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Linnth
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Posted - 2007.05.19 04:12:00 -
[1]
For small gang pvp, which would you use? (Anti-pirate/ratters) Pros and cons? Pilgrim would be nicedue to cloaking, but curse has range... Any thoughts?
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Rehmes
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Posted - 2007.05.19 04:31:00 -
[2]
I do not fly them but my understanding is that the curse is best for gangs while the pilgrim is better for solo work. The reasoning being that the pilgrim can tank better and deal more dmg, while the curse can suck dry people at insane speeds yet lacks the other 2 (though not by a lot i hear). Since you stated gangs id say go for the curse. Perhaps someone w hands-on experience can guide you better but i hope this helps.
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Spy4Hire
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Posted - 2007.05.19 05:31:00 -
[3]
BOTH of these monsters can be stand up evil in 1v1 engagements if set up well.
I haven't flown them heavily, but my limited experience leaves me amazed. If you set them up all or nothing (drone boats & all NOS/Neuts) you can shut down darn near anything up to BC size in short order. With a curse you can set orbit at 24k (T2 disruptor range), suck dry the target while your drones chew them up. 2x 24k scrams, 2x damps, MWD, and web put considerable pain on a large number of ships.
Problem there is: no more drones = no more damage.
For my curse I've tried 2x Diminishing & 3x T2 assault missile launchers (since neither curse nor pilgrim gets any sort of high-slot damage bonus and lack the 50% reduction in energy use for lasers). Coupled with a good collection of drones I've been able to rip apart short-range battlecruisers in relatively short order if their friends don't chase me away. Even if your drones go pop you can put a serious hurt on frigs/dessies with just those launchers.
In your lows it seems the standard arangement is 2x T2 med reppers & speed setup. I use a 400mm plate & energized thermal plate II. Not as fast as many curses, but still quite good.
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Kruel
Save our Souls
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Posted - 2007.05.19 06:20:00 -
[4]
When set up for speed, the Curse has the luxury of taking on multiple targets and easily escaping when the odds are unfavorable. When you engage with the Pilgrim, you're pretty much committed to the fight. Sneaking around is fun though, and it has it's uses, especially for scouting.
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king jks
Infinitus Odium
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Posted - 2007.05.19 08:27:00 -
[5]
Pilgrim will always be the up close in your face type ship, solo or gang work here.
Curse you have a number of options: Armor tanked, shield tanked, speed fit.
Armor tank is the particular variety I use since I am able to still have a tank + have all 6 mids for ewar.
Shield tank means you have no ewar, but with an experimental setup on sisi I tanked an eos and 2 drakes sustained with a shield tanking curse, that is until I sucked all 3 of them dry and I died.
Speed fit means you use lows and rigs for speed, and either fit ewar or a shield tank in the mids along with a MWD and a disruptor. I've had very good success with this particular version on sisi, however, I would never use it on sisi. The ewar version typically has 3x sensor damps, which is fine if you're fighting one target, but if you have more than one, it gets hairy. Shield tanked means you generally can't fit an injector (I always fit one on nanoships, they've saved my life many a time) or you have to use a medium booster II, in which case you might as well not have a tank at all.
Take your pick.
Oh, and for pilgrims, I like the MAR+800mm plate setup myself.
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BOBHOPE
Black Omega Security GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.05.19 10:03:00 -
[6]
all boils down to your fighting style and your wingmates.....
if you have patience go for pilgrim
if you like guerilla warfare, go for curse.
imo curse though, i've had many fights heavily outnumbered and with the correct fitting and skills you will have way more fun in a curse, just need to feel for what your fighting :)
/me salutes
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Ryysa
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.05.19 10:15:00 -
[7]
Speedfitted curse is way better than pilgrim... Unless you want to grief a npc ratter by staying afk cloaked in his system all the time...
And err @ king jks, give it up with your armortanked curse posts already. You agreed yourself that the only thing it's good for is to be able to take some damage from sentries.
