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Alekzander Rayne	Posted - 2007.06.16 20:50:00 - [1] Hey all after taking a look at the upcoming patch notes I am having a hard time believeing what I am seeing and worst off, that no one is saying anything about it. Maybe its just me but I see a serious POS nerf here. First of all lets talk shields. This is for the upcoming patch notes so you can take a look see for yourself. I have a medium control tower so that is what I will use as reference here. Right now my POS has 25 million shields and 2 million armor hitpoints but after patch will be this (taken from patch notes):Medium structures have 50,000 shield, 750,000 armor and 2,500,000 structure (and 90% structure resistance given by the control tower) Why haven't I heard more about this? Granted that's still a lot of structure, but all of a sudden low sec POS'es can now be taken out not by a couple of dreads initially, but by BS's. Maybe I'm missing something here, but is there more info on what POS's defense capabilities will be post-patch? As my corp is currently under a wardec we are not entirely liking this change and would really like a bit more clarification on things. Help us out here. And last I have heard talk about hardeners and so forth, can someone give me a link to how shield hardeners work on stations if they do?
Stefan F	Posted - 2007.06.16 21:19:00 - [2] Thats for the guns that will be placed outside of POS'es shields.
General Xerxes Delta Omega Iota Inc. Breidablik	Posted - 2007.06.16 21:59:00 - [3] Structures refers to POS modules, not the towers themselves.
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.06.16 21:59:00 - [4] Edited by: Shameless Avenger on 16/06/2007 22:00:16 You are not alone, I wanted to post to but I'm waiting to see all the changes in action before forming an opinion. My bigest concern is the wardeccability of the POS. Now, we have concord protection on high sec, this may go away. If that's the case, is a serious nerf. Specially for the small corp that don't have the man power to repell a large fleet. People will say that it's not gonna happen because is to dificult. But these are the same guys that said no one would wardec everybody on empire and guess what, privateers happened. And you don't need to actually blow up the tower. A big pirate corp, with about 40 pilots or so, could seige a medium POS, owned by a 3 man corp. Knowing that the POS value is about a billion, I can't imagine how much they will ask for ransom. High Sec POS ransoming, mark my words, will be the next high sec ganking variety. I still have to take a look at the so called 'improved pos defenses'. Maybe something could be done to make the POS a less atractive target. But IMHO, unless you have the money to fuel a big tower, you won't be able to defend against a big wardeccing corp. I know people will also say that capitals can't be used in high sec. Well, my first tower was in a .3 system, it was taken down eventually by pirates and guess what, they didn't used capitals. A blob of ravens did the job just fine. And now with the turrets outside the forcefield.. hum.. I don't know. Bottom line, given all the troubles, NPC research slots are starting to look more attractive. Even with the eternal waiting queue. You just need to create enough characters and alts to research more jobs at once. The end result is the same, I've done the math. And no more hauling of fuel.
Elite Marksman	Posted - 2007.06.16 23:54:00 - [5] Shame, you obviously do not understand the mechanics. At the moment, CONCORD does not consider attacking a POS in high sec to be a criminal act, nor will CONCORD show up if your POS wtfpwns somebody. Usually, POSes in high-sec do not get attacked unless you **** somebody off, and iirc, you can use labs in .5+. For a research POS, you may want to look at .4 - no charters required, and no moon mining, so there isnt really any reason for someone to attack it. If you set up a large POS with a hardener or two, to cover the holes plus fill any space leftover after your labs/reactors with guns, you should be able to provide enough firepower to stop a casual attack on your POS. However, if someone really wants it down, they still can.
Marodi Julita Sublime Captial Investments	Posted - 2007.06.17 01:19:00 - [6] At the moment, you cant move cap ships into high sec. So put on a few good medium guns and you'll be fine.
Alekzander Rayne	Posted - 2007.06.17 04:40:00 - [7] So am I too understand that POS's will still have those massive shields? We'll see, but another concern is this, are these 'structures' to also include research labs, manufacturing arrays, corporate hangers, and so forth, or simply the offensive capabilities of the station. I see turrets listed, but does that also include missile and torpedo batteries? Lots of questions, but still questions remain as to how viable POS's will be post patch.
