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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.06.21 17:16:00 -
[1]
Two things. First, the way "dynamic mission rewards" are calculated. Second, the lack of any such dynamic changes in LP shop offers.
Dynamic mission rewards
Don't get me wrong, the fact it's dynamic is not a problem. But the WAY this dynamic value is calculated gives me the creeps. And last but not least, the "starting values" are something to at.
So, what's wrong then ?
First off, I have this nagging impression a refusal of a mission and/or a mission failure will NOT affect the rewards at all. I can't say for sure, I'm not a dev, so I'm just jabbing at it half-blind. But judging on how LP rewards for L5 missions are proceeding on SiSi, I can only conclude that SUCCESFULLY completed mission time is taken into account, and nothing else. Which by itself is pooh-pooh, but meh, let's say it would be still bearable if it wasn't for...
The initial values all missions get reset to whenever there's a change in the mission itself, no matter how small. Basically, all missions are reset to MINIMUM possible rewards. Now, I could understand a reset at MAXIMUM possible rewards, I could even understand a "no reset" at all, but why, oh, why a reset at minimum ?
Combine these two factors together, and you have a very nasty situation in the first few days after each major patch, where mission running is completely bonkers. Personally, I'd say KEEP the gains at old values (if mission was tweaked) but reduce its "old value" importance/weight factor instead of completely resetting it... and if it's a NEW mission, initialize it at MAXIMUM reward, to promote heavy duty completion of it as soon as possile, so it can be assigned the "right" value ASAP.
The lack of dynamic value assignment in the LP shop
This one is actually a very bad thing, THE worst possible probably for mission runners and the markets alike. You have made FIXED LP/ISK VALUE offers for all possible LP-shop rewards, which kind of clashes head-on with the mere idea of missions having variable LP rewards in the first place.
I hope I don't have to go on and on and explain why a +X charisma implant SHOULD NOT be worth (eventually, after enough time has passed) the same LP/ISK as a +X intelligence implant, or for that matter why NOT ALL +5% hardwirings hould have the same ISK/LP value (just think of +5% ship powergrid vs -5% powergrid use for ONE module type).
Bottom line, if you introduced the LP shop, have those values we're seing now be BASE values, and implement the same "dynamic cost" in ISK/LP (keep the items/tags fixed) algorithm for accepted offers, much like the "dynamic rewards" we are seing in missions.
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Or, alternatively, just give us fixed rewards for missions and be done with it. At least we'd know what's become of EVE then, for sure. _ New char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.06.21 17:38:00 -
[2]
Or let me give you an even clearer example of "useless" hardwirings for, say, passive shield tankers.
'Gnome' KUA2000 and 'Squire' PG8. Both almost 80k LP and almost 80 mil ISK. Both 5% hardwirings. But KUA2000 gives -5% grid use of shield extenders, while PG8 gives +5% to ship powergrid. Out of the two, unless ALL your grid is filled with ONLY shield extenders and nothing else, the PG8 is vastly superior.
And the same problem exists with a lot of "old" hardwirings and some of the new ones. Yet somehow, ALL possible ones "cost" the same in the LP shop. Obviously, without dynamic LP-shop offers, it's as good as making them (the old ones) practically useless. _ New char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Riley Craven
Caldari Copacetic Corporation
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Posted - 2007.06.21 17:41:00 -
[3]
I see what your saying,,, but others might have trouble understading... so I will try to paraphrase for everyone else.
1. LP rewards should not be static This causes their market price to drop as more and more people buy the same thing and try to sell it (more sellers with same demand = lower price)
You say this is bad and the LP store should change its costs based on how many times something is bought... much like the NPC market functions.
That way the game maintians a stable price for items instead of a price crash like we currently have with implants....
I agree and disagree with this. First this is bad for buyers... I would sure love to get a +4 implant set for 100mil.... Your way is good for sellers tho as it help maintains a higher price for their goods.
Personally I would rather the market be controlled by players (i.e keep the cost static like it is), because most players are stupid and will keep prices low on purpose cuse they care more about a sale than the actual price.
Its a hard call either way...
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.06.21 17:47:00 -
[4]
The price will be kept low only by the most stupid (or incompetent, or unlucky) players, seing how you can INSTANTLY cash in your LP via nexus chip LP-shop offers and NPC buyorders at 1000 ISK/LP.
