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Arte
Warspite Developments
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Posted - 2007.08.07 22:19:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Neuromandis Edited by: Neuromandis on 07/08/2007 19:49:49
Originally by: Arte ...constructive criticism...
I think that what you are arguing already practically exists in the OP as well. I would tend to thinkt that what he says is that the eagle does less damage than it should. It is difficult to compare that with only that diagram, but if you compare all the diagrams together it would be easier to understand their difference.
I think I reacted the way that I did because when he replied to Pathe, he said that he had had his point illustrate to perfection, which I disagreed with.
It's difficult to prove a point when you use unrealistic situations - such as the Deimos using a full rack of 250's to "prove" that the Deimos is a "more effective rail boat" which it cannot be because of a number of issues.
I agree that if I'd looked at all the graphs together I may have seen his point more readily, focusing on the Deimos/Eagle comparison somewhat detracts from his 'message'.
I do agree that there is no real harm altogether in the Eagle getting another turret and I know that there are a number of issues with other ships that have been going on for a long long time.
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Eaterof Children
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Posted - 2007.08.07 23:05:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Eaterof Children on 07/08/2007 23:14:40
Originally by: Arte It's difficult to prove a point when you use unrealistic situations - such as the Deimos using a full rack of 250's to "prove" that the Deimos is a "more effective rail boat" which it cannot be because of a number of issues.
I admit that you at least have a point, but without an exhausting number of diagrams it would be difficult to "prove" anything. In fact, I only provided the graphs for convenience. I made this thread because I consider its point already proven from numerous discussions on these same forums, game situations where many ships are compared, and others. There are of course still numerous active discussions in the forums about this matter, and not everyone may agree with me, which is of course their right.
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Helevorn Feanaro
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Posted - 2007.08.08 07:05:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Eaterof Children
Originally by: Helevorn Feanaro I don't think your comparissons are valid. You are not adding damage from missiles, hence Caldari mixed missile/rail boats seem underpowered, e.g Moa vs. Thorax.
You are kidding, right? I also did not add drone damage, and it is triple or quadruple what the 2 missile hardpoints of the Moa or the Eagle's missiles. I purposely left them outside because if you add drones and missiles the graphs become unreadable. You are still reinforcing the argument saying that because, you may find it hard to believe, if you add missile damage and drone damage, the gallente need twice-three times the chart that the Caldari do. Let us stick to primary weapons here, though. They are enough to show a Gallente advantage, and just keep in mind that 5 med drones add thee to four times the dps of two heavy missiles, and at longer range.
No I am not kidding. Drones are useless at 60-80km, which is where you should be in a Moa. Moa gets a range BONUS. Thorax does not. Moa also has an additional hardpoint that the Thorax does not have.
I fail to see how you expect to influence the devs by not counting damage from 2 of the 6 hardpoints and then claiming that it does not do enough damage. If the charts were inclusive of missile damage, we could have a discussion about facts. As it is, it is wishfull thinking based on incomplete data.
Also, you have not answered my criticism of your statement regarding the Merlin.
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Dr Cedric
Caldari The Nietzian Way Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.09 15:03:00 -
[34]
Quote:
No I am not kidding. Drones are useless at 60-80km, which is where you should be in a Moa. Moa gets a range BONUS. Thorax does not. Moa also has an additional hardpoint that the Thorax does not have.
I fail to see how you expect to influence the devs by not counting damage from 2 of the 6 hardpoints and then claiming that it does not do enough damage. If the charts were inclusive of missile damage, we could have a discussion about facts. As it is, it is wishfull thinking based on incomplete data.
Also, you have not answered my criticism of your statement regarding the Merlin.
Heavy missles are about as effective at 80 km as the drones are. You'd have to spend more time training to specialize in Heavy missles to get them to be effective at the range your primarily using (gunnery). Missles have no place in this discussion, mostly because Caldari are restricted to using less/smaller drones and missles do not make up that difference. Keep it to the subject. at 150-175km range (where you would want to be with an Eagle or Vulture to snipe) you are extremely ineffective because of the lack of available turrets to deliver your damage.
