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melaeric
Aesir Technologies
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Posted - 2007.05.27 21:51:00 -
[1]
I'm a little confused here and looking for a justifiable reason why:
.....if a target ship's lock is disengaged through the use of a ECM jammer, and an ECM burst is used, why doesn't it disengage the lock of the drones.
It seems to me that a ECM Burst II fitted on a scorp should be more then enuf to break the lock of drones orbiting at close range, and yet as many times as I have tried it does not effect the drones at all.
I see that drones have uber sensor strengths dwarfing that of battleships(scratch that//) of 4 battleships, but even that is not enuf to ward off an ECM Burst II fitted on a scorp, every single time.
The way I think it should work, but doesn't. Ogre II's have a 125m scan resolution, so their target should break and take as long as a 125m scan res ship(battleship) should to reaquire a target.
I'm not asking for anymore nerfs, I personally hate nerfs. I'm just looking for an explanation why ECM on a ECM designed ship(the way CCP wants it) does not work against drones.
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Red Harvest
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Posted - 2007.05.27 22:02:00 -
[2]
Actually a ecm burst breaks the lock of drones BUT they can relock instantly and continue their attack.
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Xiliath
JUDGE DREAD Inc. Forces of Freedom
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Posted - 2007.05.27 22:14:00 -
[3]
I've found the same thing evident, I think they should be jammed for the duration of the cycle time of the module the way ecm works. |
Marquis Dean
Demise and Vestige 9th Fleet
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Posted - 2007.05.27 22:22:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Xiliath I've found the same thing evident, I think they should be jammed for the duration of the cycle time of the module the way ecm works.
But that isn't how ECM Bursts work...
Also, can you imagine what drones would do if they get jammed? They have enough trouble with simple commands like 'go to A and shoot it'. How about 'go to A and shoot it unless you get jammed in which case just orbit it for a while until the jam cycle ends (with could be 10 minutes as far as the drones know) and then resume shooting A again if A is still there if not return to the ship'.
They wouldn't be able to cope.
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Originally by: CCP Arkanon I think this thread also illustrates perfectly that we neither censor nor do we try to silence our customers.
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Red Harvest
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Posted - 2007.05.27 22:30:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Marquis Dean 'go to A and shoot it'
Hehe and even that is nothing you can really depend on 100%.
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melaeric
Aesir Technologies
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Posted - 2007.05.27 22:41:00 -
[6]
admittedly enuf, drones have there issues..
They seem effective enuf to me though, Ogre II's on the right ship aren't something I would look past becasue I thought they might confuse themselves and not attck me.
IMO: drones have enuf magical abilties, not having to adhere to game targetting mechanics shouldn't be one of them.
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Zirth
Caldari Dragonian Freelancers CORE.
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Posted - 2007.05.27 23:09:00 -
[7]
Drones pretty much lock instantly. Now an ECM burst only drops the lock, it does not disengage the sensors for 20seconds like a normal jamming module would.
If it did it'd be way too good. Even if it's only drones, it would render drones somewhat useless, especially the smaller ones. You have more chance of jamming a drone once per minute than not jamming a drone, such a cheap and easy to use module that can decrease drone dps by over 30% is too harsh imo. The burst is fine as it is, few realize it's potential though and want a boost, an alligned ship with about a 55% chance of jamming a battleship per minute, let alone smaller ships means you can simply warp away and escape. Not always, but it's very much overlooked as I've had alot of succes with em.
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melaeric
Aesir Technologies
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Posted - 2007.05.27 23:54:00 -
[8]
point is:
Drones shouldn't insta-lock, Ogre II scan res is 125m...
That means in a Rook and using the burst should buy you at least 7 or 8 seconds, but it doesn't.
other things I noticed:
Apparently a 25m3 ogre II has a cargo capacity of 1200m3, thus explaining that its limitless ammo is being stored in subspace somewhere....ok I'm fine with that
Also it has 1 cap and a 2500sec recharge time, so its firing battelship sized weapons that use no cap. I'm fine with that too
also it uses a MWD that has no sig penalty, once again I can live with it
but how about it at least follows one the eve universe rules and doesn't insta-lock
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Ryysa
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.05.27 23:57:00 -
[9]
I agree with the OP.
However, I am not 100% sure, do the drones stop attacking when they get ecm bursted?
