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thesedit
Gallente Sovereigns of Destiny
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Posted - 2007.08.23 17:48:00 -
[1]
I have just spent a ludicrous amount of money (for poor little me) on my home cinema setup (which if you're interested I've detailed below) and I have hit a point where I do not know which road to take. Do I back Toshiba and their cheaper, but equally high quality, HD-DVD format or do I join the Sony bandwagon and buy a Blu-Ray player of some description.
Thus far, I am here:
Television: Panasonic Viera TX-32LXD700 Primary Source: SKY HD Receiver: Onkyo TX-SR605 Receiver (HDMI 1.3) Separates: Mission e80 (5.1) system Recorded Source: Toshiba HD-XE1 (HDMI 1.3) -or- <place doubly expensive (though similarly spec'd) Blu-Ray player here>
I'll start off by saying I've got an XBOX 360 and so I do have the option of purchasing the relatively inexpensive HD-DVD drive that I can just attach to the console. I won't be doing this however, since the noise output of the HD-DVD drive when combined with the fan noise of the 360 is ludicrous. Much the same is with the PS3, and so therefore I won't be purchasing one for this function.
A month a go I would have said Blu-Ray was going to be the dominant format with more studios backing it than HD-DVD (which had no exclusives only dual format releases) and I would have just gone out and bought the Sony S1E. Now, however, the tide seems to have turned. With Paramount Pictures and Dreamworks Animations now HD-DVD exclusive there are many films to be released over the next 12 months that people are going to have to start thinking about. Transformers, for example, is now HD-DVD exclusive.
Blu-Ray certainly does have more films to it's name. It also has more studios. Warner Brothers release all their films in both formats, but only Paramount & Dreamworks SKG (not including Spielburg films which are publish on both) are HD-DVD exclusive. Sony, Universal, MGM, Disney and many others, however, are all Blu-Ray exclusive... for now. Blockbuster also no longer stock HD-DVDs due to their sales showing Blu-Ray rentals were far outnumber HD-DVD. But this is surely only down to the recent launch of the PS3. As this slows down, the 2:1 sales of HD-DVD:Blu-Ray players will surely shift in Toshiba's favour? No?
Argh!!!
Now we come to the features. All HD-DVD players are net enabled and built to a standard as set down when HD-DVD was launched. Blu-Ray players on the other hand vary with features machine to machine. What this means is that in the future, some Blu-Ray releases may have features which will only work on certain machines. Obviously the feature film and soundtrack should be unaffected, but the fact that the machines don't actually describe their abilities in full and you have to refer to websites to find out I don't think that;s a good way to go about business. How do I know they aren't going to add more new features in the future which will make my 2007 player totally redundant?
HD-DVD holds just 30GB as opposed to Blu-Ray's 50GB, but does this really make much difference? On the highest quality compression rate used today, that puts the HD-DVD capability at over 4 hours of video. Do I need any more? And even if we have a 3 hour film that still leave ample room for Hi-Def PiP director's commentary. And if worst comes to worst, just slap in a Disk 2. We do it now, and it many cases it's done even if there IS enough room on the DVD. In fact, 2 HD-DVDs have a lower production cost than ONE Blu-Ray disk!
As you may be able tot tell I am definitely leaning more towards HD-DVD than Blu-Ray for several reasons, but I am right in doing so. At least the HD-DVD boxes look nicer...
Please post your opinions; any suggestions or guidance is much appreciated.
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Fink Angel
Caldari The Merry Men
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Posted - 2007.08.23 18:07:00 -
[2]
Buy Blu Ray, 'cos I've already gone down that road and want it to win!
I'm pretty sure they won't be shooting themselves in the foot with menus etc. that don't work on some players. Sure it's Java based, but they have fixed a standard, I'm pretty sure of that.
I've got a PS3 going via HDMI into a Samsung LE40M87BD, and it's marvelous. Full 1920*1080 progressive and at 24FPS from a Blu Ray disc.
Fans in the PS3 are very very quiet, compared to the X-Box 360 that I wouldn't use to play a DVD on, let alone spend extra to make it work with HD-DVD. Also the PS3 makes a great job of upscaling all your current DVD's and outputing to your TV at 1920*1080.
Whatever happens, dual format players will eventually become the norm I think, unless one standard clearly wins, say, within a year.
