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Shin Mai
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Posted - 2007.05.14 11:50:00 -
[1]
Not everyone wants to do missions in low sec, so why not place some lvl 5 agents in highsec, but the missions can only be done solo, not in a team thats the difference to low sec... to place whole eve in low sec isnt a good idea i think... (sry for the bad english)
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Hectaire Glade
Forum Jockey
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Posted - 2007.05.14 12:04:00 -
[2]
Although I agree with your sentiment, people who want to live in high sec are slowely but surely being bored out of the game, everything in high sec is a poor cousin to low sec or 0.0 and the trend seems to be accelerating.
Exploration rewards are a prime example of this, anything in high sec isnt worth the time to scan for it.
The part-time empire dwelling player is not welcome in this game, the interesting/challenging PVE content is all going 0.4 and below, where the risk does not equal the reward for the casual player.
Putting lev 5 agents in high sec but with significantly reduced mission rewards would not be a bad thing, imho, atleast it would provide something interesting to do in gangs of friends which would not wreck the economy.
Before EVE I used to play DAOC, a game where going into the PVP combat areas often required you to find a group, this meant that guilds/corps had to be significantly sized or very well time co-ordinated to play together, or you ended up joining a pick-up group, eitherway, it ended up in taking 1-2 hours of time to form up BEFORE going to PVP, which would last about the same duration. right now I don't have 4 hour blocks to play this game, as I suspect is the case for many of the 30something with-family game players in EVE.
Requiring gangs of players to run the highest level content is fine, but moving it to low sec means its not safe/advisible to go random pick-up group, thats the problem with the new missions which will leave them relatively under-utilized.
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El'essar Viocragh
Minmatar FSK23
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Posted - 2007.05.14 12:05:00 -
[3]
Not everyone wants to mine jaspet in lowsec, yet there is none in hisec. Go figure.
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2007.05.14 12:06:00 -
[4]
Bad idea.
Low sec needs something unique and currently lev 5 to 7 missions seems to be that planned 'unique' content. Besides it would tip scales too heavily towards high sec empire profitablity so that it would surpass average 0.0 profitablity.
It is already possible to earn approx the same amount as average 0.0 in lower end high sec assuming you have very expencive setup and maxsed skills.
Only way I see it happening reasonably is if those deadspace areas where lev 5 to 7 happen (assuming in high sec) would also be 'PvP zones'.
And Yes, I do run missions as my main income to fund my toys in EVE.
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MuffinsRevenger
EmpiresMod
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Posted - 2007.05.15 07:35:00 -
[5]
There is one big problems with lvl5's in lowsec
it's not that they are in lowsec and easy to scan out it's not that a PVE fitted ship that will just barely keep you alive will die horribly to anny PVP fitted ship it's not that the NPC's both warpscramble, nos and use insane amounts of other EW together with incredible damage
the reason is that the agents are far to easy to camp imagine highly specilised PVE ships undocking from one station to take on somthing along the lines of... well, lets say amarr fleet... and 5 nos dominixes camping the station with berzerkers and whatnot
the EM/THERM specilised ships would be dead before they even saw what was going on
As long as lvl5 agents are few and only accesible from a few station it is not going to be viable for the majority of eve to even atempt trying them out, witch is sad seeing as they would otherwise be fairly intresting |
Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2007.05.15 07:47:00 -
[6]
It is easy to escape station camps in non 0.0 space as you have 30 second invunerability timer (where ships trying to bump you just pass thru you) so you can wait till your screen loads and use insta undock bookmark while your speed is still 80%. For some bizarre reason in 0.0 they CAN bump you during invunerability timer. At least it was so approx 1 year ago.
But yes. Low sec has it's problems and until those problems are there I will not run missions there. Main problem as mentioned is difference between pve and pvp setups and the issue of non target switching NPC's where incoming gangkers do not need to tank NPC's.
Second issue is risk vs reward, but thats where higher level missions are supposed to come in. Currently I will earn more running missions in lower end high sec in faction fitted CNR than I would in low sec running them in T2 fitted Raven. Running them in low sec in faction fitted CNR is not cost effective as rewards are not good enough to justify that high risk. After those missions get implemented then I will see if they are worth of 'pvp risk' and/or worth poking them in t2 fitted regular ravens (as that rule of thumb goes dont fly what you cant afford and I do not see myself capable of affording navy ravens too often).