Verite Rendition Caldari AUS Corporation CORE.	Posted - 2007.06.17 05:40:00 - [8] Originally by: Alekzander Rayne So am I too understand that POS's will still have those massive shields? We'll see, but another concern is this, are these 'structures' to also include research labs, manufacturing arrays, corporate hangers, and so forth, or simply the offensive capabilities of the station. I see turrets listed, but does that also include missile and torpedo batteries? Lots of questions, but still questions remain as to how viable POS's will be post patch. Relax mate, you're overanalyzing. Here's what's changing: 1) Defensive structures are being moved outside of the POS bubble. This means if it shoots or does EW, it has to go outside. If it doesn't contribute to the defense of the starbase, then it gets to stay inside. 2) The HP values listed are for these external structures. 3) POSs will continue to remain viable. ---- AUS Corp Lead Megalomanic
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.06.17 05:45:00 - [9] Originally by: Elite Marksman Shame, you obviously do not understand the mechanics. At the moment, CONCORD does not consider attacking a POS in high sec to be a criminal act, nor will CONCORD show up if your POS wtfpwns somebody. How dare you saying I don't understand game mechanics! Take your alt posting noob to the nearest high sec tower and fire a few rounds if you want to see for yourself. You even get a nice windowed message asking if you really want to do it and warns you about getting wtfpwn by concord if you do. What you need? some fraps too? High Sec POS IS protected by concord at the moment. Multiple epic threads have discuss the subject extensibly. Originally by: Elite Marksman Usually, POSes in high-sec do not get attacked unless you **** somebody off, and iirc, you can use labs in .5+. For a research POS, you may want to look at .4 - no charters required, and no moon mining, so there isnt really any reason for someone to attack it. If you think people need a reason to attack you, then you obviously don't know this game. And don't lecture me about where I can anchor my POS, I'm the guy who made the FAQ. And people WILL attack the research POS. There is a lot of competition going on for invention, bpo research market, bpc market, etc. It WILL get attacked. Plus there's the issue I talked about POS ransom. Originally by: Elite Marksman If you set up a large POS with a hardener or two, to cover the holes plus fill any space leftover after your labs/reactors with guns, you should be able to provide enough firepower to stop a casual attack on your POS. However, if someone really wants it down, they still can. And I wasn't talking about any casual attacks. If the issue is a wardec waring corp attacking your POS, I doubt it can be considered a casual attack. It is a dedicated effort to take down your operations. As for the other poster: I already said that people will argue "capitals can't get in high sec so there's no danger". Wake up, capitals are not needed to take down a POS. And take into account that small corps don't usually have a big tower. Medium and Small towers are usually the norm for the small 3 man corp. -------------------------------------------------- BPO/BPC Blody icons should be different
Braaage Laborius Chapter	Posted - 2007.06.17 10:53:00 - [10] Looking at all the changes and in particular at constellation sovereignty I can honestly say that my opinion is that it will be bloody hard to take over a fully established constellation with full POS sovereignty. It's going to be interesting to see what the outcome is of the first attack where full sovereignty is established.


Pirlouit Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2007.06.17 13:05:00 - [11] Originally by: Braaage Looking at all the changes and in particular at constellation sovereignty I can honestly say that my opinion is that it will be bloody hard to take over a fully established constellation with full POS sovereignty. It's going to be interesting to see what the outcome is of the first attack where full sovereignty is established. Indeed, but it will also be a logistic nighmare to maintain full POS sovereignty... just think about the number of POS that need to be refueled every week.... forum rules \| email

Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.06.18 06:07:00 - [12] Well. CONCORD showing up if corp who has wardeclared another shoots at their POS is considered bug at this monent as I understand. There is way around it as if POS shoots at your first (if you have wardecced it) and you return fire after that then CONCORD does not intervene. All that happens as far as I understand it is that you no longer need to wait until tower shoots at you before you can shoot at it (in case of war declaration). That being said. It is true that small tower is just small speedbump on the road even for small gang of battleships. On the other hand there is going to be new possiblity for defenders to direct fire of POS guns. Assuming attackers won't hit when defenders sleep ofcource. And as that fire direction skill is not somehing you will train up in 3 days then it will bite hardest small corporations who might not have enough highly enough skilles characters to cover all timezones to repel attack. For medium tower. Well - it takes abit more effort to remove it without capital ships but also possible ofcource. Especially if attack comes as surprise and tower is still loaded up with labs. For large towers. You would need to **** somebody seriously off to make them go for it. Even if enemy attacks it then removing it with just battleships is long enough process to unachor and evacuate all your lab arrays even if tower is under fire and you are relatively unprepared. After that it's just loss of tower. Approx 400 mil. If you happen to have some guns achored you can easily inflict losses above that mark to attacking force. At the end of day by initial impression I have to agree with Shameless Avenger tho. Fixing of that bug bites hardest small and medium sized corps plus various alt corps out there due to hardness of getting standings high enough for 'main' corp. I myself are running alt corp for StarHunt but fortunately for me we managed to create alliance as 'shell' for us and our alt corp so my tower shall not be entirely defencless. But for small corps 1 bil is a lot of isk just for 'shell'.
