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Roy Batty68
Caldari Immortal Dead
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Posted - 2007.05.03 23:45:00 -
[1]
There's several trends that have me a bit depressed about the future of Eve.
- People posting OMG NERF! at the drop of a hat. Since the WCS nerf we seem to have had several Noise on the Forums = Soon Nerf in the Game situations. WCS, ECM, Istabs... now nos and cloaks are on the Noise side of that equation.
I'm not saying that these nerfs weren't justified, I just find the increasing player mentality of "if I don't like it, I just yell nerf on the forums and all shall be well" to be very annoying and a rather uninteresting approach to in game problems.
- CCP dumbing things down like probes post kali. There's a difference between making an intuitive interface and taking all the complexity out of a task. Training a skill for weeks followed by simply spaming button clicks does not equate to a feeling of accomplishment. Nor much opportunity to stand out in the crowd.
Sure, the basics of Eve should be readily accessible to the new player. That doesn't mean that all of it should be idiot proof. Granted, there are still things in the game where a players skill can make all the difference. I would hate to see those phased out as well.
- Players replacing the need for other players via alts. Granted this is something that can't be totally combated, nor necessarily should. But there are ways of ensuring that it's not likely that one can ever do it all with an army of alts.
So, with those things in mind, here's my simple plea:
Keep throwing new tools in the sandbox as an answer to our gripes.
That's it. Pretty simple, no?
- Don't nerf things. Throw in new alternative modules and skills that can be used as a counter to whatever the fotm ZOMG issue is. - Don't worry about how many alts people have. Try and overwhelm us with opportunities for specializations. - Be protective of the specializations and mini-professions already in game when adding new content. The more varied the areas where a player can establish themself in a niche role the better. - Don't spend too much time trying to simplify interfaces, players will figure things out. And with that they will become the pros that other players turn to.
Give us new methods to solve our constant "OMG Nerf It" problems. Make us players work to solve these issues by simply giving us new tools with which to do it. Not by holding our hand while you simply chop the legs off the latest gripe.
Bottom line is, one month into this game I was amazed at the seemingly endless possibilities. Now at nearly my one year anniversary, that feeling is fading fast. I want that sense of wonder back. I want to be overwhelmed by potential and complexity again.
CCP, please turn the ship around. And ffs stop this culture of endless nerf calling by responding in ways people aren't expecting. Make us be more careful about what we ask to nerf.
------------------- Say What? |
Blind Man
Kemono.
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Posted - 2007.05.03 23:57:00 -
[2]
I don't really care how complicated something is as long as we get an explanation of how it's intended to work
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Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2007.05.04 00:28:00 -
[3]
Complicated maybe, complex definatelly, charisma attribute anyone, skills in this area perhaps?
Also Known As |
Dez Erichs
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.04 00:31:00 -
[4]
You have some great points and I agree with many of them.
The key problem with making Eve more complicated is that it is very imposing to new players. It's not in CCPs best interest to make the game more complicated. However, perhaps it caters to a certain part of the population like you and I, who really enjoy the possibilities and complication. Hopefully the new manual that White Wolf is developing will help to introduce people to the game. Learning to play from the help channel and forums is not very user friendly. I was very fortunate to start out in the School of Applied Knowledge (SAK), who have many great 'old-timers' who help new players. Really what is needed is a set of manuals that are updated with the new patches so that players are on an even playing field when it comes to game mechanics. Currently, I hold a large advantage over other players due to my knowledge of game mechanics, even though I lag behind in skill points.
I have some questions for you. Do you think the nano-nerf was justified? Personally I am very pleased that it happened, battleships shouldn't be able to go 6km/sec. The fix to nanos, overdrives and istabs seems very well thought out and elegant.
Do you miss warping to 15km? I had complete sets of bookmarks for many regions, and making instas was a pain in the butt. In order to play on a level ground with other players in 0.0, WTZ instas were a necessity. I certainly don't miss them now, and they caused tons of lag.
Do you miss being sniped at from 200km by Tempests who cannot be locked down? The WCS nerf was justified, WCS do not belong on combat ships. However, I miss catching haulers all the time, and this is exactly what they are for. The previous scan probes were very hard to use, and now the role of a dedicated covops frig pilot is essential in any fleet.
