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Bad Bobby
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
15
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Posted - 2012.01.04 16:25:00 -
[31] - Quote
Ghoest wrote:This is a market forum so I assumed wrongly that people would understand I was referring to loans as investment tools - not as a way to buy friends.
You cannot do justice to the subject if you arbitrarily ignore significant elements of it.
Ghoest wrote:Much like if I posted a Drake set up in the Mission forum I wouldnt expect players to treat it as a PVP build
Much like if you posted that it was perfectly safe to step off of a high cliff, because you were not addressing the subject of gravity.
Ghoest wrote:So yes, I once again must lower my already low expectations for the average EVE forum poster.
In my experience you get out pretty much what you put in.
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Hexxx
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
5
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Posted - 2012.01.04 16:47:00 -
[32] - Quote
Ghoest wrote:This is a market forum so I assumed wrongly that people would understand I was referring to loans as investment tools - not as a way to buy friends.
Much like if I posted a Drake set up in the Mission forum I wouldnt expect players to treat it as a PVP build
So yes, I once again must lower my already low expectations for the average EVE forum poster.
You haven't shown a scrap of depth concerning the topics you've whizzed by. Most people do actually care about substance here in the MD. You may lower your own expectations, but you'll find most people who lurk the MD will not - I suspect that's why you're getting so much flak.
What makes it all the more ironic is that you have a habit of calling anyone who disagrees with you a "noob".
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Avensys
United Highsec Front
The 99 Percent
82
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Posted - 2012.01.04 16:56:00 -
[33] - Quote
Ghoest wrote:This is a market forum so I assumed wrongly that people would understand I was referring to loans as investment tools - not as a way to buy friends.
I once had a roommate who thought that Robert Greene's The 48 Laws of Power was a "proven and effective" guide to living your life. 
Interpreting his everyday experiences to be consistent with that assumption was quite a challenge to him. |
OllieNorth
Recidivists Incorporated
124
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Posted - 2012.01.04 17:01:00 -
[34] - Quote
I agree that trust-based lending works in EVE, but only at the personal level. You can't make any type of a business out of trust based lending outside of your circle of acquaintances. This comes back to my MD philosophy, lending money is like flying in low-sec, don't lend what you can't afford to easily replace. |
Levija Saplina
Supremacy Inc.
Not Found.
54
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Posted - 2012.01.04 17:11:00 -
[35] - Quote
I once lost 25k euros on trust to a "friend" who then proceeded to leave the country.
So in my opinion, RL is much more risky than EVE.
Even with collaterals.
The only true method for loaning in EVE is collateral based, with an undervalue of the collateral of around 25% - 40%. |
flakeys
Arkham Innovations
179
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Posted - 2012.01.04 19:22:00 -
[36] - Quote
Levija Saplina wrote:I once lost 25k euros on trust to a "friend" who then proceeded to leave the country.
So in my opinion, RL is much more risky than EVE.
Even with collaterals.
The only true method for loaning in EVE is collateral based, with an undervalue of the collateral of around 25% - 40%.
So you are also placing approx 36 B + of your assets/bpo's in the hands of the 3rd party or single investor who would secure your new loan offer? Would be good to add that part in on your discussion thread. |
Levija Saplina
Supremacy Inc.
Not Found.
54
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Posted - 2012.01.04 19:30:00 -
[37] - Quote
flakeys wrote:Levija Saplina wrote:I once lost 25k euros on trust to a "friend" who then proceeded to leave the country.
So in my opinion, RL is much more risky than EVE.
Even with collaterals.
The only true method for loaning in EVE is collateral based, with an undervalue of the collateral of around 25% - 40%. So you are also placing approx 36 B + of your isk/assets/bpo's in the hands of the 3rd party or single investor who would secure your new loan offer? Would be good to add that part in on your discussion thread.
No, the investor will be holding onto the BPO and taking a role of CEO in my production corporation with an alt, I will be paying for the plex to sub his alt account and since he is one of my regular client for SCs, I don't feel threatened by him knowing the location of my production facilities.
But in most regular cases, what I am saying would apply. |
Levija Saplina
Supremacy Inc.
Not Found.
54
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Posted - 2012.01.04 19:36:00 -
[38] - Quote
Oh wait, I think you got my words wrong.
Let's assume I was going the collateral way.
For a loan of 120 bil, I would be supplying the investors with around 170 bil in collateral.