I'm also saying "unlucky" because some corps don't offer nexus chips in their LP shop. At least everybody offers faction ammo, and that one isn't going to be very cheap, it's going to SURELY be more expensive as T2 ammo anyway (and that one ain't cheap, even with invention possible for it now), so if nothing else, you can still "cash out" on that, regardless of corp you run missions for. _ New char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Solariian Lytebringer
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Posted - 2007.06.21 18:25:00 -
[5]
I might be wrong, and can't find the link, but I think in one of the devblogs, or the live devblog transcripts somewehere they hint at the fact that those LP 'prices' might not be fixed. So you might be able to see an eventual market-like equilibrium for some of those examples you mentioned.
Whether it would happen automatically over time or as a result of 'tampering' by CCP remains to be seen, but I would give it some time either way before you really get your panties in a twist.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.06.21 18:30:00 -
[6]
Sorry, but after the rigs (salvage material) fiasco that's still going on even after countless warnings from players BEFORE Rev1.0 was on TQ, and the pathetic balance CCP "acheived by manual tweaking"... and other such excellent examples of "manual balance" on their behalf... I think there's never too soon to "get my panties in a twist". _ New char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Epidemis
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Posted - 2007.06.21 19:13:00 -
[7]
Ahh, that explains why the 1500 LP lvl 4 missions were so hard, and I who just got into a raven :P
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Hockston Axe
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.06.21 20:02:00 -
[8]
It's a floor for pricing. Loot drops will probably largely ignor the LP store value anyway, since people like to ignor the real value of their wares in this game.
If it's dynamic popular offers will become overpriced to the point where it's not worth cashing in your LP to get them, and will result in some nasty market swings, and make the market for LP shop items act like a pendulum as everyone cashes in and then nobody cashes in then everybody cashes in. Yes please let's make the markets as unstable as possible.
Not to mention you'd have to constantly check the LP store to see what this or that is worth today.
How about starbase charters. Those are sure to be popular, should those keep going up in price until nobody can afford their empire POS?
Just adjust to new values for old goods, what's so wrong and horrible about that. Just because something cost x before the patch, doesn't mean it should be the same forever.
You yourself have publicly speculated on changed items in this patch, and complained about others complaining that the prices have gone up post patch.
There is no difference between a stat change that affects it's price, or the LP Store changing the value of something.
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Hockston Axe
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.06.21 20:05:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Akita T The price will be kept low only by the most stupid (or incompetent, or unlucky) players, seing how you can INSTANTLY cash in your LP via nexus chip LP-shop offers and NPC buyorders at 1000 ISK/LP.
I'm also saying "unlucky" because some corps don't offer nexus chips in their LP shop. At least everybody offers faction ammo, and that one isn't going to be very cheap, it's going to SURELY be more expensive as T2 ammo anyway (and that one ain't cheap, even with invention possible for it now), so if nothing else, you can still "cash out" on that, regardless of corp you run missions for.
Amarr doesn't have any NPC buy orders for Nexus Chips, and I don't think that Gallente does either.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.06.21 20:11:00 -
[10]
I wasn't talking about the "pre-LP-shop" vs "post-LP-shop" values of items. I didn't even hint at that.
I was merely pointing out how moronic it is to set the same baseline price for things that are obviously worth a lot more/less compared to eachother. As two examples, I gave the charisma vs intelligence implants (the most obvious one in the "learning" category), and the KUA vs PG implant series (ship grid vs grid use for a module type). Out of each of the example pairs, one of them is worth a lot more as the other (the learning implant value is circumstantial, while the other pair's value difference is BEYOND OBVIOUS), yet both pairs share an identical price.
This has nothing to do with how much stuff used to cost, but with the fact things that DO have obviously different values are available for identical NPC prices via the LP-shop. _ New char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
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Hockston Axe
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.06.21 20:23:00 -
[11]
That's why I said it was a floor for prices. You can charge more than what the LP shop asks after all.
I do agree that it is a bit silly to have 5% medium, large and all turret cost exactly the same, but you can just charge baseline shop price for med, more for large and even more for all turret hardwires.
The LP shop price of the Large and All Turret hardwires is way below the old market price for them anyway, it's really only the medium ones that got a huge price boost from the shop.
Also 5% medium damage hardwires drop like candy from missions, so they will still be cheap, just not dirt cheap like they used to be.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.06.21 20:30:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Hockston Axe That's why I said it was a floor for prices.
You are severely underestimating player's resolve to cash in LPs at any cost... you won't be able to charge significantly more as the "baseline" price for anything if you plan on ever selling your goods, and the fact that not all corps HAVE a baseline price (through the nexus chips or other such means) will make matters only worse.
P.S. read the edit in the post above please. _ New char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Hockston Axe
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.06.21 20:44:00 -
[13]
Not everyone is a mission runner. Not every mission runner has enough or can easily grind enough LP to buy every single thing they'd ever want or need themselves from the LP shop, when they want it.
