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Curzon Dax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.08.04 10:50:00 -
[121]
Originally by: largewhereitcounts
EVE is a world where things happen not a carebear land where there is consensual pvp. In EVE you fight for your rights like sovereignty rights and in the case of empire wars the right to fly around freely without a worry once you win a war. This is an RPG. Let me know how these magical battlegrounds make sense and how non consensual pvp adds to the game? It does not. Most people like you said don't pvp. They will not pvp if there are your magical battlegrounds that no EVE player wants. They will keep carebearing in 100% protection resulting from your lame idea. Guess what CCP disagrees with you and they have stuck to their ideas not WOW ideas for this many years. They will keep working with their ideas because that is what makes EVE great.
Think you're confused about a few things.
1. Carebear. Lets define a carebear as someone who goes to virtually any lengths to protect themselves from ship loss. For some people that involves staying in Empire. For others, that means a massive blob, ridiculous odds, and little pew-pew.
2. There's a reason that people who come to play a game steeped in PvP don't do it. Explore why.
3. Before you so hastily decide that communal opinion reflects your own personal opinion, take a look around at the general discussion forum, the crime and punishment forum, and the Events forum. See all those 1v1 posts, the tournament posts, that sort of thing? They're quite prevalent. You can't miss them.
Apparently, it boils down to one of two things.
1. Empire huggers will never PvP. 2. Empire higgers will not PvP under the current conditions, and perceived unfairness.
Now, before flocking to make the first presumption....ASK some of them. Pick say...10 people. And ask them. In game. Before posting more foolishness. I bet you'll have trouble finding one person in ten who will say that they have no plans to PvP.
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.08.04 11:38:00 -
[122]
the other possibility to get people to pvp would be to just penalize blobs.. if there is a huge tradeof like immobility etc.. people probaby would tend to fielsd lesser numbers thus les ganking..
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Krakhen
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Posted - 2007.08.04 13:42:00 -
[123]
Arena PvP was added to my then favorite game, City Of Heroes and it completely threw the single player part off. Now I know there is no real single player aspect to Eve but what I'm trying to say is that the game is built for 24/7 PvP, you cant change that without changing the game. Some people like chocolate enough to want the stuff in everything but you dont see a Mc Chocolate Big Mac do you? Wait for Eve 2
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Malcanis
High4Life Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.04 15:04:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Hannobaal
Originally by: Malcanis
Lo-sec is like asbestos; short exposures with appropriate safety measures are fine.
Nah, low-sec (with a tiny few exceptions) is 0.0 people's high-sec. I make it through N-RAEL into Konora and it's like "yay, I'm safe now."
LOL! I know what you mean. No more dictors, no more mobile bubbles...
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
cal nereus
Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.04 15:40:00 -
[125]
Edited by: cal nereus on 04/08/2007 15:40:42 I think most players have at least a certain desire for PvP, or at least some form of combat. However, their simultaneous desire for fairness acts as a barrier against their desire for PvP. To be honest, I'm not really looking for fairness in Eve. To a certain degree, it is necessary for all the players to have common backgrounds and features such that they don't have huge advantages that they didn't earn, but aside from that, I'm perfectly fine with fighting an unfair battle. Either as the underdog or the favorite. Reason being that I don't see PvP as a duel, as a shooting match, or as an opportunity to achieve personal glory. I willingly go into PvP expecting to die, and expecting to have only a relatively small impact on the outcome. But I do expect to have an impact, and I do expect to help get some kills before I die. That's the kind of PvP that exists in Eve right now, and I don't want it threatened. ---
Grismar.net |
Curzon Dax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.08.04 17:11:00 -
[126]
Originally by: cal nereus Edited by: cal nereus on 04/08/2007 15:40:42 I think most players have at least a certain desire for PvP, or at least some form of combat. However, their simultaneous desire for fairness acts as a barrier against their desire for PvP. To be honest, I'm not really looking for fairness in Eve. To a certain degree, it is necessary for all the players to have common backgrounds and features such that they don't have huge advantages that they didn't earn, but aside from that, I'm perfectly fine with fighting an unfair battle. Either as the underdog or the favorite. Reason being that I don't see PvP as a duel, as a shooting match, or as an opportunity to achieve personal glory. I willingly go into PvP expecting to die, and expecting to have only a relatively small impact on the outcome. But I do expect to have an impact, and I do expect to help get some kills before I die. That's the kind of PvP that exists in Eve right now, and I don't want it threatened.