So, back to the task at hand, +1 Turret for Moa/Eagle, Ferox/Vulture. Dr Cedric
Lead Diplomat - Shock and Awe |
Tintifish
Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.08.09 19:49:00 -
[35]
Um, you're comparing 3 almost exclusively blaster boats to 3 exclusively rail bonuses, am i the only one who doesnt get this? ><
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Dr Cedric
Caldari The Nietzian Way Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.09 22:11:00 -
[36]
Why should 3 exclusively Blaster boats be able to shoot rails with better outcomes than the 3 exclusively Rail boats....Thats the arguement, thanks for bringing it up Dr Cedric
Lead Diplomat - Shock and Awe |
Eaterof Children
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Posted - 2007.08.10 02:03:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Tintifish Um, you're comparing 3 almost exclusively blaster boats to 3 exclusively rail bonuses, am i the only one who doesnt get this? ><
Thanks dr. Cedric, you explained my point excellently.
Also, there is another small (or big, depending on your point of view) reason I put up these diagrams:
It is my personal belief (which you may disagree to of course, but I retain the right of keeping it), that there are no "blasterboats" or "railboats", there are only "hybrid boats", and the aforementioned ships are "short range blasterboats" and "short-medium range blasterboats", or "medium-long range railboats" and "long range railboats". This is non-negotiable as far as I am concerned, as long as people have the ability to fly beagles, blarpies, blasterokhs, blastermoas, railraxes, railbrutixes, railmegas, snipehyperions, and the list goes on. Also, this is perfectly fine and race-symmetrical: Amarr and Minmatar share the ability to mount either close or long range guns, the Gallente and the Caldari are also required to be effective with either long or short range guns, and they are differentiated in this by ship bonuses which define each ship's its specific abilities and quirks in each role. In short, what each of us perceives as optimal use for a ship (i.e. "this is a railboat" or "this is a sniper" or "but this is a close range platform") is neither restraining nor necessarily its optimal or "intended" use, someone else is bound to come up with a use that is either as good or even better.
To illustrate what I say, take a rokh and a hyperion. A blaster-hyperion will probably eat a blaster-rokh alive if it can get extreme close range, and the rai-rokh will probably kill the hyperion if it manages to stay well outside its optimal range with null. The middle area is contested and situational. The same way, a sniperion that shoots a sniperokh at 160km will eat it alive, while the same rokh will be able to devastate the hyperion if it shoots it from 200-230km, while the middle area is also contested and situational, with the ships doing similar damage. This is balance between ships that have bonuses for exactly the same weapon systems, blasters and railguns. The ship bonuses give them their specific quirks and abilities, but they do not restrain them to use each. Extremes tend to be useful (maximising dps or maximising range), but they are in no way the endgame, people tend to use the middle ground to great effect as well.
On the other hand, having this ship comparison when one ship (moa) is completely devastated using blasters (by a thorax) while it only has a small margin of use for its railguns is im-balanced. The reverse is also true - a ship that gets devastated when using railguns (an example would be an imaginary 4 turret thorax against a 5 turret moa), which only had a small margin of use with blasters (same example), would also be imbalanced.
That is why, according to my personal beliefs concerning hybrid boats, I posted the diagrams. They illustrate the same image you will meet with blasters, but with the rails, where things are even clearer. If you disagree with my posting the diagrams, be my guest. But don't contest their usefulness (it is pointless), if you feel THE RESULTS contestible, comment on them (Gourmindog for example did - I disagree, but he is of course entitled to his own opinion). You think they're invalid? Ignore them. If you feel their result points to something different than the OP suggests, feel free to point it out.
This is not a thread about Eaterof Children's ability to creat valid comparisons. It is a thread of the Caldari's gunboat and their relation to the rest of EVE. I'm not going to invest any more time making diagrams for something that will probably be ignored anyway. If you want better diagram comparisons, feel free to make them yourselves and of course post the results here...
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True Ace
Gallente Blood Moon Masques Lunar Dominion
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Posted - 2007.08.10 03:34:00 -
[38]
yea on paper gallente ships out damage caldari ships with rails. Thats on paper and not even a realistic view of the situation. without using rigs come up with a sniper setup with the ships u guys mentioned thats better than the caldari rail ship. then add in drone dps and missle dps at all ranges of these ships. then u can add dps tanked of these ships. only then can u begin to compare gallente blaster ships with rails and caldari rail ships.
btw deimos and thorax dnt have the slots to fit any type worth while sniping setup. they have gimp lock ranges and drone range is only about 50 to 60km.
IM YOUR KING'S KING. |
Ciara Daag
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Posted - 2007.08.10 04:52:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Plekto A better change would be to make most smaller ships able to also fit missiles.