By that I mean that if you take a Charon BPO, in the event of bond failure, the investors will not want to wait for their money for a long time. So to firesale the collateral, but in order to cover the 120 bil, you'd most likely have to undervalue the collateral which would mean that you'd need more collateral than the actual 120 bil value.
I think that Grendell does it like this too. |
Sverige Pahis
Thunderwaffe
Goonswarm Federation
575
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Posted - 2012.01.04 20:15:00 -
[39] - Quote
If it's all the same OP it's probably best if we take advice from someone who knows the difference between there, their and they're. You know, someone with a 3rd grade education or higher.
From what I've seen in EVE there are one of two conditions that have to be met for a legitimate loan to have any chance of filling:
1a.) Full (or more likely 110-120% of market value) collateral
-and (sometimes)-
b.) A "trusted" third party (subjective at best and not without risk) for example Chribba, Darknesss or greatly trusted newcomer CSM Chairman The Mittani.
Requiring a third party might not be necessary if the collateral is easily traded via the contract system but in some situations this might not be possible or desirable.
-OR-
2.) Knowing the borrower in real life, doesn't protect you if your buddy loses the ability to repay you due to extenuating circumstances though (real life issues, can't/won't buy GTC if business fails, etc). |
Kagan Storm
Silver Snake Enterprise
Against ALL Authorities
42
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Posted - 2012.01.05 00:33:00 -
[40] - Quote
You had loan contracts.
You didnt like them.
You went with this forum bond ipo my api is better then your api thing.
You did it to yourself.
Loan contracts were actually good.
So no crying.
This part of the forum is 10 years of looooooooooong hard work inventing scams, and making the area fruitful to steal other peoples money.
File a petition. Dont make a forum post 
My ego is the the size of my carriers jump range. |
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Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
60
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Posted - 2012.01.05 03:49:00 -
[41] - Quote
Ghoest wrote:This is a market forum so I assumed wrongly that people would understand I was referring to loans as investment tools - not as a way to buy friends.
Much like if I posted a Drake set up in the Mission forum I wouldnt expect players to treat it as a PVP build
So yes, I once again must lower my already low expectations for the average EVE forum poster.
We'll you missed my nuanced points about Credit profile being paramount to all loans in the Real World including most fully colateralized loans. (even with collateral it is a rare lender than makes a collatized loan indifferent to the posiblity of default, and that possiblity is largely trust based, trust being largely derived from past behaviour of an entity)
long and short
Divide between People and Characters.
- fractals of time of lifespan of active play compared to lifespan of human behaviour necessary to get a firmer fix on trust
- disposablity and unaccountabilty of both chracters and players.. characters can be transferred, have no extended families for whom bad behaviour would taint (if you don't pay your rent in a small commuinty your mother and brothers are tainted somewhat by you being a deadbeat)
---- players are "disposable in that they can always go play another game and ditch their reputation here, even if you knew their various alts and that they wouldn't want to sell their characters.
Legal.. any legal system would take nearly the same time and care it does in real life yet be arbitrating assetts often of such small amounts that they'd never even come close to paying just the filing fee's
--- even if you got around the trust diminishing aspects of disposablity, the idea of a wel run legal system to arbitrate the complications of what constitues a default sufficient to claim collateral is unlikely to be taken on with sufficient vigor out of a "fun" motivation in a rp environment. |
Ghoest
236
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Posted - 2012.01.05 05:18:00 -
[42] - Quote
Diomedes Calypso wrote:
long and short
Divide between People and Characters.
- fractals of time of lifespan of active play compared to lifespan of human behaviour necessary to get a firmer fix on trust
- disposablity and unaccountabilty of both chracters and players.. characters can be transferred, have no extended families for whom bad behaviour would taint (if you don't pay your rent in a small commuinty your mother and brothers are tainted somewhat by you being a deadbeat)
---- players are "disposable in that they can always go play another game and ditch their reputation here, even if you knew their various alts and that they wouldn't want to sell their characters.
Legal.. any legal system would take nearly the same time and care it does in real life yet be arbitrating assetts often of such small amounts that they'd never even come close to paying just the filing fee's
--- even if you got around the trust diminishing aspects of disposablity, the idea of a wel run legal system to arbitrate the complications of what constitues a default sufficient to claim collateral is unlikely to be taken on with sufficient vigor out of a "fun" motivation in a rp environment.
That was just the long - long way to agree with me.
Wherever You Went - Here You Are |
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