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Cambarus
Baros Reloaded
112
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Posted - 2012.01.06 04:21:00 -
[31] - Quote
Some of the problems with nerfing incursions:
You can pull in 60m/hour fairly easily running level 4s when you get to the ships being used in incursions. Things that require groups SHOULD pay out more than things that you can do solo. [/irony]
Null/lowsec incursions already have payouts that make them extremely well balanced vs the highsec ones, moreso than pretty much every other aspect of the game. The only problem lies in the inability to force incursions to spawn in null.
It's way too late to reduce the frequency of highsec incursions. It's an aspect of the game that has a fairly large community, and killing off the only real group oriented highsec PVE isn't going to make people move on to other aspects of the game, it;s going to make them quit. Isk aside, it's something that offers a unique experience and simply removing it or making it unreachable for a large chunk of the players currently running them certainly won't do anything for the "health" of the game. Hell, can you imagine if CCP announced that they were going to introduce a patch that stopped all pvp, except for certain special "events" where players would be allowed to shoot each other every now and then?
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Endeavour Starfleet
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
522
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Posted - 2012.01.06 04:53:00 -
[32] - Quote
Emperor Salazar wrote:As for the risks you outlined, they basically boil down to:
poor internet crappy pilots other incompetence
These aren't risks. They're just eve players sucking.
Players sucking = Huge risk for you. Maybe not to Test or goons that are used to chickens running around with their heads off. But for limited incursion fleets with limited logi chain support is is VERY bad. Look at BTL Pub and you will find tales of people losing their pimped ships to a drunk logi pilot.
The vastly increased risk on your good stuff is what nets you more funds. Which are 60 percent (Already vastly nerfed) compared to nullsec.
BTW as for your stuff about not representing your alliance. You are not using a posting alt. You are using your main or whatever alt your in Test with so you are using that like it gives you authority on the subject. I don't know what rules your alliance has on that (Every one I have ever been in demands you use a posting alt) but when I see you posting as a main I take it as atleast the feeling from your alliance.
Because alliances are suffering from incursions. Now when they say "Join us for a 12 hour spree of defending someone elses station or TCUs or log the **** out" Members are saying "Okay!" and going for incursions on an alt. Alliances are not used to having anything but near complete control over their member's activities and now there is something that competes with their political BS known as "grouping"
So we have 3 groups that are against Incursions for all the wrong reasons.
#1 Fools on forums who have never been in a serious incursion fleet or watched BTL Pub for hours for stories: This is the majority of the calls out there. People who are stuck in a system with an AFK cloaker and want something to moan about.
#2 ""Shiny Fleet"" Incursion runners who are beyond care for other types: I saw this alot today in the BTL Pub channel and an in my opinion full of BS blog report on Evenews24. Their desire for Vanguard nerfing is obvious. Many HIGHLY HIGHLY expensive shiny fleets will almost always win a contest with any even well managed nonshiny fleet. With a nerf the nonshiny fleets will just about vanish and they will get to enjoy higher LP prices while the rest of EVE remains the same. Back to LVL4 missions.
#3 (And worse of all) Heads of Alliances I noted this earlier. Incursions weaken their grip of power over their members. This especially hurts those without proper SRPs (The ones that pocket moon goo funds or use it on a good ole boy club only) The bits about ruining logistics is BS. They have more than enough members to organize a very quick pop of incursions in their space. Many do not tho because introducing members to incursions could mean even less power. So they sit and whine instead.
CCP Knows this and this is why they will not be nerfed. |
Tauranon
Weeesearch
21
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Posted - 2012.01.06 04:55:00 -
[33] - Quote
Emperor Salazar wrote:GUYS HES IN TEST, A 0.0 ALLIANCE, HE MUST REPRESENT THEIR OFFICIAL WORD. HE IS DEFINITELY THEIR SPOKESPERSON
you are literally saying that the risk is the potential for large alliances to co*ck block you
I don't even know what to say to that....thats not risk...thats just stupid
aye, so you don't want a conversation about the topic, you want to insult people. welcome to eve forums Tauranon, enjoy your stay
They are public resource fountains in 2 or 3 public map published locations in highsec, with all the resources located on public beacons that don't even need to be scanned down. They are by design easily interdicted and harrassed, or even just smothered in competition.
