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Sc0rpion
Minmatar MetaForge Ekliptika
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Posted - 2007.05.27 23:56:00 -
[31]
Originally by: n0thing
Originally by: Audri Fisher
Originally by: Akane Miyamoto Edited by: Akane Miyamoto on 27/05/2007 20:14:51
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Edited by: Tobias Sjodin on 27/05/2007 17:10:47 The biggest problem I see with amarr is that their guns don't do enough damage to compensate for their only possibility to deal two damage types.
WHAT? Oh man.. A T2 fitted pulse geddon broke my dominix' tank (And he did it very fast concidering all my resists were 75-80). Something a T2 neutron hyperion with maxed gunnery supports and gallente BS lv4 couldn't do. Yeah, not enough damage. I would be dead by now if he had fitted a cap injector
what mod should he have droped in one of his 3 mids to put an injecotr on?
Sensor Booster I assume? Theres quite some BS setups that dont have room for it usually.
Let's clarify something here. If the guy was flying a pulse 'geddeon, he didn't have a sensor booster. Amarr pilots gave up on sensor boosters a long time ago. He most likely had in his mid slots:
AB/MWD (probably AB, for the reasons mentioned above) Webfier Scrambler
If he drops the webfier, the crappy tracking on his pulses can't hit anything smaller than a BS or a very slow BC.
If he drops the scrambler, his target escapes.
If he drops the AB, he can't dictate range and (unless he's fighting another pulse boat) ends up fighting well beyond his falloff, or too close for his weapons to track.
Now let's ask the question again. Which of the above modules should he drop in order to fit a cap booster?
The true secret to enjoying life is to live it dangerously. -Friedrich Nietzsche
Killmails are for pooftas. |
Cleron
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Posted - 2007.05.27 23:59:00 -
[32]
The cap bonus wastes a bonus slot on most Amarr ships so we can use our racial weapons. Those with out this bonus can't fit lasers because of the crazy cap usage, & only at ship lvl 5 do you catch up to Glenty in terms of cap usage.
Losing a bonus means the ships have only one strong point rather then 2. A Hyp has damage and tank, a Mega has tracking & damage. Now take one of those away & you see just how much it can effect a ship. It might not always kill a ship, but it can have a very strong effect on its usefulness & ability's.
Other things include: Hard fitting for small ships (beams are just nasty), Poor tracking, lack of drones on some ships that could use them (Zealot, Apoc, Proph etc). Lasers could also use a bit more range, this could be fixed with a bonus though just like tracking.
They don't suck, but they have issues for sure.
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Derrios
Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.28 01:17:00 -
[33]
Amarr tend to have more defense oriented skills on some of their ships compared to the said min and gall. So do caldari. That tells you how the race is supposed to "allegedly" work. ----------------------------------------------- I got something to put in you. at the *** bar. |
Sir Bart
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.05.28 06:46:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Xequecal
The numbers just don't seem to lend to the Amarr dread doing significantly higher DPS. Are you sure you're not seeing higher DPS because you mostly use them to reinforce POSs, which consists of shooting at shields with low EM resist?
Pretty sure you haven't checked the numbers... damage multiplier / rate of fire is higher on dual giga beams than any other long range dread weapon. Since Revelation also gets a damage bonus and no other dreads get more than 1 damage bonus that's all you need to take into account.
I'm telling you dps without considering resists of what you're shooting. iirc @ 150 km, moros gets 1800 dps and revelation gets 2500. It's not even close. @ 200 km, rev still wins by a large margin. At 50 km... (provided everyone uses their long range guns) rev wins again at around 3500 dps.
-Bart CCP: please fix the asteroids in the new regions.
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Siloh
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Posted - 2007.05.28 07:47:00 -
[35]
Aw come on we all know it's not who can do slightly higher dps in a fight that's guaranteed a win. If you have a blasterthron attacking a scorp the mega will win due to its firepower (never mind ew) sure, but the outcome of most fights has nothing to do with who has 5% more dps. If you feel your megapulses aren't biting as good as you'd like, have fun devising some new exciting tactics (L2P)
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Dopefish
Amarr Quad and Fish
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Posted - 2007.05.28 08:06:00 -
[36]
Amarr needs more cpu to fit cap injector. Pulses need more range to compensate for lack of maneuverability, or more cpu to fit mwd.
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Siloh
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Posted - 2007.05.28 08:11:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Dopefish Amarr needs more cpu to fit cap injector. Pulses need more range to compensate for lack of maneuverability, or more cpu to fit mwd.