Implants and hardwires, afaik (I haven't run any missions post patch due to obvious ((read: horribly broken missions)) reasons) still drop as storyline rewards and loot drops.
I'm sure many of those loot drops will be sold (by very smart people) for less than it would cost to buy them from the LP store. I don't think it's such a big issue, not this soon after the patch for sure. It'll take a week or two for the market to settle down, for people to cash out their stockpiles of LP for that quick buck.
Then we can see what needs to be adjusted or not.
I don't think that any hardwire or implant that has a high drop rate as loot or mission reward will be purchased too often from the LP store at all, except maybe for personal use.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.06.21 22:47:00 -
[14]
Yes, but there will always be people who think "LPs are free". _ New char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Kua Immortal
RSP Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.06.21 22:55:00 -
[15]
I think it's abonimable that an implant named after myself should be so useless.
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Rumari Antar
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2007.06.21 23:35:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Rumari Antar on 21/06/2007 23:35:57
Originally by: Akita T
I was merely pointing out how moronic it is to set the same baseline price for things that are obviously worth a lot more/less compared to eachother.
As two examples, I gave the charisma vs intelligence implants (the most obvious one in the "learning" category), and the KUA vs PG implant series (ship grid vs grid use for a module type). Out of each of the example pairs, one of them is worth a lot more as the other (the learning implant value is circumstantial, while the other pair's value difference is BEYOND OBVIOUS), yet both pairs share an identical price.
As you put it, these are baseline prices. They should be determined by objective measures. In other words, all +4 implants have the same baseline price, which is higher than +3 implants. The fact that charisma implants are nearly worthless is a subjective matter; despite the fact that the vast majority of the EVE player base has the same subjective feeling about them.
It's easy to say that charisma implants provide less utility to most EVE players than the other implants. However, that isn't the case for all items available through LP offers. CCP should not try to set prices on these using subjective measures. They'd most likely get much of it wrong, and they'd be quite busy trying to keep up with changes to the game.
More importantly, the LP offers are not intended for resale. Resale is an option, and I would be disappointed if it wasn't. However, LP offers are supposed to be a reward for your service.
Why should someone's service be worth less, just because they started later than others, or didn't spend every minute in EVE running missions? Why would these offers be subjected to market forces? From a RP perspective, how would these offers be attractive, if they were at market prices?
"Hey, I have a great offer for you.....at the same price that we sell this on the market."
I understand what you're saying, and agree to some extent. However, all things considered, I think it's a bad idea.
Edit: Typos
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.06.21 23:38:00 -
[17]
That line of reasoning works for learning implants. How do you rationalize the other example then, the PG8 vs KUA2000 ? And bear in mind, it's just ONE example. There are more. _ New char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
SiJira
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Posted - 2007.06.21 23:51:00 -
[18]
/signed ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore
miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some |
Corporati Capitalis
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Posted - 2007.06.22 00:08:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Hockston Axe That's why I said it was a floor for prices.
You are severely underestimating player's resolve to cash in LPs at any cost...
And you are severely overestimating the total amount of LPs available in EVE at any time (after the initial craze has worn off).
Try harder next time.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.06.22 00:18:00 -
[20]
I'm not overestimating that at all. Think of it for a while... nexus chips have NPC buy orders at 8 mil for the 8k LP chip. That's 1000 ISK per LP. That's the bare bottom possible price for LPs at corps that have that offer. And worse, it's an ISK FAUCET.
And trust me, I'm not overestimating anything. Just look in the mission hubs, how many ships get killed there (NPC ships). Then count the LPs accordingly. Then compare vs Jita volumes traded, bottom/top prices.
The conclusions are beyond scarry. _ New char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
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insidion
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Posted - 2007.06.22 00:36:00 -
[21]
Dynamic mission rewards is a great idea, more credit than I ever would have given to CCP by default, but I agree that their implementation is a little strange. It's a little like the ever falling prices of the new books. I honestly don't get when they'll balance out at a fixed price from then on, but whatever. =)
As for LP, give the store a chance. They have said as much that they are really only concerned with getting the interface implemented, and they'll build off of it from there. Other than a few too many items (do we really need +1% implants? double you tee eff?), I like it a lot so far. The LP/ISK offers don't have me concerned at all, but the tag ones seem to be a bit extreme. There's also a little bit of an imbalance at the factional level, but again I think they'll work that out in the end too.