Alekzander Rayne	Posted - 2007.06.18 07:45:00 - [13] Well at least some of my fears have been somewhat alleviated I am still concerned about some of the changes coming up. Id CCP ever going to put in a nice little readout of the station? I only got the shield amount by doing a 'show info' and there is no other readout. Having a readout would be nice, espcially if I decide to login while my station was under attack. Granted I have a medium, but as previously mentioned, I'm sure a small fleet of gankathrons or other gank fitted hyperions or domis could still manage to take out my stuff if they are supported. I wont share my stations defenses, and I'm sure no one will either, but I am still a bit concerned over the prospect of losing that much isk simply because I pvp and people cant take that. Other than that, I'm still confused about fitting shield hardeners onto POS's. Any linkys out there for me?
Queenann	Posted - 2007.06.18 08:33:00 - [14] What about Pos's walready set up with guns etc inside bubble, do we have to now unline and move outside bubble?
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.06.18 08:42:00 - [15] Originally by: Queenann What about Pos's walready set up with guns etc inside bubble, do we have to now unline and move outside bubble? They move outside shield atomatically when patch hits. In a nutshell CCP is going to run a script that will move your guns away from your tower direct line until it's outside minimum allowed distance from tower (ie. approx 2.5 to 5 km from shields). At least thats the impression I have got from dev responses in 'game develompent' forum section.
Sashi Bourgov Old Men Online	Posted - 2007.06.18 15:06:00 - [16] Edited by: Sashi Bourgov on 18/06/2007 15:07:05 Originally by: Braaage Indeed, but it will also be a logistic nighmare to maintain full POS sovereignty... just think about the number of POS that need to be refueled every week.... Good lord, so now it&s even more difficult to maintain sovereignity or get it without a huge industrial backbone, is it that what you&re saying? Actually I never was involved in any POS placings for sovereignity but it now sounds to me that only an alliance with a huge industrial backbone can maintain POS&s and therefore sovereignity. Would that be correct? regards Sashi
Marcus Tedric Gallente Tedric Enterprises	Posted - 2007.06.18 15:11:00 - [17] Originally by: Sashi Bourgov Edited by: Sashi Bourgov on 18/06/2007 15:07:05 Originally by: Braaage Indeed, but it will also be a logistic nighmare to maintain full POS sovereignty... just think about the number of POS that need to be refueled every week.... Good lord, so now it&s even more difficult to maintain sovereignity or get it without a huge industrial backbone, is it that what you&re saying? Actually I never was involved in any POS placings for sovereignity but it now sounds to me that only an alliance with a huge industrial backbone can maintain POS&s and therefore sovereignity. Would that be correct? regards Sashi Well, that's how the real world works and EVE is a simulation of a much larger situation! OTOH it's going to make holding vast tracts of space much harder for really big alliances - or, in other words, allow the smaller guys to do more or at least hassle the big guys.
pandymen Caldari Red Dwarf Mining Corporation space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2007.06.19 03:52:00 - [18] Originally by: Sashi Bourgov Edited by: Sashi Bourgov on 18/06/2007 15:07:05 Good lord, so now it&s even more difficult to maintain sovereignity or get it without a huge industrial backbone, is it that what you&re saying? Would that be correct? regards Sashi Well, in a nutshell no. The actual rules for maintaining sov of a system are basically unchanged. This whole constellation sov thing is new. Obviously it will require even more work to get this new type of sov up and running...but if you just want to maintain sov over a few systems, then it's the same as before.
Grendelsbane	Posted - 2007.06.19 05:35:00 - [19] When EVE comes back online after the downtime... if all the POS guns suddenly unanchor and shoot out into space at 500m/s, I'm going to laugh very, very hard.
Vasiliyan The Flying Swan	Posted - 2007.06.19 08:36:00 - [20] Originally by: Sashi Bourgov Good lord, so now it&s even more difficult to maintain sovereignity or get it without a huge industrial backbone, is it that what you&re saying? Actually I never was involved in any POS placings for sovereignity but it now sounds to me that only an alliance with a huge industrial backbone can maintain POS&s and therefore sovereignity. It requires a reasonable level of alliance dues to pay for all the fuel, and a small number of very dedicated people to actually fuel the poses. It'll get about 30% more difficult with the carrier hauling nerf, but people will generally wait to have a reason before trying for full constellation sov. What you spend in fuel spamming poses you save in dreads defending them.