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Sanzorz
Amarr EVEfan.dk
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Posted - 2007.05.15 08:01:00 -
[7]
I don't see the reason for missions in lowsec. If the level 5 agents only are few, you'll have to fly around with a pvp fitting in those missions and I doubt that's gonna work if level 5 is tougher than level 4...unless level 5 is gang missions ofcourse.
The issues are the damn probing people flying into a sector and destroying your mission objective. Not that I've experienced it, but I've heard about it. It might put some life into lowsec, but is there really any reason for making those brim with life, when we carebears decide to rat a bit? :-P --- Currently flying a PvE geared Crusader and Prophecy |
Gladiator Jonny
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Posted - 2007.05.15 08:22:00 -
[8]
Damn carebears.
if they get their was this time ill cry.
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2007.05.15 08:33:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Gladiator Jonny Damn carebears.
if they get their was this time ill cry.
It is just matter of risk versus reward. It is not reasonable to risk 3 bil to gain 5..25 mil ( ~120+ missions) if there is high probability that during that timeframe you will get scanned out and there is pvp attempt on you (with good propability of sucsess under current game mecaniks).
It's also just matter of number crunching to figure out your rewards in 'affordable' setup, take into account proability of loss and compare it with other figure where setup is more expencive and proability of loss is smaller.
Only some missionrunners run them for fun (hell some people even find mining fun). Bulk of the missionrunner do them to fund their other activities in EVE.
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MuffinsRevenger
EmpiresMod
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Posted - 2007.05.15 09:37:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Gladiator Jonny Damn carebears.
if they get their was this time ill cry.
I'd bemore then happy to see you taking on This while i noss-damp-scram your poor behind with my curse ^_^
After that we can start talking about carebears :D |
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Sanzorz
Amarr EVEfan.dk
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Posted - 2007.05.15 10:29:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Gladiator Jonny Damn carebears.
if they get their was this time ill cry.
Not all of us can be arsed to risk our well earned ships, as we don't play this game 24/7 like some others. --- Currently flying a PvE geared Crusader and Prophecy |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.05.15 12:26:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Carniflex Bad idea.
Low sec needs something unique and currently lev 5 to 7 missions seems to be that planned 'unique' content. Besides it would tip scales too heavily towards high sec empire profitablity so that it would surpass average 0.0 profitablity.
It is already possible to earn approx the same amount as average 0.0 in lower end high sec assuming you have very expencive setup and maxsed skills.
Only way I see it happening reasonably is if those deadspace areas where lev 5 to 7 happen (assuming in high sec) would also be 'PvP zones'.
And Yes, I do run missions as my main income to fund my toys in EVE.
Escure me, you are lamenting that:
a average player in a average area of 0.0 will get approximatly the same isk that a player with high skills, top gear and using the best agents get in high sec ?
or, to put it in another way, that a player with 10 million SP and a good cruiser can get the same isk ratting in 0.0 that a player with 20 million SP using a faction BS with T2/faction gear in missions?
The total investment for the first party is a lot less than for the second, so it is broken if the first party get more than the second.
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2007.05.15 12:57:00 -
[13]
I think current balance is ok. What I ment with 'approx same income' was approx 6 mil SP char in T2/T1 fitted battleship in true sec 0.0 to -0.6 vs over 15 mil SP character in faction/T2 fittings/ship in lower end high sec (sec +0.5 to +0.6). Only 10 mil SP and cruiser wont quite cut it, it would take a bit more SP to be THAT effective in cruiser.
Balance does not contain only isk investment as other side of the coin is risk of losing that investment. Granted 0.0 in strong alliance controlled territory on safer than low sec, but I would still consider it riskier than lower end high sec (one day they could say ... conquer that station you live in and lock you out from there or come blast the POS plus possibility of encountering bubbles and/or inefficency of either fighting hostiles or waiting them go away).
What I was lamenting about was, that IF you increase high sec mission income any more there is no real reason to be in 0.0 anymore (not to mention low sec). Like say income as good as true sec -1.0 all the while you can sport headful of +5 implants without having to consider possibility of ending in bubble with them and podded.
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Caol
The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.05.15 14:15:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Sanzorz
Originally by: Gladiator Jonny Damn carebears.
if they get their was this time ill cry.
Not all of us can be arsed to risk our well earned ships, as we don't play this game 24/7 like some others.
Then don't risk them.
Level 5 (and possible 4) will and should be in low sec. Using the arguement "I only play an hour a day so please can I have some of that level 5 mission love in empire" is fubar, earn it and go to low sec.
