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Nachshon
Caldari Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.04.17 01:46:00 -
[31]
Whoa. Good job Camar. ____________________________________ Caldari by birth, Minmatar by citizenship.
The True Meaning of Freedom |
Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.04.17 08:30:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Wren I'd like to know why you even care, slaver, untold millions die every year from being worked to death, so your concern is as hollow as your words, now go find somewhere you are wanted (I know it is tough, but try anyway).
Working slaves to death is inefficient from both the economical and spiritual viewpoints.
So yes, I do care, which is more than can be said for you or Camar.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |
Mekarae
Amarr House Mekarae
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Posted - 2007.04.17 11:23:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Mekarae on 17/04/2007 11:21:33
Quote: It is with great pride and pleasure I announce that a total of 145200 slaves has been accepted into and undergone reeducation programs! This vastly outnumbers the last "Great Slave Liberation Operation" by far and I owe thanks to many pilots across the galaxy.
While I'm not sure of the exact numbers it wouldn't surprise me if my greater extended family owned nearly that very number on our collective estates.
Whether you like it or not these people are our lawful property and you are violating our laws unless you purchased them yourself and then freed them.
While I cannot speak for all slave holders I do make sure, as head of our clan, that all slaves are treated in accordance with the charter, "... on the rights of slaves".
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"...strength through aristocratic rule." |
Camar
Stormriders Fimbulwinter
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Posted - 2007.04.17 15:50:00 -
[34]
What was previously forgotten is a public "Thank You" to the Minmatar Mining Corporation which helped provide the reeducation programs for these individuals.
It is my hope that Mr. Esunald Sittidher will continue to encourage his agents to work closely with the Fimbulwinter Clan regarding reeducation of slaves rescued from the Amarr empire.
Also a big thank you to all those who have expressed their support, either public in this thread or through private channels. No contribution or support is too small, like water throwing itself against the rocks...sooner or later the rock will crumble and be engulfed by the ocean.
Your comment is taken as a compliment Mr. Garreck, even though you are one of my many enemies I thank you for it.
A little different "thank you" goes out to Star Fraction and Reven for keeping a lot of the loyalists busy, it is my conviction that without your current operations my journey in the Obelisk would have been a lot more hazardous.
For you Nemesis Rodj, how many of my kin does not die while you and your kin conduct raids? And regardless that you state that working a slave to death is not efficient it is being done A LOT. Not to long ago clan Fimbulwinter took part in attacking a slave-mine in the bleak lands while Ushra'Khan started the attack on a certain battlestation in which we later joined in on. Even those who never experianced the shackles of slavery saw the horrors.
Lastly I shall address you Mekarae. Is there anything regarding us matari YOU have not violated? Our freedom, our laws, our customs, our reasons to...live...
Your laws hold no meaning to me.
We Take Care Of Our Own!
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Mekarae
Amarr House Mekarae
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Posted - 2007.04.17 18:51:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Camar Lastly I shall address you Mekarae. Is there anything regarding us matari YOU have not violated? Our freedom, our laws, our customs, our reasons to...live...
Your laws hold no meaning to me.
I'm sure during war a great many things were violated. Be that as it may slavery is legal within the borders of the Amarr Empire and Khanid Kingdom. I do not take any of my personal slaves into matari space since slavery is indeed illegal within matari space. Seems I have more respect for your laws than you do ours.
Quote: We Take Care Of Our Own!
As do we.
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"...strength through aristocratic rule." |
Camar
Stormriders Fimbulwinter
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Posted - 2007.04.17 20:01:00 -
[36]
Perhaps you should take a look at those of your kin and what they are STILL doing WITHIN matari space Miss Mekarae.
You will not convince me of your right, neither will I of ours so I will just welcome yet another enemy, nothing more, nothing less.
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Ostos Marek
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Posted - 2007.04.17 21:02:00 -
[37]
I seem to think that those you left go "on their way" probobly went off quietly to be executed for believing in Amarr / Ammatar doctrine.
I also do not believe your numbers of how many you've "freed" went back willingly to working with your organization.
Of course no mention to how many were actually born in Amarr/Ammatar space, nor any mention of those not wishing to be taken away.
Propoganda at its finest. And you say the Empire is good at this.
We are recruiting! |
Mekarae
Amarr House Mekarae
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Posted - 2007.04.17 21:35:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Camar Perhaps you should take a look at those of your kin and what they are STILL doing WITHIN matari space Miss Mekarae.
What they are doing in your space is your concern and not mine.
Quote: You will not convince me of your right...
Nor am I trying to. Slavery is neither right or wrong... it just is! It has always been and, in one form or another, will likely always be.