Speedtanked curse kinda wipes the floor with any armortank variety in multiple target situations. Depends on targets ofcourse, but speedtanked curse will always be able to handle more targets than an armortanked one. If you say otherwise, you just have no idea how to fly a speedtanked ship properly :)
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Butter Dog
The Littlest Hobos Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.05.19 11:49:00 -
[8]
They are both good, in different ways. For gangs I would say curse.
For solo, try this pilgrim setup (its VERY tight)
* 1 x cloak, 2 x Medium Diminishing Nos, 1 x Small Nos II * Scram, Web, 2 x Damps, 1 x Cetus ECM Burst * Med Rep II, 1600 rolled tungsten, EANM II x 2, Damage Control (IFFA)
Basically move up cloaked to target, decloak, turn everything on... and wait until they die
Very nice solo against BS - the Cetus breaks lock, damps slow down the relock, they lose most of their DPS. You also get 7500 armor with good resists. Its quite a beast. ---------- signature removed - please do not discuss moderation in your signature graphic - Jacques([email protected])
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Ms Freak
Amarr NCN Corp Chaos Incarnate.
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Posted - 2007.05.19 12:02:00 -
[9]
I like this on my Curse:
4 Medium Dimi Nos, 1 T2 Medium Pulse (T2 Ammo) 10mn AB II, Fleeting Web, WD II (24km Scram), 2 Sensor Damp II, 1 Tracking Disruptor II 2 MAR II, 1 Thermal ENM, 1 EANM
2 Sensor Damp Effectiveness Rigs (Inverted something or other)
5 Small T2 Drones (Assorted) 5 Medium T2 Drones (Assorted)
I've taken Ravens, Megas, all sorts 1v1 and plenty of 2v1, 3v1 fights against cruisers and BC.
Haven't flown a pilgrim because i fail to see how it can be better than the above setup?? But thats probably more personal choise than anything else.
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Segmentor
Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.05.19 12:13:00 -
[10]
General purpose Pilgrim would be:
3x nos 1x cloak
1x 10mn MWD II 2x TD II / Muon SD 1x Web 1x WD II
1x MAR II 1x 800mm RT 2x EANM II 1x DCU II
For fleet recon purpose, switch 2 nos out for a cyno generator and a scan prober, and then fiddle around with upgrading the plate.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.19 13:26:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Segmentor 2x TD II / Muon SD
You do not really need to bother with only 2 damps without an ecm burst (or an falcon gangmate) because they will do nothing to help the pilgrim.
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Marquis Dean
Demise and Vestige 9th Fleet
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Posted - 2007.05.19 14:43:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Segmentor 2x TD II / Muon SD
You do not really need to bother with only 2 damps without an ecm burst (or an falcon gangmate) because they will do nothing to help the pilgrim.
Noob alert!
---
Originally by: korrey Marquis I have to admit, without you there wouldn't be much laughter in these forums.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.19 15:18:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Marquis Dean Noob alert!
What? Please tell me what the advantage there is for a pilgrim with 2 damps? It has only a nos range of 12k with its nosses, you know? 2 damps with lvl 4 in the spec are a range reduction to 0.205, that won't even bring a BC below that, let alone battleships.
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Tisanta
Amarr The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.05.19 15:23:00 -
[14]
Pilgrim is an amazing little ship, i love uncloakin next to people to ruin their day. If u like gang low sec antipiraacy i would recommend the pilgrim. If u intend on scouting finding targets before your main gang comes along, pilgrim can sure as hell hold its own untill ur m8s arrive. Pilgrim has served me well, took on pest and mealstrom in a belt together, poor bastards both had arty so 1 by 1 I keeled them.
