broadcasted in local. My team was all fixed on local and not looking at gang chat as far as I know. Now we pop an MC ship you get put in a hard position to objectivly make a choice about what to do. Earler you had DQd goons for a mistake on bringing in to many points now by being nice to us it seems like you are playing favorites to everyone but goons. Now you have a flame war about how CCP hates goons. I hope all parties take a lesson from this and try and figure ways to prevent further misunderstandings from happening again. Good luck to all the remaining teams. Also MC thank you for taking the high road on this matter I hold you in high regard about the entire tournament and look forward to hopefully meeting you in next years tourny.
This is my personall opinion flame me and my illiteracy if you must and no one else in my alliance for what I have said.
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Masu'di
Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2007.09.04 16:15:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Papa Boats Thank you Nova for the honesty. I do not feel that MC got any special treatment from any developer and deserves no flame wars from the match with my alliance. It saddens me to no end that the whole eve community missed out on what looked like a good match. What I do like is that we are hearing from GMs about what they are thinking. Ok my team and maybe MC had a misunderstanding about what was being broadcasted in local. My team was all fixed on local and not looking at gang chat as far as I know. Now we pop an MC ship you get put in a hard position to objectivly make a choice about what to do. Earler you had DQd goons for a mistake on bringing in to many points now by being nice to us it seems like you are playing favorites to everyone but goons. Now you have a flame war about how CCP hates goons. I hope all parties take a lesson from this and try and figure ways to prevent further misunderstandings from happening again. Good luck to all the remaining teams. Also MC thank you for taking the high road on this matter I hold you in high regard about the entire tournament and look forward to hopefully meeting you in next years tourny.
This is my personall opinion flame me and my illiteracy if you must and no one else in my alliance for what I have said.
I think that pretty much sums up all our feelings on the matter. Thanks for posting this Papa. I don't think me, or anyone else from our alliance needs to add anything more.
Es and Whizz is recruiting |
Mitchman
Omniscient Order Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.09.04 16:18:00 -
[12]
Introduce an appeal process:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=588135&page=1#19
If the people handling the appeal agrees with the original decision, then noone can really say any single person is biased. If they decided to overturn the decision, lower the penalty or maybe even increase the penalty, the players will atleast know that it's not just a decision by any one man. The process of appealing, time limits etc. should be clearly laid out in the rules.
New video: Pride, Honor & Retribution
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Popperr
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.09.04 16:46:00 -
[13]
The tournaments been great so far.
I just don't get why the same offences are being punished differently.
At best you can assume it's a mistake because all the other reasons (Bias and ineptitude) are unsavoury. It seems like if you make a mistake just correct it afterwards. Not doing so is just feeding the rumor mill and making everyone look bad.
Originally by: NO BRAKES
Originally by: CCP t20 post with your main
I guess we've all had trouble with alts.
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Dez Erichs
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.09.04 17:44:00 -
[14]
Originally by: GM Nova We are sorry for any mistakes we make and we will learn from them. We are immensely proud of this game and the maturity of our community and I truly hope through unity we can all maintain our high standards.
That is all that we can ask. Thanks for all your efforts, and keep up the good work! --- PvP Training: www.agony-unleashed.com "I <3 XxAngelxX" ;) |
Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2007.09.04 17:47:00 -
[15]
What's your contact info? I've mailed you twice without a reply, got a petition in, nothing there either.
Also Known As |
dev1lwoman
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Posted - 2007.09.04 17:58:00 -
[16]
Firstly thank you for your honesty and openess a refreshing change.. Secondly thank you for admitting mistakes have been made, no-one expects you guys to be super infalliable beings.
The only real problem arises is when mistakes or error of judgements are made is how to correct them.
they is an opportunity to correct what is seen as the 2 major GM errors made so far in this tourney.
