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Shiken Kan
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Posted - 2007.08.10 10:49:00 -
[91]
hi 4x med nos 2 2x whatever (mebbe even guns :p )
mid 1x 10mn mwd 2 1x 20km scram 1x web 2x cap recharger 2
low 2x mar 2 2x eanm 2 2x cpr 2
rigs 3x auxiliary nanopump
drones whatever
reps 148/sec, but not just at a small peak recharge, CAN dictate range, CAN web, CAN have higher dps then yours, CAN disengage bigger ships, capstable with nos. imo better for pvp then the passive tank, even with ab.
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Cyan Nuevo
The Blackguard Wolves
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Posted - 2007.08.10 13:49:00 -
[92]
@Qui: Yeah, but the arties can only provide the alpha you need... they just don't have the DPS to actually get this ship even to its peak regen in the first place.
@Shiken: With barely more DPS (two electron blasters?) I guarantee my fit would destroy that ship... if it stuck around.
Don't you all see the imbalance in a ship that can force practically any opponent its size to run or be destroyed? I know one time I was in a gang of four trying to take out an ubertanked Drake, but we simply couldn't. We were shooting it for about 10 minutes. It was also shooting all this time, couldn't kill a single one of us, even an AF. This I consider balanced, but just barely. But you can't do the same thing with this ship. You can't just sit around shooting it. You stick around and actually try to fight, you die. --- Proud Amarr pilot.
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Lord Loom
Loom Service Derek Knows Us
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Posted - 2007.08.10 14:50:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Pottsey ôOh sheesh indeed. The problem is that you *cannot* shield tank and run ewar/tackle/utility. Armor tanking can do this - and this provides the ability to tank "infinite" DPS.ö To counter you cannot amour tank and use damage mod and other low slots modules.
ôStill that a passive shieldtank is stronger than an active armortank on an armorbonused ship rubs the wrong way with me.ö ItÆs a dual tank ship. Just because itÆs got an amour bonus doesnÆt mean itÆs only meant to amour tank. IsnÆt the Myrm the baby brother of a Domi? If its truly based on the domi like most people say then it is ment to passive tank and amour tank. All drone ships are made to be dual tank ship. Gallate should have best passive tank's and thats just how it is. I do not see anything wrong with the current system. Well unhappy with the shield extender and shield recarger change they could do we being tweaked a little.
where do you have that "dual tank" idea from? just because it works? newsflash, things which work/are possible aren't inherently intended, let alone balanced
or maybe I just failed "game balance 101" because I clearly missed something when the "bestest damage of all" race is also supposed to have the best options for tanking with your precious passive shield tanks as well as active armor tanks wit bonuses. No, really.
hint: Amarr aren't an active shield tank race just because at one point you could fit an nber tank with CPRs and shield boosters ---------- KEEP TRY!!!
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Shiken Kan
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Posted - 2007.08.10 15:53:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Cyan Nuevo
@Shiken: With barely more DPS (two electron blasters?) I guarantee my fit would destroy that ship... if it stuck around.
that wasn't my point, ofc you'd win if i came into nos range and stuck there, but that would be my choice, not yours as i'm almost 3 times as fast. i also do understand that a passive tanked myrmi being better then a passive tanked drake is questionable. my point solely is that your setup isn't viable for pvp if not as some kind of trap for smaller gangs that attack you or in a gang, where fitting the hugest tank on a myrmi isn't really that helpfull as myrmis are rarely primaries as they just are good tanks, whether passive or armor doesn't matter much. sometimes i think the myrmi would be best in a gang without any tank as it's so rarely targeted.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.08.10 16:00:00 -
[95]
öwhere do you have that "dual tank" idea from? just because it works? newsflash, things which work/are possible aren't inherently intended, let alone balancedö Most of the ships started off as shield tanks and had amour tanking added later. Lots like the Domi are just as good as both. So I would say dual tank ships. The Domi is for sure a dual tank ship. Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Kera Va'Tauri
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Posted - 2007.08.10 16:15:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Cyan Nuevo
Don't you all see the imbalance in a ship that can force practically any opponent its size to run or be destroyed? I know one time I was in a gang of four trying to take out an ubertanked Drake, but we simply couldn't. We were shooting it for about 10 minutes. It was also shooting all this time, couldn't kill a single one of us, even an AF. This I consider balanced, but just barely. But you can't do the same thing with this ship. You can't just sit around shooting it. You stick around and actually try to fight, you die.
Where is the imbalance? Shouldn't someone who devotes, what, *14* slots to tank be hard to kill?
For what its worth, last night myself and 3 others killed a passive tanked Myr. Our gang was:
Bait: Tanked Impel with warp disruptor and Med. Nos
Me - Drake w/ 3x BCU & Hornet IIs (I loaded up Caldari EMs when I saw it was shield tanked) Harbinger w/ Heavy beams Thorax all gank fit Ishtar -- not sure on fit
I was actually surprised at how fast the Myr went down. I was running two accounts and was working on bringing in a Brutix for extra damage but the Mry was down before I could make all 4 jumps.
