Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Dr Ming
Mindworks
|
Posted - 2007.07.06 20:50:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Tovarishch
Numbered list time -
1. Personal insults over the Internet are reserved for children.
2. You apparently haven't read anything I've written in this thread. I not once stated that Caldari ships should be fast. If you had read what I've written you would know this to be true.
3. Read the thread linked below and please tell me that I haven't thought these problems out.
Link to thread
PS. It's 'you're'... not 'your'.
1. Correcting other people's spelling is reserved for children.
2. You implied that that I was making the the argument that since the Caldari have the Crow, that it somehow makes all their other ships good. Which is an argument which consists of 100% failed logic. It was also an argument that you had to interject into my post since it wasn't there.
I was pointing out that ALL caldari ships would be pwnmobiles just like the crow if they ALL went fast just like the crow does. Which you chose to jump on. Which makes it a perfectly reasonable assumption that your saying you disagree with that.
So if you want to flame someone about not reading a post. Look in the mirror.
Also, don't act all 'holier than thou' when your inital response contains snide rhetorical comments like 'what was I thinking?'
3. I read it. I'm not impressed.
Missile flight time only matters in 160-200km fleet sniping fests or getting on a killmail in a gate camp. Fly a Rokh when appropriate and stop worrying about getting on every KM when the fight a one sided alpha-gank fest.
PS: Your boring.
|
Tovarishch
Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
|
Posted - 2007.07.06 20:54:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Dr Ming
Originally by: Tovarishch
Numbered list time -
1. Personal insults over the Internet are reserved for children.
2. You apparently haven't read anything I've written in this thread. I not once stated that Caldari ships should be fast. If you had read what I've written you would know this to be true.
3. Read the thread linked below and please tell me that I haven't thought these problems out.
Link to thread
PS. It's 'you're'... not 'your'.
1. Correcting other people's spelling is reserved for children.
2. You implied that that I was making the the argument that since the Caldari have the Crow, that it somehow makes all their other ships good. Which is an argument which consists of 100% failed logic. It was also an argument that you had to interject into my post since it wasn't there.
I was pointing out that ALL caldari ships would be pwnmobiles just like the crow if they ALL went fast just like the crow does. Which you chose to jump on. Which makes it a perfectly reasonable assumption that your saying you disagree with that.
So if you want to flame someone about not reading a post. Look in the mirror.
Also, don't act all 'holier than thou' when your inital response contains snide rhetorical comments like 'what was I thinking?'
3. I read it. I'm not impressed.
Missile flight time only matters in 160-200km fleet sniping fests or getting on a killmail in a gate camp. Fly a Rokh when appropriate and stop worrying about getting on every KM when the fight a one sided alpha-gank fest.
PS: Your boring.
Duly noted.
Taking your rock solid arguments into account, and your less than 1 year played I think I've drawn conclusions enough to simply not argue with someone who is going to resort to personal attacks when they fail to see reason.
PS. The other thread is there for you to present your counterarguments whenever you'd like. Over and out.
All life is sacred... until the client says otherwise. |
Incantare
Caldari Darkness Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.07.06 21:21:00 -
[93]
By the way Tovarishch I still intend to post in your thread, but a long post takes time and effort which I will find, eventually.
|
Tovarishch
Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
|
Posted - 2007.07.06 21:28:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Incantare By the way Tovarishch I still intend to post in your thread, but a long post takes time and effort which I will find, eventually.
No sweat. Take your time. I look forward to hearing your ideas.
All life is sacred... until the client says otherwise. |
Dr Ming
Mindworks
|
Posted - 2007.07.06 23:04:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Tovarishch
Duly noted.
Taking your rock solid arguments into account, and your less than 1 year played I think I've drawn conclusions enough to simply not argue with someone who is going to resort to personal attacks when they fail to see reason.
PS. The other thread is there for you to present your counterarguments whenever you'd like. Over and out.
This thread is over, so I'm just going to get my flame on.
1. So your saying that my argument that 'if Caldari ships were fast and able to maintain range and evade damage while not negatively impacting their damage like the Crow can, then they would be overpowered like the Crow is' is flawed? Espeically since the nanodomi and nanophoon were both recently nerfed for that exact reason.
Which is the bloody answer to the the question posed by the original poster when taken within the obvious context that this is a game and balance trumps all other reasons.