I miss ECM, but it still can be effective in the right ships. With proper combinations of Ewar one can still lock down opponents, but now you cannot perma-jam people.
The changes that you are talking about mostly affect combat, and thus mostly low-sec and 0.0. They do not affect miners and mission runners as much, and I bet they are CCPs bread and butter. The 'hard-core' players want an interesting battleground in 0.0 with no clear 'I-win buttons'. Currently combat in 0.0 in blobs and massive fleet warfare just isn't that much fun, and I am enjoying the changes that are being made to encourage small fleet warfare.
With any changes, we will adapt and come up with new tactics and strategies.
If you're looking for something new, I suggest you try to start up your own corporation. My time as an officer of Agony has been very rewarding as well as lots of work. New avenues such as T2 invention, exploration in 0.0 and drug manufacturing are things you may try out as well.
Good Luck! --- PvP Training: www.agony-unleashed.com "Veni, Vidi, Caedi" |
Gladia Horusthu
Gallente Anything Inc.
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Posted - 2007.05.04 00:54:00 -
[5]
One of the key features of Eve is that it is up to the players to first investigate how to do specific things, and then to mentor newer players on tricks of the trade. A manual for Eve would confirm my growing fear that the "community" of Eve players is disintegrating. One of the things that bound together pilots despite perhaps taking forking roads in Eve was the mentoring experience. It also preserved the backdoor route to diplomacy, where perhaps a solution could be reached that didn't involve the absolute destruction of one side or another.
Of course, the current jihad against certain entities has already broken some of these links between community members. However, the mechanism to perpetuate this entirely healthy system is still there: that so much of Eve is undocumented through official channels, and that the how-to manuals aren't always accurate to the current patch.
Complexity lies at the heart of this matter.
Personally, I feel that Eve is not and should not be everything to everyone. I don't think that any game should aim at that target, because there will always be someone else who is eager to be bigger and thus willing to cater more to the indistinct collective. I think that each player should evaluate each game based on its character and how its gameplay compares to that of other games, in the opinion of that player.
Is Eve perfect? No. Are there always going to be balance issues that many will favor and others oppose? Yes. Should these balances be done to "attract more players"? Not really. Should these balances be done to foster balanced gameplay and reduce current inequities between types of gameplay? Yes, when taken into context of the theory behind the game.
I am with Roy on this, I would prefer greater complexity over lesser complexity at the higher levels. By that, I mean that it is clear that certain things are not meant to be jumped right into; exploration, for one. POS operation, for another. T2 production and invention. Anything having to do with capital ships or outposts. These things are not basic, and should not be automatically available to beginning players. Leave this upper-level gameplay complex and bewildering to get into, and let us have lots of fun trying to figure out how it is supposed to work. Then, keep it that complex and bewildering so that we can forge those mentoring relationships that (hopefully) will last beyond current employment.
And yes, this will not drive lots of people to Eve. Our servers are already under lots of stress, thank you very much. We have a practical reason as players to not want constant unchecked growth. Preservation of complexity as a psychological barrier to some players serves in this capacity, and thus is beneficial, not harmful. I know I sound like an elitist, I don't mean to be. I don't play many games because they do not appeal to me. This game should not necessarily appeal to the same crowd that plays games that don't appeal to me. Not because I don't like those people, or think less of them for having different perspectives, but because it would be the result of encroaching blandness of product.
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Krxon Blade
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.04 00:57:00 -
[6]
Signed, as long as this stays out of game, with exception of game code :)
-- <t20> WE AER GIOGN FRO MROE BREE !!!
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Gladia Horusthu
Gallente Anything Inc.
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Posted - 2007.05.04 02:04:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Krxon Blade Signed, as long as this stays out of game, with exception of game code :)
/me shudders.
I like complexity of gameplay, I don't need to know the formulae behind it.
