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Steve Holt
coracao ardente Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.06.01 10:45:00 -
[1]
a friend of mine got skilled up for command ships but got podded and forgot to update clone. so he lost BC 5. but he can still fly his EOS and astarte without it. exsploit or not?
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Mallikanth
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Posted - 2007.06.01 10:47:00 -
[2]
Not. It's his fault he didn't have an up to date clone.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2007.06.01 10:49:00 -
[3]
you miss the point
He lost BC 5 but can still fly an EOS
I assume you need bc 5 to train command ships.
I would say no to the exploit
SKUNK
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General Apocalypse
Amarr Dark-Rising Fallen Souls
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Posted - 2007.06.01 10:51:00 -
[4]
Thank You SkyFlyer |
Sheriff Jones
Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.06.01 10:52:00 -
[5]
Hmm.
Well, it's not an exploit per say, but it's most definetly a bug.
Should report it.
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.06.01 10:52:00 -
[6]
Edited by: ry ry on 01/06/2007 10:51:48
Originally by: Le Skunk you miss the point
He lost BC 5 but can still fly an EOS
I assume you need bc 5 to train command ships.
I would say no to the exploit
SKUNK
that seems to happen fairly often. possibly something to do with the skill being a pre req for training a requisite skill, rather than actually flying the ship?
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Cheval Blanc
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Posted - 2007.06.01 10:54:00 -
[7]
No exploit, because death removes the highest lvl 5 skill. And you're in 0.0?
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Lou Margoulin
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Posted - 2007.06.01 11:03:00 -
[8]
yep actually it's the command ship skill that matter to fly a CS not the bc at lvl5 skill.
not a bug nor an exploit.
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.06.01 11:07:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Lou Margoulin yep actually it's the command ship skill that matter to fly a CS not the bc at lvl5 skill.
not a bug nor an exploit.
But the requirements for a command ship still include BC-V. If he lost it, the requirements should have a big red marker on requirements on the BC skill.
So basicly all requirements arn't met.
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Trak Cranker
Feral Tendency Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.01 11:22:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
But the requirements for a command ship still include BC-V. If he lost it, the requirements should have a big red marker on requirements on the BC skill.
So basicly all requirements arn't met.
The requirements are met. The BC skills is just a prereq for starting of training commandships - and he has done that.
There has been plenty of situations like these, when they have upped skill reqs in the past. People having trained the skill with the now insufficient level on one of the prereqs are have never been affected.
Ofc you can still debate if this should be so. But as far as the game goes, he meets the requirement for the ship. He has trained the command ship skill.
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Veritas Falx
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Posted - 2007.06.01 11:29:00 -
[11]
I say no because he lost those skillpoints, not like he moved them to another skill. Also he lost bonus's because tech II ships get a huge boost from the tech I skill, part of the reason they are much better because that skill is almost always at 5.
But this bug has been around of a while. With the new skills given to players at the begining of rev at creation some skills were give w/o their prereqs. Pretty sure though that you can't train skills to a higher level if you lost the prereq.
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.06.01 11:32:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Trak Cranker The requirements are met. The BC skills is just a prereq for starting of training commandships - and he has done that.
There has been plenty of situations like these, when they have upped skill reqs in the past. People having trained the skill with the now insufficient level on one of the prereqs are have never been affected.
Ofc you can still debate if this should be so. But as far as the game goes, he meets the requirement for the ship. He has trained the command ship skill.
Yes the flight requirements are met in the sense that he met the requirements for learning the skill of command ships, but i always thought that the BC skill was also needed for the flight of the ship.
Since it's in the requirements ssection of the ship info too, not just the skill info.
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Captain Thunk
Omniscient Order
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Posted - 2007.06.01 11:37:00 -
[13]
Flying an Eos is like riding a bike, once you've learnt how to do it you never forget it.
Captain Thunk
See this hook? variable speed and five alternate attatchments baby. |
Dyfed
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.06.01 11:39:00 -
[14]
http://www.eve-online.com/itemdatabase/EN/ships/commandships/caldari/22470.asp
The pre reqs are (just for reference)
Command Ship I Racial Cruiser V Heavy assault Ships IV
Not BC V
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LancerSix
Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.06.01 11:48:00 -
[15]
Its a bug, not an exploit. Reason I say so is this, back when I was (more of) a wee little nubbin, I was flying around in my Crow and got podded. I lost Caldari Frigs 5 and couldn't get into a new Crow. I'm assuming theres just a bug with Command Ships where it doesn't check for ALL of the prerequisites when you get in. Submit a bug report, but I highly doubt it would be classed as an exploit by a sensible GM.
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.06.01 11:51:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Dyfed http://www.eve-online.com/itemdatabase/EN/ships/commandships/caldari/22470.asp
The pre reqs are (just for reference)
Command Ship I Racial Cruiser V Heavy assault Ships IV
Not BC V
It's right there though, secondary skills required, BC-V.
This is what i mean.
And as stated above, these losses effect other ships, so why not the command ship one?