The only person that made any insightful comments about Caldari speed and agility was Welsh when he posited that there might be a few Caldari ships that ought to be less bad at speed and agility than they currently are. I basically agree with him, but I do think the reason the Drake is so compleatly bad in this regard, is the fear of having nano drakes spamming cap-less missiles while running a capless passive tank.
2. Ascribing an arguemnt to me ('lolz caldari have the crow and that makes all their ships good') which I didn't make, and then attacking it does not count as addressing my actual argument.
So all you've done so far is either make up untrue statements and attack them or dismiss things out of hand.
3. Ever heard of something called an ad hominem argument? Its classified as a logical fallacy. Saying that my argument falls flat because my research alt is less than 1 year old qualifies.
4. If your going to get upset when someone says "your either not thinking or your really bad at it". Don't give them an opening by misrepresenting their argument and then ending your misrepresentation with the snide and sarcastic statement "What was I thinking?". Because someone may well assess the quality of your thinking (or lack thereof).
Frankly, you started it and now your crying. Pure comedy.
|
Tovarishch
Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
|
Posted - 2007.07.06 23:13:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Dr Ming
1. So your saying that my argument that 'if Caldari ships were fast and able to maintain range and evade damage while not negatively impacting their damage like the Crow can, then they would be overpowered like the Crow is' is flawed? Espeically since the nanodomi and nanophoon were both recently nerfed for that exact reason.
This singular quote right here proves to me that you haven't read a single thing I've said. Nowhere have I stated that Caldari need a speed boost. In fact, I've stated that they don't. Of course, you don't know that because you can't/won't read. You've come here to be argumentative and inconsiderate... and to, in your own words, 'get your flame on'.
The rest of your post is additional non-sense and flaming. So there's no point in addressing it... as I'm here to discuss things rationally... as opposed to 'flaming' behind the anonymity of the Internet.
Yes, the thread is over. I'll go back to only responding to cogent posts.
All life is sacred... until the client says otherwise. |
Meeko Gloom
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
|
Posted - 2007.07.07 00:33:00 -
[97]
Its called balance --------------------------
Guns dont Kill People Drones Do |
Aki Yamato
|
Posted - 2007.07.07 02:38:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Aki Yamato on 07/07/2007 02:39:23 I have encountered several games, where the formula "longrange=>slow, shortrange=>fast" does not apply, and the fastest ships has a longest range as well, still game was balanced but it was achived another way.
In EVE, speeds means MWD and Cap booster. This Combination seriously criples any caldari ship fitting, due to shortage of midslots. So we can have fast ship with below average damage and average tank, with no EW or tackling gear. Or we can have fast ship with no tank, below average damage and some EW or tackling gear.
Im not saying that caldari ships should be fastest in a game, but i thing they should have much greater agility and the gap in speeds between caldari and opther races ships should be much lower.
BTW the Rokh i rally great ship... becose once you train for it (t2 gear), you realize i takes about month to train for Gallente blasterboats
BIG GUN BIG FUTURE |
Benn Helmsman
Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company
|
Posted - 2007.07.07 02:42:00 -
[99]
Moving one low slot to a med slot for caldari would make sense, in a direct opposition to gallente ships with 4 meds and 7 lows, it would be 7 meds and 4 lows for rokh and raven.
|
KD.Fluffy
The Refugees
|
Posted - 2007.07.07 03:03:00 -
[100]
Quote: If the long ranged ships were faster than the short ranged ships, than there would be no way for the short ranged ships to ever kill the long ranged ships.
You seem to forget that most pvp happens at close range anyways. You come through a gate with soemone camping right ontop of you, these armor tanking ships have the mids for speed mods and webs. Personally, I dont see any good reason the caldari ships mass should be nerfed so horribly. They already have to use the oh so important mid slots for tank which is a huge pvp gimp right there. And you guys are scared of what? a speed tanked raven? Even with less mass this would not be possible. The nano nerf killed that.
|
|
Tovarishch
Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
|
Posted - 2007.07.07 03:20:00 -
[101]
Originally by: KD.Fluffy
Quote: If the long ranged ships were faster than the short ranged ships, than there would be no way for the short ranged ships to ever kill the long ranged ships.
You seem to forget that most pvp happens at close range anyways. You come through a gate with soemone camping right ontop of you, these armor tanking ships have the mids for speed mods and webs. Personally, I dont see any good reason the caldari ships mass should be nerfed so horribly. They already have to use the oh so important mid slots for tank which is a huge pvp gimp right there. And you guys are scared of what? a speed tanked raven? Even with less mass this would not be possible. The nano nerf killed that.