I don't do them myself, but I understand that they can be closed extremely quickly if a fleet was dedicated to taking the motherships asap is deployed, at which time the isk fountain stops. As it stands, the INCOME available is simply based on bears agreeing to NOT destroy the mothership until withdrawal starts, you know - cooperative play between humans and all that.
You are in an organisation of thousands of people, some of whom have historically appeared to derive great enjoyment from highsec harrassment, if you don't like the state of the income of incursions, its within your grasp to do something about it, even if your corp/alliance management isn't involved. Hell I'm sure you could find 20 or 40 nullbears or whatever is required that LIKE shooting red crosses if that was the method of harrassment chosen. They would be well paid doing so, simply because the encounter they need to do is well paid.
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Spineker
94
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Posted - 2012.01.06 05:00:00 -
[34] - Quote
Emperor Salazar wrote:Endeavour Starfleet wrote:They are fine as is. They do not need to be changed. The risk is huge for the reward. lol at incursions being risky
OMG I agree with Salazar! |
Substantia Nigra
NFI industrial Revival Of The Talocan Empire
305
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Posted - 2012.01.06 05:56:00 -
[35] - Quote
Emperor Salazar wrote:As for the risks you outlined, they basically boil down to: poor internet crappy pilots; other incompetence These aren't risks. They're just eve players sucking.
Either that's a major troll effort, or you don't have a clue what risk is.
poor internet and the actions of other pilots **are** elements that contribute to the overall risk, and they are risk. Risk applies is hisec, lowsec, nullsec, and w-space. It's just the quantum of the risk that differs, not its presence or absence, and often the risk appetite of those who embrace it.
Different people accept or reject different levels of risk in different circumstances. This happens continuously in RL, just as it does in eve.
Risk:reward arguments are also a bit of a fail, because one person's perception of both risk and reward, in any given situation, will differ from another person's. The fact that others do not share your espoused view on risk or reward does not necessarily make you wrong.
The suckiness of other players, and of oneself, are most certainly risks and as such contribute to the overall risk.
We can build and sell pretty much every ship. Check my bio for details. Our pirate epic arc completion packages really are very good: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=12973&find=unread |
Substantia Nigra
NFI industrial Revival Of The Talocan Empire
305
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Posted - 2012.01.06 05:57:00 -
[36] - Quote
Spineker wrote:OMG I agree with Salazar!
You forgot to take your tablets this morning, didn't you? We can build and sell pretty much every ship. Check my bio for details. Our pirate epic arc completion packages really are very good: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=12973&find=unread |
Spineker
94
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Posted - 2012.01.06 06:01:00 -
[37] - Quote
Substantia Nigra wrote:Spineker wrote:OMG I agree with Salazar! You forgot to take your tablets this morning, didn't you?
I forgot! the prozac! |
Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
31
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Posted - 2012.01.06 09:16:00 -
[38] - Quote
Nerfin the only enjoyable highsec thing in eve sounds like a bad idea. Im the kinda player that logs in 2-6 times a month due to time limitations, Incursions are the only thing that kept my gametime rolling.
They are social group action where you actually can go and find a fleet in reasonable time (in a proper suitable ship) and go do some isk and actually enjoy the game.
Ruining the highsec incursions due to dim ideas like "Oh yeah 100% of the incursion players would totally go to lowsec if they had to" would be very unfortunate. Those are the wet dreams of a guy sitting in some low-high gate waiting for some newguy pop in with a badger full of planetarystuff.
