Originally by: Ryas Nia

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The one thing i can confirm is that TSM 5 is totally broken. Level 4 works very well while level 5 is as though you are back at lvl 1. Lots of damage leaks in.

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Originally by: Ryas Nia

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The one thing i can confirm is that TSM 5 is totally broken. Level 4 works very well while level 5 is as though you are back at lvl 1. Lots of damage leaks in.

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Originally by: galadran

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While shield recharges optimally at 30-40%. Once you hit 20% your shield loses its recharge ability. So why does it matter? If your shield tank reachs 25% then your a goner. TCM extends the time in which you can run away. Whats so bad about it?

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Originally by: Drykor

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Originally by: galadran

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While shield recharges optimally at 30-40%. Once you hit 20% your shield loses its recharge ability. So why does it matter? If your shield tank reachs 25% then your a goner. TCM extends the time in which you can run away. Whats so bad about it?

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How does it extend the time? As I see it, it lowers the time, since you end up with less hp throughout the fight.

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Originally by: Drykor

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I know these topics keep popping up every now and then, unfortunately I've never seen a clear reply about it that would stop them from popping up. So a developer reply would be greatly appreciated.

Tactical Shield Manipulation, or TSM, stops damage from leaking to your armor through your shield, when it is nearly depleted. This sounds good, but if you stop and think about it, it is not. For non-critical situations such as easy missions it might be nice to not have to repair your armor, when you are in real danger however, you'll WANT that damage to leak through.

This is because your natural shield recharge is better when it still has some shield remaining, say around 30-40%. At 0% the natural recharge is really horrible. Yes, you will stop your armor from being damaged for slightly longer, however during the rest of the fight, your shield recharge will be alot less and eventually you will have had less HP throughout the fight.

This is especially a concern for ships relying on passive shield tanking, such as the drake, jaguar, vagabond, possible the caracal and a few more.

You would be better off without the skill, so when you take some damage around 25% shield, your armor will take some points but your shields will be damaged less, giving them the opportunity to heal faster.
Unfortunately this skill is the prereq for tech2 shield hardeners, as well as for capital shield tanking.

There is also a rumour that TSM at level 5 will reverse the whole situation and make you take damage again like at level 0. Can anyone confirm or disconfirm this?

I would like people, especially developers, to comment on this. Am I totally wrong? Is the damage leaked to the armor, perhaps extra damage? That would have never taken hitpoints off your shield? I've never seen an indication of this, but it is a possibility.

If I am right, why was it made like this? And could it be possible to turn off the effects of this skill?

Thank you in advance for your replies :)

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Originally by: DB Preacher

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(...) Ignore what the coalition muppets are saying on their forums (...)

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Originally by: Drykor

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Unfortunately this skill is the prereq for tech2 shield hardeners, as well as for capital shield tanking.

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Originally by: Pardack

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You've gone over many points that have bugged me since I started playing.

TSM benefits armor tanking, not shield tanking. It seems a bit silly but there it is.

As you mentioned, when shield tanking, you'd rather have some damage leak through to your armor. This would help you sustain your tank a little longer as your shields are offloaded by your armor. With TSM trained, this isn't the case and it actually slightly hurts your tank since no damage leaks through and your shields take all the abuse.

When armor tanking, the opposite is true. You want to have your shield hold up longer. The longer your shields last, the longer you can wait to activate your repper(s) and the longer you can keep your cap.

Originally by: Drykor

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Unfortunately this skill is the prereq for tech2 shield hardeners, as well as for capital shield tanking.

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This is unfortunate indeed. Obviously the people who want T2 hardeners will be shield tanking and will be required to train this skill which hurts their tank a bit, especially when things are dicey and your shields are running low.

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Originally by: Gobblock

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Sheild has a natural regen, just like capacitor. This is why it is possible to sheild tank with no sheild booster on certain setups.