That's not entirely accurate.
Regional warefare in 0.0 means fleets. Much of combat out there is at 100k+ range. Saying that most of combat in EVE is close range depends upon where you live and what you do. In my experience, which is as a full-time merc, less than half of combat is close range (unless you're a tackler, of course).
All life is sacred... until the client says otherwise. |
Arieth K
Caldari Silent Step
|
Posted - 2007.07.07 03:22:00 -
[102]
Edited by: Arieth K on 07/07/2007 03:22:28
Originally by: Benn Helmsman Moving one low slot to a med slot for caldari would make sense, in a direct opposition to gallente ships with 4 meds and 7 lows, it would be 7 meds and 4 lows for rokh and raven.
I don't know if that's a good ideia. I don't fly Caldari but don't you need the lows to put some PDUs and Damage Mods? And armor tankers usually have to fit 2 armor repairers (there is no xl-armor repairers if I'm not mistaken). Shield tankers have an *hidden slot* on the mids that armor tankers don't have... that *hidden slot* have a very nice shield recharger.
I'm not saying that Caldari ships don't have PVP problems (mwd, web, scram, shields, everything is a mid) and that they don't need some sort of tweaking tho. An increase in missile velocity could be a nice start, but Alpha Strike should continue to belong to projectiles imo, so don't increase the missile speed too much please
I don't agree with a speed increase or less mass in missile ships. Explosion velocity only takes into account your target speed, not your own. Turret tracking takes into account your speed and your target speed. But maybe they can make the ships more agile, without touching the speed/mass.
|
Alyssee
|
Posted - 2007.07.07 03:33:00 -
[103]
Edited by: Alyssee on 07/07/2007 03:41:47
There is no "hidden" slot saved by an XL booster over two armor reps as an XL booster is not equivalent to 2 reps. You need a shield boost amplifier as well for both to be comparable (with the shield tanker being slightly better off).
Quote:
I don't agree with a speed increase or less mass in missile ships. Explosion velocity only takes into account your target speed, not your own. Turret tracking takes into account your speed and your target speed. But maybe they can make the ships more agile, without touching the speed/mass.
Speed isn't just necessary to get your guns to track, more importantly it is useful for getting out of danger, staying out of web range or keeping a target inside web range without a web. Or should only gun ships be able to do that?
|
Arieth K
Caldari Silent Step
|
Posted - 2007.07.07 03:36:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Alyssee There is no "hidden" slot saved by an XL booster over two armor reps as an XL booster is not equivalent to 2 reps. You need a shield boost amplifier as well for both to be comparable (with the shield tanker being slightly better off).
Compared to 2 Large Armor Repairers right? What I was trying to say is that shields regen over time, while armor don't. That was the "hidden" slot I was referring to.
|
Alyssee
|
Posted - 2007.07.07 03:42:00 -
[105]
OK I see what you mean. I have trouble considering that as an extra slot but rather as a particularity of shields. Base shield regen on most ships is low and it's extra modules that make it worth anything.
|
Arieth K
Caldari Silent Step
|
Posted - 2007.07.07 03:59:00 -
[106]
About the speed/mass, I still think it would *overpower* the Caldari missile ships. An increase in agility should be enough for those imo.
But this is a *noobish* opinion, like I said, I still don't fly Caldari ships much.
|
Alyssee
|
Posted - 2007.07.07 04:09:00 -
[107]
Edited by: Alyssee on 07/07/2007 04:09:27
Ah but I would like to hear you explain why you think it would make them overpowered, there has to be a reason. People aren't asking that they be made extremely fast. If they were kept the slowest race but that the gap be smaller could you consider that overpowered?
|
Benn Helmsman
Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company
|
Posted - 2007.07.07 04:11:00 -
[108]
Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 07/07/2007 04:10:58 The big problem of caldari ships: they suffer a leak in CPU... they got some more from the start, but compare T2 Siege launcher with T2 Ion Blaster Cannons.. they need the same PG (which seems to be ok, since not much PG needed after that) but a LOT more CPU, with a XL booster you will get in serious trouble to fit anything else that needs CPU without fitting a CO-CPU or a rig.
|
Alyssee
|
Posted - 2007.07.07 04:16:00 -
[109]
There are no cpu rigs unfortunately but I agree CPU is extremely tight on siege setups.