Give all the contestants in the Goon and Hedonistic fights 48 hours notice of rescheduled matchesand allow the payers on all the teams to do what they want to do most, FIGHT
It can be done, if only the willingness to correct the mistakes are there on the part of the team organising,
again, thanks for your candour and I hope tat you are willing to take that honesty further and allow the tournament to proceed in the spirit it is inteneded
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Mister Spanky
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.09.04 18:39:00 -
[17]
I don't believe any of the disputed decisions were malicious or corrupt. The problem is that they were made far too quickly and the punishments were different for people who made the same mistakes. The Goons were instantly disqualified for accidentally bringing 109 points to the fight while the day before another team did the same thing and only got a 50 point penalty. No matter what the end result of that 50 point penalty was, the difference in the punishment gives the impression of bias, even if no bias was present.
Then of course there's the disappointment people feel when they don't get to see fights they've been looking forward to. Simple mistakes could be rectified easily before the start of the fight and if that is not possible then perhaps in future it might be a good idea to allow the fights to proceed even if a rule violation has been spotted and leave any decision until afterwards, even if this means having to DQ the winning team. At least that way everyone gets to see the fight.
Despite the complaints and terrible judging decisions I'm sure everyone can agree that CCP have put a lot of effort into this competition and it's a shame to see it being spoiled by these unfair and unbalanced calls from the referees.
I'd like to thank everyone involved in the organization of this and previous Tournaments and assure you that we do appreciate your efforts. It's your GM's that are letting you down.
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Zeoliter
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.09.04 18:56:00 -
[18]
Unfortunately I have to agree with Monsieur Spanky. IC's offence was same as Goons except it went unnoticed. As the Goons got disqualified IC should also have plainly forfeited the match after the fact.
But just remember that people like winning and hate losing and unfortunately people have an open forum to whine in. Most sane people will realise there is no favouritism and people touting that card are simply bitter and/or don't know all the details. I can't believe people take a game so seriously to be honest. This forum actually takes away part of the enjoyment of the game. Sucks. :(
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Winterblink
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.09.04 20:03:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Zeoliter This forum actually takes away part of the enjoyment of the game. Sucks. :(
One could apply that statement to the forums as a whole, and easy append that it's been on a downward spiral for a couple of years now.
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Yosarian
Hand Of The Tahiri Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.09.04 20:46:00 -
[20]
Well put and from the heart. The job you and your team has been doing is outstanding, a real first in online gaming history, the professionalism and quality of the end result is first rate. Be proud of what you have done, very very proud, no one on this earth (or in any other imaginary world) has done it before. Do not let a few negative voices sap your energy and motivation. Frankly I'm blown away at how utterly cool it is!
Bear this in mind: those who take risks and take the hard road are most vulnerable to criticism, but the criticism that you receive comes from those who know no better and hide behind cynicism. Pity them, and don't let their poisoned words eat into you. They know not what they do. They are angry children and strike out because of themselves, not you.
Complete respect to you. I and I know thousands upon thousands of others support you and wish you the best. Let the rest of the tournament rock! It's been incredible so far :)
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Turix
Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.09.04 20:53:00 -
[21]
I understand your situation totally, but your total lack of consistency in the response to the mistakes that have been made is worrying.
In the real world, yes decisions need to be made snap and instant. But in a virtual world where you can technically pause all events and reverse everything - going back to review the situation is a MUST. Dont rush decisions and create these situtions because of a time frame.
/Turix
| Image Hosting | My Movies | |
Zajo
The Corporation Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.09.04 22:37:00 -
[22]
Nova, thank you for the response. I believe it's not easy being a judge in a game where everyone has an oppinion and are willing to voice them, good or bad. I however trust that you GM's understand that we do react when we see rulings being delt out unfairly and I hope you take our worries and questions seriously. I also hope to see a response soon regarding a few issues that has been mentioned in the Independent Gaming Commission thread.
We all make mistakes, even GM's so please don't let all the smack get to you. Overall you'r doing a great job and I for one (ofc a huge amount more) would get extremly dissappointed if the tourney did not continue.