In real life, missiles would be among the first and most basic weapons to eb used by smaller ships. As it is, it's stupidly easy to find a ship in most classes than fits all beams or rails but finding one that fits only missiles...
Find me a T1 ship smaller than a BC that can fit all of its hardpoints with missiles of any size. Right.. doesn't exist. So essentially it's useless to fit small missiles on anything except for a flycatcher.
Caracal and kestrel are missile boats.
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Magazaki
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Posted - 2007.08.12 16:01:00 -
[40]
Back to the top?
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Alunis
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Posted - 2007.08.12 21:42:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Tintifish Um, you're comparing 3 almost exclusively blaster boats to 3 exclusively rail bonuses, am i the only one who doesnt get this? ><
I've been confused from the beginning.. Fact is I happen to agree with the counter post regarding drones and missles not being factored in to this.
Drones also can be killed and negate the damage from them while missles as long as you have a supply of them are still additional damage.
This whole give caldari anything thread is nonsense. I would think the devs based upon true comparisons have a better idea of the true balance of these ships vs this chart which does not factor in nearly enough information about the ships in question and the supposed need for more turrent hardpoints.
/not signed. give it a rest.
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Alunis
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Posted - 2007.08.12 21:44:00 -
[42]
Originally by: True Ace yea on paper gallente ships out damage caldari ships with rails. Thats on paper and not even a realistic view of the situation. without using rigs come up with a sniper setup with the ships u guys mentioned thats better than the caldari rail ship. then add in drone dps and missle dps at all ranges of these ships. then u can add dps tanked of these ships. only then can u begin to compare gallente blaster ships with rails and caldari rail ships.
btw deimos and thorax dnt have the slots to fit any type worth while sniping setup. they have gimp lock ranges and drone range is only about 50 to 60km.
/amen
What I'd like to see if my drone bay back to pre-RMR capacity on the rax. BUFF RAX DRONE BAY FTW!.. j/k
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Galmar Grief
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2007.08.15 22:51:00 -
[43]
An extra turret to Eagle, Moa, Ferox and Vulture would be fantastic and actually make them used ships, the racial weaponry would be combat effective (nerf their missile slots too tbh, same goes for rokh)
I'm not sure about the Merlin, i think its pretty balanced the way it is right now, besides then people would whine about the Hookbill etc etc... I like the merlin as it is. - - - UI Suggestion for Missiles - STOP MAKING ME CRY |
KD.Fluffy
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.08.15 23:25:00 -
[44]
Quote: btw deimos and thorax dnt have the slots to fit any type worth while sniping setup. they have gimp lock ranges and drone range is only about 50 to 60km.
what are you smoking.... deimos can snipe 100km easily! and do damn good damage doing it too. same with the thorax... deimos can out damage eagle at all ranges to 100km, without its drones factored in. really its no comparison.
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MailFan
Horizon.Inc Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.16 11:44:00 -
[45]
For relevance: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=568421 --
I'm in this mood because of scorn. I'm in a mood for total war
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KD.Fluffy
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.08.16 18:20:00 -
[46]
could we get a dev response on this please?
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Jurgen Cartis
Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration
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Posted - 2007.08.19 05:21:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Plekto A better change would be to make most smaller ships able to also fit missiles.
In real life, missiles would be among the first and most basic weapons to eb used by smaller ships. As it is, it's stupidly easy to find a ship in most classes than fits all beams or rails but finding one that fits only missiles...
Find me a T1 ship smaller than a BC that can fit all of its hardpoints with missiles of any size. Right.. doesn't exist. So essentially it's useless to fit small missiles on anything except for a flycatcher.
Kestrel Heron (lol) Caracal
And in the 'close but no cigar (1 turret)' category, the Inquisitor, the Condor, Griffin and the Breacher.
Also, the T1 Caldari frigate that's supposed to be our railboat (merlin) only gets 2 turret slots. -------------------------------------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales |
Jurgen Cartis
Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration
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Posted - 2007.08.19 05:32:00 -
[48]
Originally by: True Ace yea on paper gallente ships out damage caldari ships with rails. Thats on paper and not even a realistic view of the situation. without using rigs come up with a sniper setup with the ships u guys mentioned thats better than the caldari rail ship. then add in drone dps and missle dps at all ranges of these ships. then u can add dps tanked of these ships. only then can u begin to compare gallente blaster ships with rails and caldari rail ships.
btw deimos and thorax dnt have the slots to fit any type worth while sniping setup. they have gimp lock ranges and drone range is only about 50 to 60km.