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Roemy Schneider
Swingline LLC
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Posted - 2007.05.04 02:39:00 -
[8]
and there i thought it'd help (for example... public ME slots) if people actually knew what they were doing... (that their cap rig BPO doesnt get any better beyond ME15)
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Roy Batty68
Caldari Immortal Dead
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Posted - 2007.05.04 07:25:00 -
[9]
You asked:
Originally by: Dez Erichs
I have some questions for you. Do you think the nano-nerf was justified?...and other nerfs justified?...
But I had already said:
Originally by: Roy Batty68
I'm not saying that these nerfs weren't justified, I just find the increasing player mentality of "if I don't like it, I just yell nerf on the forums and all shall be well" to be very annoying and a rather uninteresting approach to in game problems.
It was a comment on the community's apparent mindset about solving in game difficulties, not about the specific nerfs. Rarely do you see people asking for new tools, they simply ask CCP to reduce the effectiveness of whatever it is they don't like.
My point at the end of my post is they should try to direct us away from this trend of screaming "nerf nerf nerf!" whenever something is difficult in game. The only downside to the recent nerfs is that it has lead to some people feeling like this is just another interactive aspect of the game. They holler nerf, eventually a CCP dev responds with one.
They could stiffle that somewhat by responding differently. Instead of simply stacking nerf NOS or whatever, they could create a new active defense module that somehow made NOS detrimental to the user if they weren't paying attention. Or something along those lines. Creative new tools to counter current player gripes.
That would make people a little more leary about calling for nerf so readily.
------------------- Say What? |
Del Narveux
Obsidian Angels Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.05.04 07:37:00 -
[10]
Complexity != complicated. Complexity is good, complicated is bad. Ill give an example. Currently, t2 production is complex, but not complicated. Unlike t1 where if you have a bunch of minerals from melting stuff you can **** out any ship/module/whatever with zero brain use, with t2 you have multi-tiered production tree, from moon-mined raw mats to the finished product. This is a good thing, TBH I wish t1 were more like t2 in terms of requiring a bit of thought in what you want to produce. Its not complicated because if you know what you want to do, its easy to get it done by just right clicking a bunch of stuff. Contrast that with, say, gang-related aggro flagging, where you really dont know what youre going to get until it happens. _________________ [SAK] Alumnus--And Proud Of It! -- aka Cpt Bogus Is that my torped sig cloaking your base?
Originally by: Wrangler Well, at least we have forum PvP..
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Rodge
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.05.04 07:40:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Roy Batty68 - Don't nerf things. Throw in new alternative modules and skills that can be used as a counter to whatever the fotm ZOMG issue is.
This can't be a good idea. If something is blatantly overpowered, then the only option is a nerf. If you throw in alternative modules that can beat something that's overpowered, then the new module will be overpowered by definition.
For example, how would you have handled the gankageddon? Made other ships even more powerful or gave all other ships insane tanks that couldn't be broken? Likewise, the 10k+ nanophoons. The only way to fix that without a nerf would be to make other ships even faster (!) or to give webs a big boost to range/effect (thus killing interceptors as a viable ship).
Nope, sometimes something is just too powerful and needs a nerf. To try and balance everything around something that's overpowered, just makes more things overpowered and more need for balancing.
Sig inappropriate-not eve related -Abdalion
[ 2005.04.17 00:34:30 ] Nagilam > u better leave Rodge, u will not gank any1 else 2nite......
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.05.04 07:55:00 -
[12]
I remember when i was playing a bit back in 2006, this forum was filled with "Help the noobs" "Make it easier to do stuff" "Things are too hardcore player stuff".
And now we came a full circle? Is it complete? Am I now the master?
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Roy Batty68
Caldari Immortal Dead
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Posted - 2007.05.04 08:12:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Rodge
Originally by: Roy Batty68 - Don't nerf things. Throw in new alternative modules and skills that can be used as a counter to whatever the fotm ZOMG issue is.
This can't be a good idea. If something is blatantly overpowered, then the only option is a nerf. If you throw in alternative modules that can beat something that's overpowered, then the new module will be overpowered by definition.
For example, how would you have handled the gankageddon? Made other ships even more powerful or gave all other ships insane tanks that couldn't be broken? Likewise, the 10k+ nanophoons. The only way to fix that without a nerf would be to make other ships even faster (!) or to give webs a big boost to range/effect (thus killing interceptors as a viable ship).