Regards Zajo -----------------------------------------------
http://www.climatecrisis.net
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Imperius Blackheart
Caldari Trinity Nova KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.04 22:47:00 -
[23]
Nova sir, you have done a great job, thank you for the time and effort you have put it, its been a really entertaining torney and the rules are much better this time.
There is a vocal group of whiners but generally people don't jump and down and scream when they are happy with stuff, so don't let em get to you too much.
And with regards to the rulings which have caused upset, if anything i'm happy to see they have stuck, like any sport a umpire or referee may make mistakes, and fans will call them every name under the sun, but its easy to do with hindsight, the fact is that the rules have to be enforced and you guy have been doing that.
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Lord XSiV
Amarr Digital Research - Omega Protocol
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Posted - 2007.09.05 00:24:00 -
[24]
As an observer of the tourny, I don't see anything wrong with the officiating - it has been quite balanced considering you have some of the most coniving player entities involved. Bravo to the GMs so far.
If anything they have been a bit too leniant, for exmaple the teams that intentionally brought too many points into the arena should have been banned from the tournament and not just forfeited the match. It isn't like it is the same as a 'too many men on the ice' penalty in hockey - they were knowingly breaking the rules. Now the counter to the argument would be that they are incapable of basic math and therefore have no place in the tourny anyhow.
Whiners will always complain about officiating; it is just a fact of sport. (Well it is less relevant in North American sports such as baseball and football than 'European/world' sports such as soccer or lawn bowling since skill and athletics are more important than theatrics). The thing is that the whinage is only for a short while to help sooth the emotional bruising of the loosing fan. Afterall, the thing worse than being a loser is that of being a fan of a loser. Yes the aforementioned was intended to rile up a whole bunch of people which is half the fun of forum posting.
Anyhow, I hope the improvements keep coming as it is nice to see a good representation of the game. Also nice to see the new comentators, especially female players (although I kind of worry for Angel that Trividian doesn't snap as a result of eternal geekness syndrome) and also Spiral starting to get more comfortable in his role. Stavros at least changed his pants from last time and Verone is quite on the ball giving jamesw a run for his money. Screwups are going to happen in commentating so people shouldn't be so quick to be judgmental. Afterall, it isn't like the critics ever have a chance of being something special so do what the rest of society does - ignore them.
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unhealthyman
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.09.05 00:47:00 -
[25]
It is important to make it clear that there is a difference between mindless trolling and people who happen to have a difference of opinion. There has (in my opinion) not been that much trolling in this forum. As everyone knows, obvious trolls are best ignored. However people have raised concerns which at least have some credit. There haven't been any credible claims of favoritism or corruption, but more concerns about hasty and overly harsh calls which have negatively impacted the overall tone and enjoyment of the tournament.
The second point is that transparency really helps to smooth over problems. If the process of the matches and the rules are known by all there is much less scope for people to complain. Imagine in something like football, if only the referees have access to the rulebook then all the observers will be continually confused by various calls.
Anyway, from what I can tell the whole tournament seems to be going pretty well and I've enjoyed watching it on eveTV. It's kinda like sports for geeks.
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unhealthyman
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.09.05 00:53:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Lord XSiV
If anything they have been a bit too leniant, for exmaple the teams that intentionally brought too many points into the arena should have been banned from the tournament and not just forfeited the match. It isn't like it is the same as a 'too many men on the ice' penalty in hockey - they were knowingly breaking the rules. Now the counter to the argument would be that they are incapable of basic math and therefore have no place in the tourny anyhow.
That is patently untrue. The reason goons brought one too many pilots was because several people disconnected soon before the fight, and (as is sensible planning) a backup pilot was invited to the gang. In the confusion trying to get the gang sorted after the disconnects an extra person was invited. In our first first we had 10 ships, so in our second match having 10 didn't look too out of place (however the different ship set up meant we were meant to have 9.) The goon competitors were ready and prepared in Jita before the match and a random disconnect (which we all know and love) caused the confusion.
Preparing for a fight is a pretty hectic time and what with assembling the right people and ships, recounting up points with only a couple of minutes left to go is not a priority.
