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Happster
Polaris Project
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Posted - 2007.05.20 22:32:00 -
[121]
Edited by: Happster on 20/05/2007 22:33:36
Originally by: Lab Ratta
Originally by: Happster Edited by: Happster on 20/05/2007 01:33:06
You my friend seems to be forgetting a lot of stuff too ;)
1. You speak of your missiles not able to do sensible damage on very fast moving targets. Guess what. Guns doesnt either. This has to do with tracking and transversal velocity. The difference here between guns and missiles is guns doesnt hit at all, but your missiles actually do some damage.
2. Missiles doesnt snipe very well. But so what? Everything in this game has its role. One thing isnt supose to be good at everything. Missiles are good in all areas except sniping. To make missiles good in sniping too, would just put things out of balance.
3. If you want to be a sniper, train gunnery and get a Rohk and outsnipe everyone!
4. Please dont try to fix something thats not broken. As i said in #2, everything in eve has its role. Its place and its use. So if you want to fly raven and missiles go do missions, ratt, or even pvp in small gangs. You will be uber in doing that.
5. First that comes to my mind when reading about raven / missile ppl wanting their stuff to do better in new areas is that you have it too easy. Your not used to work for your stuff to do well. Im flying a minnie, and you will out damage and out tank me any day in your raven with torps. That is if you actually use your brain to set it up right. But hey, im not whining.
1. if the target has aspect change then the gun has a chance to hit it due to the magic bullet effect. Missiles still cant even get to the target and the opertunity for a hit is lost.
2. I am sorry guess since missiles are PVE only all GUNS should be BANNED from entering complexes and mission areas. Since you are saying it is ok for missiles to be reduced to the role of PVE.
3. you said it. I just dont want to have too go guns but i am being given no choice.
4. lets draw the lines and make sure guns cant be used in PVE then ill be glad to allow that missiles be useless in PVP.
5. we just want SOME equal footing. that is all
1. You really have not played with guns, have you? Your missiles have a lot bigger chanse of hitting target and do damage to moving targets then any gun has. If i sit with 1400 guns on a pest and you orbit me at 5km at a speed of 20 m/s, i will never ever hit you. You with your missiles will! Go play with the tracking guyd so you get some clue about how it is to play with guns.
2. Missiles doesnt snipe very well because they have so freaking many other things going for them.
3. Yes i said it. Go train up gunnery if you want to snipe. No shame in that.
4. NC as that comment is stupid
5. You dont want equal at all. As missiles has no range obsticle, you allways hit targets, you can choose what damage you want to do, your missiles doesnt use cap, you out damage most guns. Guns on the other hand has optimall range, and falloff. Outside that range they cant hit anything. Not even with magic ;) Some guns use caps, all guns has restricted damage dealings. No gun can choose what damage type to deal like a missile. We cant hit very fast targets at all.
You really dont see it do you? That your missiles has way more advantages then any gun has. There are only 1 backdraw with missiles. Their bad for sniping. So what? 1 weapon shouldnt rule everyone else. You can atleast try to look objective and professional when yelling get things in balance. Your actually yelling get things out of balance now. If you had your way everyone would swop to fly raven.....yay...what a happy world.
6. Train up guns. Just do it. so you atleast know what your talking about.
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Dark Kavar
Caldari Aionios Diadochi The Makhai
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Posted - 2007.05.21 00:19:00 -
[122]
I've tried guns and missiles for pvp and pve, and other than lvl 4 missions, I found guns to be alot more useful than missiles.
Kind of like the Triforce in Zelda, only not quite as potent.
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Shaemell Buttleson
Darwin With Attitude
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Posted - 2007.05.21 00:43:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Lab Ratta
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Lab Ratta
This was a nice try but what you also forget is the simple fact guns fire faster than missiles....about 2 to 1.....so then using your numbers you see how gimped missile damage is.
Damage per second takes rate of fire into account. Its a average value. So its accurate. His graph shows exactly how low dps turrets have at range.
I would be curious to see how a ship with 8 guns firing at twice the speed of the 6 missile launchers would put out less damage.