Drones are useless past 60km, and heavy missiles past 84km. At sniper ranges, Drones do nothing, and missiles with no velocity bonus are equally pointless. Including Drone/Missile DPS would actually only serve to accentuate the Thorax/Deimos' advantage in the 0-60km range bracket. 5x HH IIs with maxed skills adds up to about 160 DPS. No way two HML IIs are going to beat that. -------------------------------------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales |
Seraphim Io
Caldari Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.08.19 07:42:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Seraphim Io on 19/08/2007 07:42:59 How about some attention to the vulture as it is the worse of the 4 field command ships and sucks with blasters AND rails as an eagle can do just about as much damage in the sniping role. I refuse to accept that the only role the vulture has in this game is as a meat shield or a platform to give bonus' and contribute nothing else to the fight.
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Andreya
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Posted - 2007.08.20 15:44:00 -
[50]
im voting against, eventually caldari pilots will realize, that caldari are meant to fight at extreme ranges, and when you are at that range, you are supierior to all other races. of course you do less damage! you can shoot people when you cannot be shot back!
use your double range bonus's to their max potential and you will never complain about caldari not being god in pvp.
all those ships you mentioned will all overcome the ship you compared them to if used PROPERLY. (of course implying that both the eagle/deimos were being tackled by an inty)
caldari are perfect as is
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Andreya
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Posted - 2007.08.20 15:47:00 -
[51]
and for a better examplbe of comparing two sniper ships : a artillery muninn and a rail eagle
yes, the muninn hurts more. but your eagle shoots 50% further. if you both were pointed by a interceptor, the eagle would win... of course, this is if you were using your uber sniping ship 'properly' by making sure you have the proper sniping spots (for example 170km away from gate)
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Dr Cedric
Caldari The Nietzian Way Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.22 14:06:00 -
[52]
Putting it back on top. Ferox/Vulture and Moa/Eagle need more rail points and less missile points.
Keep pushing this. Dr Cedric
Lead Diplomat - Shock and Awe |
Ess Erbe
State War Academy
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Posted - 2007.08.22 19:31:00 -
[53]
3/2 or 3/1 turret/launcher slots for the Hookbill and Merlin would be mighty nice.
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Magazaki
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Posted - 2007.08.27 01:17:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Magazaki on 27/08/2007 01:18:33 Hey, why was this in the third page?
Ok, shameless bump, but I really hope this comes through.
The Caldari rail/blasterships don't need a boost, and this thread does not call for one. They just need to be brought in line with the rest of EVE.
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Eaterof Children
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Posted - 2007.08.31 14:01:00 -
[55]
Nice patch, but the Caldaris still need their fix I think...
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Neuromandis
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Posted - 2007.09.08 15:24:00 -
[56]
Apart from the 35 page thread on ships and modules, this needs to stay alive somewhere where it is not a flamefest... --- If someone else from my Corporation or Alliance agrees with me, he will say so. Assume nobody does :) --- WTB: Scorpion wing (left)
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S'vart Tseirgn
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Posted - 2007.12.18 06:26:00 -
[57]
*bump*
100% agree with the OP (reasons have already been covered pretty well, so I won't go into them again). Would be nice if CCP ever actually looked at this thread though......
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Dristra
Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.12.18 11:59:00 -
[58]
Why is this even a matter to discuss, the rail boats need the turrets, everyone know this.
It's great being Amarr isn't it.
Support the introduction of Blaze M crystals for Amarr!
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Eaterof Children
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Posted - 2008.02.02 02:41:00 -
[59]
As it stands, I have heard that my (and a lot other's) suggestion of +1 turret for moa,eagle and ferox has passed to the Sisi server.
Thank you.
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Nicola Sardonicus
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Posted - 2008.04.20 00:50:00 -
[60]
Sign me agreed. When I first took at look at rockets vs. rails on the Caldari and started comparing relative fittings, it was clear that Caldari's rail abilities are somewhat gimped on the Merlin, Moa, and Ferox. So I decided early on to stick to missiles pretty much out of necessity. One more turret fitting on each would solve the problem without letting things get out of hand. (Actually, another turret fitting for the Raven and/or the Rokh might be justified too, but I never really looked at that because I'm so far up the missile tree at this point and still climbing.) ____________________________________
War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength. |
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