That's just curing the symptoms, it's having to fit a cap injector to be able to function normally that's the problem imo.
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Dopefish
Amarr Quad and Fish
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Posted - 2007.05.28 08:23:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Siloh
That's just curing the symptoms, it's having to fit a cap injector to be able to function normally that's the problem imo.
True.
But altering cap use on Laser turrets is walking a fine line. If you lower it too much you will see a return of the megapulse scorpion and other bastard creations.
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goodby4u
Logistic Technologies Incorporated Free Trade Coalition
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Posted - 2007.05.28 08:28:00 -
[39]
Edited by: goodby4u on 28/05/2007 08:27:00
Originally by: Veritas Falx Why does every say they are broken besides cap use?
Because whiners make them look bad on the forums. __________________________________________ Yes it is great being amarr. I am minmatar,fly amarr,use gellente drones and am in caldari space. |
Delene
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Posted - 2007.05.28 08:30:00 -
[40]
What Amarr ships need is 50% Nos resistance. There I've said it
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Draahkness
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Posted - 2007.05.28 08:38:00 -
[41]
To start with: please excuse my noobiness, im an industrial alt branching into pvp and my main is caldari/minmatar so heres a few questions:
EM damage is teh suck in pvp yes, usually I have 83% or so with EAN and DCU II (on my main), but isnt the short range crystals 80% thermal damage? Thermal is, usually, the lowest resist right? Most setups (exept bs) have lack of lows and as such have EAN, DCU, Kin, Explo, Rep, (Rep) leaving thermal at around 45%.
As far as tackling and webbing an opponent dont you guys have ceptors/arazus/huginns in your gangs? Solo pvp is extremely rare, only time it happens really is when youre a nub and travel in something slow solo without proper intel and jump into a hostile camp. So wouldnt a viable setup for armageddon be 7 megapulse, cap injector, sensor booster and maybe a 24k point, tank and maybe a damage mod lows? And leave the tackling/webbing to cruisers and frigs?
Cap use and low alpha is a know problem for amarr sniper setups but i thought in my folly that megabeams/tachs had the best tracking of all long range weapons?
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Siloh
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Posted - 2007.05.28 08:38:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Dopefish
Originally by: Siloh
That's just curing the symptoms, it's having to fit a cap injector to be able to function normally that's the problem imo.
True.
But altering cap use on Laser turrets is walking a fine line. If you lower it too much you will see a return of the megapulse scorpion and other bastard creations.
Would hardly matter since most ships have damage bonuses of their own and in any case the amarrian ships are the only ones with laser bonuses, so it would still be the obvious choice for laser systems. And besides, I never felt especially threatened by a scorpion with lasers tbh.
If you are concerned just buff the laser cap usage bonus on apocs instead of lowering cap usage on lasers in general. To be perfectly honest I'm not sure you should be able to have 8 megabeam II going at the same time as infini-tank with 2xLAR II's, which is what people seem to be after with this whole Amarr whineage thing
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Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr A Better Future
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Posted - 2007.05.28 08:59:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Nomakai Delateriel on 28/05/2007 09:00:56
Originally by: Siloh If you are concerned just buff the laser cap usage bonus on apocs instead of lowering cap usage on lasers in general. To be perfectly honest I'm not sure you should be able to have 8 megabeam II going at the same time as infini-tank with 2xLAR II's, which is what people seem to be after with this whole Amarr whineage thing
I don't think anyone wants 8 megabeam IIs with 2xLAR IIs going at the same time (except maybe on a pimped out Apoc). We would like however the ability to be able to fit any form of beams and have any tank what so ever at the same time. As it is if you fit anything beam-ish (except maybe dual heavies) you end up with paper tank. Either it's paper thin because your cap will be gone in 20 seconds, or it's paper thin because after the RCUs and Capmods necessary to even run your guns you didn't have any room for a tank. Tank vs Gank is a problem BEFORE you even fit damage mods! And that's on battleships. On frigates fitting beams (especially the heaviest ones) is just futile and only a few cruisers can fit a full rack of heavy beams and a half-decent tank.