Cause i really think if missile boats were the powerhouse he described why would everyone want to pvp in gun-ships?
Using caldari missile boats and minmatar gunships in PVP i beg to differ. I really wish the ROF on my Tempest was the same as my Raven with the same amount of Gyros and BCU's.
However if they were both 200km from each other the raven would be hit possibly from 4 salvos befor it's missiles hit the pest. But (and this is the clincher for me), no way could a Tempest setup so it hits hard and often from 200km is going tank like the Raven can. Thats why I like using the Missile boats in PVP. They tank really well and providing you are in range every missile you fire hits.
There are probably more caldari/missile pilots engaging in PVP than you realise.
Your signature was inappropriate, email [email protected] to find out why (don't forget to include a link to it) -Sahwoolo |
Spacer John
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Posted - 2007.05.21 00:49:00 -
[124]
---"1. Missiles has its role as i said in the previouse post of mine. Plex, Ratting, Missions, and small gang pvp. And if you think your missiles do less dps then guns, you have your facts wrong. If you compare it to the blasterthrone, maybe it does. But so does everyone else. Do a check vs the AC's. You will find missiles on top in that comparation. 2. Raven has the abillity to fit both tank and gank. That my friend is one of the few ships in eve that can do that well. 3. DPS for guns are calculated in perfect enviroment. Something you never see on the battlefield. The true dps will allways be worse. 4. We dont want a ship that is a i win button. Seems you do ;) 5. Wrecking shots is like 1 out of 1k shots. So its far from a common hit.
As i said. You will come on top of any minmatar BS with a rave. In both tank and gank. Raven has a role in all places in eve, except for in a sniper fleet. Get over it. You will not get it all."---
I specifically said that I had little experience with guns and most of my post was looking for more information. Who is asking for an "I win" button? Claiming I did just makes you look like a jackass.
Guns do less damage than missiles? What FACTS did I claim I had? All I said is that was what I percieved as the the general consesus on the forums. I also wasn't sure how gun DPS was calculated. According to you the DPS is calculated as if in perfect conditions, the second part of my question was if anyone did calculations to determine the average "worse" DPS figure on an actual battlefield.
I don't really consider PVE as a good role for missiles considering I don't enjoy running missions much and I thought this was a PVP argument. I do however enjoy small gang warfare. If the missile role is small gang warfare, then that means they do it better than other weapon systems. In this case I'm happy with missiles and don't feel that they need a boost.
You make the Raven sound like the king of PVP with its "Gank AND Tank" ability. If this is the case I'll have to read up on more Raven PVP setups to take advantage of this.
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Spacer John
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Posted - 2007.05.21 00:52:00 -
[125]
---"No. It means that missiles need something to hold their target, mobile/interdictor bubble or tackler and have in exchange considerably higher range dps than other weapons.
And this is exactly the tactic corps like Burn Eden are using. A dictor and a few "sniper" ravens."---
Ah ok, this is actually what I was wondering, thanks. I guess bubbling a gate and sitting out at 80km would be a nice tactic for a small gang with a Raven, especially if the intys had TPs.
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Lab Ratta
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Posted - 2007.05.21 00:56:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Spacer John ---"1. Missiles has its role as i said in the previouse post of mine. Plex, Ratting, Missions, and small gang pvp. And if you think your missiles do less dps then guns, you have your facts wrong. If you compare it to the blasterthrone, maybe it does. But so does everyone else. Do a check vs the AC's. You will find missiles on top in that comparation. 2. Raven has the abillity to fit both tank and gank. That my friend is one of the few ships in eve that can do that well. 3. DPS for guns are calculated in perfect enviroment. Something you never see on the battlefield. The true dps will allways be worse. 4. We dont want a ship that is a i win button. Seems you do ;) 5. Wrecking shots is like 1 out of 1k shots. So its far from a common hit.
As i said. You will come on top of any minmatar BS with a rave. In both tank and gank. Raven has a role in all places in eve, except for in a sniper fleet. Get over it. You will not get it all."---
I specifically said that I had little experience with guns and most of my post was looking for more information. Who is asking for an "I win" button? Claiming I did just makes you look like a jackass.