Juha85 Beasts of Burden YouWhat	Posted - 2007.06.19 15:22:00 - [21] Originally by: Alekzander Rayne Hey all after taking a look at the upcoming patch notes I am having a hard time believeing what I am seeing and worst off, that no one is saying anything about it. Maybe its just me but I see a serious POS nerf here. First of all lets talk shields. This is for the upcoming patch notes so you can take a look see for yourself. I have a medium control tower so that is what I will use as reference here. Right now my POS has 25 million shields and 2 million armor hitpoints but after patch will be this (taken from patch notes):Medium structures have 50,000 shield, 750,000 armor and 2,500,000 structure (and 90% structure resistance given by the control tower) Why haven't I heard more about this? Granted that's still a lot of structure, but all of a sudden low sec POS'es can now be taken out not by a couple of dreads initially, but by BS's. Maybe I'm missing something here, but is there more info on what POS's defense capabilities will be post-patch? As my corp is currently under a wardec we are not entirely liking this change and would really like a bit more clarification on things. Help us out here. And last I have heard talk about hardeners and so forth, can someone give me a link to how shield hardeners work on stations if they do? Ofcourse people should be able to attack your pos if they war dec your corp. Taking down a large tower as someone already stated with just battleships will take a long time. Even a small or medium tower can be a pain if you have guns fitted at it. --------------------------------------- Boosters!
Jamus Gorrelius Macabre Votum INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.06.19 16:34:00 - [22] This new const sov is going to be a big impact, the sov works as normal, you lay a POS tick the button and boom you have sov, so no change there really. Its going to affect the alliances and open up 0.0 to alot more peeps, 3 stations and sov over half the constellation is going to take alot of ISK and man power. Just imaging how long it would take some one like BoB to control sov over all its regions or even a quarter of there regions. Roaming gangs taking pot shots at stations, meaning small corps can now impact the largest allaince, and trying to take a system is going to mean more that spamming as many POS's as possible. just my 2 cents
Alekzander Rayne	Posted - 2007.06.20 00:22:00 - [23] I wasnt saying that POSes should not be attackable. I was asking a quetion in regards station defenses. My fears have been alleviated as now I understand what is required and I am very happy about the response as well as the furthering of my understanding and knowledge. On to other things, for those interested in sovreignty, it does sound like a logistics nightmare. Having so many stations, even smalls will take a small army of individuals refeuling and maintaing the stations. Granted once sovreignty is established, especially so in a constellation, it may be rather hard to take that away from a group. So maybe its kind of like a double edged sword for those wanting sovreignty. Yes you can have it, but remember, it takes A LOT of work to maintain. Plus theres the entire issue of where the fuel is coming from. It will take some good planning to ensure that the trade routes are safe enough for haulers along the entire route, especially if there is a wardec.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.06.20 07:59:00 - [24] For people worried about the logistics. Nothing much changed in terms of keeping the same level of protection as today. Actually, it just got better. If you have a system with just 1 deathstar POS online, you are still just as safe as you were before the patch. If you put up a cynojammer once you hit Sov 3, you will be safer with no extra expenditure (well, tiny amount of more liquid ozone and heavy water perhaps to fuel the POS with an added structure. However, the new patch creates the option for people, at a considerable cost, to vastly increase the level of protection of their systems. That is the main change. ------------------------------------------------ Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:31:00 - [25] Apparently missile launchers still take CPU so they are as useless for POS defence as before patch. Well unless you are running suicide tower ofc. I could swear there were some promises around to make them not take cpu so they would be worth fitting before patch. So, as I understand it's also impossible to direct POS fire in empire so apparently empire POS'es are now more vunerable than before (can kills guns, dont have defence advantages of low sec pos'es apart unability to bring in dreadnaughts). Most effective empire POS defence chemes are now propably loads of ECM + pile of hardeners + few groups of guns to make em tank at least a little bit.
Aykido Gallente Lobster of Babel	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:13:00 - [26] Best way around this is to create an alt research corp, fill it with alts that train up science and nothing else. And have a few of these with good hauling skills, and on standby to cancel all jobs and dismantle the high sec POSes in case of a wardec. Lie dormant for a few weeks and then set up shop again. Keep all jobs at the POS relatively short. So not much is lost if dismantling has to occur. This way no defence is necessary. No one can damage shields much without a wardec and you have 24 hours to close shop if this happens. Not much risk, and since the corp is just alts, harm is not very great, and it is hard to identify corp members since the only come online to install jobs. If you cant lay dormant setting up several such shadow corps and rotating science alts between them should be easy. No corp will pay a wardec for long against a shadow corp that goes dormant. Only inside informant high up in the mother corp could identify the new shadow corp swiftly. Selling PERFECT PRINTS of 674 of the 730 seeded T1 BPOs: Ships, modules, rigs, drones, ammo, probes, components and capital mods, drones & ammo. (Cap Ships, Cap Components and Outposts 2007/2008)


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