Going back to level 4 missions personally would mean a sub off ... I doubt any sane person actually enjoys grinding those over and over and over again all alone. Maybe im wrong and EVE is actually the hometown of foreveralone guys. |
King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
129
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Posted - 2012.01.06 09:27:00 -
[39] - Quote
Set the isk reward for high sec incursions to 0. Problem solved. Double the LP to compensate if you like, I really don't care. But the raw isk needs to go. It's flooding the eve economy. That said, the blog post is pretty reasonable and well thought out. |
Soon Shin
Abyssal Heavy Industries Narwhals Ate My Duck
42
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Posted - 2012.01.06 10:28:00 -
[40] - Quote
Incursions do indeed make isks at fairly low risk, but instead of risk you get competition.
Non-shiny fleet will take 10-15 minutes to do a site, while shiny fleets with good FC's with high skilled pilots could do them in 3-6 minutes.
With more and more people turning to incursions, the areas become more crowded while the number of sites available at a time remain constant.
People must compete over who gets the reward from the site, the winner gets paid, the other fleets that come in gain nothing for the work they put in.
To be competitive, most competent fleets will accept only shiny ships with atleast faction or t2 weapons and tank. Navy/Pirate Faction and t2 Battleships, T3 Cruisers, Command Ships, Logistics Level 5 and maybe 4 are the what is desired. If you're not flying any of these the chances of you getting in a good fleet is rather low. If you get accept you will mostly get accepted into a crap fleet with FC's who don't know **** and get everyone killed.
Now the next thing that is wanted is your fitting and modules. If you can't use Tech 2 weapons or atleast fit faction, you chances greatly drop from there, nothing looks worse than having a nice machariels with meta 4 or lower guns on it. Faction or Tech 2 Tank is mandatory, if you can't do that you are worthless as you will die.
Incursions will weed out the poor and skillless pilots and be run exclusively by the rich and skilled pilots with better organization.
TLDR: Limit only to ONE Incursion area for High Sec and reduce the number of sites available at once until the previous ones are cleared.
This will emphasis competition even more and prevent incursions from generating too much isk as it will fall into fewer hands. |
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Endeavour Starfleet
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
522
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Posted - 2012.01.06 11:10:00 -
[41] - Quote
King Rothgar wrote:Set the isk reward for high sec incursions to 0. Problem solved. Double the LP to compensate if you like, I really don't care. But the raw isk needs to go. It's flooding the eve economy. That said, the blog post is pretty reasonable and well thought out.
Um no...
Learn to fly a proper incursion fit. Claiming it is "flooding the economy" Which is BS because otherwise these people would be doing IVs and sanctums that "flood" as well.
Don't try to bring up the Plex prices.
#1 Its the time of year where many don't have as much funds to buy plex and that decreases supply.
#2 The high cost is also due to many people returning to EVE with the Crucible expansion.
Plex is never going back down to 200M Back then you could use GTCs that were 15 bucks at the local store. Now a single plex is 19. At some point people are going to just stop buying plex to sell even if CCP shut down incursions and other good money makers.
Incursions are what PVE should be. Grouping to the max. Any nerfing on that will just cause the old issues to return. |
Endeavour Starfleet
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
522
|
Posted - 2012.01.06 11:17:00 -
[42] - Quote
Oh BTW if you see someone on here saying the "solution" is to reduce frequency of incursions or others including nerfing just vanguards. In my opinion that someone is a "shiny fleet" runner with nothing but dislike for anything that isn't shiny.
He/She thinks that nonshiny fleets are causing LP effective prices to be far too low for their taste. And they are in a perfect fleet for winning contests so they can afford a few losses to others if it means the LP jumps in price on what it brings.
THAT is the kind of crap that ruins the incursion image. There is a shiny fleet then there is a fleet of elitists who want to hog incursions to themselves.
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Mnemosyne Gloob
Teshnology Inc. Stealth Wear Inc.
