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Windryder
Caldari New Fnord Industries
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Posted - 2007.07.29 11:36:00 -
[1]
If I am at war with someone, or have someone set to low standings, I would like to be able to refuse to sell them stuff if they try to buy it on the market or through contracts.
I can refuse them access to my POS, my gangs, my stations... but I can't refuse to sell them stuff. In real world politics and business you always have that option but in EVE you never do. In real life you can also choose who to buy from.
To put my cynical hat on, this "Trade Embargo" is a feature that CANNOT BE IMPLEMENTED. Absolutely CAN NOT come to pass. It would utterly DESTROY the GAME BALANCE that currently exists. It would empower industrialists to be able to fight against PvPers on their own terms, and frankly that seems very... un-EVE-like.
I mean, a Titan should go down to superior forces... not because conquered locals refuse to sell him fuel.
\\'
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Wraith Runner
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Posted - 2007.07.29 16:49:00 -
[2]
Why? Eve is a sandbox game, and although I¦m an aspiring PvP¦er, not a trader myself, I must confess that traders and industrialists continually get none of the respect, influence and general awesomeness that they really deserve.
Pew-pew doesnt¦make the world go round. Money does.
It would not so much destroy game balance but actually correct an imbalance that has been here since day 1 - Warlords are not beholden to their creditors like they should be.
Remember, the course of history has never really been determined by the Patton¦s, the Rommel¦s and the like. It¦s been determined by the JP Morgan¦s, the Thiessens, the Standard Oil¦s and General Electric¦s of the world.
Why should that not hold true in EVE as well?
The PvP¦ers SHOULD be dependant on traders, and wars should be economical wars first and foremost.
I think many people are just scared of getting market PvP pwned by Empire carebears...the people who actually sustain this game, economy-wise.
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Windryder
Caldari New Fnord Industries Black Scope Project
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Posted - 2007.08.02 13:18:00 -
[3]
Oh heavens I agree completely, and think that for the very reasons you cite it cannot happen - because the PvP'ers in 0.0 would hate it. Power? In the hands of Carebears? They'd flee the game in droves. They couldn't simply go about shooting anything that dares fly through space with cries of "lolz carebearz u r all teh pwnz0rred" and then wander in to Jita and stock-up on supplies; all of a sudden their lifestyle of random violence would start having CONSEQUENCES as they run out of suppliers.
No, trade embargoes can never be implemented in EVE - the PVP Combat Wombat is king and as such only another PVP Combat Wombat can be allowed to challenge their supremecy. Allowing industrialists to choose who they do business with would be an utter disaster for the status quo. |
La Jefature
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Posted - 2007.08.02 14:34:00 -
[4]
I think it would be great! Not only complete trade embargo, but penalties when dealing with some corps/alliances.
A pirate corps bothers some of your miners, place a 25% price penalty to that corp (and let them know). They continue harrasing your forces, deny them your products.
There is a nice friendly corp, sell them at -5% prices! you can even make trade agreements with other corps.
Interesting concept.
Only problem is that your enemy corp could make an alt and still buy from you unless you restrict your products a lot. But it would still add great depth to the game.
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Callate
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Posted - 2007.08.02 16:32:00 -
[5]
Great idea
Me for instance stopped being an industrialist, because of the fact I'm supporting the same people who shot me down in lower security areas. I do missions instead to make money, no pvp! Altough this game is like 80% pvp, i refuse to become part of it AND i don't want to support it either. We industrialist should be able to refuse corporations when selling stuff. This way, pvp-only based corporations will have problems while the alliances and big corporations can make items for themselves.
No balance? I'm not selling my car to the same man that killed my wife for example,i can't imagine that would effect world economy.
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Eleana Tomelac
Gallente Defcon One
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Posted - 2007.08.02 16:39:00 -
[6]
the workaround would be alts! and not selling to alts or anyone in an NPC corp is denying your services to new players mostly...
It's just like many pirates have an alt to buy and sell stuff in hi sec... -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! The Vexor Navy Issue is much more fun than the Myrmidon !
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.08.02 18:57:00 -
[7]
It would be nice if instead of alt they were resellers. Player buying "cheap" in high sec ands then selling for a higher price to the low sec/0.0 denizens, like the smugglers selling to pirates or the blockade runners during the wars. That would be a lot part of the EVE phylosophy. Sadly the alt allow people to circumvent that.