Nor should it be threatened, nor does it need to be threatened.
If arenas were installed, or a place for people to duke it out at will, there are many who would scoff at the idea (and already do) and continue to PvP just like you do now; there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
The idea of an arena is more for a casual gamer, or someone who doesn't want to dedicate massive amounts of time to assembling a fleet, hunting, engaging, camping, whatever it might be. The arena is to add PvP for those who do not PvP not; to cater to Empire folks. And don't be fooled, there are more Empire folks than there are NOT empire folks.
The current state of PvP is well and good for a small segment of the population, but there need be something different, something new that can engage the rest of folks. =)
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Daelin Blackleaf
No Joy Corp Pride - Honor - Duty
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Posted - 2007.08.04 19:42:00 -
[127]
Lo-sec will see carebears when it offers enough extra isk beyond empire operation to cover their losses.
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Manic Smile
Tau Ceti Global Production Angels Of Discord
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Posted - 2007.08.04 21:47:00 -
[128]
Edited by: Manic Smile on 04/08/2007 21:48:31
Fixed your thread title:
The futility of arena combat in eve space
Good idea, wrong time
*courtesy of www.flickr.com
I hate the jpeg format.
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Neal Cassady
Mutually Assured Distraction Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.04 21:56:00 -
[129]
everyone in eve starts with a noobship and 5k isk, that's all the fairness i want in eve.
a friend of mine said, "pvp is about putting yourself in the best possible position to win, not about trying to achieve some notion of fairness"
arena combat would remove several essential elements of eve pvp:
intelligence (how many do they have?) counter-intelligence (hiding how many you have) traps counter-traps 3rd party interruption calling for alliance/corp aid the list goes on...
curzon, you say that it would help the empire huggers enjoy pvp in a controlled environment, and i don't dispute this. whats great about eve is so much pvp happens before the first round is fired. people who whine about "blobs" and "gankbears" really should be whining that they didn't bother to do their legwork before the fight started. then perhaps they would have known about the 30 man fleet waiting nearby to ruin their day.
imo if empire huggers think they would learn everything about pvp in an arena setting they're sadly mistaken.
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SXyWhile
Gallente NYIT Gangstaz SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.04 22:10:00 -
[130]
Edited by: SXyWhile on 04/08/2007 22:11:36
Originally by: Curzon Dax Why isn't there a battleground style arena combat in Eve?
Your reason: it's a terrible idea.
Thank God CCP hasn't gone mad and implemented this concept.
Blog. |
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Z3r0n
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.08.04 22:32:00 -
[131]
I totally agree with Curzon! CCP should give us some tools to plan and execute "fair" encounters. As I said before in many a thread, an open system like we have it now is cool but it doesn't bring the type of PVP i'd like, namly a fight of player-skills and not numbers and / or lag. |
d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.08.04 22:36:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Neal Cassady whats great about eve is so much pvp happens before the first round is fired.
doing nothing is pvp?
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Neal Cassady
Mutually Assured Distraction Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.04 22:43:00 -
[133]
Originally by: d026
Originally by: Neal Cassady whats great about eve is so much pvp happens before the first round is fired.
doing nothing is pvp?
umm so i guess you sit in a belt until someone jumps you... usually i like to try to figure out what my enemy is up to.