Guns do less damage than missiles? What FACTS did I claim I had? All I said is that was what I percieved as the the general consesus on the forums. I also wasn't sure how gun DPS was calculated. According to you the DPS is calculated as if in perfect conditions, the second part of my question was if anyone did calculations to determine the average "worse" DPS figure on an actual battlefield.
I don't really consider PVE as a good role for missiles considering I don't enjoy running missions much and I thought this was a PVP argument. I do however enjoy small gang warfare. If the missile role is small gang warfare, then that means they do it better than other weapon systems. In this case I'm happy with missiles and don't feel that they need a boost.
You make the Raven sound like the king of PVP with its "Gank AND Tank" ability. If this is the case I'll have to read up on more Raven PVP setups to take advantage of this.
Main problem I cant seem to get across to all you people is that your view that missiles are for plexing and missions go learn guns for pvp is not how it should be. Guy right there toward end of page 4 even admits that he does missions with a gun-ship and then can turn around and go pvp also.
But all i get from you gun-bunnies is go learn guns for pvp. If that is how it is suppose to be then all you gun-bunnies should HAVE to put in the 10 million + SP to bring up missiles.
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Spacer John
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Posted - 2007.05.21 01:00:00 -
[127]
---"I was worried about this myself alot. So after calculating in quickfit i came to the conclusion that i would lose most of the fights in my raven. But i didnt want to believe this so i went to the testserver and fought against my mates tII blaster domi, nos domi,tII blaster mega, tII neutron blaster and dual cap injected hyperion. the funny thing was i won all the fights except the fight against the nos domi. in all other fights my mate capped out even with 2 injectors. so at the end i have to say missiles/vs turrets are extremely balanced, at least at close range. the better tank makes up for the slight less dps."---
OK thanks, thats good info to have. Sounds like missiles are fairly balanced not counting fleet battles.
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FMarshal Montgomery
Caldari Mean Anglo-Danes
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Posted - 2007.05.21 01:03:00 -
[128]
hmmm this is like saying whats better for your food, salt or pepper....
missiles obviously arent meant for great range otherwise ccp would let them be fired at speed and over longer distances. id heard that ccp nerfed missiles ages ago because they were TOO powerful. but hey if u wanna snipe me from 200km, then ill just warp in closer and give u full broadside from 15km then lets see u call them useless than pal!
My lowest Faction standing is with......Caldari, bugger it 'The Forge' is full of noobs!! Pirates are pussies in Real Life - FACT! |
Lab Ratta
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Posted - 2007.05.21 01:08:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Shaemell Buttleson
Originally by: Lab Ratta
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Lab Ratta
This was a nice try but what you also forget is the simple fact guns fire faster than missiles....about 2 to 1.....so then using your numbers you see how gimped missile damage is.
Damage per second takes rate of fire into account. Its a average value. So its accurate. His graph shows exactly how low dps turrets have at range.
I would be curious to see how a ship with 8 guns firing at twice the speed of the 6 missile launchers would put out less damage.
Cause i really think if missile boats were the powerhouse he described why would everyone want to pvp in gun-ships?
Using caldari missile boats and minmatar gunships in PVP i beg to differ. I really wish the ROF on my Tempest was the same as my Raven with the same amount of Gyros and BCU's.
However if they were both 200km from each other the raven would be hit possibly from 4 salvos befor it's missiles hit the pest. But (and this is the clincher for me), no way could a Tempest setup so it hits hard and often from 200km is going tank like the Raven can. Thats why I like using the Missile boats in PVP. They tank really well and providing you are in range every missile you fire hits.
There are probably more caldari/missile pilots engaging in PVP than you realise.
Your RoF compare for minmatar guns vs caldari missiles doesnt stand
Crusie missile 2 has base RoF of 17.5 and 800mm Large Artillery has base RoF of 7.88
the other Large Minmatar guns were even faster.
So what were you trying to say when you said you wish that your guns had the RoF from your Raven?