Armor tankers also have CPU problems though.
|
Benn Helmsman
Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company
|
Posted - 2007.07.07 04:20:00 -
[110]
Eh yeah i meant implants sry
|
|
Arieth K
Caldari Silent Step
|
Posted - 2007.07.07 04:23:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Alyssee Edited by: Alyssee on 07/07/2007 04:09:27
Ah but I would like to hear you explain why you think it would make them overpowered, there has to be a reason. People aren't asking that they be made extremely fast. If they were kept the slowest race but that the gap be smaller could you consider that overpowered?
The Crow is the third slowest interceptor of them all (base speed) and it's the intercepter with the lowest mass (same as malediction), and look where the Crow is. The problem is not the speed itself but the speed/missiles mix. Whatever changes will be made (if they will be made), the devs must have extra care when increasing the base speed or reducing the mass of missile ships. The same doesn't apply to Caldari turret ships.
|
Alyssee
|
Posted - 2007.07.07 05:37:00 -
[112]
What makes the crow so powerful is being able to move at high speed taking little to no damage itself without losing missile damage.
But the same argument cannot be made for larger ships. For example if the Drake had the mass of the Myrm, and the Raven of the Mega they would still not be able to speedtank well because even though they could reach higher straight line speeds than they do now, they cannot maintain that speed in turns like a crow can. That and Caldari ships have few low slots for speed mods.
The only way that could be a problem would be if Caldari were given extremely low mass, similar or lower than Minmatar but I don't see that happening, nor do I want to see it happen.
|
Hotshothotshot1
|
Posted - 2007.07.07 08:33:00 -
[113]
Edited by: Hotshothotshot1 on 07/07/2007 08:33:39 Comparing a crow with the other ships doesnt really apply if you ask me. Crow was made to speed tank, that it can do damage on a distance is just a plus.
What we are asking here is just to speed up caldari ships a little bit and make them lose a bit of weight. You can still hit the ships. its not like them would see a raven doing 6kms while shooting torps at you.
Minmatar BS arent outrunning all the weapons arent they? they still get hit. And we arent asking for minmatar speed. we're asking for a little boost. Plus we have the biggest signature radius already.
|
Caithan ArcFade
Caldari Cornerstone Unlimited Curse Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.07.07 11:06:00 -
[114]
Simple - Caldari Have big fat shield generators :P
-----
|
welsh wizard
0utbreak
|
Posted - 2007.07.07 11:28:00 -
[115]
Edited by: welsh wizard on 07/07/2007 11:43:03 After reading comments about speed & missile ships its become apparent that the problem is the range of the weapon. A fast agile heavy missile ship (Huginn? :P) could be a little too much so instead the ships bonuses should encourage the use of a close range weapons system, HAM's.
Personally I'd like to see the Drake changed completely, I believe we were told the tier II BC's would be gank ships and that isn't what Caldari got. We got a more efficent mission runner and another heavy tank gang ship.
The Drake should have a damage bonus to HAM's only (all damage types) in place of its kinetic damage bonus. HAM's (on the Drake) should still be a short ranged weapon but they should be gank, not slightly more powerful than heavy missiles.
This leads us to the classical Caldari dillema, the shield tank and the close range fit, difficult to get around. Drop the resist bonus for the same bonus a Megathron gets to MWD fitting and move the high utility slot & a low slot to the mids giving: 7:8:3. This way we can maintain a tank (of sorts) with an mwd, web & disruptor but without the resist bonus. This could lead to some ridiculous active tanks but if people do that they lose the positive aspects of HAM use and any form of mobility. Also this active tank would still be knowhere near as tough as a proper passive Drake tank is now.
The other problem is 3 lows, again I don't really see a way round it. The ship is going to have to have a cap injector as it won't have room for PDU's if it wants to fit for damage or speed. Also shield tanks really aren't designed to be used with an mwd as they are highly cap intensive and boost very fast making cap management difficult, this is why the MWD fit bonus (like the Megas) could work.
This would need to be coupled with a signfificant weight reduction of course, this way Caldari finally get a taste of the cookie the other races can eat. It'd also need a grid increase to allow HAM & MWD fitting. A further issue people might raise is that all this still allows a Drake to fly at high speeds while packing 7 heavy missile launchers, could just make heavy launchers inoperable on a Drake or give them a negative flight time bonus or something. :P
Either that or just reverse the mids:lows and make it the first Caldari armour tank :E .