29
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Posted - 2012.01.06 11:23:00 -
[43] - Quote
I did partake in incursions once and was a bit baffled by the isk flowing in by doing such a mind numbingly boring thing (once you have done a particular site maybe 2 or 3 times as a simple dps guy). Anyway what i really do not get is how they can introduce a mechanic that lets players 'farm' these incursions by people not killing the final ship ... IMO this is a bad design decision. If the incursions would end naturally after a bit when the control has been gotten back it would change a lot, i think.
Oh and people threatening to 'quit' if they can't do it anymore are just funny (or not actually). |
fuer0n
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
63
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Posted - 2012.01.06 12:06:00 -
[44] - Quote
also people are not factoring in the other alt accounts behind the scienes that the shinys use to make that 4min per site, scouts to sit at gates to watch for gankers if you have wartargets in fleet and they dont check enough. scouts for checking out sites, ore droppers, ganglink offgrid boosters, people in wait listsetc. all of it brings down the "earnings" per account if we are talking raw numbers. |
J Kunjeh
311
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Posted - 2012.01.06 12:25:00 -
[45] - Quote
Jester's at it again...brilliant. He's going to get a lot of hate for this one, but I think his suggestions have merit and should be considered by CCP. "The world as we know it came about through an anomaly (anomou)" (The Gospel of Philip, 1-5)-á |
fuer0n
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
63
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Posted - 2012.01.06 13:04:00 -
[46] - Quote
prefer some kind of escallation myself. make people want to move to lowsec and make it random so low sec pvpers cant "camp" certain gates/systems, the logistics of this would be fun and challenging, people would fit for more sensible pvp like fits and be ready to fight back, fleet warping through a scouted gate into losec where the campers on the gate waiting for easy targets being annihilated sounds like fun to me. make it kinda like a spinoff story from normal incursion running "your fleet has been picked for a special mission xxx reward should you choose to take it, xxx penalty should you decline". ramp it up as incursion systems get busy. could even make it system wide and people could volenteer for said missions, can see it in BTL pub now - FC looking for pvp fitted ships to low sec mission. nearly every really good FC is experienced in running some kind of pvp ops. not all incursion runners are experienced in fleet pvp be it on a large or small scale and they are more likley to try it with some people they are vaguely familiar with even if it isnt in their shiny shiny ship. everyone in the fleet benefits be it support people guarding the gate or people inside running the incursion.
losec incursion special missions would be into null and null sec incursions have to move into an enemy alliance area.
stop trying to get it nerfed and suggest ways to improve on what's there already. |
Deen Wispa
56
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Posted - 2012.01.06 14:33:00 -
[47] - Quote
Emperor Salazar wrote:As for the risks you outlined, they basically boil down to:
poor internet crappy pilots other incompetence
These aren't risks. They're just eve players sucking.
Which is a risk unto itself :)
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Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
2674
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Posted - 2012.01.06 14:35:00 -
[48] - Quote
Deen Wispa wrote:Emperor Salazar wrote:As for the risks you outlined, they basically boil down to:
poor internet crappy pilots other incompetence
These aren't risks. They're just eve players sucking. Which is a risk unto itself :)
Aero for Dean
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki |
Kara Books
Hedion University Amarr Empire
84
|
Posted - 2012.01.06 18:03:00 -
[49] - Quote
on a side note, nerfing something very popular will almost definitely have a negative effect on the subscriber count and absolutely certainly, a horribly devastating effect on the markets in the short term.
the very rich, have everything, the people who have little to nothing, are 90% of my customer base, if they do not have the same ISK to spend on my goods then I will be hurt, they will be hurt and you will gain? more recruits?
What is your hidden agenda? what is the endgame you seek?
Your originality is 0/10 Your trolling is 1/10 you sir, have to much time on your hands. |
Emperor Salazar
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
408
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Posted - 2012.01.06 18:05:00 -
[50] - Quote
Kara Books wrote:on a side note, nerfing something very popular will almost definitely have a negative effect on the subscriber count and absolutely certainly, a horribly devastating effect on the markets in the short term.