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.08.23 18:09:00 -
[3]
Blu-Ray is going to lose, primarily because the pron industry is going to HD-DVD. But its going to be a long time (years) before it becomes another Betamax. Its going to be a long war.
Both formats are evil: Blu-Ray is backed by Sony, and HD-DVD by Microsoft.
Personally, I would wait until a drive that can handle both is down to a few hundred dollars. Until then, you know where to get your high-def movies
23 Member
EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder! |
Cornucopian
Gallente Dutch Omega United Freemen Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.23 18:10:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Cornucopian on 23/08/2007 18:11:22 Edited by: Cornucopian on 23/08/2007 18:10:55
Originally by: Dark Shikari Blu-Ray is going to lose, primarily because the pron industry is going to HD-DVD. But its going to be a long time (years) before it becomes another Betamax. Its going to be a long war.
Both formats are evil: Blu-Ray is backed by Sony, and HD-DVD by Microsoft.
Personally, I would wait until a drive that can handle both is down to a few hundred dollars. Until then, you know where to get your high-def movies
lol, by that reasoning toshiba is the evil king: it manufactures for both!
----------------------------------------------- "post with your main. delete your alt, you sad little exploiting metagamer." |
Sleepkevert
Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.08.23 18:40:00 -
[5]
Originally by: thesedit HD-DVD holds just 30GB as opposed to Blu-Ray's 50GB, but does this really make much difference? On the highest quality compression rate used today, that puts the HD-DVD capability at over 4 hours of video. Do I need any more? And even if we have a 3 hour film that still leave ample room for Hi-Def PiP director's commentary.
Nope, you won't need anymore, a hi-def 2 hour movie, easily fits within 20 GB. Even with all the HD audio added. As for technology, they are a close match, and you won't be able to see a difference in video quality for the first couple of years (don't think they will both survive long) And as you said, costs of the normal disks are an issue. I would also go with HD-DVD, just because it's cheaper...
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.23 18:47:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Dark Shikari Blu-Ray is going to lose, primarily because the pron industry is going to HD-DVD.
Who buys pron these days? --------
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thesedit
Gallente Sovereigns of Destiny
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Posted - 2007.08.23 19:24:00 -
[7]
Well I am definitely siding more with the Toshiba player, especially with it's HDMI 1.3 compatibility. The video quality on my TV won't be affected since no TVs have to 1.3 hardware, but at least the sound will be better with the compatible receiver.
Are there any super-multi Hi-Def players around yet?
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GPerson
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2007.08.23 19:33:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Patch86
Originally by: Dark Shikari Blu-Ray is going to lose, primarily because the pron industry is going to HD-DVD.
Who buys pron these days?
Someone has to scan them.
~~~Sig Stuffs Here~~~ I highly recommend drunken posting. This sig has been unhighjacked since 2005. |
Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.08.23 19:44:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 23/08/2007 19:45:15
Originally by: Sleepkevert
Originally by: thesedit HD-DVD holds just 30GB as opposed to Blu-Ray's 50GB, but does this really make much difference? On the highest quality compression rate used today, that puts the HD-DVD capability at over 4 hours of video. Do I need any more? And even if we have a 3 hour film that still leave ample room for Hi-Def PiP director's commentary.
Nope, you won't need anymore, a hi-def 2 hour movie, easily fits within 20 GB. Even with all the HD audio added.
Yup... the extra bitrate is absolutely meaningless at that point.
And if you really wanted to you could fit 50 hours of HD video on an HD-DVD at good quality.
23 Member
EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder! |
Soren
PAK
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Posted - 2007.08.23 20:59:00 -
[10]
Blu-ray sounds cooler... just go with it ☠-->-->--
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Trek
Minmatar N.A.G.A Corporation
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Posted - 2007.08.24 00:52:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Dark Shikari Blu-Ray is going to lose, primarily because the pron industry is going to HD-DVD.
I would have agreed with you, but not too long ago Sony & co changed the policy on not printing any pron blue ray disks. So I'm not so sure that argument holds true any more.
Still I would go for blue ray instead of hd-dvd, if nothing else because Sony is a lot less evil than M$. But that is only personal preferences. --- My other ship is a Reaper
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Judas Lonestar
Ganja Labs Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.24 02:01:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Judas Lonestar on 24/08/2007 02:02:27
Originally by: Dark Shikari Blu-Ray is going to lose, primarily because the pron industry is going to HD-DVD. But its going to be a long time (years) before it becomes another Betamax. Its going to be a long war.