Let's say the owner of the drones also loses lock and then the drones get ECM bursted.
Do they just instarelock and reattack or do they just sit there?
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Audri Fisher
Caldari VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.05.28 01:13:00 -
[10]
I have never managed to jam a drone with reg jammers...
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Ryysa
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.05.28 01:17:00 -
[11]
no, but ecm burst has some sort of effect on drones, I'm quite sure.
At least it had a year ago or so when I last tested an ECM burst .
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Barbarellas Daughter
Lonely Barbarella
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Posted - 2007.05.28 04:25:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Audri Fisher I have never managed to jam a drone with reg jammers...
same here. wondering if its a bug or intended.
also ship bonuses dont work on ECM burst, so no point to install one on a rook or BB :(
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Ryysa
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.05.28 09:54:00 -
[13]
They only work on a scorp. This is a pretty bad bug imo.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.28 11:00:00 -
[14]
Originally by: melaeric also it uses a MWD that has no sig penalty, once again I can live with it
I am pretty sure that they get a sig penality when they MWD.
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Mystic Pete
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Posted - 2007.05.28 11:09:00 -
[15]
As I imagine it should work. You ECM burst some drones swarming you and they loose lock (if your successful) it should then take 2 or 3 seconds to relock. A directed ECM burst jams for approx 20 seconds but a burst should still buy you a second or two for them to relock. So we're not asking for the drones to behave differently just to have to spend the second or two to reaquire lock.
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Morreia
The Celestial Element
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Posted - 2007.05.28 11:19:00 -
[16]
I think they should just stop shooting until told to engage target again by owner. until that time just carry on orbiting.
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Marquis Dean
Demise and Vestige 9th Fleet
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Posted - 2007.05.28 11:56:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Morreia I think they should just stop shooting until told to engage target again by owner. until that time just carry on orbiting.
That would require an extremely vigilant pilot to notice stuff like that. If my drones are orbiting something that isn't me, I can be 100% sure they are trying to kill it (excusing bugs and such). I don't have time in a fight to zoom in and check if they are still fighting. I don't think CCP would instigate a change like that either.
Even if they have a change of state, e.g: from 'Fighting' to 'Incapacitated', not everyone plays with their drone bay window open. Between the overview, dronebay and gang interface, it gets pretty busy over there.
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Originally by: Galack Fyar Burn in a hole
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melaeric
Aesir Technologies
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Posted - 2007.05.28 16:35:00 -
[18]
So basically drones are immune to all game effects/mechanics, except they do and take damage.
Take damage as in take exremely nerfed damage because of their sig radius and and abiltiy to move very fast without any penalties.
so not only is ECM a heavily nerfed mod and a chance based system, but also it is ineffective against drone ships in pvp. hmm well what are the odds you will run up against a drone ship in pvp anyways, ecm is better for missions
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Lithalnas
Amarr Hadean Drive Yards Archaean Cooperative
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Posted - 2007.05.28 17:51:00 -
[19]
actually the ECM burst and drones are a viable setup, use a domi with a sucky lock time and an ECM burst, set out your drones and motor up to the other guy and burst, the drones should aggro and look ma im PVPing without locking. ------------- Hadean Drive Yards The EvE inflation, 80 Macro miners, 1.5b isk/day |
Alaron Giancol
Amarr Resurrection R i s e
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Posted - 2007.05.28 20:50:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Alaron Giancol on 28/05/2007 20:50:51
Originally by: melaeric point is:
Drones shouldn't insta-lock, Ogre II scan res is 125m...
you are confusing scan res and sig res
the ogre II's sig res is 125m, it doesn't have a scan res. (incidentally, scan res is measured in 'mm', not 'm', which is what sig res uses)
and if their scan res was in fact 125m, it would be 125000mm using the normal scale, which would be instant anyways We don't get information anymore, we get spin.
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Ryysa
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.05.28 20:56:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Marquis Dean
Originally by: Morreia I think they should just stop shooting until told to engage target again by owner. until that time just carry on orbiting.
That would require an extremely vigilant pilot to notice stuff like that. If my drones are orbiting something that isn't me, I can be 100% sure they are trying to kill it (excusing bugs and such). I don't have time in a fight to zoom in and check if they are still fighting. I don't think CCP would instigate a change like that either.