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Lab Ratta
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Posted - 2007.05.21 01:33:00 -
[130]
guy was comparing the Domi to a Raven in DPS earlier in the thread and said a Raven could out DPS a Domi.
I think he forgot that a Domi can fit 6 GUNS to go along with his drones and that will just beat the pants off a Raven for pure DPS
Just think jump in and see a raven sitting there at 50km off gate. Drop 5 Wardens and MWD over to the Raven open up with your 6 blasters (or 4 blasters with 2 heavy NOS to kill any tank you want to) that Raven will die so fast it is likely that the Domi will still have shields left.
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murder one
Gallente Death of Virtue Vigilance Infinitas
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Posted - 2007.05.21 02:14:00 -
[131]
I was going to take apart the OP's arguments point by point and refute each of his ideas with well written eloquent prose. But after reading the whole thread, I've concluded that the OP is in fact either a troll, or just extremely stupid and has no practical PVP experience what so ever.
Because I said so...
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Jikx Everproud
ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.21 02:30:00 -
[132]
What they need is a second set of missiles that are 25% faster, and have 25% longer range, but with a 25% ROF nerf.
Either that, or have another Hi slot module called "Missile fueling optimization", which does the same as above for all missile launchers when active. Or even variations like a high slot module called "Missile burners optimization", which gives 50% extra speed, but 50% less range. Or.. maybe just have rigs :o --- I'm doing my part too! |
Ryysa
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.05.21 03:21:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Lab Ratta
Your RoF compare for minmatar guns vs caldari missiles doesnt stand
Crusie missile 2 has base RoF of 17.5 and 800mm Large Artillery has base RoF of 7.88
the other Large Minmatar guns were even faster.
I wonder how you can fail so hard at this game. 800mm Repeating Artilleries are despite their name AUTOCANNONS, they have an efficient operating range of about 20km.
Please do check the ROF on the 1400 Howitzer Artillery, which is the real large artillery weapon...
EW Guide - KB Tool - PVP Event |
Blitzkrieg
Legion Du Lys GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.05.21 03:47:00 -
[134]
I am not going to debate about a possible increase of dps/ rof for missile ships but a missile velocity increase needs to be adjusted. Nowadays, most inties fly around 8 to 10k m/s. Even a nighthawk or cerebus can't touch such a tackler due to slower missiles speed.
Just simple logic: If an interceptor can pass the 10k m/s, by simple law of physics, a missile ( much much smaller) shld also be able to reach it!
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murder one
Gallente Death of Virtue Vigilance Infinitas
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Posted - 2007.05.21 03:56:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Blitzkrieg I am not going to debate about a possible increase of dps/ rof for missile ships but a missile velocity increase needs to be adjusted. Nowadays, most inties fly around 8 to 10k m/s. Even a nighthawk or cerebus can't touch such a tackler due to slower missiles speed.
Just simple logic: If an interceptor can pass the 10k m/s, by simple law of physics, a missile ( much much smaller) shld also be able to reach it!
Nope. The Space Shuttle can go mach 25+. A Sidewinder (AIM-9X) can go around mach 3.
You lose at analogies.
Because I said so...
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DiuxDium
Free Mercenaries Union
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Posted - 2007.05.21 04:03:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Lab Ratta guy was comparing the Domi to a Raven in DPS earlier in the thread and said a Raven could out DPS a Domi.
I think he forgot that a Domi can fit 6 GUNS to go along with his drones and that will just beat the pants off a Raven for pure DPS
Just think jump in and see a raven sitting there at 50km off gate. Drop 5 Wardens and MWD over to the Raven open up with your 6 blasters (or 4 blasters with 2 heavy NOS to kill any tank you want to) that Raven will die so fast it is likely that the Domi will still have shields left.
He'll be dead before he makes the 50km trek. Also if the idiot uses Sentry drones instead of Heavy II's, he shouldn't be flying a domi.
99% of raven setups have 2x H Nos as well (fyi).