Both formats are evil: Blu-Ray is backed by Sony, and HD-DVD by Microsoft.
Personally, I would wait until a drive that can handle both is down to a few hundred dollars. Until then, you know where to get your high-def movies
Sony has allowed pron to go to Blu-Ray. Japan got rights....last week maybe?
That said, Blu-Ray. Its a superior format. Yes its Sony, but Sony didnt go it alone. Blu Ray was developed by many large players in the industry.
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Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.24 02:08:00 -
[13]
tbh I think the final nail in the coffin will be when they put a hybrid recorder on market ---
truth about EVE: Quote: "Guns are fine, boost players"
Quote: "Players are fine, boost guns"
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Frezik
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2007.08.24 03:23:00 -
[14]
Stick with DVDs and wait for a clear winner in the HD war.
Originally by: Dark Shikari Both formats are evil: Blu-Ray is backed by Sony, and HD-DVD by Microsoft.
The difference is that Sony is betting the company on Blu-Ray, while if HD-DVD fails, Microsoft will just shrug its shoulders and move on.
Although I think Blu-Ray is a technically superior format, the Blu-Ray+ DRM will be a bigger headache to break than AACS (not impossible, just harder and more tedious). So HD-DVD all the way!
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.08.24 03:29:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Frezik Stick with DVDs and wait for a clear winner in the HD war.
Originally by: Dark Shikari Both formats are evil: Blu-Ray is backed by Sony, and HD-DVD by Microsoft.
The difference is that Sony is betting the company on Blu-Ray, while if HD-DVD fails, Microsoft will just shrug its shoulders and move on.
Yup.
HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are like H.264 and VC-1.
H.264 and HD-DVD are standards jointly agreed upon by tons of companies, in the interest of making all of them profit. As such they aren't designed to specifically benefit one company over others. They aren't designed in the interest of the consumer, but that's to be expected.
VC-1 (WMV9 Advanced Profile, the other modern codec used for HD movies) and Blu-Ray are standards that, while technically agreed on by a standards group, are really pushed by one company (Microsoft for VC-1 and Sony fro Blu-Ray). They're designed to benefit specifically that company.
23 Member
EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder! |
James Swindle
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Posted - 2007.08.24 03:48:00 -
[16]
screw both of them so we can all keep our DVD collections!!!
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thesedit
Gallente Sovereigns of Destiny
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Posted - 2007.08.24 20:18:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Grimpak tbh I think the final nail in the coffin will be when they put a hybrid recorder on market
Went into John Lewis today (large British department store) and they had an LG super-multi Hi-Def player for ú999. On looking at the box is seemed to play HD-DVD to 1080p and Blu-Ray to 1080i.
As for other people's comments on Microsoft being evil... MS have had very little to do with HD-DVD's production or research. They simply back the format. Also, HD-DVD players from my research ALL appear to be internet ready, fully standardized and pretty much guaranteed to work with all features future and present. Sadly the same can't be said for Blu-Ray which has once again released a new set of standards for use from 09/07. Also, full HD audio isn't accessible from any blu-ray players AT ALL at the moment, whereas the latest Toshiba HD-DVD player with HDMI 1.3a hardware has a FAR faster max bitrate and supports all forms of Hi-Def video and Audio transfer with the speed.
I think the only player which matches the toshba HD-DVD is the PS3. I guess that's why, excluding the PS3, HD-DVD players are outselling Blu-Ray players 2:1.
I think the nail in the coffin for Blu-Ray may actually be on it's way already. HD-DVDs are made from identical materials as standard DVDs. What this means is that one side of the disc (even dual layer) can be HD-DVD, and the reverse can be standard DVD. This means everybody doesn't need to buy two versions of every film or shed out on 3 Hi-Def players for all their TVs.
I realise I started this thread, but I really have come to realise that HD-DVD is the most likely to win on specification and capabilities. Especially with the 50GB disks on their way. Regardless, I'm still going to wait and see how things pan out over the next month or so. I think I'll be likely to invest mid-October. Let's hope there is a decent quality dual format player out by then.
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Ragnarohk
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.08.25 04:46:00 -
[18]
I'm hoping by the time dust settles and a winner emerges, people may have clued on and provided a pure digital service which doesn't require you to have shelves of discs. Unlikely though, and if it does, it's going to be crippled far more than shop versions, even though the DRM is already insane enough on those.