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Erim Solfara
Amarr House of Solfara
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Posted - 2007.08.03 02:10:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Windryder They'd flee the game in droves.
Make it so.
A new tool in the fight for balance? |
Starbuck
Caldari Goldadler Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.08.03 02:55:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Venkul Mul It would be nice if instead of alt they were resellers. Player buying "cheap" in high sec ands then selling for a higher price to the low sec/0.0 denizens, like the smugglers selling to pirates or the blockade runners during the wars. That would be a lot part of the EVE phylosophy. Sadly the alt allow people to circumvent that.
I'm not so sure the alt trick woudl work depending on how the system was set up.
I would see a system like this dependant on standings. Positive or neuutral standings with a player, corp, alliance allows trade. Negative standigs would deny trade or cary with it an increased cost.
You could then set your standings to the NPC factions as well. Those are supposed to be placeholders until the players join up with player corps anyway. PLus half the lowsec pirates infest the NPC corps. Mainly because there would be no accountability. An Embargo like this would severely limit what they could buy while in the NPC corp and acting like complete ***hats would deny them purchases either way.
I like this idea. --------------------------------------------------- Have Rail's. Will travel.
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Kindra Blades
Caldari Celestial Pillagers
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Posted - 2007.08.03 07:41:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Wraith Runner The PvP¦ers SHOULD be dependant on traders, and wars should be economical wars first and foremost.
This is a very valid statement, PvPers come in and slaughter industrialists by stealing ore, so why not give them a way to fight back? Give it a way to involve more strategy than just pew pew you're dead. If they want to shoot, they need something to shoot with. Ofc, the number of NPC corp pilots would triple in doing so though, but hey...cant have everything...or can you? =)
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Ellaine TashMurkon
MetaForge Ekliptika
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Posted - 2007.08.03 10:31:00 -
[11]
In fact noone would ave much problems with supply in empire, competition is so hard, that if my supplier of cap recharges II stops liking me, other 30 suppliers sell me same item 1% higher perhaps.
This would much more affect 0.0 and isolated lowsec markets, especially in NPC space, where not supplying Your enemies would be a great option.
Interface might be quite simple, add "minimum relation required for transaction:" and choice: [anyone, -5, 0, 5, 10, my alliance, my corp] when putting new buy/sell orders. I think this needs rewriting market engine and is not likely to come soon, but would be very good.
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Vyger
KarWal Corporation FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.03 11:14:00 -
[12]
I totally agree with having some kind of trade embargo functionality in the game. Would bring a lot to the pvp possibilities in this game. Yes of course there would be many ways around an embargo but it would still enrichen the game.
You could make it really simple like having a Market Block List. If someone attempts to buy from me and they/their corp/their alliance is on my block list the sale is blocked.
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Cedric Diggory
Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps
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Posted - 2007.08.03 11:20:00 -
[13]
I do like the idea of a trade embargo. However, just like with sec status there is a simple solution for anyone who as gained the displeasure of the marketeer and still wants to enjoy the low, low prices of Jita: Alts.
You're not going to put a trade embargo against the noob corps, right?
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Vyger
KarWal Corporation FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.03 11:32:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Cedric Diggory
You're not going to put a trade embargo against the noob corps, right?
Well, having the option would be nice. If you want to then why not? |
Windryder
Caldari New Fnord Industries Black Scope Project
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Posted - 2007.08.03 12:02:00 -
[15]
The definite workaround would be Alts of course. But in real life shady people/organisations use front companies and go-betweens to hide who the purchasers really are, so I wouldn't say Alts would be a flaw in the system... more like a mirror. And yeah, everyone has a Jita trading toon but at least its one more step they have to go through. And if you suspect a certain buyer is a front for someone you hate... you set a standing to the character.
I kind of envisioned such a system coming quite simply from the player-set standings at character, corp and alliance levels.
I like the suggestion of changed market rates for good and not-terrible standings, and I'd thought of it too but not in-depth... as I still believe an Embargo system is anathema to what EvE is about.