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"...strength through aristocratic rule." |
Pendargon
Gallente Strix Armaments and Defence
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Posted - 2007.04.17 21:57:00 -
[39]
Neither right nor wrong, aye? Permit me ta disagree wiv ya, luv. Nothin' exists in a vacuum, not even somethin' what 'always has been'. Slavery... Hell, anythin' what relegates people ta property, an' that's what ye're doin', mind ye, is jes' plain wrong ta this Gallente's eyes. Them what makes a livin' off of another man's sweat an' blood - an' ye know who ye are - is a cad an' a bounder. An' them what thinks they's doin' slaves a favor... Yeah, why don' ya ask the slaves which they'd prefer, aye? Bein' chained up unner another man's rule, or havin' the freedom ta choose what they want?
Heh, not 'at I s'pect y'all ta lissen ta another dumb Gallente, seein's how mos' of you Amarr are too busy tryin' ta breathe different oxygen than the rest o' us, with yer noses up in the air like 'at... But hey, you wanna talk 'bout it, me comm's open. Li'l intelligent discourse never hurt no one, aye? There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those who understand Binary and those who don't. |
Mekarae
Amarr House Mekarae
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Posted - 2007.04.17 23:03:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Mekarae on 17/04/2007 23:01:39
Originally by: Pendargon Neither right nor wrong, aye? Permit me ta disagree wiv ya, luv. Nothin' exists in a vacuum, not even somethin' what 'always has been'. Slavery... Hell, anythin' what relegates people ta property, an' that's what ye're doin', mind ye, is jes' plain wrong ta this Gallente's eyes. Them what makes a livin' off of another man's sweat an' blood - an' ye know who ye are - is a cad an' a bounder. An' them what thinks they's doin' slaves a favor... Yeah, why don' ya ask the slaves which they'd prefer, aye? Bein' chained up unner another man's rule, or havin' the freedom ta choose what they want?
Heh, not 'at I s'pect y'all ta lissen ta another dumb Gallente, seein's how mos' of you Amarr are too busy tryin' ta breathe different oxygen than the rest o' us, with yer noses up in the air like 'at... But hey, you wanna talk 'bout it, me comm's open. Li'l intelligent discourse never hurt no one, aye?
What an extraordinary dialect you speak. I must confess to being unfamiliar with it. Oh... and by the way I am a Khanid and not an Amarrian just as you are a Gallentean and not an Intaki.
You state slavery is wrong in Gallentean eye's but let's not delude ourselves into thinking that any one of our societies has achieved eutopia. We all have our problems. I hear homelessness is a real problem in Gallente society. So you have freedom but not all your people have either the resources or capabilities to exploit their freedom to achieve a degree of success.
On the other hand all of the slaves my extended family owns are employed, fed, reasonably well treated, and housed. Some of our elite household slaves (best and brightest) are educated and draw a reasonable stipend with the view of one day buying their freedom. My own personal slave (who has been with me since my birth and is now head of the household slaves) draws a stipend several times higher than the average Gallentean middle class wage, such is her value. She also owns three slaves of her own to assist her in her duties.
I think way too many of you oversimplify what is a very complex dynamic between a multi-generational slave society and their multi-generational masters. Ask my personal slave what she will do when manumitted and she will tell you that going back to Gallente (where her origins are) is not a priority. She has never been there and the culture is quite alien to her. She will enrole as my client and continue to serve our household, albeit as a fully paid employee.
Things are rarely as simple as they seem.
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"...strength through aristocratic rule." |
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Pendargon
Gallente Strix Armaments and Defence
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Posted - 2007.04.18 06:47:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Pendargon on 18/04/2007 06:49:58 Heh, aye, dun try lookin' fer one spot fer me accent, luv. She's kinda a mish-mash of everything unner th'sun, an' a few things what ain't. And me apologies about mistakin' your heritage, din't mean it as a slight.
Now, let's get down ta the brass tacks, aye? Takin' it one by one, so t'speak.
1: You state slavery is wrong in Gallentean eye's but let's not delude ourselves into thinking that any one of our societies has achieved eutopia.
Aye, true true, every society's got her prollems. But just 'cause every society has 'er problems, that doesn't give leave to keep on with those problems. Two wrongs don't make a right, and all that. Be like me sayin' "oy, i can murder you, 'cause joe down the street was murdered two days ago, so s'totally justified."