Also Tachs take up an absurd amount of grid without providing proportionally decent damage. As it is a full rack of tachs isn't that far ahead of 425 rails (I think there was a comparison from a few months ago where you had to use standard crystals to keep up with Iron rail rounds). ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary. |
Dopefish
Amarr Quad and Fish
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Posted - 2007.05.28 09:20:00 -
[44]
My main frustration with Amarr ships is that they are designed to fit 2-3 cap relays in low. If you do this everything makes sense and fits reasonably. If you dont, and put damage mods on, you wont have cpu for your midslots.
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n0thing
Northern Intelligence Artificial Intelligence.
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Posted - 2007.05.28 09:22:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Sc0rpion
Originally by: n0thing
Originally by: Audri Fisher
Originally by: Akane Miyamoto
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin stuff
stuff
stuff
stuff
Let's clarify something here. If the guy was flying a pulse 'geddeon, he didn't have a sensor booster. Amarr pilots gave up on sensor boosters a long time ago. He most likely had in his mid slots:
AB/MWD (probably AB, for the reasons mentioned above) Webfier Scrambler
If he drops the webfier, the crappy tracking on his pulses can't hit anything smaller than a BS or a very slow BC.
If he drops the scrambler, his target escapes.
If he drops the AB, he can't dictate range and (unless he's fighting another pulse boat) ends up fighting well beyond his falloff, or too close for his weapons to track.
Now let's ask the question again. Which of the above modules should he drop in order to fit a cap booster?
Yep, I admit your right, in that case no places actually. However adding another middle slot wont solve problem in any case, the altering needs to be done in other fields that would then give indirect boost to all cap-using turret ships. Cap Booster is a good thing, but unlike nosfs and other cap drain/eleminate modules they are not running constantly, they have standart turret realod times and they have huge size of charges. ---
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Krysta Gemme
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Posted - 2007.05.28 12:29:00 -
[46]
Well... let me get this straight.
The reason we can't lower cap usage on lasers is because we don't want other races rocking them for RP reasons? Like a Scorpion loaded with Beams or something like that?
Then... well, check this out... maybe I'm crazy. I'm new after all... but why not just make Amarr ships have a specific ability to lower cap usage on LASERS.
Keep the cap usage the same, just make ships of Amarr design, use it DIFFERENTLY than other races. If this is already so... I can't tell. All I see is Amarr ships have MORE cap than other ship types to compensate. Obviously this isn't enough, there should be an innate ability to also use it more efficiently.
Keep it on the ship itself, not the laser type, and you solve the problem. You don't risk other ships using it, and you make it more efficient for the race that is SUPPOSED to be using them.
As such, I see Punisher's and Assault Frigates rolling around with Autocannon's because of cap usage... is this the way it's supposed to be?
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Daedalus DuGalle
Gallente University of Caille
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Posted - 2007.05.28 13:02:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Daedalus DuGalle on 28/05/2007 13:01:54
Originally by: Krysta Gemme Then... well, check this out... maybe I'm crazy. I'm new after all... but why not just make Amarr ships have a specific ability to lower cap usage on LASERS.
Amarr ships currently DO have the ability to lower cap use on guns. "10% bonus to cap use on small/medium/large energy turrets".
The problem is Amarr NEED this bonus to simply be able to shoot their racial guns, thus wasting a bonus. No other race has this problem, they all got 2 spiffy ship bonuses, while Amarr effectively get 1.
edit: can't spell
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Dristra
Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.28 13:03:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Krysta Gemme Well... let me get this straight.
The reason we can't lower cap usage on lasers is because we don't want other races rocking them for RP reasons? Like a Scorpion loaded with Beams or something like that?
Then... well, check this out... maybe I'm crazy. I'm new after all... but why not just make Amarr ships have a specific ability to lower cap usage on LASERS.
Keep the cap usage the same, just make ships of Amarr design, use it DIFFERENTLY than other races. If this is already so... I can't tell. All I see is Amarr ships have MORE cap than other ship types to compensate. Obviously this isn't enough, there should be an innate ability to also use it more efficiently.
Keep it on the ship itself, not the laser type, and you solve the problem. You don't risk other ships using it, and you make it more efficient for the race that is SUPPOSED to be using them.
As such, I see Punisher's and Assault Frigates rolling around with Autocannon's because of cap usage... is this the way it's supposed to be?
Well, another problem is that amarr ships DON'T have more cap than similar class ships from other races
It's great being Amarr isn't it.