if you intend on just support letting ur m8s do the tackling fit ur mids all out EW, TD's damps w/e u fancy. Curse is also ideal for capital ship killing, fit 2 nos 3 nuets, get a few going and no cap for the capital
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Captain Crimson
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Posted - 2007.05.19 15:51:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Tisanta Pilgrim is an amazing little ship, i love uncloakin next to people to ruin their day. If u like gang low sec antipiraacy i would recommend the pilgrim. If u intend on scouting finding targets before your main gang comes along, pilgrim can sure as hell hold its own untill ur m8s arrive. Pilgrim has served me well, took on pest and mealstrom in a belt together, poor bastards both had arty so 1 by 1 I keeled them.
if you intend on just support letting ur m8s do the tackling fit ur mids all out EW, TD's damps w/e u fancy. Curse is also ideal for capital ship killing, fit 2 nos 3 nuets, get a few going and no cap for the capital
A curse as a nos boat versus capitals? oh dear...
Originally by: Tuxford I have already expressed my personal opinion on this and it was very positive (something about happy in the pants).
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.19 16:16:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Aramendel on 19/05/2007 16:15:08 It's not bad actually, thats 11.4 heavy nosses. And 100% sustainable till the enemy capital runs out of cap. Although I would prefer 3 nos 2 neut since that allows you to permarun a MWD which makes you with a speedfit pretty much invulnerable vs fighters.
My curse solo tackled 3 carriers so far for a good while till the cavallery arrived (only one at a time of cource ).
The only danger are carriers with a good fitting, read 2 sensorboosters and officer webs.
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Djerin
Obsidian Exploration Services
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Posted - 2007.05.19 16:42:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Marquis Dean Noob alert!
What? Please tell me what the advantage there is for a pilgrim with 2 damps? It has only a nos range of 12k with its nosses, you know? 2 damps with lvl 4 in the spec are a range reduction to 0.205, that won't even bring a BC below that, let alone battleships.
What are you calculating there?!
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ReePeR McAllem
The Carebear Stare
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Posted - 2007.05.19 17:22:00 -
[18]
Edited by: ReePeR McAllem on 19/05/2007 17:20:30 Back to the thread...
My pvp ship of choice is the curse. I have recon lvl 4 and use the speed damp curse choice.
However, recently the curse has become boring. Same thing every fight: target > Set-orbit 20km > engage all mods > let loose the drones.
It gets lame. Fast.
So im now skilling for cloaking 4 to be able to use the t2 covert ops cloak on the awesome pilgrim. God the thought of having a cloak and a tank, with the amarr recon bonus to nos is tantalising. Just being able to uncloak right on the target, having to plan, use stealth and everything, jeez can't wait.
The curse is pvp on easy mode.
The pilgrim is pvp in think mode.
I know which I'll prefer.
Ed. Typo
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.19 17:36:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Aramendel on 19/05/2007 17:41:03
Originally by: Djerin What are you calculating there?!
Damp target range reduction.
Base damp stat is -48%, which gives us a target sensor range of 52% of the original or a 0.52 multiplier. With lvl 4 in the damp spec skill this is reduced by 20%, so 0.52 * 0.8 -> 0.416. Or -58.4%. If you use 2 damps the 2nd has the first stacking penality, which is an efficiency reduction to 87%, so -58.4% * 0.87 -> -50.808%. Or a target range multiplier of 0.49192.
So it's 0.416 * 0.4912 -> 0.2046. So for example a prophecy with lvl 4 long range targeting will have a targeting range after damps of 50k * 1.2 (LRT 4) * 0.2046 (2 t2/muon damps with lvl 4 in the spec) -> 12.28k
(disclaimer: in case you now want to answer "They do not work like that because it sounds strange." They do. Test it if you do not believe me.)
Originally by: ReePeR McAllem The nano damp curse is pvp on easy mode.
The pilgrim is pvp in think mode.
Minor fix. But I agree.
Maybe I should use my pilgrim more. But I am an efficiency slave, I just do not feel good when I am not using that which gives me the best results.