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.08.04 22:54:00 -
[134]
Edited by: d026 on 04/08/2007 22:56:42
Originally by: Neal Cassady
Originally by: d026
Originally by: Neal Cassady whats great about eve is so much pvp happens before the first round is fired.
doing nothing is pvp?
umm so i guess you sit in a belt until someone jumps you... usually i like to try to figure out what my enemy is up to.
uhh yeah thats as interesting as watching a screensaver... anyway somethimges you just want to wtfbbq without having to spend 2 days on intel gathering. eve pvp is just boring as hell. 90% of teh time you either gank teh **** out of a shuttle. crash due to server cant handl yuor fleet. or jkust roaming arround for 10 hours not finding anything. and sorry for me this is not fun..
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iudex
Caldari Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2007.08.04 23:15:00 -
[135]
I think the Arena is a good idea. Instant pvp fun when you log in, instead of waiting for hours till you get a gang going and then waiting even more for suitable targets etc. An arena for each shipclass, no fitting limitations, maybe with some stats would attract another target audience, so i don't think existing pvp would decrease because of that, as there is still space and assets in 0.0 that have to be defended/conquered etc. Would be nice to see that one day.
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iudex
Caldari Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2007.08.04 23:15:00 -
[136]
I think the Arena is a good idea. Instant pvp fun when you log in, instead of waiting for hours till you get a gang going and then waiting even more for suitable targets etc. An arena for each shipclass, no fitting limitations, maybe with some stats would attract another target audience, so i don't think existing pvp would decrease because of that, as there is still space and assets in 0.0 that have to be defended/conquered etc. Would be nice to see that one day.
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Caztra Tor
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Posted - 2007.08.04 23:34:00 -
[137]
No disrespect intended, but Eve is the arena.
You want to look for a fight go to low sec or no sec. You want to only have to fear suicide gankers, stay in .5 and above.
Clone Jumping lets us port to combat zones. Or at least it does for me.
Now, I do see your point for special events. Travel, even w/ warp to 0 and clone jumping (two things i learned this game w/o), is a pain the the backside. It would be nice if we had a "TRAVEL AGENT" That could take us to these foo foo events. I would attend one now and then if we could do that.
my 2 cents
Caztra Tor Still Looking For that Loving Feeling. yea yea yea
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Curzon Dax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.08.05 00:08:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Neal Cassady everyone in eve starts with a noobship and 5k isk, that's all the fairness i want in eve.
a friend of mine said, "pvp is about putting yourself in the best possible position to win, not about trying to achieve some notion of fairness"
arena combat would remove several essential elements of eve pvp:
intelligence (how many do they have?) counter-intelligence (hiding how many you have) traps counter-traps 3rd party interruption calling for alliance/corp aid the list goes on...
curzon, you say that it would help the empire huggers enjoy pvp in a controlled environment, and i don't dispute this. whats great about eve is so much pvp happens before the first round is fired. people who whine about "blobs" and "gankbears" really should be whining that they didn't bother to do their legwork before the fight started. then perhaps they would have known about the 30 man fleet waiting nearby to ruin their day.
imo if empire huggers think they would learn everything about pvp in an arena setting they're sadly mistaken.
*sigh* Look. NO ONE is suggesting that we do away with metagaming. Arena combat would not infringe on your meta combat either. But for casual gamers who don't participate in it already, it provides an opportunity to PvP.
We're talking about MORE PvP, not changing how PvP works.
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largewhereitcounts
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Posted - 2007.08.05 00:10:00 -
[139]
Edited by: largewhereitcounts on 05/08/2007 00:10:27
Originally by: Curzon Dax
Originally by: largewhereitcounts
EVE is a world where things happen not a carebear land where there is consensual pvp. In EVE you fight for your rights like sovereignty rights and in the case of empire wars the right to fly around freely without a worry once you win a war. This is an RPG. Let me know how these magical battlegrounds make sense and how non consensual pvp adds to the game? It does not. Most people like you said don't pvp. They will not pvp if there are your magical battlegrounds that no EVE player wants. They will keep carebearing in 100% protection resulting from your lame idea. Guess what CCP disagrees with you and they have stuck to their ideas not WOW ideas for this many years. They will keep working with their ideas because that is what makes EVE great.