Even if they have a change of state, e.g: from 'Fighting' to 'Incapacitated', not everyone plays with their drone bay window open. Between the overview, dronebay and gang interface, it gets pretty busy over there.
Agree 100%. The solution to this is not to make drones more anal than they already are, but to give them a proper signature resolution, so they get a lock time, that way, if bursted, they'd have to re-lock their target and you would get a small benefit for a certain amount of time.
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Zirth
Caldari Dragonian Freelancers CORE.
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Posted - 2007.05.28 21:01:00 -
[22]
ECM bursts are still extremely useful modules, just because you cannot see the use, or don't know how to use it, doesn't mean it needs a change.
Seriously, this thing has a strength of 7.2. Any frigate or cruiser you will extremely likely jam in the first cycle. And even ships with a strength of 22, like a battleship or battlecruiser will on average be jammed more than once per minute. That's amazing, you can simply allign, jam and warp-away, have a huge chance of jamming and forcing them to go trough a relock timer.
Just because it doesn't work on drones doesn't mean it's crap. And just because jamming drones isn't really viable, doesn't mean drones are overpowered either. The extremely low hitpoints, low orbit velocities, low range, with no resists or repairing you would find on a ship that had hardeners and a shield booster, or armor repairer, they're also extremely fragile. That also doesn't mean drones are crap, apart from the user-friendlyness.
The 125m some of you talked about is the resolution of the drones gun by the way.
Drones are not ships. And they weren't ment to be.
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Ryysa
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.05.28 21:20:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Zirth Seriously, this thing has a strength of 7.2. Any frigate or cruiser you will extremely likely jam in the first cycle. And even ships with a strength of 22, like a battleship or battlecruiser will on average be jammed more than once per minute. That's amazing, you can simply allign, jam and warp-away, have a huge chance of jamming and forcing them to go trough a relock timer.
Let's take Signal Dispersion 4, Frequency Modulation 4, Long Distance Jamming 4 (assuming all those skills apply). Let's see best named ECM burst: Base: str: 7.2 range: 6km falloff: 6km Cycle time: 30sec
Skills applied: str: 7.2*1.2 = 8.64 range: 6km*1.2 = 7.2km falloff: 6km*1.2 = 7.2km Cycle time: 30 sec
Let's take the crow. Assuming it is at point blank (which it really shouldn't be). Crow sensor strength: 12 Chance to break crow lock: 8.64/12*100% = 72%
This looks fine, since crow has one of the highest sensor strengths of all frigate class ships.
Now let's see if that crow is sitting 16km out. Falloff modifier: 0.5^((16-7.2)/7.2)^2) ~ 0.355 Chance to break crow lock: 8.64/12*0.355*100% ~ 25.6%
Doesn't look so rosy anymore when it really matters, now does it ?
ECM burst vs megathron with same parameters: Megathron str: 21
Chance to break megathron lock within 7.2km: At 0 seconds: 8.64/21 ~ 41.1% After 30 seconds: (1-(1-8.64/21)^2)*100% ~ 65.36 % After 60 seconds: (1-(1-8.64/21)^3)*100% ~ 79.61 %
Also, drones are minitiature ships, there's no reason besides too much stress on the cluster that mechanics don't apply to them properly. Just take a look at fighters. Drones are just smaller, automated units.
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Kai Lae
Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.05.28 21:56:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Kai Lae on 28/05/2007 21:56:19 Welcome to the most bugged module in the game!
#1. Burst does not work on drones. #2. Frequency modulation skill has no effect on ECM burst. #3. Ship bonuses have no effect on ECM burst modules other than a scorpion. Griffin, Blackbird, Rook, and Falcon have no effect on the ECM burst.
And while not a bug, you have to wonder what the utility of a module with a 30 second cycle time is that only breaks locks, and never jams anything is. While useful in a heavy dampening enviroment that's about the only time that it is useful. In addition, it take 288 cap per use on the T2 version, which is so high that you must wonder even on battleships if it's too much. If it had 1/2 the cap use it might be marginal. If it jammed targets for 5-10 seconds or had a 10 second cycle time it might be useful. But presently it's pretty much like reinforced bulkheads II, though afaik bulkheads aren't chock full o' bugs.
Raptor and Ares Fix |
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