This is precisely why nothing will change. Not because CCP agrees with you farmers, but because they like having RL money. |
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Emperor Salazar
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
408
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Posted - 2012.01.06 18:07:00 -
[51] - Quote
King Rothgar wrote:Set the isk reward for high sec incursions to 0. Problem solved. Double the LP to compensate if you like, I really don't care. But the raw isk needs to go. It's flooding the eve economy. That said, the blog post is pretty reasonable and well thought out.
I agree with this.
You idiots actually like inflation or something? |
Emperor Salazar
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
408
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Posted - 2012.01.06 18:09:00 -
[52] - Quote
Tauranon wrote:Emperor Salazar wrote:GUYS HES IN TEST, A 0.0 ALLIANCE, HE MUST REPRESENT THEIR OFFICIAL WORD. HE IS DEFINITELY THEIR SPOKESPERSON
you are literally saying that the risk is the potential for large alliances to co*ck block you
I don't even know what to say to that....thats not risk...thats just stupid aye, so you don't want a conversation about the topic, you want to insult people. welcome to eve forums Tauranon, enjoy your stay They are public resource fountains in 2 or 3 public map published locations in highsec, with all the resources located on public beacons that don't even need to be scanned down. They are by design easily interdicted and harrassed, or even just smothered in competition. I don't do them myself, but I understand that they can be closed extremely quickly if a fleet was dedicated to taking the motherships asap is deployed, at which time the isk fountain stops. As it stands, the INCOME available is simply based on bears agreeing to NOT destroy the mothership until withdrawal starts, you know - cooperative play between humans and all that. You are in an organisation of thousands of people, some of whom have historically appeared to derive great enjoyment from highsec harrassment, if you don't like the state of the income of incursions, its within your grasp to do something about it, even if your corp/alliance management isn't involved. Hell I'm sure you could find 20 or 40 nullbears or whatever is required that LIKE shooting red crosses if that was the method of harrassment chosen. They would be well paid doing so, simply because the encounter they need to do is well paid.
Sanctum farming can be shut down by roaming gangs. Therefore, I propose that sanctums get a massive isk boost with the notion that you can shut them down simply by coming and killing the ratter. |
Emperor Salazar
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
408
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Posted - 2012.01.06 18:10:00 -
[53] - Quote
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
eve players sucking/being drunk/disconnecting/mistiming things is a risk .
please tell me you are not honestly saying that the game should be balanced to account for players being terrible at internet spaceships |
Goose99
642
|
Posted - 2012.01.06 18:15:00 -
[54] - Quote
Emperor Salazar wrote:Tauranon wrote:Emperor Salazar wrote:GUYS HES IN TEST, A 0.0 ALLIANCE, HE MUST REPRESENT THEIR OFFICIAL WORD. HE IS DEFINITELY THEIR SPOKESPERSON
you are literally saying that the risk is the potential for large alliances to co*ck block you
I don't even know what to say to that....thats not risk...thats just stupid aye, so you don't want a conversation about the topic, you want to insult people. welcome to eve forums Tauranon, enjoy your stay They are public resource fountains in 2 or 3 public map published locations in highsec, with all the resources located on public beacons that don't even need to be scanned down. They are by design easily interdicted and harrassed, or even just smothered in competition. I don't do them myself, but I understand that they can be closed extremely quickly if a fleet was dedicated to taking the motherships asap is deployed, at which time the isk fountain stops. As it stands, the INCOME available is simply based on bears agreeing to NOT destroy the mothership until withdrawal starts, you know - cooperative play between humans and all that. You are in an organisation of thousands of people, some of whom have historically appeared to derive great enjoyment from highsec harrassment, if you don't like the state of the income of incursions, its within your grasp to do something about it, even if your corp/alliance management isn't involved. Hell I'm sure you could find 20 or 40 nullbears or whatever is required that LIKE shooting red crosses if that was the method of harrassment chosen. They would be well paid doing so, simply because the encounter they need to do is well paid. Sanctum farming can be shut down by roaming gangs. Therefore, I propose that sanctums get a massive isk boost with the notion that you can shut them down simply by coming and killing the ratter.