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Djerin
Obsidian Exploration Services
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Posted - 2007.05.19 19:23:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Aramendel stacking penality
That is answering my question completly. Dang i tend to miss that one. :P
But still i think this doesn't render them damps useless. You cannot nos there but you can hit him hard. He could only try to get rid of your drones. But then again he'd have to target like i don't know - 2 minutes? If you pull them back to orbit once a minute he wont get a lock either. I think that's a viable use for them damps.
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Tisanta
Amarr The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.05.19 19:32:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Captain Crimson
Originally by: Tisanta Pilgrim is an amazing little ship, i love uncloakin next to people to ruin their day. If u like gang low sec antipiraacy i would recommend the pilgrim. If u intend on scouting finding targets before your main gang comes along, pilgrim can sure as hell hold its own untill ur m8s arrive. Pilgrim has served me well, took on pest and mealstrom in a belt together, poor bastards both had arty so 1 by 1 I keeled them.
if you intend on just support letting ur m8s do the tackling fit ur mids all out EW, TD's damps w/e u fancy. Curse is also ideal for capital ship killing, fit 2 nos 3 nuets, get a few going and no cap for the capital
A curse as a nos boat versus capitals? oh dear...
seems we have a thinker here.... no **** i am not soloing a cap ship in a curse, the nos on one curse is insufficient but several curses is an ideal thing to have. i was not singleing it out as a omgwtfcapkiller jsut stating some of its uses. gtfo
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.19 20:12:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Djerin But still i think this doesn't render them damps useless. You cannot nos there but you can hit him hard. He could only try to get rid of your drones. But then again he'd have to target like i don't know - 2 minutes? If you pull them back to orbit once a minute he wont get a lock either. I think that's a viable use for them damps.
Well, not useless. Only a very very ineffective setup. Those "2 damps" were on a setup with a MWD, a WD and a WEB. Which is *really* useful when you have to stay out of web range
And without nos the drones do not hit very hard really. 235 dps from 5 hammer2 is not exactly the world. With a halfway decent tank a BS can easily permatank that actually. A pilgrim (and curse) need it's nos to break enemy tanks.
Sooo..we have a pilgrim which has a web, but cannot web anything, has nosses, but cannot use them AND in case the target actually remembers to move the pilgrim will probably run out of cap *before* it
Worst. Pilgrim. Setup. Ever. And its only not the worst recon to use such a setup because the falcon will do even worse with it.
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Djerin
Obsidian Exploration Services
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Posted - 2007.05.19 20:20:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Aramendel Pilgrim
Holy sh*t. I thought we were talking about Curse. I was wondering about the nos range but i didn't look it up. I shouldn't discuss ships i don't actually use. Sry...
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.19 20:31:00 -
[24]
Yes, 2 damps on a cruse are perfectly viable. Although I really prefer 3 since they allow you to attack BSs with a sensorbooster and even carriers. For the latter you'll need obviously help to bring it down, but you can solo tackle it.
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Xequecal
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Posted - 2007.05.19 21:28:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Aramendel Yes, 2 damps on a cruse are perfectly viable. Although I really prefer 3 since they allow you to attack BSs with a sensorbooster and even carriers. For the latter you'll need obviously help to bring it down, but you can solo tackle it.
I really don't get the point of 3 damps on a Curse. Even if they have boosters, they're not going to be able to kill you before they run out of cap and their boosters go away.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.19 21:57:00 -
[26]
And how your are gonna tank them? By permanent speedtanking? Won't work, if they have any clue they will use up all the cap from a booster charge and you won't get any real amount there.
Once the run out of cap it's basically how good they can tank you with their boosters and how good the curse can tank them with only it's own cap recharge. It cannot sustain a MWD and a warp dis. It can sustain 3 damps and a warp dis.
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Xequecal
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Posted - 2007.05.19 22:22:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Aramendel And how your are gonna tank them? By permanent speedtanking? Won't work, if they have any clue they will use up all the cap from a booster charge and you won't get any real amount there.
Once the run out of cap it's basically how good they can tank you with their boosters and how good the curse can tank them with only it's own cap recharge. It cannot sustain a MWD and a warp dis. It can sustain 3 damps and a warp dis.