I don't quite know what you're looking for... Do you want to be able to solo any ship in the game regardless of tank? Do you want to bring along a wolfpack of 3-4 frigs and kill anything you come across? And, to be honest, if you are really that worried about passive shield tanks, just fly a pulse Geddon or Abbadon with a few heatsinks and EM drones. Either of those ships can solo pretty much any passive shield tank you come across without breaking a sweat.
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Simon Jax
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.08.10 16:28:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Cyan Nuevo
Don't you all see the imbalance in a ship that can force practically any opponent its size to run or be destroyed? I know one time I was in a gang of four trying to take out an ubertanked Drake, but we simply couldn't. We were shooting it for about 10 minutes. It was also shooting all this time, couldn't kill a single one of us, even an AF. This I consider balanced, but just barely. But you can't do the same thing with this ship. You can't just sit around shooting it. You stick around and actually try to fight, you die.
This is what you aren't getting. You don't die. This ship will indeed murder any close-range DPS boat of its size or smaller. This is because it can NOS it's tank to nothing and the drones will have ample time to do their work. But that is perfectly reasonable. It's the counter to that type of attack.
If you stick around, enter NOS range, and stay there ... then you deserve to die to this ship. If you are outside of its NOS range, and not shooting down its drones (one webber = dead drone), then you deserve to die to this ship.
No, you can't just sit around shooting this ship. Duh, it's beastly that way. The element of balance that you are consistently missing is the fact that you can completely neuter this ship. The fact of the matter is that this PST ship looks really uber on paper, but its weaknesses are glaringly obvious to those who have flown them in combat.
You don't force opponents to run or be destroyed. You force them to adapt to the tactic. 1) Stay outside NOS range. Cakewalk for most ships. 2) Kill the drones. Killing even ONE of the drones makes a rather major difference. 3) Begin laughing at the impotent PST Myrm that is locked down with no weapons and no ability to escape. --- Wherever you go, there you are.
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Fehnrail
Caldari Colossus Technologies
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Posted - 2007.08.10 17:30:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Fehnrail on 10/08/2007 17:32:53
Originally by: Cyan Nuevo
H: 4x Medium Nosferatu 2x Medium Neutralizer M: 3x Large Shield Extender II 1x Invulnerability Field (or an Amplifier of your choice if you're scared of running into somebody with nos) 1x Warp Disruptor (preferably named) L: 5x Shield Power Relay II 1x Power Diagnostic System (does not need to be T2 but it helps) Rigs: 3x Core Defence Field Purger
Wow, so you are setting up the Myrmidon to be a superb shield tank that has no gank. That's amazing.
I'm still having trouble figuring out just what exactly your setup is for. Clearly it's not for ratting, as you fit a warp disruptor. But it can't really be for PvP, because fitting a disruptor on a ship that moves at 200 m/s with maxed skills is a pretty terrible idea.
That goes for cap suckers, too.
So I guess this setup is for group PvP, where you have someone tackling and an ECM ship jamming your target so that your drones don't get blasted, simply waiting for you to slowly hobble in range.
I don't see anything overpowered about that.
Face it. Battlecruisers are command ships. They lack pew pew, but they compensate for it with BS-type defenses. There is nothing wrong with this.
Edit: also, if you insist on using rigs, go with two extenders and one purger. You will get far more mileage out of that, because additional shield benefits from shield operations, etc, greatly.
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Simon Jax
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.08.10 17:54:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Simon Jax on 10/08/2007 18:01:46 If you run the numbers you'll find that your method yields rather significantly lower HP/s recharge than the setups fitted. It's not linar, don't forget that. The 105s shield recharge rate is the big dog in the PST beasliness.
L4 in Shield Ops. and Shield Man. with the "typical" max-tank (3 LSE II, 6 SPR II) with the 2 open slots needed for various darn good reasons.
Extenders / Purgers 0 / 0 = 157 hp/s 3 / 0 = 240 hp/s 2 / 1 = 260 hp/s 1 / 2 = 283 hp/s 0 / 3 = 307 hp/s
L5 in both skills, similar story: 175 - 266 - 288 - 314 - 341 --- Wherever you go, there you are.
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Fehnrail
Caldari Colossus Technologies
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Posted - 2007.08.10 17:58:00 -
[100]
Important part of a bigger shield is significantly longer peak time. This renders you significantly more resilient against any burst damage in the long run. It also gives you much more breathing room.
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Simon Jax
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.08.10 18:05:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Fehnrail Important part of a bigger shield is significantly longer peak time. This renders you significantly more resilient against any burst damage in the long run. It also gives you much more breathing room.