So where does that leave your options?
Pay the man the money, get the product for happiness? I guess it achieves a clearer conscience, but having the actual product in your possession is no defence in court. (Where the opposing side will claim for have lost several billion dollars and a small African country due to your RAMPANT UNAMERICANISM.)
The entire situation doesn't bother me too much. Can you name any recently released big-studio high quality movies? I can't. I honestly can't find anything worth spending ú7 + snacks ($14) to go to the cinema, or enough to spend ú20 RRP ($40) on a DVD / BR / HDDVD. That's without considering the sunken costs of the fancy television, audio and player.
There's a few shows I torrent which either: 1. Are part of the BBC so in a sense I've already paid for it anyway, how I consume it is up to me. 2. Arn't available to me here. 3. Will take for no reason what so ever, 8 months to translate across the pond. Y'know, because they have to dub "English" over the "American speaking" actors. That must be it.
In general though, mass entertainment has become so asinine to me I just don't enjoy it, so why bother? After all here in the UK, we're on what? Big Brother series 12 if you count the "celebrity" editions? This program runs an entire national channel essentially for a few months every year, and obviously it sells or they wouldn't push it continuously. I know it sounds elitist and pompous on my part, but I can find no better way of phrase it.
Right, rant over, sorry about that.
-Rag
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Tenerhaddi
Dark Skyes
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Posted - 2007.08.25 13:59:00 -
[19]
HDD-DVD? I would say thats the best one to get. Like someone said pron more to HDD and other films etc would go to that. blue ray just sound ***! ----------------
http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1771556
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.08.25 14:12:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 25/08/2007 14:11:48
Originally by: Ragnarohk I'm hoping by the time dust settles and a winner emerges, people may have clued on and provided a pure digital service which doesn't require you to have shelves of discs.
ThePirateBay provides such a service!
23 Member
EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder! |
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Soren
PAK
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Posted - 2007.08.25 14:37:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Ragnarohk I'm hoping by the time dust settles and a winner emerges, people may have clued on and provided a pure digital service which doesn't require you to have shelves of discs.
people like to have something they can touch ☠-->-->--
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smashsmash
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Posted - 2007.08.25 15:34:00 -
[22]
the disappointing thing about all that DRM junk is that having the actual item doesn't mean you have as much flexibility as you use to. i was shocked and dismayed when i bought Half-Life 2 and needed an internet connection to play the single player game. i've finally managed to warm up to the idea that the physical disk doesn't mean you can play HL 2 on any computer without an internet connection.
Originally by: Soren
Originally by: Ragnarohk I'm hoping by the time dust settles and a winner emerges, people may have clued on and provided a pure digital service which doesn't require you to have shelves of discs.
people like to have something they can touch
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jbob2000
Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.25 16:34:00 -
[23]
HD-DVDs can be played on linux, Paramount and Dreamworks support HD-DVD, Michael Bay (Transformers) supports HD-DVD... ________________________________
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Saiyar
Infinitus Morti R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.08.26 21:42:00 -
[24]
Your best bet at the moment is to buy a good upscalling DVD player. If you have a PS3 buy BD and if you have a 360 get HD-DVDs (since the add on is only $170). The format war itself looks like it will be drawn out till atleast 2009.
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Dred 'Morte
Winds of Dawn Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.29 11:11:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 25/08/2007 14:11:48
Originally by: Ragnarohk I'm hoping by the time dust settles and a winner emerges, people may have clued on and provided a pure digital service which doesn't require you to have shelves of discs.
ThePirateBay provides such a service!
Yarr!
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Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.08.29 15:55:00 -
[26]
both suck =P wait till the fight is over then buy whoever is left
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Reiisha
Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2007.08.29 18:51:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Dark Shikari Blu-Ray is going to lose, primarily because the pron industry is going to HD-DVD. But its going to be a long time (years) before it becomes another Betamax. Its going to be a long war.
Both formats are evil: Blu-Ray is backed by Sony, and HD-DVD by Microsoft.
Personally, I would wait until a drive that can handle both is down to a few hundred dollars. Until then, you know where to get your high-def movies
I really doubt the size of the pron industry is comparable, relatively, to how it was with the betamax/vhs war. If they play a part it'll be pretty small at best.