Lastly, I actually think that 1,000 ISK per LP is a good baseline value. As an example, if I wanted to market a +5 implant, it would cost me 65k LP and 65m ISK, for a resale of about 130m ISK, a massive improvement over the absurd 400-500m+ each they were before the patch. Now before you freak out and start citing how empire mission runners are evil carebears that get all the breaks, keep in mind two very important factors. Firstly, for me to get 65k LP would require good standings, which take some effort to get to, and using a L4 high quality agent would take me about 11 or 12 L4 combat missions. That's a few days of work right there. Secondly, it costs me 65m, probably most of what I made on those missions, to invest in said implant. Lastly, I would only be 'profiting' 65m overall anyways, a fair trade if you ask me.
Just my two cents, keep the change. ;)
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.06.22 00:59:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Hockston Axe Amarr doesn't have any NPC buy orders for Nexus Chips, and I don't think that Gallente does either.
Commodity / Miscellaneous / Amarr TIL-1 Nexus Chip for 8,000,000.00 ISK (last transaction was 2007.06.21 10:13: 35 units at Baviasi II - Moon 1 - Viziam Factory _ New char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Toria Nynys
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.06.22 02:56:00 -
[23]
So, who wants to start a pool re: how long it'll take until NPC buy order ISK faucet LP exchange is fixed?
Akita, I want to have your babies. I'm using this to cash out of my Mimnatar and Gallente LP while I still can.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.06.22 03:41:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Toria Nynys So, who wants to start a pool re: how long it'll take until NPC buy order ISK faucet LP exchange is fixed?
My bet would be on "never", it seems entirely intentional to allow this form of low-level ISK faucet, in order to prevent "LP value" from crashing below 1k ISK/point.
Originally by: Toria Nynys Akita, I want to have your babies. I'm using this to cash out of my Mimnatar and Gallente LP while I still can.
I know cloning technology and all that got better, but two females (well, two female avatars) having a baby ? _ New char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2007.06.22 05:39:00 -
[25]
Yes, as I already wrote in my post somewhere: make the LP store behave like a real market with the prices there changing accordingly to the demand.
More people trade in a certain item for the LP? Then it should rise in price. No one buys it? Then its price should drop.
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Keira Fordring
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2007.06.22 05:48:00 -
[26]
The problem with dynamic LP rewards is the potential for someone to never be able to 'catch up'.
Let's say I'm shooting for a 250k LP ship and I've got 225k LP. So I go out and grind the last 25k LP in missions. Once I reach the mark of 250k I go back to 'buy' my new ship. Problem is, enough people have bought them in the time it took me to farm the 25k LP and now the price is 300k LP.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.06.22 05:58:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Akita T on 22/06/2007 05:59:01
Just like a mission never has more than or less than a certain amount of LP as reward, I don't expect the LP shop to have prices that would fluctuate from zero to infinity, but within certain (fairly large) boundaries.
For instance, the +3 learning implants, the base value should be their current value of around 5k LP and 5 mil ISK, but according to how many of each of the +3 learning implants get selected, the cost in the shop should vary between 2k LP and 2 mil ISK at the lowest, or 13k LP and 13 mil ISK highest (just an example, actual lo/hi boundaries could be different, either 2.5-10 or 4-6, any other boundaries), while KEEPING the AVERAGE at the baseline value. This part is almost mandatory if any "sanity" is to be preserved.
And basically, same thing could be done with each group of offers, only influence others in the same category. A certain (much smaller, of course, maybe a plus-minus 10% or so) impact could be added cross-group, weighted for LP value (in other words, taking 1500 offers of lowest hardwiring would be about on par as influence with one faction battleship offer taken). This last part is purely optional. _ New char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Caia
Gallente The Durandal Organization The Cyrene Initiative
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Posted - 2007.06.22 05:58:00 -
[28]
Quote: Yes, as I already wrote in my post somewhere: make the LP store behave like a real market with the prices there changing accordingly to the demand.
More people trade in a certain item for the LP? Then it should rise in price. No one buys it? Then its price should drop.
Agreed. There's no reason to have a static price for these. All this will lead to is a static price on the market.
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Toria Nynys
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.06.22 06:11:00 -
[29]
Wish I had your faith in nexus chip NPC pricing establishing a floor. The nexus chips are available only to non-combat oriented corps. The ones most popular with ISK selling macro missioners or courier farmers. Now those guys can cash LP out in complete peace without the hassle of having to transport goods or deal with players.
I'm thinking that won't last forever.
Oh, and on topic: completely agreed with dynamic pricing. Something like a daily 1% drop in required tags/cash/LP if not a single person bought that item that day, 1% increase if there were sales. That way the garbage items would continue decreasing in price until they're worth getting for mineral melting and the desirable items would continue increasing until profit margins on them get slim.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.06.22 06:19:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Toria Nynys The nexus chips are available only to non-combat oriented corps.
And if I'm not completely mistaking, the navies too. Pharmers love the navies too _ New char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
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