Oh, an' just ta clear up, I ain't necessary sayin' that my view is shared by all Gallente, just by meself. Now, next part:
2. "On the other hand all of the slaves my extended family owns are employed, fed, reasonably well treated, and housed. Some of our elite household slaves (best and brightest) are educated and draw a reasonable stipend with the view of one day buying their freedom. My own personal slave (who has been with me since my birth and is now head of the household slaves) draws a stipend several times higher than the average Gallentean middle class wage, such is her value. She also owns three slaves of her own to assist her in her duties."
Now, see, I think you're misunderstandin' me on the issue here. It ain't that you're ill-treatin' your slaves - though, if ye are, you deserve ta be packed up inta a cargo cannister and fired inta a gas giant - it's that they're SLAVES. It's that ya take a livin', breathin', thinkin' human being, an' basically put him down ta the level of 'pet', or even 'object'. Humans, whether we was created, made, or just happened by accident, are meant ta be free. Like I said before, give a slave the choice between freedom and slavery... Well hell luv, even your own slaves prove me point. They're working towards getting theyselves free. I'm sure you're a luvverly person, an' that ya treat 'em jes' fine... But when the sun sets, They're still pieces of property to ya. Otherwise, they wouldn' be slaves.
And really, that's what it all boils down ta. It ain't that you're mistreatin' 'em, it ain't that they're in the wrong portion of space, it ain't that there's a giant pink bunny in the sky that says if it's right or wrong. It's that you're trying to own another man's life. It's that they ain't got the choice to go their own way if they want to. It's that they ain't free to determine their own ways. THAT'S what I object to.
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----------------------------------------------- There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those who understand Binary and those who don't. |
Kade Jeekin
Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.04.18 10:07:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Kade Jeekin on 18/04/2007 10:07:24 Edited by: Kade Jeekin on 18/04/2007 10:04:48 Why is it that the Amarr on GalNet are always saying that they treat slaves good when all the evidence, such as work camps, breeding farms, chemical control, arbitrary murder and gladiator fights, all show how brutal they really are? What is the source of these Amarran fantasies? Are the holders and elites really kept ignorant of what goes on? Just because you can write just about anything on GalNet does not make it true. Oh and before anyone quibbles over race again. Race is unimportant - just see how many Caldari, Matari and Gallente peoples support the Amarran system. --------------------------------------- Outface the depths of evil with clarity --------------------------------------- |
Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.04.18 10:11:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Kade Jeekin Why is it that the Amarr on GalNet are always saying that they treat slaves good when all the evidence, susch as work camps, breeding farms, chemical control, arbitrary murder and gladiator fights, all show how brutal they really are? What is the source of these Amarran fantasies? Are the holders and elites really kept ignorant of what goes on? Just because you can write just about anything on GalNet does not make it true. Oh and before anyone quibbles over race again. Race is unimportant - just see how many Caldari, Matari and Gallente peoples support the Amarr State.
You want to talk about brutality?
How about we talk about a society that exiles, disfigures or kills a significant minority of its population on the basis of randomly generated tattoos?
That society of course is the Minmatar one.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |
Kade Jeekin
Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.04.18 10:16:00 -
[44]
Rodj Blake. And how does your point answer my questions? Your input is meaningless in context. I do not remember reading anywhere that the Matari don't do what you say. --------------------------------------- Outface the depths of evil with clarity --------------------------------------- |
Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.04.18 10:24:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Kade Jeekin Rodj Blake. And how does your point answer my questions? Your input is meaningless in context. I do not remember reading anywhere that the Matari don't do what you say.
So you accept that those things do happen in Minmatar society then. Excellent.
My point is that apparently extreme methods are sometimes necessary to rid the Minmatars of their brutal psychology.
As to the more specific issue of slave mistreatment, the late Emperor Doriam II, may he rest in peace, stated the slaves should be treated well. Additionally, the SPCS investigates and educates slavers accused of mistreating their adopted workers.
Should you have evidence pertaining the mistreatment of any specific slave, I suggest that you personally hand it in to your nearest SPCS office.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |
Kade Jeekin
Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.04.18 10:31:00 -
[46]
Slaver, take your SPCS and your supercilious attitude and go to hell. None of what you state answers my questions about the fictions that people like Mekarae promote. It is, obviously, not something you can answer. --------------------------------------- Outface the depths of evil with clarity --------------------------------------- |
Amira Silvermist
The Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2007.04.18 10:42:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Kade Jeekin
Just because you can write just about anything on GalNet does not make it true.
That gem of wisdom is pretty much the answer to all that terrorist propaganda thats bleeding into IGS every now and then.
Slave abuse is a bad thing but the exception and not the rule.