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Wild Rho
Amarr Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2007.06.01 11:51:00 -
[17]
Would be a bug rather than an exploit. It doesn't give him any sort of unfair advantage (just the opposite really since he's now lost a small bonus from the bc skill) and it's not something he could control or even influence.
Best to bug report it though.
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Estel Arador
Minmatar AFK
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Posted - 2007.06.01 11:57:00 -
[18]
To fly/use something, you only need the primary, secondary and tertiary skills. The prereqs for training those skills are listed for convenience. You will need those skills to train the required skills, but you don't need those skills to fly/use the item.
If all is well, your friend won't be able to train up his Command Ships skill further until he regains BC V, but he can continue to use/benefit from levels in Command Ships he already has. =AFK=
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John Hades
BlackStone Heavy Industries Empire Research
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Posted - 2007.06.01 11:59:00 -
[19]
Originally by: LancerSix Its a bug, not an exploit. Reason I say so is this, back when I was (more of) a wee little nubbin, I was flying around in my Crow and got podded. I lost Caldari Frigs 5 and couldn't get into a new Crow. I'm assuming theres just a bug with Command Ships where it doesn't check for ALL of the prerequisites when you get in. Submit a bug report, but I highly doubt it would be classed as an exploit by a sensible GM.
Agree with this. A while back i was looking round 0.0 in a cheap frig, and rather than make the 20+ jumps back to Castle Carebear i thought i'd self destruct my pod and get there quick. Doing so lost me Caldari Industrial V (podded day before and forgot to update clone). Then found out i could no longer fly my shiny Bustard... and needing to jump in it was my reason for wanting to get back quick.
I would say your issue is a bug. Unless it has something to do with BC V being a "secondary" requirement or something? ie. You need it to train up for other skills necessary to fly the boat, but not to fly it? In my example above, Caldari Industrial V is a primary requirement. And in the above Crow example, Cald Frig V is also a primary?
-------------------------------- "The dumber that people think you are... the more surprised they're going to be when you kill them" |
Trak Cranker
Feral Tendency Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.01 12:06:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Trak Cranker on 01/06/2007 12:12:44
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
And as stated above, these losses effect other ships, so why not the command ship one?
I would like to see examples of that. Because I am as close to 100% sure that it is wrong, as I can possibly be.
And no, it does not list the prereqs as a prereq for the ship. But as prereqs for the skill - an information about what you will need to train that skill.
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.06.01 12:35:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Trak Cranker I would like to see examples of that. Because I am as close to 100% sure that it is wrong, as I can possibly be.
And no, it does not list the prereqs as a prereq for the ship. But as prereqs for the skill - an information about what you will need to train that skill.
Well if it isn't the case with other ships, it should be really.
Requisitions for a skill are listed on the skill itself. Requisitions for a ship are listed on the ship info.
This is why, i think it is infact a bug. But only a dev can tell really.
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Mikal Drey
Purgatorial Janitors Inc.
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Posted - 2007.06.01 12:48:00 -
[22]
hey hey
Id certainly say bug or at least a weird side effect of loosing skills.
Pre req's are there beacuse they are REQUIRED.
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Trak Cranker
Feral Tendency Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.01 13:05:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Mikal Drey Pre req's are there beacuse they are REQUIRED.
Says who?
That is at most an opinion. And one that is in contradiction with precedence and the current state of things. CCP have on occasion changed the required level on some prereq skills. And they have never required for you to update the prereq skill, if you had already trained the skill for which it was prereq. Once the skill is in your head, the prereqs does not matter anymore.
Everything supports that the prereqs for the primary, secondary and tertiary skills are listed as information only - for the needed skills.
And it makes good sense. At least I hope I am not fired, once my boss finds out I have forgotten my polynomial math.
You can argue that it should not be like that - but stating things as fact, when everything points to it not being so...
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Susan Acid
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.06.01 13:21:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
Originally by: Trak Cranker I would like to see examples of that. Because I am as close to 100% sure that it is wrong, as I can possibly be.
And no, it does not list the prereqs as a prereq for the ship. But as prereqs for the skill - an information about what you will need to train that skill.
Well if it isn't the case with other ships, it should be really.
Requisitions for a skill are listed on the skill itself. Requisitions for a ship are listed on the ship info.
This is why, i think it is infact a bug. But only a dev can tell really.
Check the skill book reqs for HACs.You can train for it before you have Cruiser V. Strange.
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.06.01 13:28:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 01/06/2007 13:28:20
Originally by: Susan Acid
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
Originally by: Trak Cranker I would like to see examples of that. Because I am as close to 100% sure that it is wrong, as I can possibly be.
And no, it does not list the prereqs as a prereq for the ship. But as prereqs for the skill - an information about what you will need to train that skill.
Well if it isn't the case with other ships, it should be really.
Requisitions for a skill are listed on the skill itself. Requisitions for a ship are listed on the ship info.
This is why, i think it is infact a bug. But only a dev can tell really.
Check the skill book reqs for HACs.You can train for it before you have Cruiser V. Strange.