Technically, blu-ray is simply better, as far as i've understood it from the specs. HDDVD is simply a super-dense CD, like a DVD is a dense CD. Blu-ray still runs on the same principle, but slightly different, and with much more room for improvement.
HDDVD tech will simply stop within a year. That's the classic CD at it's peak. Blu-ray on the other hand will probably turn into a starting point for the next big medium.
It would be rather dimwitted to go hd-dvd exclusive at this point. I can only expect that the media buffs will see that too, especially once blu-ray becomes a bit cheaper.
EVE History Wiki
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Derovius Vaden
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Posted - 2007.08.29 18:58:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Dark Shikari Blu-Ray is going to lose, primarily because the pron industry is going to HD-DVD. But its going to be a long time (years) before it becomes another Betamax. Its going to be a long war.
Both formats are evil: Blu-Ray is backed by Sony, and HD-DVD by Microsoft.
Personally, I would wait until a drive that can handle both is down to a few hundred dollars. Until then, you know where to get your high-def movies
This is true; the entire reason that VHS overtook Beta (Beta was more reliable and faster) because ****ography chose VHS. Is there nothing pron can't do?
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thesedit
Gallente Sovereigns of Destiny
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Posted - 2007.08.29 20:16:00 -
[29]
Edited by: thesedit on 29/08/2007 20:17:04
Originally by: Reiisha Technically, blu-ray is simply better, as far as i've understood it from the specs. HDDVD is simply a super-dense CD, like a DVD is a dense CD. Blu-ray still runs on the same principle, but slightly different, and with much more room for improvement.
HDDVD tech will simply stop within a year. That's the classic CD at it's peak. Blu-ray on the other hand will probably turn into a starting point for the next big medium.
It would be rather dimwitted to go hd-dvd exclusive at this point. I can only expect that the media buffs will see that too, especially once blu-ray becomes a bit cheaper.
I totally disagree, but still see your point. HD-DVD has so much potential still. Like the fact you can put the same 'TWIN HD-DVD' disk into a DVD drive and it will still play in SD. Warner are about to release all their HD-DVD catalogue on these types of disks. Also, the new triple layered disks have 51GB of storage and still leave space for FIVE MORE layers. That's like 120GB max storage capacity versus the BD's MAXIMUM of 60GB. There's just no more physical space for more layers on a BD. Also HD-DVDs are still cheaper to produce, despite recent media reporting, which is why Warner is most certainly about to follow Dreamworks SKG and Paramount in becoming HD-DVD exclusive. I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of the hardcore blu-ray studios also follow suit too.
And as I stated earlier... the hardware standardisation and MUCH MUCH higher minimum require spec for any HD-DVD player is far better for the consumer. EVERY HD-DVD player must be 1080i and have HD-Audio. Not one current Blu-Ray player can output HD audio for a receiver to chew on. They all process in the bx which means the lossless sound becomes lossy once it is output... where's the sense in that? And don't even dare mention 1080p to me... nobody in the history of mankind can see the difference in quality between 1080i and 1080p (even on Pioneers market leading 8th generation plasma panels)! 1080p is for Blu-Ray lovers who need confidence boosts.
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Fink Angel
Caldari The Merry Men
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Posted - 2007.08.29 23:55:00 -
[30]
Originally by: thesedit And don't even dare mention 1080p to me... nobody in the history of mankind can see the difference in quality between 1080i and 1080p (even on Pioneers market leading 8th generation plasma panels)! 1080p is for Blu-Ray lovers who need confidence boosts.
There's a fundamental difference between interlaced and progressive, and it's not easy IMO to say one if better "quality" as such.
Interlaced material has a better temporal resolution, in that each field lasts 1/50th of a second (PAL), rather than 1/25th of a second.
Therefore interlaced material is better for showing fast tracking motion, sports games etc.
This fast motion is at the expense of spatial resolution, in that each field is different, so the perceived vertical resolution is half as much.
i.e. 1920*1080i at 25 FPS is really like watching 1920*540p at 50 FPS when there is fast motion occuring.
For material that is already progressive sourced, such as all films, then there is more to be gained by keeping it at it's native format and keeping the best spatial resolution possible. Ideally keeping it at 24 FPS too, if the TV is capable of displaying it at that rate. The lower perceived temporal resolution is what is responsible for movies often looking more juddery when fast movement occurs such as camera whip pans.
The holy grail is 1920*1080p at 50/60 FPS but that's a future standard being discusses to the best of my knowledge.
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