The arguement that mission agents will be camped is fubar, not because they won't be camped but because its easily countered by geting organised (omg, noooo, i have to talk to other players?!?!?!) and fight back against pirates/agent campers. Learn the game as well as the mission, train the right skills to be effective in PvP as well as PvE.
Low sec is not "that" bad tbh, reading this thread has made the area out to be akin to one of the lower levels of hell - it is not. Get your fingers out, group together, get a ts/vent server up, run missions together, fight back together, cyber togther...er, or whatever.
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Pia Zawa
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Posted - 2007.05.15 14:20:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Shin Mai Not everyone wants to do missions in low sec, so why not place some lvl 5 agents in highsec, but the missions can only be done solo, not in a team thats the difference to low sec... to place whole eve in low sec isnt a good idea i think... (sry for the bad english)
Have you been on sisi trying any of the test missions? If so you should know that these missions have nothing to do in high sec empire. The possible threat from mission gankers and other emobears is the least problem you will have to deal with.
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Callthetruth
Caldari Logical Logtistics
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Posted - 2007.05.15 16:18:00 -
[16]
they are capital ship and heavy factioanl = tech 2 battleship missions these level 5 missions hence they are low sec. Sorry being in low sec is a good idea
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Domosan
Caldari Incoherent Inc
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Posted - 2007.05.15 17:21:00 -
[17]
The most important thing to remember with the change to moving the new high level missions to low sec is the corresponding changes being made to low-sec space itself as proposed in those dev blogs. If you remember, the introduction of these missions will coincide with new tools to control the "lawlessness" of those low sec areas. Unfortunately, very little has been illuminated in regards to these changes, however, if done correctly, they are supposed to provide the tools necessary to do these missions. Do not forget, these new missions are not meant to be solo affairs, they are designed, I believe, to be group missions.
Whether or not the new missions are successful additions of useful content will depend upon a number of factors (certain of which are described below)
1) Agent numbers and placement. To few quality agents in dead end systems = pirate camp = mission will fail to attract mission runners. The agent location itself, being fixed in space, gives the advantage to the pirates.
2) Tools to control low sec space. Whether this means some sort of short-term sovreignty to place gate control/station control weapons, specialized contracts to allow for the special hiring of mercenary forces to protect your space from pirates or some other form will determine the risk vs reward balance
3) Tools to involve groups of players. Mission payouts and bounties need to be able to be distributed, along with loot in a method selectable by the players (equal share/random assignement among members/one player designated as handout etc)
4) Loot tables need to be updated. I for one would far prefer loot drops to bounties but more important is the ability to choose between isk and loot/salvage (certain agents are for isk, certain are for loot/salvage for example)
Regards
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Emeline Cabernet
Amarr KVA Noble Inc.
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Posted - 2007.05.15 17:48:00 -
[18]
i for 1 cant wait to kill a npc carrier or dread and find a civilian shield booster inside..
what needs to be fixed is: 1. make sure the whole gang gets lp.
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FireFoxx80
Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.05.15 18:00:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Shin Mai Not everyone wants to do missions in low sec, so why not place some lvl 5 agents in highsec, but the missions can only be done solo, not in a team thats the difference to low sec... to place whole eve in low sec isnt a good idea i think... (sry for the bad english)
Not everyone does, no.
However the vast majority of players, would abuse the small minority of agents that weren't in low-sec. Hence it would be pointless to have any in low-sec at all.
at the end of the day, Level 5 - 7 are designed to be done in a group. If your group is not good enough to fight off some other players (thus introducing you to PvP), then should you be doing the mission at all?
What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass! |
El Torrent
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.05.16 09:22:00 -
[20]
If I am in the need of ISK, I run missions. Well, I run them in low sec since close to a year. And in those few missions, where I can use a Carrier, I will use one.
Now, looking at lvl5 missions, I really do hope those are in low sec, so I can use my Carrier outside of PvP ops, in its logistical role, with not so well skilled Corp mates. I'd love, more group PVE activity, and I have high hopes for Level5 Missions.