Noob corps and NPC corps would be an issue but it'd just be a fly in the ointment rather than wrecking the system. I'd want to be able to set an embargo on characters as well as corps and alliances, so specific NPC Corp or Noob Corp characters could be blocked.
Hmmm much to think about.
I still doubt it would ever come to pass though - its too much of a challenge to the elite pilots.
"Never underestimate the power of a n00b to blunder through a dangerous situation unharmed and obliviously unaware." |
Murmura
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Posted - 2007.08.03 14:55:00 -
[16]
it would make pirates think twice before attacking people, because if say a corp goes on the list then they could in face be hurting themselves, i like the idea and it will help.
*thumbs up*
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Pyrocam
019 Alpha Phal Black Scope Project
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Posted - 2007.09.17 12:15:00 -
[17]
I think this is a great idea, based on the existing ratings system or with a new market ratings system as some players might still want to rip off the local pirates with their extraordinarily high prices ... making them... the .. pirates?
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Haley Hatorat
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Posted - 2007.09.17 23:00:00 -
[18]
There could give rise to large trading alliances which would use standing to protect their members much like 0.0 alliances use.
Large Trading alliance\corp X gets hit by a raid from corp Y. Alliance\corp X places an embargo on corp Y's alliance until restitution is paid. This could wreak havoc if a regions traders were to unite under one alliance.
Industrials would finally be able to flex the only muscle they have, the financial muscle.
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Cedric Diggory
Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps
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Posted - 2007.09.17 23:37:00 -
[19]
I'm going to hedge my bets that this would also help reduce lag too: Whilst there would be more work server-side, there would be significantly less client side activity due to the fact that not everyone will be able to see every buy and sell order, and so there will be significantly less price altering going on in Jita as the competition would be reduced.
The more I think about this idea, the more I really do like it.
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LeGlt
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.09.18 00:02:00 -
[20]
/signed
People should realise there are consequences for their actions.
Whilst the pirate may loot your hold whenever they can be bothered, the average carebear is really unable to effectively retaliate door to inexperience or ill-equipment, or both. As it stands now pirates are already biting the hand that feed them - it's the carebears who build the ships and weapons which they get killed by. Ceasing production would work in that there would be no ships left to shoot at them, but of course that's not a viable option.
In RL I can walk in to a shop and they can tell me to get the **** right out. they don't even have to give a reason. They have an automatic right to refuse a customer - any customer, for any, all or even no reason. If the pirates were forced to think twice before popping haulers, then it will force them to consider other options.
Combat PvP has continued to develop throughout Eve whilst Market PvP (in comparison) is relatively stale. I can't see any harm to implement this but I can see a lot of benefits. __________________________ Nice forum - I'll take it! |
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Wardo21
The Arcanum
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Posted - 2007.09.19 21:15:00 -
[21]
/signed
Right now, the only thing I can do to empire pests and ore theives is set their standing to -10 so I get a flag on their ship/portrait reminding me that they are bothersome.
I'm all for adding more repercussions for anti-social behavior. Our characters represent a "law abiding" citizenry, even those who go out and murder and pillage in lo-sec or 0.0; there should be some stigma attached to such actions. I wouldn't mind seeing it carry over based on the personal/corporation standing with the empires either.
Originally by: Station Broker I'm sorry to tell you partner, but your money is no good here. See you killed one of my customers and he blacklisted you.
To the OP, the titan should go down to a superior force, or it should go down to the punks in noob-frigs because the pilot ran out of fuel (poor planning), or it should be rescued by his alliance who should bring the fuel needed for the escape (protecting their assets)...
Wardo21
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Draconus Lofwyr
Eternal Guardians Corp. The Covenant Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.19 21:56:00 -
[22]
I like the idea, Why cant we have something akin to a market standings.
ie. i have given corp/alliance/individual +10 market standings therefore they get a 10% discount on all dealings with me or my corp ( depending on where the standings lie) or I set a -10 standing to a named pirate corp and they will suffer a 10% inflation on all transactions with me or my corp.
Add extra social and trade skills
Embargo (corp management skill ) = add 5% increase in faction embargo effects on all market standings per lvl.
silver tounge ( social ) = reduce embargo penalties by 10% per lvl
sieged trade specialization ( corp management ) = allow targeting of 1 corp/alliance with a total trade embargo from your corp/alliance per lvl
This could allow even more political situations as corps and alliances work to allow trade between different organizations. Also allowing one alliance to act and a supplier to another combat alliance without enabling the opposition to buy out the supplies.