Nope, sometimes something is just too powerful and needs a nerf. To try and balance everything around something that's overpowered, just makes more things overpowered and more need for balancing.
Of course, when cast in that light, you are absolutely right. Perhaps I'm just forum weary...
But I do know that when you cut the effectiveness of one module, it effects more than just that one thing. Any countermeasures that may have existed take an inherent nerf as well.
ECM takes a nerf, ECCM is along for that ride and is no longer thought about as much. Nanoships nerfed, Huginn and Rapier pilots find themselves less popular. Etc.
I suppose there's a fine line in there somewhere, and I really didn't want to slog through these sorts of details. I wanted to express my feelings of the game trending in negative directions: - The game feels as if it is trending towards less complexity over time rather than more with expansions. - The community is trending towards "CCP hold our hands" sort of mentality via nerf demands. - The game feels as if there is less opportunity for specialization due to oversimplification.
As the other fellow said, complexity is good. That was the essence of what I wanted to express. I guess I'm just not good at communicating it.
------------------- Say What? |
Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.05.04 08:13:00 -
[14]
Complicated is bad. Complex is good.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |
Adaris
Dark and Light inc.
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Posted - 2007.05.04 08:15:00 -
[15]
lol you win /Adaris hands him the cookie * * * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euZ0j7vtKEQ
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Roy Batty68
Caldari Immortal Dead
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Posted - 2007.05.04 08:23:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Sheriff Jones I remember when i was playing a bit back in 2006, this forum was filled with "Help the noobs" "Make it easier to do stuff" "Things are too hardcore player stuff".
And now we came a full circle? Is it complete? Am I now the master?
Ok Darth. You may be right. The grass is always greener, etc.
Perhaps it is an inherent part of MMO communities to never be satisfied with the way things are right now. It does seem to be a constant over the different games I've played. DAoC had a constant nerf this, nerf that pendulum ride from hell. Part of that community played the general forums more than they played the game!
And there is always that, "the game has gotten worse over time" element from the veterans. Perhaps its more a reflection of human nature than the games themselves.
I don't know. I guess I need to rethink this and stop posting when I'm tired.
------------------- Say What? |
Sheriff Jones
Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.05.04 08:31:00 -
[17]
Ah there's nothing wrong in voicing an opinion and in some parts you may be right. I'm not one to judge, i just made a silly observation and managed to squeeze some lovely starwars juice from it while making a point
Posting a problem= not bad. Posting selfish requests= bad.
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Sinder Ohm
Infinite Improbability Inc Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2007.05.04 09:03:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Sinder Ohm on 04/05/2007 09:01:14 I dont mean to derail your thread but 1 trend that I have noticed is the increasing nerf to PVE rewards.
Eg: - some high sec plexes had great rewards before now they suck - you could do plexes with cap ships - there was a slight chance of finding faction spawns in the old missions - Belt rats got a stealth nerf (well I noticed one) - Belt rats could be chained - Mission rats got nerfed many times (If anyone disagress please do so in a civil manner)
I am not whining at all about these changes btw, just pointing them out.
Basically these nerfs were all done over time and those that were here before these nerfs profited greatly from the old content and some dont ever need to grind for isk again.
Then we have the newer players that have joined they have quite a disadvantage trying to make isk compared to how we had it back then.
Just my 2 isk.
Originally by: Rawne Karrde PVP in EvE is consentual, you agree to it when you login. If you don't like it you're in the wrong game.
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Mydrial Jacor
Amarr Imperial Tech Imperial Research
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Posted - 2007.05.04 09:26:00 -
[19]
My only real gripe is the number of roll-of-the-dice chance based systems that have been brought into Eve over time. Random chance having an influence is all good and well but having it being a determining factor to success is just plain annoying.
Imperial Research Services Now Available |
Ladyah Liandri
VMF-214 Blacksheep
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Posted - 2007.05.04 10:15:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Blind Man I don't really care how complicated something is as long as we get an explanation of how it's intended to work
Congratulations! To me you won this thread.