To this effect, Sanctums should be moved to lowsec systems bordering highsec. |
Ammzi
Imperial Guardians
755
|
Posted - 2012.01.07 11:59:00 -
[55] - Quote
Emperor Salazar wrote:
Incursions could have been the buff low sec needed. They should have been low sec only, 100%. People would have gone and people would have made lots of money. With proper fleets and aggression mechanics from rats, properly setup fleets would have actually been pretty safe from the mean pvpers. Hell they would have become pvpers (similar to wormholers...ever tried to gank a properly setup wormhole fleet?). At any rate, riches would have been had, but with some real risk. And there would have been plenty of pvp.
As it is, incursions are just the newest safe isk farming venture in eve, ala raids from WoW.
Well someone here is delusional. Not that it is a surprise to me. quote CCP Spitfire
"Hello Im Blue,"
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XXSketchxx
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
74
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Posted - 2012.01.07 16:11:00 -
[56] - Quote
Ammzi wrote:Emperor Salazar wrote:
Incursions could have been the buff low sec needed. They should have been low sec only, 100%. People would have gone and people would have made lots of money. With proper fleets and aggression mechanics from rats, properly setup fleets would have actually been pretty safe from the mean pvpers. Hell they would have become pvpers (similar to wormholers...ever tried to gank a properly setup wormhole fleet?). At any rate, riches would have been had, but with some real risk. And there would have been plenty of pvp.
As it is, incursions are just the newest safe isk farming venture in eve, ala raids from WoW.
Well someone here is delusional. Not that it is a surprise to me.
Please feel free to elaborate on your definition of delusional. |
Cambarus
Baros Reloaded
114
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Posted - 2012.01.07 18:11:00 -
[57] - Quote
XXSketchxx wrote:Ammzi wrote:Emperor Salazar wrote:
Incursions could have been the buff low sec needed. They should have been low sec only, 100%. People would have gone and people would have made lots of money. With proper fleets and aggression mechanics from rats, properly setup fleets would have actually been pretty safe from the mean pvpers. Hell they would have become pvpers (similar to wormholers...ever tried to gank a properly setup wormhole fleet?). At any rate, riches would have been had, but with some real risk. And there would have been plenty of pvp.
As it is, incursions are just the newest safe isk farming venture in eve, ala raids from WoW.
Well someone here is delusional. Not that it is a surprise to me. Please feel free to elaborate on your definition of delusional. I too believe that level 5s in lowsec are exactly what it needs to get people to move out there.
Oh wait... |
XXSketchxx
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
74
|
Posted - 2012.01.07 19:05:00 -
[58] - Quote
Did I say that? The only way level 5s work is if you have protection, i,.e Intel. Unfortunately lvl 5s are terrible and just not worth doing.
Groups of people doing incursions in pvp fit ships would be more than safe in low sec and the rewards would be amazing if incursions were solely in low sec. Unfortunately care bears need high sec to feel safe, god forbid they work together to defend themselves and get rich. |
Endeavour Starfleet
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
524
|
Posted - 2012.01.07 19:31:00 -
[59] - Quote
No. Incursions shall and should not be messed with at this time. They encourage group play in hisec and players have a means to reduce it.
Just admit you don't like people actually being able to log into incursion alts when you DEMAND they go on your roams or log off. You and other alliance PVP guys want them in lowsec so you can have back the power you have over your members. |
Cambarus
Baros Reloaded
114
|
Posted - 2012.01.07 19:35:00 -
[60] - Quote
XXSketchxx wrote:Did I say that? The only way level 5s work is if you have protection, i,.e Intel. Unfortunately lvl 5s are terrible and just not worth doing.
Groups of people doing level 5s in pvp fit ships would be more than safe in low sec and the rewards would be amazing if level 5s were solely in low sec Since my previous point apparently soared over your head, perhaps this less subtle post will enlighten you.
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