DL
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Windryder
New Fnord Industries Black Scope Project
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Posted - 2007.09.20 13:15:00 -
[23]
I like the idea of Draco - having the skills for tradewars and/or market based embargo effects...
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kimish
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Posted - 2007.09.20 13:50:00 -
[24]
that would give an awsome element in the game ^^ but well it would hurt the pirates, so you might as well forget it, you know how ccp likes to kiss ass on pirates and always have. _____ _____ "When the moderators are gone, the trolls dances on the table." |
WGAnubis Marrith
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.09.20 14:56:00 -
[25]
Edited by: WGAnubis Marrith on 20/09/2007 14:58:17 It wouldnt work even if implimented. Why? Player A's main character is trade embargoed so player A can do the following options:
1. Player A creates Character B. Right off the bat you can create nearly a perfect trade character that resides in an NPC corp. Player A forwards Character B X amount of money from Character A's wallet and purchases items that way. Character B can either be one of the 3 slots on the account, or be on another account all togeather that Player A controls.
2. Player A becomes self suffient. Goes to the local trade hub, buys up BPO's or BPC's, learns how to build the items and just reprocesses all the useless loot that someone was carrying (or from NPC rats) at the time into minerals to be rebuilt into ammo.
3. Player A has Player B do it for him. This ranges from a friend to an entire corporation.
Though I admit, I agree with Windryder that industrialists need to have some sort of ability of controling where their product goes, in EvE where metagaming is encouraged by giving players 3 character slots and encourages multi accounts to boot, there are just far to many work arounds to an embargo system. At most you would do is annoy Player A that he had to spend an addtional 30 seconds - 2 minutes switching characters and have him make a note of who embargoed him once he gets your name from the wallet entry indicating who he bought from.
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Vizhonia
Minmatar Pyramid Construction Golden Applesauce
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Posted - 2007.12.12 06:29:00 -
[26]
/way way signed!!
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sg3s
Caldari O.W.N. Corp FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.12.12 09:11:00 -
[27]
Embargo wars would complete trading in the EVE universe, AND it will force pirates to stay blue to atleast a single trading corp (who in their turn might just rip them off as they are the only ones that can supply them hehe)
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Tamarana
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Posted - 2007.12.12 13:26:00 -
[28]
I support this idea. For the alts, simply the embargo will effect all the characters of a player (maybe a little less than the character the embargo was called on).
If character A is embargoed (no candy for him), then Character B and C have a 50% surcharge on prices.
Players need to see only the final prices on market, not the base prices, or this will become difficult to manage for all players. They will only receive a mail with the announce that "player X" or "corp Y" or "alliance Z" have embargoed them or raise their prices for them.
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Chani Fedaykin
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Posted - 2007.12.12 13:51:00 -
[29]
well, i dont think that players should only see the final price.
even with the base price known - perhaps some competitor was smart enough to give a reduction to nearly everyone ... but you. so basically you would try to sell your items for a higher price than him ... without you even knowing.
all in all the reduction based on (market)standing would add a load of complexity to trading.
besides imo even if you 'just' make it possible to block someone from buying your items (basically why not) ... a first step would be to 'publish' the seller before you buy. because if someone has the chance to choose not to sell items to someone, the buyer should have the same possibility to choose not to buy from a specific person/corp/alliance.
...most likely ccp had a reason why they choose not to publish the vendor. but if you want an embargo feature, it has to be possible both ways. and btw if there would be such a feature, you should still be able to see what deals are closed to you.
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Ewina Acoma
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Posted - 2007.12.12 14:23:00 -
[30]
Penalties cannot be implemented because somebody can sell very valuables items for a very low cost and put a penalty on everybody to sell it at a standart price without paying the tax on the true price.
If you put a penalty in a big market, everybody else can sell without the penalties, making your enbargo invisible.
I think it could be better to have restricted acces market. Industrials can choose to get their privates markets to sell with big quantities. With a market manager who can choose to eject the black sheep.
For exemple, the moon material market in Jita could be a really private market, avoiding pirates could easily sell their stolen things.
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