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Draahkness
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Posted - 2007.05.28 13:47:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Draahkness To start with: please excuse my noobiness, im an industrial alt branching into pvp and my main is caldari/minmatar so heres a few questions:
EM damage is teh suck in pvp yes, usually I have 83% or so with EAN and DCU II (on my main), but isnt the short range crystals 80% thermal damage? Thermal is, usually, the lowest resist right? Most setups (exept bs) have lack of lows and as such have EAN, DCU, Kin, Explo, Rep, (Rep) leaving thermal at around 45%.
As far as tackling and webbing an opponent dont you guys have ceptors/arazus/huginns in your gangs? Solo pvp is extremely rare, only time it happens really is when youre a nub and travel in something slow solo without proper intel and jump into a hostile camp. So wouldnt a viable setup for armageddon be 7 megapulse, cap injector, sensor booster and maybe a 24k point, tank and maybe a damage mod lows? And leave the tackling/webbing to cruisers and frigs?
Cap use and low alpha is a know problem for amarr sniper setups but i thought in my folly that megabeams/tachs had the best tracking of all long range weapons?
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Hellspawn01
Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries
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Posted - 2007.05.28 14:34:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Veritas Falx Why does every say they are broken besides cap use?
Cuz you touch yourself at night.
Ship lovers click here |
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Dopefish
Amarr Quad and Fish
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Posted - 2007.05.28 14:39:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Draahkness So wouldnt a viable setup for armageddon be 7 megapulse, cap injector, sensor booster and maybe a 24k point, tank and maybe a damage mod lows?
I dont know if you're serious about this setup, but it does not fit, and if it did fit us amarr would be lolling at the gates right now.
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Draahkness
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Posted - 2007.05.28 15:39:00 -
[52]
Yup I was seriuos. Like I said I have not much experience with amarr. The only arma I ever fitted had 7 dual modulated heavy beams, tracking comp, cap injector, sensor booster, 3 damage mods, 3 harderners, 1 DCU and 1 LAR. If I remember correctly. It blew up in a fight with a carrier on a gate due to being 2km from the cyno and not making it out of the carriers 28km scramble range.
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Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr Riggers Incorporated
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Posted - 2007.05.28 15:40:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Daedalus DuGalle Edited by: Daedalus DuGalle on 28/05/2007 13:01:54
Originally by: Krysta Gemme Then... well, check this out... maybe I'm crazy. I'm new after all... but why not just make Amarr ships have a specific ability to lower cap usage on LASERS.
Amarr ships currently DO have the ability to lower cap use on guns. "10% bonus to cap use on small/medium/large energy turrets".
The problem is Amarr NEED this bonus to simply be able to shoot their racial guns, thus wasting a bonus. No other race has this problem, they all got 2 spiffy ship bonuses, while Amarr effectively get 1.
edit: can't spell
True we get a "special" bonus to make our weapons work, but doesn't all the other races basically get the same. Artilleries have crap base DPS and tracking, therefor the Tempest get tracking and damage bonuses (iirc). Mega is a bit of a wonder since blasters allready do loads of damage and iirc have good tracking, but they still need to get so close so they need the extra damage both tracking and damage gives.
Imo, the 10% cap reduction bonus is fine and good. We could trade that for a RoF/Dam/Tracking bonus if they reduced the base cap use and removed the build in dam bonus on lasers, but would it make the guns better? I like that Amarr are the only ones that can use laser effectivly, Minnies that can use Projectile effectivly, Caldari that can use Missiles effectivly and Gallente that can use blasters effectivly.
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Siakel
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Posted - 2007.05.28 15:49:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Draahkness
EM damage is teh suck in pvp yes, usually I have 83% or so with EAN and DCU II (on my main), but isnt the short range crystals 80% thermal damage? Thermal is, usually, the lowest resist right? Most setups (exept bs) have lack of lows and as such have EAN, DCU, Kin, Explo, Rep, (Rep) leaving thermal at around 45%.
No.. most setups have EANM/EANM/DCU, leaving resists looking like 80/60/60/60.
And there is not a single crystal in EVE that has more Thermal damage than EM. The closest you get is 50/50, and the longer range crystals get up to 100% EM.
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Sc0rpion
Minmatar MetaForge Ekliptika
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Posted - 2007.05.28 16:11:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Dopefish But altering cap use on Laser turrets is walking a fine line. If you lower it too much you will see a return of the megapulse scorpion and other bastard creations.
Somehow, I don't see people lining up to use weapon systems where everyone is 80-90% immune to their main damage type, no matter how little cap they may use.