Just put agents in low sec, please More opportinities, for both mission runners, and Pvpers (keep the system save from Pirates, or kill that faction fitted Capital Ship, or whatever...) -- Carrier sales |
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Ralara
Caldari Lilandri Foundation
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Posted - 2007.05.16 12:24:00 -
[21]
Originally by: MuffinsRevenger There is one big problems with lvl5's in lowsec
it's not that they are in lowsec and easy to scan out it's not that a PVE fitted ship that will just barely keep you alive will die horribly to anny PVP fitted ship it's not that the NPC's both warpscramble, nos and use insane amounts of other EW together with incredible damage
the reason is that the agents are far to easy to camp imagine highly specilised PVE ships undocking from one station to take on somthing along the lines of... well, lets say amarr fleet... and 5 nos dominixes camping the station with berzerkers and whatnot
the EM/THERM specilised ships would be dead before they even saw what was going on
As long as lvl5 agents are few and only accesible from a few station it is not going to be viable for the majority of eve to even atempt trying them out, witch is sad seeing as they would otherwise be fairly intresting
Build a POS.
Fly to station in pod / shuttle
Get mission
Fly to POS with ships inside the field
Get in ship
Do mission
:)
Not many people camp posses
Real men CORPSE-TANK. |
Hectaire Glade
Forum Jockey
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Posted - 2007.05.16 13:28:00 -
[22]
If it takes an hour for a gang of three to clear a level 5 mission, those three people will be sitting ducks for the first 45 minutes of that hour, why? Because ganking people who are already under fire from mission NPCs is like shooting fish in a barrel.
The mission runner is going to be running a specific damage resistant fit, without stabs etc and so will effectively be defenceless when an aggressive player warps in, add onto this the fact that the mission NPCs will not, under any circumstance change agro and your average joe mission runner, even a gang of mission runners is a sitting duck.
Add onto that the current ease of scanning/locating ships and especially drones in space and you are going to be looking at a pirate free-for-all, populated system or not. Don't forget that you will only get a small % of your missions in the agents system, so effectively the mission runners need to secure at minimum 3 systems, probably more.
What are the options for defence? Take more people? Reduces reward and increases prep time per mission. Stop missioning when an aggressive is in system? Reduces reward and wastes time. Any shiploss is going to cost you around ~20m minimum for a fully insured BS and fittings + countless hours to get a full refit, missions are going to need to be very profitable to make this worth while for the player who can't donate 5 hour blocks a day to play this. Don;t forget the risk of implant loss vs. training impact of running in a downgraded clone.
Some ability to close acceleration gates after you go through them, or maybe mine/bomb the warp in point, something, anything needs to be added to give more security. Mission runners tanking a full stage agro (as all the lev 5s have proven to be, so far) are fodder, I can testify too this after loosing several ships mid-mission in low sec because of pirate arrival.
Why can't we get content for PVE gang play in +0.5 with reduced reward vs. low sec? I don't see why its an unfair request if the reward is in line with the holy 'risk/reward' mantra. Most of the mission runners would welcome a new challenge, without having to put themselves at undue risk because of poor game mechanics on NPC aggression.
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NIkis
Minmatar W33D Corp. O X I D E
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Posted - 2007.05.16 15:40:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Hectaire Glade If it takes an hour for a gang of three to clear a level 5 mission, those three people will be sitting ducks for the first 45 minutes of that hour, why? Because ganking people who are already under fire from mission NPCs is like shooting fish in a barrel.
The mission runner is going to be running a specific damage resistant fit, without stabs etc and so will effectively be defenceless when an aggressive player warps in, add onto this the fact that the mission NPCs will not, under any circumstance change agro and your average joe mission runner, even a gang of mission runners is a sitting duck.
Add onto that the current ease of scanning/locating ships and especially drones in space and you are going to be looking at a pirate free-for-all, populated system or not. Don't forget that you will only get a small % of your missions in the agents system, so effectively the mission runners need to secure at minimum 3 systems, probably more.
What are the options for defence? Take more people? Reduces reward and increases prep time per mission. Stop missioning when an aggressive is in system? Reduces reward and wastes time. Any shiploss is going to cost you around ~20m minimum for a fully insured BS and fittings + countless hours to get a full refit, missions are going to need to be very profitable to make this worth while for the player who can't donate 5 hour blocks a day to play this. Don;t forget the risk of implant loss vs. training impact of running in a downgraded clone.
Some ability to close acceleration gates after you go through them, or maybe mine/bomb the warp in point, something, anything needs to be added to give more security. Mission runners tanking a full stage agro (as all the lev 5s have proven to be, so far) are fodder, I can testify too this after loosing several ships mid-mission in low sec because of pirate arrival.