Think you're confused about a few things.
1. Carebear. Lets define a carebear as someone who goes to virtually any lengths to protect themselves from ship loss. For some people that involves staying in Empire. For others, that means a massive blob, ridiculous odds, and little pew-pew.
2. There's a reason that people who come to play a game steeped in PvP don't do it. Explore why.
3. Before you so hastily decide that communal opinion reflects your own personal opinion, take a look around at the general discussion forum, the crime and punishment forum, and the Events forum. See all those 1v1 posts, the tournament posts, that sort of thing? They're quite prevalent. You can't miss them.
Apparently, it boils down to one of two things.
1. Empire huggers will never PvP. 2. Empire higgers will not PvP under the current conditions, and perceived unfairness.
Now, before flocking to make the first presumption....ASK some of them. Pick say...10 people. And ask them. In game. Before posting more foolishness. I bet you'll have trouble finding one person in ten who will say that they have no plans to PvP.
And now you have proven another point. Those who want to pvp do and can. Right now and with the current rules and mechanics. Those that don't, don't.
____ Now when you realize what immersion means and how magical tournaments that have nothing to do with any backstory ruin that then you can have a discussion. What you are asking is to make your unofficial tournaments official. There is no need. Stop pretending there is and then read part one of this post again.
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cal nereus
Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.05 00:12:00 -
[140]
I'm a casual gamer. I PvP. I'm in an alliance.
If you want to PvP, what is stopping you from fighting? ---
Grismar.net |
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Roy Batty68
Caldari Immortal Dead
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Posted - 2007.08.05 00:20:00 -
[141]
From the OP:
Originally by: Curzon Dax *****Its GOING to happen*****
Folks, people want it. The player community is already making it happen on their own terms.
People are already making it happen? So... what's the point of this post?
-------------------
Must read player written Eve fiction.
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Roy Batty68
Caldari Immortal Dead
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Posted - 2007.08.05 00:20:00 -
[142]
From the OP:
Originally by: Curzon Dax *****Its GOING to happen*****
Folks, people want it. The player community is already making it happen on their own terms.
People are already making it happen? So... what's the point of this post?
-------------------
Must read player written Eve fiction.
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Curzon Dax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.08.05 01:42:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Roy Batty68 From the OP:
Originally by: Curzon Dax *****Its GOING to happen*****
Folks, people want it. The player community is already making it happen on their own terms.
People are already making it happen? So... what's the point of this post?
Because an infrastructure would open it up to a much wider segment of the population.
As it stands now...can you come home from work, log into Eve for an hour, get a couple good PvP fights, and log off content? No.
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Mind's Desire
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Posted - 2007.08.05 02:56:00 -
[144]
I fly solo, but I'd rather die to a blob than have an arena. Yes EVE has serious issues with its 3 zones and blobs but arenas aren't the solution
I'm quite biased, I'd agree to any blob nerf like -50% damage to all gang members for each member beyond the xth or making engines damage ships that are close to each other but arenas don't belong to EVE.
What I'd agree on is an automated tournament every month/week/random interval but no crap like battlegrounds where you can sign up anytime you want and have your consensual PvP.
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Curzon Dax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.08.05 03:03:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Mind's Desire I fly solo, but I'd rather die to a blob than have an arena. Yes EVE has serious issues with its 3 zones and blobs but arenas aren't the solution
I'm quite biased, I'd agree to any blob nerf like -50% damage to all gang members for each member beyond the xth or making engines damage ships that are close to each other but arenas don't belong to EVE.