Anyway, this is enough of a derail.
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Farscape Hw
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.09.05 05:02:00 -
[27]
i would like to be able to loot at least our own wrecks. some of the named t1 mods we are using cost 15+ mill each. if time is the issue here, why not make a couple more beacons for more battlefields.
but like ive said b4. thank you for the tournament. i know you dont have to do this for us, and we all are enjoying it regardless of the idiots who spam these forums with thier alts.
the no talk in local rule is kinda silly though. maybe have a rule saying we can say "good fight" and ask questions to the gms in local since we really dont pay attention to gang chat. but nothing more.
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Pizi
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.09.05 07:12:00 -
[28]
first let me say i love the tourney so far the new rules you tinkered are great alows some turtle matches and on the other hand total anihilation within a few minutes
that said where humans there are errors if you need to decide within seconds or minutes, just look at real sports but what i dont understand is why you need to decide within a sec just mark fishy games as under investigation and sit down on mondey and decide the action taken
you have every tools to view most things again thanks to eve TV theres really no need in most cases to decide on the fly
that said , i wish you good luck with the rest and futher tourments !
_______________________________________________ EVEpedia[Deutsch/German] add
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Kirenna Zhon
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Posted - 2007.09.05 07:13:00 -
[29]
Part of making mistakes is not just saying "Whoops! We're human, so we make mistakes. We promise not to do it again!" and actually going back over what is in contention and making up for them. There's time, trust me.
In American Football, there are cameras in various portions of the field which record everything. A referee makes a judgement call, and if need be, the coaches can contest it. At that point, the referees go over the footage and watch the play in question and make a new ruling.
All the mature people are asking for is that you not say that mistakes were made, but to actually go over each point of contention (there aren't that many, really), and make point adjustments as necessary. If that means that IAC and HI get to have matches, then let them have their matches. But making mistakes, saying that they happened, and then doing nothing about them is no better than pretending they didn't exist.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.09.05 11:04:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Lord XSiV As an observer of the tourny, I don't see anything wrong with the officiating - it has been quite balanced considering you have some of the most coniving player entities involved. Bravo to the GMs so far.
If anything they have been a bit too leniant, for exmaple the teams that intentionally brought too many points into the arena should have been banned from the tournament and not just forfeited the match. It isn't like it is the same as a 'too many men on the ice' penalty in hockey - they were knowingly breaking the rules. Now the counter to the argument would be that they are incapable of basic math and therefore have no place in the tourny anyhow.
Whiners will always complain about officiating; it is just a fact of sport. (Well it is less relevant in North American sports such as baseball and football than 'European/world' sports such as soccer or lawn bowling since skill and athletics are more important than theatrics). The thing is that the whinage is only for a short while to help sooth the emotional bruising of the loosing fan. Afterall, the thing worse than being a loser is that of being a fan of a loser. Yes the aforementioned was intended to rile up a whole bunch of people which is half the fun of forum posting.
Anyhow, I hope the improvements keep coming as it is nice to see a good representation of the game. Also nice to see the new comentators, especially female players (although I kind of worry for Angel that Trividian doesn't snap as a result of eternal geekness syndrome) and also Spiral starting to get more comfortable in his role. Stavros at least changed his pants from last time and Verone is quite on the ball giving jamesw a run for his money. Screwups are going to happen in commentating so people shouldn't be so quick to be judgmental. Afterall, it isn't like the critics ever have a chance of being something special so do what the rest of society does - ignore them.
oo really? By your line we should ban everybody, because at least in one fight there were excessive numbers and no one was able to count it until after the fight, including GMs, EVE tv staff, both teams everybody. If they can make a mistake why cannot others?
Soem teams made mistakes and were harshly penalized (even when was easy to correct), why does anyoen expect people to simply ignore when GM have made same mistakes and even others? Same face of the coin for all parts involved please.
I want to watch fights not forfeits, want problems detected before the fights to be SOLVED, not fight forfeited.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
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