It's all a pipedream though :/
*edited multiple times for layout & grammar)
|
PWNERIZE
|
Posted - 2007.07.07 11:35:00 -
[116]
I wouldn't mind seeing a HAM only bonus if the Drakes mass were reduced, and HAMs were easier to fit.
|
Benn Helmsman
Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company
|
Posted - 2007.07.07 15:47:00 -
[117]
Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 07/07/2007 11:43:03 After reading comments about speed & missile ships its become apparent that the problem is the range of the weapon. A fast agile heavy missile ship (Huginn? :P) could be a little too much so instead the ships bonuses should encourage the use of a close range weapons system, HAM's.
Personally I'd like to see the Drake changed completely, I believe we were told the tier II BC's would be gank ships and that isn't what Caldari got. We got a more efficent mission runner and another heavy tank gang ship.
The Drake should have a damage bonus to HAM's only (all damage types) in place of its kinetic damage bonus. HAM's (on the Drake) should still be a short ranged weapon but they should be gank, not slightly more powerful than heavy missiles.
This leads us to the classical Caldari dillema, the shield tank and the close range fit, difficult to get around. Drop the resist bonus for the same bonus a Megathron gets to MWD fitting and move the high utility slot & a low slot to the mids giving: 7:8:3. This way we can maintain a tank (of sorts) with an mwd, web & disruptor but without the resist bonus. This could lead to some ridiculous active tanks but if people do that they lose the positive aspects of HAM use and any form of mobility. Also this active tank would still be knowhere near as tough as a proper passive Drake tank is now.
The other problem is 3 lows, again I don't really see a way round it. The ship is going to have to have a cap injector as it won't have room for PDU's if it wants to fit for damage or speed. Also shield tanks really aren't designed to be used with an mwd as they are highly cap intensive and boost very fast making cap management difficult, this is why the MWD fit bonus (like the Megas) could work.
This would need to be coupled with a signfificant weight reduction of course, this way Caldari finally get a taste of the cookie the other races can eat. It'd also need a grid increase to allow HAM & MWD fitting. A further issue people might raise is that all this still allows a Drake to fly at high speeds while packing 7 heavy missile launchers, could just make heavy launchers inoperable on a Drake or give them a negative flight time bonus or something. :P
Either that or just reverse the mids:lows and make it the first Caldari armour tank :E .
It's all a pipedream though :/
*edited multiple times for layout & grammar)
Have you ever checked the stats of HAMs? They are so plain useless it hurts, especially since they arent affected by precision skills like torps are. Explosion speed of 750 m/s for long range and 250m/s for high damage?? Explosion radius of 125m for long range, 200(!!) for high damage, which cant be reduced... useful? not at all
|
KD.Fluffy
The Refugees
|
Posted - 2007.07.07 16:10:00 -
[118]
Quote: Regional warefare in 0.0 means fleets. Much of combat out there is at 100k+ range. Saying that most of combat in EVE is close range depends upon where you live and what you do. In my experience, which is as a full-time merc, less than half of combat is close range (unless you're a tackler, of course).
Ok so your saying caldari missle boats have an advantage in fleet farware at 100km plus? rofl? How many sniper ravens do you see in fleets. The only good fleet ship caldari have is the rokh, and it is so slow to allign your probably better off in a sniping mega or tempest. If the rokh didnt allign so slow, and was a bit more agile it might become a good ship.
|
Tovarishch
Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
|
Posted - 2007.07.07 16:47:00 -
[119]
Originally by: KD.Fluffy
Quote: Regional warefare in 0.0 means fleets. Much of combat out there is at 100k+ range. Saying that most of combat in EVE is close range depends upon where you live and what you do. In my experience, which is as a full-time merc, less than half of combat is close range (unless you're a tackler, of course).
Ok so your saying caldari missle boats have an advantage in fleet farware at 100km plus? rofl? How many sniper ravens do you see in fleets. The only good fleet ship caldari have is the rokh, and it is so slow to allign your probably better off in a sniping mega or tempest. If the rokh didnt allign so slow, and was a bit more agile it might become a good ship.
Hey KD, I'm not sure why you've intrepreted my post in such a way... but I have been saying the exact opposite. Missiles in fleets are a joke.
Read this thread of mine for some ideas (I've linked it elsewhere in the thread... but here it is again) - Link to thread
Hopefully that will clarify things for you.
All life is sacred... until the client says otherwise. |
KD.Fluffy
The Refugees
|
Posted - 2007.07.07 18:37:00 -
[120]
Ok sorry to misconstrue what you have said. My point is that caldari ships in fleets suck as well, partially becuase of their mass and horrible allign times.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |