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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.05.11 23:18:00 -
[1]
Enjoy
Very interesting stuff. What do you think these changes mean for public companies and investors?
Hexxx LLP - Business Consulting Services - IPO's, Business Plans, Share/Stock Pricing, and general Consulting.
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Ray McCormack
BIG
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Posted - 2007.05.11 23:45:00 -
[2]
the almighty corporation reported by Code Monkey | 2007.05.07 15:31:22 |
It is pure sex in my mind, though. Ionia will disagree, but that's because Eefrit keeps stealing all her sheep...
| Get A Loan For That Must Have Ship / Module | BMBE ISK Loans | |
Pang Grohl
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.05.11 23:48:00 -
[3]
If the export data is useful it should improve reporting through reduced workload.
I'm not sure about the shareholder tracking. I can see that it would be useful if you wanted to communicate directly and confidentially to shareholders. I could see where in the case of a corporation with shareholder employees you could identify potentially detrimental accumulations of shares. Shareholder tracking could also be used to administer shareholder benefit programs, such as, dividend reinvestment.
Si non adjuvas, noces (If you're not helping, you're hurting) |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2007.05.12 00:03:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Hexxx Very interesting stuff. What do you think these changes mean for public companies and investors?
For the really curious just hook up a rss feed reader, like thunderbird, and get to read the dev blogs almost as soon as they go up. As to the dev blog in question: WoooooooHOooooooooOOOoooOOOOO! I may have understated that btw. Division Wallets: Awesome, finally a way to segregate activites/access. One hopes that they finally insert "view market" from the orders screen. Having the transaction screen not autoload will be a definite speed enhancement. I only hope that some sort of "fetch" mechanism is also done for the orders screen. Managing 250 orders means impressive lag spikes whenever I make a change or if there's a transaction update. I'm far to excited to believe that we'll see a corp journal export. Don't want to hope to much and jinx the possibility.
The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it.
Arknox > shar with bad hair day >>> solution = suicide and spawn fresh clone :D |
Eefrit
Eve Financial Services
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Posted - 2007.05.12 00:05:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Ray McCormack Ionia will disagree, but that's because Eefrit keeps stealing all her sheep...
They are MY SHEEP dammit! how many times do I have to tell you I am stealing them back!
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.05.12 00:11:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 12/05/2007 00:09:14 Market export?
Lets just say there are already EULA-safe programs that do this
I use one for STUFF accounting; it lets me calculate dividends in about 40 seconds.
A method of doing it without using third party programs would, of course, be even better.
--23 Member--
Listen to EVE-Trance Radio! |
Ionia
Advanced Manufacturing
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Posted - 2007.05.12 02:17:00 -
[7]
I took the dev blog as an insult tbh, as you can see from my response in the thread.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2007.05.12 06:52:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Ionia I took the dev blog as an insult tbh, as you can see from my response in the thread.
Well... I'm just taking it as "about time". Some of these things we've been asking for since Beta. I'm not going to be ungrateful though. There's a ***** in that armor plate called "dead stop" in regards to such improvements. While it is there I'm going to politely grease everything that I can and try shoving it through. While I'm wishing... I'd love to be eve mailed when an order concludes. Not when cancelled, even though that's okay, but at the least whenever it concludes be it Expire or filled or emptied. Something that tells me "item" at "system" has concluded/expired. Now that would be neat and only slightly down my list of wishes.
The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it.
Arknox > shar with bad hair day >>> solution = suicide and spawn fresh clone :D |
Fizzle Fingers
Caldari Dark Matter Logistics Empire Research
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Posted - 2007.05.12 08:08:00 -
[9]
I really hope that it includes a way to export all current jobs on a pos so that you can see at a glance whats runnign and when slots are coming free as it's a pain sometimes looking through all the slots.
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Miranda Duvall
Gallente OPM Holdings
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Posted - 2007.05.12 10:20:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 12/05/2007 00:09:14 Market export?
Lets just say there are already EULA-safe programs that do this
I use one for STUFF accounting; it lets me calculate dividends in about 40 seconds.
A method of doing it without using third party programs would, of course, be even better.
Any chance you'd be willing to share this technology with us poor industry types? Or ask the developers of this tool to enter this program into the "open source third party tools community"?
I for one would love to be able to have my market orders export into excel...
My Skills -Invention HowTo |
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Marodi Julita
Sublime Captial Investments
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Posted - 2007.05.12 11:50:00 -
[11]
Finally a little bit of loving
Originally by: Ionia I took the dev blog as an insult tbh, as you can see from my response in the thread.