The second their boosters shut off, they lose lock on you. They then have to retarget you. That means they won't be putting out much damage. Very few people are going to be good enough at coordinating modules to time their sensor booster cycles in tandem with their cap booster firing so the sensor boosters always have power.
3 damps is better ONLY against targets that have a single sensor booster. If they have 2+ boosters you're better off with two, if they have no boosters you're better off with two.
I really think a thermal hardener over the third booster is far superior, as most people use thermal drones and you will have to deal with the target's drones on a regular basis.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.19 22:33:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Aramendel on 19/05/2007 22:32:19
Originally by: Xequecal The second their boosters shut off, they lose lock on you.
10 cap every 20 sec is not that difficult to hold even withnosses on you.
Quote: 3 damps is better ONLY against targets that have a single sensor booster. If they have 2+ boosters you're better off with two, if they have no boosters you're better off with two.
It also increases the time they need to target your drones and the max range where they can target them which makes juggling with attack-return to orbit to avoid them getting killed a good deal easier.
And 3 damps can actually disable most BCs with 2 SBs and a few BSs too.
Quote: I really think a thermal hardener over the third booster is far superior, as most people use thermal drones and you will have to deal with the target's drones on a regular basis.
The drone aggro will happens mainly when you dampen them first. At this stage it is no problem at all to avoid them by speedtanking them. The only thermal drones which should catch there you are hobgoblins (and even these won't get you if you have snakes) and killing those off before they get through your shield is a rather minor problem. And warrior2 are far more common as lights anyway.
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Segmentor
Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.05.20 10:32:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Djerin But still i think this doesn't render them damps useless. You cannot nos there but you can hit him hard. He could only try to get rid of your drones. But then again he'd have to target like i don't know - 2 minutes? If you pull them back to orbit once a minute he wont get a lock either. I think that's a viable use for them damps.
Well, not useless. Only a very very ineffective setup. Those "2 damps" were on a setup with a MWD, a WD and a WEB. Which is *really* useful when you have to stay out of web range
And without nos the drones do not hit very hard really. 235 dps from 5 hammer2 is not exactly the world. With a halfway decent tank a BS can easily permatank that actually. A pilgrim (and curse) need it's nos to break enemy tanks.
Sooo..we have a pilgrim which has a web, but cannot web anything, has nosses, but cannot use them AND in case the target actually remembers to move the pilgrim will probably run out of cap *before* it
Worst. Pilgrim. Setup. Ever. And its only not the worst recon to use such a setup because the falcon will do even worse with it.
Whoa, whoa, who said i was going to stay out of webbing range with that setup? You know, there's one thing ppl tend to forget about amarr recons: they actually can tank stuff, instead of being a ***** with nanos.
The 2 damps would be there mainly to protect my drones and keep scooping them if the opponent decides to hurt them instead. I don't like ECM bursts, because they are chance based and just don't work in certain conditions, while damps are reliable and always cripple an unprepared target's scan resolution.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.20 12:44:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Aramendel on 20/05/2007 12:45:05
Originally by: Segmentor Whoa, whoa, who said i was going to stay out of webbing range with that setup?
Where did I say that you said it? Djerin said it.
Quote: You know, there's one thing ppl tend to forget about amarr recons: they actually can tank stuff, instead of being a ***** with nanos.
Just because the one-eyed is king of the blind it does not mean that he will win a sniping contest.
I have a pilgrim with a faction tank and I can definately permatank a raven. As long as I have cap from him, that is. A blasterthron or an AC-pest or even a brutix, though.. not a chance. Not without disableing them somewhat. And vs anything with a cap injector you will loose the who outtanks who game as well.
The pilgrims tank is great to avoid getting killed quickly when your target manages to bypass your defences, but it is in no way able to continiously tank real dps.
The protection damps provide your drones is nice, but it is in the end only a secondary effect and in no way justifies using 2 med slots for that.
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