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.05.04 10:20:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Ladyah Liandri
Originally by: Blind Man I don't really care how complicated something is as long as we get an explanation of how it's intended to work
Congratulations! To me you won this thread.
What, i kinda enjoy the way things are now:
"Congratulations! HEre's your new Megapulse Laser of Death Special Midslot edition!" Hey great...how do i activate it? "This piece of equipment is the greatest ever built regarding space warfare..." So...fire...how? "If you wish to destroy your enemies with a single push of a button..." Ah, button. Maybe this red one. *ship explodes* "...don't press the red one."
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ghosttr
Amarr ARK-CORP FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.04 10:23:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Mydrial Jacor My only real gripe is the number of roll-of-the-dice chance based systems that have been brought into Eve over time. Random chance having an influence is all good and well but having it being a determining factor to success is just plain annoying.
But thats what salvaging is all about spending time rolling the dice so you can find nothing in a wreck
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Ferreus Malukar
The X-Trading Company Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2007.05.04 11:34:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Ferreus Malukar on 04/05/2007 11:31:03 Let me wholeheartedly say THANK YOU for this OP!
Finally, a truely constructive approach!
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Drizit
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.05.04 13:09:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Krxon Blade Signed, as long as this stays out of game, with exception of game code :)
The problem is that if that stays too far out of the game, Eve will start to appear in this list.
--
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Stakhanov
Shih Yang Tong
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Posted - 2007.05.04 13:14:00 -
[25]
I agree about the chance based / time sink features. Salvaging and probing really should be reworked , they feel like mining
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.05.04 15:05:00 -
[26]
they are mining.
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Grunanca
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Posted - 2007.05.04 15:09:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Roy Batty68
Long talk
/signed! Make it more complicated, not less... Dont want WoW in space here.
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Malcanis
High4Life
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Posted - 2007.05.04 15:20:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Roy Batty68 There's several trends that have me a bit depressed about the future of Eve.
- People posting OMG NERF! at the drop of a hat. Since the WCS nerf we seem to have had several Noise on the Forums = Soon Nerf in the Game situations. WCS, ECM, Istabs... now nos and cloaks are on the Noise side of that equation.
I'm not saying that these nerfs weren't justified, I just find the increasing player mentality of "if I don't like it, I just yell nerf on the forums and all shall be well" to be very annoying and a rather uninteresting approach to in game problems.
- CCP dumbing things down like probes post kali. There's a difference between making an intuitive interface and taking all the complexity out of a task. Training a skill for weeks followed by simply spaming button clicks does not equate to a feeling of accomplishment. Nor much opportunity to stand out in the crowd.
Sure, the basics of Eve should be readily accessible to the new player. That doesn't mean that all of it should be idiot proof. Granted, there are still things in the game where a players skill can make all the difference. I would hate to see those phased out as well.
- Players replacing the need for other players via alts. Granted this is something that can't be totally combated, nor necessarily should. But there are ways of ensuring that it's not likely that one can ever do it all with an army of alts.
So, with those things in mind, here's my simple plea:
Keep throwing new tools in the sandbox as an answer to our gripes.
That's it. Pretty simple, no?
- Don't nerf things. Throw in new alternative modules and skills that can be used as a counter to whatever the fotm ZOMG issue is. - Don't worry about how many alts people have. Try and overwhelm us with opportunities for specializations. - Be protective of the specializations and mini-professions already in game when adding new content. The more varied the areas where a player can establish themself in a niche role the better. - Don't spend too much time trying to simplify interfaces, players will figure things out. And with that they will become the pros that other players turn to.
Give us new methods to solve our constant "OMG Nerf It" problems. Make us players work to solve these issues by simply giving us new tools with which to do it. Not by holding our hand while you simply chop the legs off the latest gripe.
Bottom line is, one month into this game I was amazed at the seemingly endless possibilities. Now at nearly my one year anniversary, that feeling is fading fast. I want that sense of wonder back. I want to be overwhelmed by potential and complexity again.
CCP, please turn the ship around. And ffs stop this culture of endless nerf calling by responding in ways people aren't expecting. Make us be more careful about what we ask to nerf.
*CHEERING, WILD APPLAUSE*
VOTE REPLICANT '08!
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