You take everything as an insult..
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Balogh
Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange
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Posted - 2007.05.12 12:49:00 -
[12]
Sadly, shares can only be placed in the main wallet, not in the divisions.
Unless, of course, that is simply not yet implemented on the current Singularity version. ______________________________ Real-time EVE Stock Exchange, Blog |
Ionia
Advanced Manufacturing
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Posted - 2007.05.12 13:12:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Marodi Julita Finally a little bit of loving
Originally by: Ionia I took the dev blog as an insult tbh, as you can see from my response in the thread.
You take everything as an insult..
divisional wallets with no view only role? still no share transaction logs? i thought it was rubbish tbh. it seems to me they are doing this half arsed effort to get us off their backs, they will probably go back to the pvp development for the next few years
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Robacz
Essence Trade Essence Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.05.12 13:25:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Ionia I took the dev blog as an insult tbh, as you can see from my response in the thread.
If I was a dev, I would take your reply as an insult and never bother to reply you anymore. You have no idea about their database / code structure (and therefore you don't know what reasons they have for 7 divisions), but yet you are giving him lecture in database design and programming? A bit inappropriate I think.
Also IMO just raw XML export would be fine, they shouldn't make any formatting on it - let players code their tools to format data for their specific use.
_________ Buying/Selling: Implants & Hardwirings Producing/BPCs: Mining Barges, T2 Components T2 Distribution: 8 regions covered |
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2007.05.12 14:36:00 -
[15]
The remote asset mgt and being able to place into member hangers makes me giddy with glee.
This is a major time saver for trader corps. |
Ionia
Advanced Manufacturing
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Posted - 2007.05.12 15:05:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Robacz
Originally by: Ionia I took the dev blog as an insult tbh, as you can see from my response in the thread.
If I was a dev, I would take your reply as an insult and never bother to reply you anymore. You have no idea about their database / code structure (and therefore you don't know what reasons they have for 7 divisions), but yet you are giving him lecture in database design and programming? A bit inappropriate I think.
Also IMO just raw XML export would be fine, they shouldn't make any formatting on it - let players code their tools to format data for their specific use.
I used to own and run a web development business. While I dont know the specifics, I do know the general reasoning behind it. Any developer could point them out to you.
As for not replying to me any more, that have ignored my emails for weeks. All of them were phrased in as helpful a way as possible.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2007.05.12 15:50:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Robacz You have no idea about their database / code structure (and therefore you don't know what reasons they have for 7 divisions)
The reluctance to allow dynamic hangar creation makes sense to me. This community has shown, time and time again, that given freedom to do anything, anything, they will use it to spite the game. Some of the more clever asshats will say, "Its just pvp" but the truth is its exploiting to the detriment of the game itself. (Jetcan spam, Shuttle dumping, etc., etc.) Originally by: Robacz Also IMO just raw XML export would be fine, they shouldn't make any formatting on it - let players code their tools to format data for their specific use.
Heck I could care less if it was in raw text with nothing more than ItemID's StationID's CharID's... just as long as each entry into the wallet export comes with its Transaction ID. All the other info is readily available to the community at large. (CharID's are readily available to everyone so stop freaking out. Mine is 144732859. Robacz's is 695624998)
The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it.
Arknox > shar with bad hair day >>> solution = suicide and spawn fresh clone :D |
Ezoran DuBlaidd
Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's
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Posted - 2007.05.12 17:17:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Robacz
Originally by: Ionia I took the dev blog as an insult tbh, as you can see from my response in the thread.
If I was a dev, I would take your reply as an insult and never bother to reply you anymore. You have no idea about their database / code structure (and therefore you don't know what reasons they have for 7 divisions), but yet you are giving him lecture in database design and programming? A bit inappropriate I think.
Also IMO just raw XML export would be fine, they shouldn't make any formatting on it - let players code their tools to format data for their specific use.
especially because we all know that game developers are volunteers, not paid employees. and that everyone plays eve for free, no one pays any real money to play eve.
therefore these volunteer programmers don't have any paying customers with whose ingame-happiness they should concern themselves.
oh wait...
tell me again why a game based upon corporations/shares (business type things), instead of guilds/clans/etc (established game/family type things), should consistently neglect the corporation/share/business side of the game?
in your stated opinion, you also find it perfectly acceptable that the game developers not provide everything ingame, in order to make the business-side run smoothly; but, could instead provide a half-arsed solution to issues that have been around since the game's release into retail?
i'm not sure i see the logic |
Ray McCormack
BIG
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Posted - 2007.05.12 19:46:00 -
[19]
So it's clear we won't settle for any half-arsed measures. We won't the full-whack, and we want it implemented and developed properly.
Now we just need to ensure the devs working on it are listening to the thoughts of those that will use it and benefit from it most.
| Get A Loan For That Must Have Ship / Module | BMBE ISK Loans | |
Zolcan
Amarr Sovereign Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.05.13 06:39:00 -
[20]
Great changes. The wallet divisions is nice, the exporting is great but the shareholder tracking is very nice if you do stock splits or anything similar.
Zolcan
SOVEREIGN ENTERPRISES WEBPAGE AND FORUMS
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2007.05.13 06:53:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Zolcan the shareholder tracking is very nice if you do stock splits or anything similar.
I'd actually love to see some sort of split mechanism. But in truth real fixes that are need are: Votes that account according to total shares not shares that happened to have voted and some means by which shares may be sold on the market or through contracts. Don't mean to put ESGE out of business but ... well shares used to be physical in game objects in the past. Be nice to have them become such again.
The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it.
Arknox > shar with bad hair day >>> solution = suicide and spawn fresh clone :D |
Ionia
Advanced Manufacturing
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Posted - 2007.05.13 08:35:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Zolcan the shareholder tracking is very nice if you do stock splits or anything similar.
I'd actually love to see some sort of split mechanism. But in truth real fixes that are need are: Votes that account according to total shares not shares that happened to have voted and some means by which shares may be sold on the market or through contracts. Don't mean to put ESGE out of business but ... well shares used to be physical in game objects in the past. Be nice to have them become such again.
Personally I don't see much need for splits in the current market.
Perhaps votes could show both statistics, so you get an overall idea of how people did (or did not) vote.
Shares as in game objects, at this point, is a bad idea IMO. First, if they are objects, they can get destroyed. Second, if they are objects, you wont be able to transfer them electronically, youd have to pick them up. Third, we would see a lot of scams. Remeber, shares used to be physical objects in the real world, that you had to actually trade physically, we have improved on that :)
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SencneS
Amarr Keepers of the Holy Bagel SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.14 20:41:00 -
[23]
The thing I wanted to see was the ability to assign people to a division.
This is my wish list.
1) Assign people to a division so any and all transitions they did had only happened in that division. 2) TAX actually means TAX on all Profit made by a player, not just bounty. So if someone finds a BPO and sells it for 100billion the corp gets a % of that as TAX. 3) Main Wallet Divisional TAX, each Division each week takes a % of it's wallet and tosses it into the main wallet.
Ideally what I would LOVE is a real Corporate Capital Requesting and Budget system.
Main wallet takes a % (Say 80%) of each Division's Wallet each day/week/month. If a Division wants to purchase a BPO to make itself more valuable, if it can't purchase it, it can ask for a Capital Request in which the Main wallet is used to purchase the BPO. Which becomes a Loan from the main wallet.
Directors/CEO could approve these requests, And Shares/Dividends are paid out of the main wallet. Each Division can set their own TAX Rate in which to tax their "employees"
Would be something like this.
Member kills a Rat for 1mil. Division has a set tax of 10%. 100K goes to the Division Corporation has a set tax of 80%. 80K goes to the Corp.
Member has 900K Division has 20K Corp has 80K
Take it to the next level in Alliance. Alliance has a 2% take of the Corporation Main wallet. For that 1mil bounty, the Alliance gets 1600isk.
This happens across the board on any and all players income.
Can someone say Pyramid Scheme, I think it would work quiet well in EVE.
But why would anyone want this.. For the corp to capture which division is slacking off. You could have a the following divisions
PVP Ratting Mining Marketing Manufacturing POS Operations Macros
Each one of those doing their own thing making X amount of dollars for their division. You would even assign Divisional managers.
You could even assign a budget to each. In which the ISK gets distributed out evenly.
So the corp main wallet takes 80% of all divisional wallets then once a week distributes all ISK back into the division according to Budget assigned. Say
Share holders 75% Employees 5% PVP 2% Ratting 1% Mining 1% Marketing 2% Manufacturing 4% POS Operations 10% Macros 0%
This would effect Divisions that are making a fortune as the are they are taxed at the same rate as the other divisions but all get back a % of the money they gave out.
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Send ISK to SencneS for good Kama! |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2007.05.14 21:32:00 -
[24]
Now that's a pipe dream. No way I'd be in support of most of what you've suggested here. Too much automation, too many variables, too rigid. Just because the game uses the word corporation for "groupings of players" does not mean that all such things are run ala corporation.