Do you actually play Eve? ------------- The above user should never be taken seriously. |
Happster
Polaris Project
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Posted - 2007.05.21 04:33:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Lab Ratta
Originally by: Shaemell Buttleson
Originally by: Lab Ratta
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Lab Ratta
This was a nice try but what you also forget is the simple fact guns fire faster than missiles....about 2 to 1.....so then using your numbers you see how gimped missile damage is.
Damage per second takes rate of fire into account. Its a average value. So its accurate. His graph shows exactly how low dps turrets have at range.
I would be curious to see how a ship with 8 guns firing at twice the speed of the 6 missile launchers would put out less damage.
Cause i really think if missile boats were the powerhouse he described why would everyone want to pvp in gun-ships?
Using caldari missile boats and minmatar gunships in PVP i beg to differ. I really wish the ROF on my Tempest was the same as my Raven with the same amount of Gyros and BCU's.
However if they were both 200km from each other the raven would be hit possibly from 4 salvos befor it's missiles hit the pest. But (and this is the clincher for me), no way could a Tempest setup so it hits hard and often from 200km is going tank like the Raven can. Thats why I like using the Missile boats in PVP. They tank really well and providing you are in range every missile you fire hits.
There are probably more caldari/missile pilots engaging in PVP than you realise.
Your RoF compare for minmatar guns vs caldari missiles doesnt stand
Crusie missile 2 has base RoF of 17.5 and 800mm Large Artillery has base RoF of 7.88
the other Large Minmatar guns were even faster.
So what were you trying to say when you said you wish that your guns had the RoF from your Raven?
Those guns has a very good ROF. But you put them on a ship and try to snipe with them. You wont hit anything with them abowe 50km. And that is with falloff rigs ;)
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Sionide
Axe Gang
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Posted - 2007.05.21 04:58:00 -
[138]
Another clueless OP post.
All the devs fly gun ships? Hmm...funny, since I recall in one of the PvP tournies when it was Devs vs Content, Lemonde (the dev that runs the tournament) flew a Raven, but no go on with your worthless argument.
Missile ships have their place as do gun ships. There are pros and cons for both, for missiles namely that they never miss the target if the ship is lock range and missile velocity range (and that the target ship isn't too fast to outrun the missile or explosion velocity). They take no cap to run, can choose 1 type of damage if they want to do max possible damage, and they are still effective even dampened or jammped (fofs), blah blah.
Nothing new and other people in this thread and others like it have posted all this before. It's just obvious you have little idea what you are talking about and just ran to the forums crying bloody murder, learn2play.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.21 07:02:00 -
[139]
Edited by: Aramendel on 21/05/2007 07:01:51
Originally by: murder one Nope. The Space Shuttle can go mach 25+. A Sidewinder (AIM-9X) can go around mach 3.
You lose at analogies.
Erm...no. A shuttle can reach mach 25, yes. However this is IN SPACE! A Sidewinder - which is hardly the fastest missile around - does this in the atmosphere.
In general missiles always are able to achieve faster speed than manned craft because their engine<->payload relation can be far higher and they can afford accellerations which would reduce any passengers to red paste.
But that is for the reality. Eve is first and farmost a game. If you look at the other weapons in detail you find that they are highly unrealistic as well - lasers for example do not suddenly stop working after a range of x.
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Neuromandis
Novastorm Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.05.21 09:47:00 -
[140]
Edited by: Neuromandis on 21/05/2007 09:45:38
Originally by: Gabriel Karade I think missiles have lost too far too much of their distinctness over the last couple of years, being gradually turned into the 'fourth turret'.
It's a real shame, because you used to see them regularly used as secondary weapons resulting in more varied setups. These days everyone just simply fits the maximum number of turrets, and then slaps nosferatu in the 'spare' slots.
That, and what a guy said earlier (i cannot find the post to quote, sory) about droneships needing less highslots because drones are *weapons* as well as a few more concerns led to the thread below...
An idea for the rebalancing of drones and missiles
Please don't turn it into a flamefest as well
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Shaemell Buttleson
Darwin With Attitude
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Posted - 2007.05.21 12:04:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Lab Ratta
Originally by: Shaemell Buttleson
Originally by: Lab Ratta
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Lab Ratta
This was a nice try but what you also forget is the simple fact guns fire faster than missiles....about 2 to 1.....so then using your numbers you see how gimped missile damage is.