And just like cap, when its almost full, or almost empty, it barely recharges at all, and when your sheild is at 33%, it regenerates at 2.4 * (max sheild/recharge time), just like cap, which is the ideal max regen, assuming a perfectly even drain (which doesnt exist in eve)

the reason tsm is bad is because you end up in the 'power band' of high natural recharge for a shorter period of time.

on some setups, literally the only thing keeping your sheild fed is its natural regen. on most setups, the effect is small, but not insignificant.

This is why many slightly underpowered o.o mining tanks will not have enough sheild booster to cover the dps they take, and slowly lose sheild over an hour or so, but eventually settle at 45% sheild or so, as that is where the 'power band' realy starts to take effect

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Originally by: SiJira
why would shield regen less when its almsot full or almost empty.[/quote

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thats how it works in game, thats why

Estel; thats a valid opinion for pve perhaps, but in pvp you dont always have the choice of running away, and in that situation i would rather have the extra hp, than have a required skill actually REDUCE my combat effectiveness.

Originally by: Alski

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weather it leaks through or not the total HP you have and damage received is exactley the same, the advantage of the damage not leaking through is when your useing active shield boosting and getting very low on shields yet still able to just about out-boost the damage received, in that situaction not takeing armor damage is a definate plus.

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Originally by: Alski

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EDIT: actuley i just thought of anouther reason why TSM is good, if your shield tanking its natural to assume that your shield resists are much higher than your armor resists, in which case that damage that leaks through is probaley going to do at least twice as much damage to your armor as i would to your shields.

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Originally by: Estel Arador

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I love TSM

Here's why:
It's correct that I'll be able to sustain (a little) more damage without TSM before getting destroyed, but I'm not gonna stick around for that!
If my shields drop to below 25%, I consider my tank broken and there's just one thing I want to do: getting the hell out. While I'm getting out, I'll continue to get damage. I'd rather have that damage taken by my (tanked) shield than having to repair my armour afterwards.

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Originally by: Gobblock

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Edited by: Gobblock on 19/04/2007 20:23:23
to respond to your idea that if its not hardened, or not repairable, i say thats besides teh point, if your going to die, all your armor is going to be gone anyway, the ONLY thing that matters is HOW long it takes to die. if it takes you longer to die than your opponent, you win.

i suppose you coudl say, but what about back to back engagements, but is say, if you survive a fight, be happy =), odds are someone in your gang has armor rep drones, or you can dock before your next fight

Okay, When armor bleeding dmg is good for a sheild tanker. (#'s are not exact or accurate, they just illustrate a concept)

We have two identical ships, flown by identical pilots, except one has tsm 4 while one has tsm 0 (or 5)

They are both at 50% shield, taking 10% sheild dmg per second, at this point they both regen the same amount of shield per second (say 5%)

after 2 seconds, the pilot with tsm 4 is still taking 100% of the dmg to his sheild, and regening abuot 7% sheild per second. the pilot with tsm 0 is at 35% sehild, with some armor dmg, he is regening 7.5 sheild per second

after 4 seconds, teh pilot with tsm 4 has about 10% sheild, and isnt regening 1-2% sheild per second, but has 100% armor, the pilot with tsm 0 has abuot 20% sheild, some more armor dmg, and is regening about 3% sheild per second

at 5 seconds the guy with tsm 4 is into armor, and teh pilot iwth tsm 0 is at about 10% sheild, and is regening 1-2% sheild.

okay, now the guy with tsm 4 has more armor, but has been regening less sheidl the whole time, whiel the guy with tsm 0 has been taking armor dmg to keep his sheild regening at a faster rate. So given the same armor, same hp, same sheild, at the end of the batte it will take MORE dmg to kill the guy with tsm 0

the only time tsm 0/5 is bad is when your fight goes on and on and on for ages, it takes an AWEFUL long time to beat down all your armor, andall your structure through the sheild, which is also an AWEFUL long time to be regening sheild faster

therefor, tsm is bad for EVERYONE except at lvl 0 or 5, although on armor tankers, it doesnt really matter, as teh actual % involved isnt jack anyway

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