Many people miss that point of why there isn't more "corporate" this or that in the game. To do such things eliminates the possibilities of the "group" to be run in a negative manner... from the common perspective.
BTW your taxation is monstrous in the extreme. How is the interface supposed to track the sale of the bpo minus the purchase price? Or do you mean to tax your members for the entire sale price? So they should eat some of the purchase price and the rental fees? Too complicated an issue... which is why it isn't being done.
We are lucky that taxing of bounties is in the game at all. It did not used to be becuase of all the complications that existed in taxation.
The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it.
ElweSingollo> Eve is P v P not P v GM. |
Erfnam
Time Cube Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.05.14 21:32:00 -
[25]
Originally by: SencneS ...stuff...
If you have a corp large enough to warrant such strict divisions/strucutre, you should create a corp for each division and set appropriate taxes. Divisional managers would be CEO of their divisioned corp and pay whatever percentages you'd like towards the main corp. You're already in an alliance, so all divisions will share a communal chat channel and show as allies in local and overview.
Auto taxing of trade profits is not possible because it is nearly impossible to determine at what price an item was obtained and thus initially valued. The only option would be to have a tax rate set based upon the market order's total value, which would remove the competitive edge for a trader. Everyone is already hit with 1-2% that is lost to the void.
Example Divisional Corporate Structure (I really wanted to come up with names more than anything else)
Keepers of the Holy Bagel - Main corp. Mostly a holding/management corp that the other divisions feed a percentage of their profits. Contains all undeclared majors. Generic tax rate should be set. This division would serve as brokers for all divisions. Purchasing minerals from Drillers and selling to Bakers. Purchasing built items from the Bakers and selling them to other divisions and market. Ideally, you would make a division "Butterers of the Holy Bagel" that serves as the broker between all divisions and takes the alliance/Keepers cut when appropriate.
Drillers of the Holy Bagel - Mining division with 100% tax and 15% of minerals at time of refining (or pays miners a percentage below market value).
Bakers of the Holy Bagel - Production division with 100% tax. Sells everything internally and generates a profit by selling at above mineral prices.
Rollers of the Holy Bagel - Logistics division with 100% tax. Is paid by other divisions to move stuff around with 50% of moving fees being paid to the corp (rest is kept by hauler).
Slicer of the Holy Bagel - PvP/Mission division with 20% tax. Profits through bounties. Sales: Capital Ships | Covetors Delivered - Bulk/Package/BYOM |
Jocca Quinn
Matari BackBone
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Posted - 2007.05.15 14:00:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Jocca Quinn on 15/05/2007 14:00:15 I like what is there presently for Divisional Wallets but I have two issues.
1) Currently no ability to directly transfer isk from one wallet to another. I'm hoping that this is fairly simple to do.
2) Deliveries, the current system of access to the deliveries bin is very poor, a lot of us have been asking for either a "delivery boy" role or that the deliveries bin becomes a hangar in its own right so we can assign access how we want.
With the addition of divisions there is now a new problem. You give Trader role to people that have access to the various wallets so they can buy and sell for corp. They all now have access to the deliveries bin .. not just for the stuff they have bought but for what everyone has bought. There is no "divisionalisation" (if Ginger can make up words so can I) of the deliveries bin.
And of course there is no way of knowing who took what ..
Am I the only one that see's this as a problem none of us are free as long as one of us is chained none of us are free |
Ray McCormack
BIG
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Posted - 2007.06.20 10:48:00 -
[27]
I wanted to bump this thread to focus on a particular issue.
Quote: Shares You will finally be able to see who owns shares in your corporation! After Rev 2 we will put some work into the whole shares system but this is certainly a change in the right direction.
The simplest and possibly easiest function to implement (there's a Journal ID for it already) would be a transaction log for shares.
| WTS Archons and Nidhoggurs | BMBE ISK Loans | |
Balogh
Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange
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Posted - 2007.06.20 13:29:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Ray McCormack I wanted to bump this thread to focus on a particular issue.
Quote: Shares You will finally be able to see who owns shares in your corporation! After Rev 2 we will put some work into the whole shares system but this is certainly a change in the right direction.
The simplest and possibly easiest function to implement (there's a Journal ID for it already) would be a transaction log for shares.
I'm also disappointed shares can only go into the master wallet, instead of in divisions as well. ______________________________ Real-time EVE Stock Exchange, Blog |
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