Damage per second takes rate of fire into account. Its a average value. So its accurate. His graph shows exactly how low dps turrets have at range.
I would be curious to see how a ship with 8 guns firing at twice the speed of the 6 missile launchers would put out less damage.
Cause i really think if missile boats were the powerhouse he described why would everyone want to pvp in gun-ships?
Using caldari missile boats and minmatar gunships in PVP i beg to differ. I really wish the ROF on my Tempest was the same as my Raven with the same amount of Gyros and BCU's.
However if they were both 200km from each other the raven would be hit possibly from 4 salvos befor it's missiles hit the pest. But (and this is the clincher for me), no way could a Tempest setup so it hits hard and often from 200km is going tank like the Raven can. Thats why I like using the Missile boats in PVP. They tank really well and providing you are in range every missile you fire hits.
There are probably more caldari/missile pilots engaging in PVP than you realise.
Your RoF compare for minmatar guns vs caldari missiles doesnt stand
Crusie missile 2 has base RoF of 17.5 and 800mm Large Artillery has base RoF of 7.88
the other Large Minmatar guns were even faster.
So what were you trying to say when you said you wish that your guns had the RoF from your Raven?
Yes I am saying that! I'd also love to have Arties that have the same ROF as AC's.
Your signature was inappropriate, email [email protected] to find out why (don't forget to include a link to it) -Sahwoolo |
Maeltstome
Minmatar Caldari Navy Raiders
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Posted - 2007.05.21 12:24:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Lab Ratta Edited by: Lab Ratta on 19/05/2007 10:26:06
Originally by: Hank Showbo
Originally by: Lab Ratta
Originally by: Montero Gun damage does indeed vary with range, as longer ranged ammo does less damage.
did you even read my post Iron charge vs Spike. Spike get a 20% boost to range and a 60% boost in Damage.
What trade off is that?????????
Spike also gives a penalty of 0.25 tracking, so tracking is reduced by 75% too.
yes but if you are shooting from 250km how fast would the target need to move to hurt your tracking? Much faster than a Battleship can ever dream of going.
Not that fast considering that yourn tracking is nerfed by -75% when using long range T2 ammo. Maybe you should try using guns ?
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Rashmika Clavain
Gallente Revelation Space
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Posted - 2007.05.21 12:29:00 -
[143]
Hmmm I think someone has their wires crossed
I don't think I've seen any tech3 battleships though
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Nian Banks
Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir
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Posted - 2007.05.21 12:54:00 -
[144]
Looking at this thread, I couldn't be bothered reading through the mental sewage that is surely within it, but on the whole point of missiles loosing out to guns.
Can the Minmatar please have a ship that is primarily a missile boat? I don't care if its a frigate, cruiser, BC, BS, Even a destroyer. I just want a minmatar missile boat.
I am sure the amarr and gallente would like a dedicated missile boat too.
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THEDON1
Chaos Reborn
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Posted - 2007.05.21 12:59:00 -
[145]
yer im a caldari char and when the frst nerf came in for missiles i stoped training them as imo they suck , i trained for guns and they rock
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Tom Gunn
Caldari North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.05.21 13:53:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 20/05/2007 10:25:42
Originally by: Spacer John So missiles do good dps vs guns, but only at a range where missiles are almost useless due to travel time?
No. It means that missiles need something to hold their target, mobile/interdictor bubble or tackler and have in exchange considerably higher range dps than other weapons.
And this is exactly the tactic corps like Burn Eden are using. A dictor and a few "sniper" ravens.
And, unless you are talking about big fleet battles or popping shuttles you need a tackling strategy for gun-snipers as well because they won't kill much otherwise.