I put more numbers into the above post. Burst damage is not as effective versus the PST as you think it is. The downside of high volley damage is the ROF. It's always this way. With a 105s recharge, that next volley comes into a well-recharged shield. --- Wherever you go, there you are.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.08.10 18:16:00 -
[102]
Edited by: Pottsey on 10/08/2007 18:16:53 ôBurst damage is not as effective versus the PST as you think it is. The downside of high volley damage is the ROF.ö ThatÆs true itÆs not as effective as people think but after testing I have to admit its better to burst then stagger. Burst did more damage sometimes but its never worse off.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Fehnrail
Caldari Colossus Technologies
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Posted - 2007.08.10 18:23:00 -
[103]
L4 skills are used as it is a common average across the field. It cannot be assumed that everyone will have L5 skills.
Using your own numbers, and assuming same resistances since we're only alterating rigs:
Myrmidon with three purgers and three extenders II should have somewhere around 2400x1.2 + (2600x3)x1.2 ~ 12.6k shields. Erring in favour of a bigger number
Peak recharge is from 33-26% or so, 7% total, at 346 hp/s.
Assuming a 1000 damage volley at 33%, which was talked about earlier in this thread, and the ship's shield goes down to about 24%. Peak passed, you die.
Now, a Myrmidon with 30% more shield with 2 extenders/1 purger setup will have roughly 17200 shield, rounding up. A 1000 damage volley at 33% will merely drop it to roughly 27%, meaning you are still in the peak and able to regen in time for the next volley.
Ideally, bigger passve shield will nearly always be more efficient when tanking huge bursts over smaller, faster charging shield.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.08.10 18:35:00 -
[104]
ôAssuming a 1000 damage volley at 33%, which was talked about earlier in this thread, and the ship's shield goes down to about 24%. Peak passed, you die.ö That drops you from what 2.5 down to 2.4 or was it 2.3regen? Hardly you die. You donÆt worry till you get under 20% that when regen really drops. ItÆs possible to recover form 24%.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Fehnrail
Caldari Colossus Technologies
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Posted - 2007.08.10 18:41:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Pottsey That drops you from what 2.5 down to 2.4 or was it 2.3regen? Hardly you die. You donÆt worry till you get under 20% that when regen really drops. ItÆs possible to recover form 24%.
That's true, and a faster charging ship will be better in recovering from this. However, there is little chance of actually beating the DPS at that point. You'd recharge less after every volley, and essentially get whittled down.
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Kweel Nakashyn
Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.08.10 18:54:00 -
[106]
Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 10/08/2007 18:55:06
Originally by: Cyan Nuevo (...) With reasonable shield skills this will give you ~268hp/s
Huricane with autocan 1 - shoot your drones 2 - shoot you with 450/500 dps. -=-=-
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Liang Nuren
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.08.10 19:09:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 10/08/2007 18:55:06
Originally by: Cyan Nuevo (...) With reasonable shield skills this will give you ~268hp/s
Huricane with autocan 1 - shoot your drones 2 - shoot you with 450/500 dps.
This thread is a joke, because the Myrmidon as they present it is a joke. But, in the spirit of being on topic, QFT.
* > nos/neut passive pos-style myrm.
Liang
Originally by: "QproQ"
When people say "Put 'stabs on your 'cane", they mean GYROSTABS"
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Cyan Nuevo
The Blackguard Wolves
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Posted - 2007.08.11 04:09:00 -
[108]
Edited by: Cyan Nuevo on 11/08/2007 04:10:33 Actually, I think a Hurricane would be a pretty interesting fight.
Anyway, I really think I've said all I can already (and, ironically enough, I've said that before), so I'll let this thread die after this post. It was nice seeing you all, maybe you'll catch me in this fit some day.
Edit: I'll swallow my pride and admit I did learn something from this thread. I didn't actually think about how many ships could so easily get away from this fit. I realize now that even though it's still overpowered, it's by no means game-breaking, just really annoying if you run into one. Now, if you have someone to tackle for you... --- Proud Amarr pilot.
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Liang Nuren
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.08.11 04:30:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Cyan Nuevo Edited by: Cyan Nuevo on 11/08/2007 04:10:33 Actually, I think a Hurricane would be a pretty interesting fight.
Anyway, I really think I've said all I can already (and, ironically enough, I've said that before), so I'll let this thread die after this post. It was nice seeing you all, maybe you'll catch me in this fit some day.
Edit: I'll swallow my pride and admit I did learn something from this thread. I didn't actually think about how many ships could so easily get away from this fit. I realize now that even though it's still overpowered, it's by no means game-breaking, just really annoying if you run into one. Now, if you have someone to tackle for you...
It takes a good man to admit he overlooked something. o7
Liang
Originally by: "QproQ"
When people say "Put 'stabs on your 'cane", they mean GYROSTABS"
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