The true secret to enjoying life is to live it dangerously. -Friedrich Nietzsche
Killmails are for pooftas. |
ReePeR McAllem
The Carebear Stare
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Posted - 2007.05.28 16:25:00 -
[56]
Amarr have the best:
Recons. Best tanked BS. (Abaddon) Geddon which does more DPS max gank fitted than a mega. That can dictate range easier.
Amarr suites me just fine.
Only noobs whine about Amarr.
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Golmath Thorrk
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Posted - 2007.05.28 16:51:00 -
[57]
Originally by: ReePeR McAllem Amarr have the best:
Recons. Best tanked BS. (Abaddon) Geddon which does more DPS max gank fitted than a mega. That can dictate range easier.
Only noobs whine about Amarr.
1. Uh no, the best recons according to the market are Gallente (which are now the most expensive). 2. Maelstrom tanks better than the Abaddon in both max dps tanked and max dps sustained. 3. A gank geddon does quite a bit less dps than a gank fitted megathron or hyperion
In short, don't talk about what you have no clue about.
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Sc0rpion
Minmatar MetaForge Ekliptika
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Posted - 2007.05.28 17:12:00 -
[58]
Originally by: n0thing Yep, I admit your right, in that case no places actually. However adding another middle slot wont solve problem in any case, the altering needs to be done in other fields that would then give indirect boost to all cap-using turret ships. Cap Booster is a good thing, but unlike nosfs and other cap drain/eleminate modules they are not running constantly, they have standart turret realod times and they have huge size of charges.
On that, I whole-heartedly agree. The problem is not whether or not an Amarr ship can fit a cap booster. The problem is that it must fit one if it wants to keep running it's weapons for any length of time. And as you can see, on many ships it just can't fit one.
I think the real heart of the matter is time. Amarr ships need time to overcome their opponents' rediculously high EM resist in almost every case. But in almost every case, they lack the capacitor to buy that time.
Cap boosters and cap rechargers buy time for the Amarr pilot, and nos/neuts take it away. This is working as intended. Unfortunately, the act of using your weapons (which should increase your time by taking it away from your opponent) actually decreases your time at an even faster rate than it does your opponent's.
The solution seems obvious. A 50% cap increase for every ship in the fleet. Then pull those stupid cap use bonuses off the ships and replace it with...I dunno, there are plenty of good ideas posted here and elsewhere. Say maybe a 5% EM damage / level or something.
The true secret to enjoying life is to live it dangerously. -Friedrich Nietzsche
Killmails are for pooftas. |
Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.05.28 17:17:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 28/05/2007 17:16:02
Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes
Imo, the 10% cap reduction bonus is fine and good. We could trade that for a RoF/Dam/Tracking bonus if they reduced the base cap use and removed the build in dam bonus on lasers, but would it make the guns better?
it would open up the possibility of having other bonuses isntead of just that one.
1. remove laser cap reduction bonus from all ships 2. reduce the base capneed of lasers 3. reduce laser base damage 4. add a laser damage bonus to our gank ships (geddon, omen, harbinger) -> everything as before for those ships
5. add a new and useful bonus* to our tankers (punisher, maller, proph, apoc) -> oh noes those ships are actually useful with lasers now?
*useful bonus meaning a bonus that does not involve using caphungry weapons on a tanker. right now fitting a maller with cruiser sized lasers means you end up with a mediocre tank and crappy damage. if you go for autocannons instead you get a really nice tank and stay with crappy damage. fitting caphungry weapons just doesnt work very well with building a good tank.
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ReePeR McAllem
The Carebear Stare
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Posted - 2007.05.28 17:41:00 -
[60]
Edited by: ReePeR McAllem on 28/05/2007 17:40:37
Originally by: Golmath Thorrk
Originally by: ReePeR McAllem Amarr have the best:
Recons. Best tanked BS. (Abaddon) Geddon which does more DPS max gank fitted than a mega. That can dictate range easier.
Only noobs whine about Amarr.
1. Uh no, the best recons according to the market are Gallente (which are now the most expensive). 2. Maelstrom tanks better than the Abaddon in both max dps tanked and max dps sustained. 3. A gank geddon does quite a bit less dps than a gank fitted megathron or hyperion
In short, don't talk about what you have no clue about.
1.) Gal recon prices may be on the up, but the best recon voted by eve-o is the curse.
2.) your wrong about the maelstrom. The abaddon out tanks it.
3.) If you read right I commented not only on DPS factor but range factor.
In short, don't get all flamey for no reason and GTFO
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