Regarding fleet ops - the problem there is, as said a few times already, the dps. Let's say they boost the missile speed so much that they are viable in big fleet ops. But there are two problem there:
- the raven does 450 dps with t1 cruises & 3 damage mods - the mega does 350 dps with t2 ammo and 3 damage mods
- the raven does only have to fit 2 sensor boosters to get sniper ranges - the mega has to fit 2 SB and 3 tracking comps
Who in his right mind would fly a mega then?
I agree completely,
My solution to this would be to double the velocity of T2 precision missiles without any reduction in flight time (its already half of T1), and also add a 10% increase in velocity 10% reduction in flight time to BCS units (or alternatively add another module that just increases missile/torp velocity).
The DPS figures would then be 350 vs 404 (as T2 cruise missiles do less dps than T1).
However, even at a 180km engagment range it would still take around 10sec for a raven's missiles to hit their target, compared to the mega which will of had a few shots.
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Ashaz
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Posted - 2007.05.21 14:13:00 -
[147]
Edited by: Ashaz on 21/05/2007 14:15:39
Originally by: Lab Ratta
This was a nice try but what you also forget is the simple fact guns fire faster than missiles....about 2 to 1.....so then using your numbers you see how gimped missile damage is.
Ok. let me _try_ to make it clearer for you. it says DPS. D P S. That translates to Damage Per Second. rate of fire has already been factored in.
Quote:
I would be curious to see how a ship with 8 guns firing at twice the speed of the 6 missile launchers would put out less damage.
cause the missiles do a heck of alot more dammage per hit. I have a million sp in gunnery. my small railguns do about 40 per hit. And that's T2 rails with T2 ammo. I have 75000 in missiles. My light missiles do 120 per hit.
You want a viable pvp boat? Try a drake.
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.05.21 14:29:00 -
[148]
Granted that missiles are close to useless in long range combat, ever race has a gunboat to use for long range encounters.
I dont fly my Abaddon to kill people at 10-20km, I use it to kill people from 150-180km+
Missile ships are ment for closer range. You can spam javalin torps 200km+ with rigs, but whats to stop someone warping off then back in again? Not practical at long range.
Thats the issue you need to look at first. I dont complain that my drones dont hit at 250km, because I dont expect them to.
Missiles in pvp are not useless. My patented Shield Tanked Launcher Curse has stayed alive purely because of its t2 launchers. But then again, I know where and when a certain ship is needed and I use the apporitate one then, rather than moan about ccp changing game mechanics to suit the ship I am using.
And before you talk about SP invested in missiles, I have invested in t2 Torps, T2 Curse, T2 Heavy etc etc etc. Yet I dont moan on the forums - I adapt --
Billion Isk Mission |
Tommy Vercetti
Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.21 14:48:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Lab Ratta Do try to get your facts straight once in a while.
You have no clue mate. Have you ever shot a long range turret before? Me thinks you haven't judging from some of the drivel you've posted here.
In fact I'm thinking your someones alt posting here for laughs. Surely you aren't serious.
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Tom Gunn
Caldari North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.05.21 14:57:00 -
[150]
The problem with missile boats is that there isn't a missile boats suited for long range and there isn't one suited for close range.
I can 'adapt' my hybrid ships and fit them with blasters or rails for close or long range.
I can 'adapt' my projectile ships and fit them with autocannons or artillary for close or long range.
I can 'adapt' my laser ships the same way.
What I can not do, is adapt my 'missile' skills to be close to effective as a ship equipped in a similar role.
A blasterthron/dominix/armageddon is always going to be preferred over a raven at close range because their dps is far greater.
A sniperthron/tempest/rokh is much better at long range because they don't have to wait 20 seconds to hit their target following a lock.
The 'midslot' tank further complicates matters at close range for reasons anyone's whos read this far is aware of. The tank soon disappears when you fit an MWD/Cap Injector - add a scram and your 3 midslots don't leave a whole lotta room.
In PvP, missile ships have no real 'role' that they are on par with gunnery boats (Which as much as the OP is pulling figures out of her hat, is the point they are making - and a valid one).
At low skill points, i'd agree that the missile ships have a bonus when it comes to NPCering, but once you reach T2 guns & heavy drones in a mega, you can chew up rats easily enough as well.
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