What I'd agree on is an automated tournament every month/week/random interval but no crap like battlegrounds where you can sign up anytime you want and have your consensual PvP.
You completely don't understand the premise. "I'd rather die to a blob than have an arena."
OK! GOOD! That's JUST fine! You are welcome to! No one is proposing that you shouldn't!
The difference is that some other people would like to NOT die to a blob. They'd like some small scale combat. That's what this is for. Other people.
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largewhereitcounts
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Posted - 2007.08.05 03:04:00 -
[146]
Other people can already perform 1v1 combat if they use their brains. Jetcan switch is the simplest form.
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Mind's Desire
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Posted - 2007.08.05 03:25:00 -
[147]
Right. You speak of humans as if they're perfectly reasonable beings. Like they would "Log in, get a few "fair fights" and log out".
The truth is those arenas would be overcamped and lowsec wouldn't even have its blobs and newbies anymore.
A free battleground-like system where everyone can fight anytime is poison for EVE. Unless the devs are planning to change EVE completely, I don't see it happening, sorry.
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Baldermoore
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.08.05 06:30:00 -
[148]
Edited by: Baldermoore on 05/08/2007 06:32:10 The longer i play this game the more i would like some kind of small arena, for maybe 5 v 5 at most.
It would hardly kill world pvp like you people say. Stop comparing it to WoW adding battlegrounds. Battlegrounds are blizzard's attempt to simulate world pvp, this would just be a simple dueling arena. Blizzard forces you to play and grind in the battlegrounds by offering phat loots and ranks/titles. There is also no death penalty and has npcs/powerups/stupid stuff.
In eve not only would there be no reward, you would lose your ship, mods, and maybe even pod (although who would bring a dictor to a duel) if you lose. To prevent some l33t faction fitted dudes from farming the arena you could even add an entrance fee. Yes, sometimes i would even PAY to get a good fight instead of people running away or calling for backup all the time.
Will this vacate 0.0 and low sec? Hell no. Because fitting out your uber ships of d00m costs money, and where exactly are you going to get that money. The world keeps turning and if you want to compete with the best you're going to need a way to make money and that usually means 0.0 and defending your space. Also there will always be the desire for bigger battles and feeding the massive egos that exist in some parts of this game, so fleet warfare will always be there. The huge alliance blobs and territory wars wont go anywhere.
Where the carebears go the pirates and gankers go, so day to day life in low sec and 0.0 will not change one bit. The only difference would be those people who DO look for challenging small gang fights wont have to fly around for hours looking for similar minded people.
So in other words, a small dueling arena would be fun and wouldnt take away anything from world pvp if done right. Keep it small, so it doesnt take away from the medium sized battles that are still fun (although rare). Yes i know you can already set up something like this on your own, but realistically it is a lot of work and this is supposed to be a game dammit. But who knows maybe im wrong, flame away flamers
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Mirirar
Solstice Systems Development Concourse
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Posted - 2007.08.05 06:55:00 -
[149]
Curzon - I'm very disappointed in you.
Please pack up your ship, guitar, and anything else, and wait for World of Starcraft.
In the mean time, stop trying to WOW-ify our game.
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Verite Rendition
Caldari AUS Corporation CORE.
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Posted - 2007.08.05 07:31:00 -
[150]
For a freeform game, I'm surprised to see the amount of resistance to arena-style PvP. If players want to "ruin" EVE by doing structured PvP, they may as well be allowed to do so, and CCP asked to help as they do with every other large element of the game. It seems very strange that players would argue for CCP to artificially restrict what other players do when the object in question isn't any kind of balance-breaker.
Personally I like this idea BTW. I'm a hardcore carebear/empire-builder/logistics-man, if there's a fight I'm 3 regions away trying to fly farther away. However if there was an arena system I'd at least be tempted to go grab a ship and take a look at it. Symmetrical PvP with rules is a lot of fun for someone like me. ---- AUS Corp Lead Megalomanic |
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