Why can't we get content for PVE gang play in +0.5 with reduced reward vs. low sec? I don't see why its an unfair request if the reward is in line with the holy 'risk/reward' mantra. Most of the mission runners would welcome a new challenge, without having to put themselves at undue risk because of poor game mechanics on NPC aggression.
Very much agreed
There should be some lvl 5 agents in high sec aswell, with a corresponding reduction in LP/rewards (like the case for lvl 4 missions now).
It's not like level 5 agents will be so common that you can choose a system thats not pirate-infested
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Sinder Ohm
Infinite Improbability Inc Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2007.05.16 22:44:00 -
[24]
I agree making them harder to probe out but to put them in high sec is just *******s. Please dont give in to whiners
Originally by: Rawne Karrde PVP in EvE is consentual, you agree to it when you login. If you don't like it you're in the wrong game.
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Hectaire Glade
Forum Jockey
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Posted - 2007.05.17 06:53:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Sinder Ohm I agree making them harder to probe out but to put them in high sec is just *******s. Please dont give in to whiners
I don't see anyone whining, just because you may have a different opinion does not mean that other people are 'whiners', its called discussion, its healthy, and it may just lead to the long term success of the game, something we all want, no?
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Holmberg
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Posted - 2007.05.17 07:03:00 -
[26]
So lvl 5 missions will include cap ships sometimes correct? Are cap ships allowed in .5 ^.... End topic
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Hectaire Glade
Forum Jockey
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Posted - 2007.05.17 07:06:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Hectaire Glade on 17/05/2007 07:04:58
Originally by: Holmberg So lvl 5 missions will include cap ships sometimes correct? Are cap ships allowed in .5 ^.... End topic
If you mean NPCs won't be allowed cap ships in empire, i fail to see the logic, players can make cap ships in Empire (albiet in very few places since you can't anchor any NEW large construction arrays any more in high sec).
If you mean players may want to take a cap ship in to do the mission, I'm sceptical thats CCPs intention.
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Holmberg
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Posted - 2007.05.17 07:19:00 -
[28]
Well ok your right thereI don't see why CCP wouldnt allow npc cap ships in .5 ^ If they do though I am going to camp your missions anyway then my gang will warp in kill the cap ship for nice bounty and loot while your gang has agro YAR
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.05.17 09:40:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 17/05/2007 09:41:52
Originally by: Caol
Originally by: Sanzorz
Originally by: Gladiator Jonny Damn carebears.
if they get their was this time ill cry.
Not all of us can be arsed to risk our well earned ships, as we don't play this game 24/7 like some others.
Then don't risk them.
Level 5 (and possible 4) will and should be in low sec. Using the arguement "I only play an hour a day so please can I have some of that level 5 mission love in empire" is fubar, earn it and go to low sec.
The arguement that mission agents will be camped is fubar, not because they won't be camped but because its easily countered by geting organised (omg, noooo, i have to talk to other players?!?!?!) and fight back against pirates/agent campers. Learn the game as well as the mission, train the right skills to be effective in PvP as well as PvE.
Low sec is not "that" bad tbh, reading this thread has made the area out to be akin to one of the lower levels of hell - it is not. Get your fingers out, group together, get a ts/vent server up, run missions together, fight back together, cyber togther...er, or whatever.
That is not done for the usual problem of low sec:
the isk return for a group doing that is low, lower than keeping in high sec and the work involved is almost on par with living in 0.0.
So if you need to develope a structure capable of living in 0.0 to do mission in low sec, it is worth using it to live in 0.0.
All will depend on the new struments that CCP will give to secure low sec areas and the profitably of low sec missions.
[quoteRalara] Build a POS. Fly to station in pod / shuttle Get mission Fly to POS with ships inside the field Get in ship Do mission Not many people camp posses
Be podded leaving stationin shuttle; Learn the hard way how bumoing and sthealing ships out of a POS forcefield work Spend more time defending the POS than earning isk.
People camp posses with CoverOps.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.05.17 10:02:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 17/05/2007 10:01:32
Originally by: Holmberg Well ok your right thereI don't see why CCP wouldnt allow npc cap ships in .5 ^ If they do though I am going to camp your missions anyway then my gang will warp in kill the cap ship for nice bounty and loot while your gang has agro YAR
No bounty in level 5 and 6 missions, remember?
You can keep your civilian shield boster and miner I, no problem.
And on SISI so far the capship react to who attack it, so I think you will have some nice surprise.
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