That is strange. Really...and i've seen strange things everday i wake up and go to the bathroom
So in that case, you can train for a HAC(in other words fly it) before you can fly it for real. But in other cases, you can't train(and fly) something before you got everything trained for it
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RaTTuS
BIG Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.06.01 13:40:00 -
[26]
Any bonus you get from BC skills means that you only get BC 4 instead of BC 5. -- BIG Lottery, BIG Deal, InEve & Blog
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Trak Cranker
Feral Tendency Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.01 14:20:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Trak Cranker on 01/06/2007 14:26:50
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
That is strange. Really...and i've seen strange things everday i wake up and go to the bathroom
So in that case, you can train for a HAC(in other words fly it) before you can fly it for real. But in other cases, you can't train(and fly) something before you got everything trained for it
Its a common structure in the skill requirements that the primary, secondary and tertiary skills are not interdependant for the T2 ships and "midlevel"(battle cruisers, destroyers, interdictors, interceptors) classes that does not have a race specific skill. If you train HAC up, you can potentially fly HACs for all races - if you have the race specific cruiser skills. If they want it like that, they cant have Gallente Cruiser V, Minmatar Cruiser V and Caldari Cruiser V all be prereqs for training HAC, unless they build in some "One of these" option into the prereq system. And even then the probably want to avoid that, if they want to apply the HAC req to a new ship type later down the line where they dont want Cruiser V to be a req, battlecruisers being a potential example(Not saying it could or should happen). Same can be said for the skill req setup on the interdictors. So for the specific ship they specify the specific racial Cruiser skill as a separate skill needed.
Some of the primary, secondary, tertiary constructions are bit funny though. Dreadnoughts for one, where Capital ship I is required both as a primary skill, but also to train the racial dreadnought skill it self. And Jump drive operation could also be specified as a prereq for Race Dreadnought, for all I can see - and not be a tertiary skill.
But for a lot of the ships it makes good sense.
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Mikal Drey
Purgatorial Janitors Inc.
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Posted - 2007.06.01 14:29:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Trak Cranker
Originally by: Mikal Drey Pre req's are there beacuse they are REQUIRED.
Says who?
That is at most an opinion. And one that is in contradiction with precedence and the current state of things. CCP have on occasion changed the required level on some prereq skills. And they have never required for you to update the prereq skill, if you had already trained the skill for which it was prereq. Once the skill is in your head, the prereqs does not matter anymore.
Everything supports that the prereqs for the primary, secondary and tertiary skills are listed as information only - for the needed skills.
And it makes good sense. At least I hope I am not fired, once my boss finds out I have forgotten my polynomial math.
You can argue that it should not be like that - but stating things as fact, when everything points to it not being so...
Required: Adjective 1. Needed : Necessary or appropriate 2. Compulsory : Insisted upon or imposed as a condition
Command Ships
under PRE REQUIRED SKILLS you will see Battlecruiser V
Quote: CCP have on occasion changed the required level on some prereq skills. And they have never required for you to update the prereq skill, if you had already trained the skill for which it was prereq.
yes CCP have often changed the pre reqs for various skills but the effect on players havce been negligible as they ofter DOWNgrade skill pre reqs. where CCP have UPgrades a skill and a player no longer has the prereqs required I have no idea because its never affected me once with any of the skill changes and any coments regarding those changes and what CCP stance on it would be conjecture.
its a total FACT that everything has a list or REQUIRED skills and afaik you cannot use a module/ship without having EVERY SKILL ticked.
Quote: Once the skill is in your head, the prereqs does not matter anymore
have you ever though that this is bacause you cannot untrain skills or transfer sp to another skill. The Pre Reqs dont matter bacause you dont often lose the skill. Previously when you were podded all your SP down to the clone last updated was lost. this was considered way to harsh even for eve so now you only loose specific SP (not sure how its chosen) the new SISI character sheet show skil history so possibly this "bug/feature" may be addressed.
now if a player is running around in a ship without having the required skills can others do the same ? or what would happen if i pod myself over and over again to remove quite a few pre reqs and still have the ability to fly/use stuff that i no longer have the knowledge to do ?
even if i use a RL example : if i had an accident and got selective amnesia and i was no longer able to remember how to pilot a plane do you honestly think they would let me take that 747 accross the atlantic with those customers ? If i even got it off the runway.
i know me english isnt often up to spec but i come from london so what do you expect. But i totally know that the word required means i must have it.
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Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.06.01 14:36:00 -
[29]
It's not an exploit or a bug
the prerequ's for the necessary skills are not required to use the item after they have been aquired, it was confirmed before I even started playing
Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink.
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Estel Arador
Minmatar AFK
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Posted - 2007.06.01 14:39:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Mikal Drey its a total FACT that everything has a list or REQUIRED skills and afaik you cannot use a module/ship without having EVERY SKILL ticked.
It's not a fact, it's a (false) assumption. You need only the top skills under each of the 'primary', 'secondary', and 'tertiary' lists to use something. All other skills are prerequisites to train the top skills in the respective lists. =AFK=
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