Amarr racial trait: Nerfbat damage resistance 0% |
Mekarae
Amarr House Mekarae
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Posted - 2007.04.18 10:58:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Kade Jeekin Slaver, take your SPCS and your supercilious attitude and go to hell. None of what you state answers my questions about the fictions that people like Mekarae promote. It is, obviously, not something you can answer.
I fail to see why I would run my household in any other way than which I have described or what I would have to gain by lying about it. It makes good economic sense to keep a reasonably motivated workforce. I personally advise my clan to avoid using neural inhibitors, restraining bolts, toxicity grafts, and the like. If a new slave fails to perform I advise they be sold with poor references and right off the monetary loss for taxation purposes. Where they end up after that is not of my concern.
So while you would like to promote that ALL slaves suffer under inhumane barbaric treatment I think you will find the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Most Amarrians that I have met do not endorse the mistreatment of slaves.
Your problem is more related to the concept of slavery rather than the treatment of the slaves themselves.
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"...strength through aristocratic rule." |
Kade Jeekin
Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.04.18 10:59:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Kade Jeekin on 18/04/2007 10:55:35 Meh, she replied - making my post irrelevant --------------------------------------- Outface the depths of evil with clarity --------------------------------------- |
Kade Jeekin
Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.04.18 11:25:00 -
[50]
With your permission Camar? No Mekarae, you have a lot to gain by lying. You wish to promote the idea that your lifestyle is somehow valid. You, and others gloss it with "Slave abuse is a bad thing but the exception and not the rule". and "Most Amarrians that I have met do not endorse the mistreatment of slaves." Your pretty words and attempts at glamour can not gloss over the truths that I have stated previously, and many have seen beyond these IGS pages. I challenge you to present one independent report of good treatment. --------------------------------------- Outface the depths of evil with clarity --------------------------------------- |
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.04.18 11:36:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Kade Jeekin With your permission Camar? No Mekarae, you have a lot to gain by lying. You wish to promote the idea that your lifestyle is somehow valid. You, and others gloss it with "Slave abuse is a bad thing but the exception and not the rule". and "Most Amarrians that I have met do not endorse the mistreatment of slaves." Your pretty words and attempts at glamour can not gloss over the truths that I have stated previously, and many have seen beyond these IGS pages. I challenge you to present one independent report of good treatment.
Kade, if we all worked our slaves to death or used them in gladiatorial fights to the death, there would soon be no slaves left, and we would not be having this discussion!
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |
Kade Jeekin
Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.04.18 12:58:00 -
[52]
Rodj Blake, don't troll me.
Take your ... supercilious attitude and go to hell. None of what you state answers my questions about the fictions that people like Mekarae promote. It is, obviously, not something you can answer.
I challenge you to present one independent report of good treatment. --------------------------------------- Outface the depths of evil with clarity --------------------------------------- |
Mekarae
Amarr House Mekarae
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Posted - 2007.04.18 13:29:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Kade Jeekin I challenge you to present one independent report of good treatment.
It appears you fail to understand exactly how the geo-political media structure works. Good treatment of slaves just isn't newsworthy but the mere hint of mistreatment and you've got a thousand Gallente and Matari reporters crawling all over everything.
We will just have to agree to disagree since your mind and ears are closed to anything other than your own misconceptions.
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"...strength through aristocratic rule." |
Kade Jeekin
Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.04.18 14:22:00 -
[54]
Mekarae, just more fancy weasley words. Your proposition of the nature of the 'geo-political media' just gives free-reign to any old fantasy people may wish to construct. As, I suspect your whole premise of 'We have an equivalent number on our estates as Camar managed to free, so what you do is worthless' argument.
You accuse me of having a closed mind and ears but you have not actually said anything that can be backed up. I have lived under ignorance due to people like youself before. It is not something I will go back to. My weight of evidence far outweighs anything you have presented.
If I, and other's like me, did not escape the grips of your blind faith then we would not be having this discussion. I believe you would have preferred it that way, and dream when it may be so again. --------------------------------------- Outface the depths of evil with clarity --------------------------------------- |
Wren
Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.04.18 14:58:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Wren on 18/04/2007 14:54:16
Originally by: Mekarae
Originally by: Kade Jeekin I challenge you to present one independent report of good treatment.
It appears you fail to understand exactly how the geo-political media structure works. Good treatment of slaves just isn't newsworthy but the mere hint of mistreatment and you've got a thousand Gallente and Matari reporters crawling all over everything.
We will just have to agree to disagree since your mind and ears are closed to anything other than your own misconceptions.
It's hard to have misconceptions on what really goes on behind the gold dusted sweet lipped words of a handful of Amarrian mouthpieces.
Fortunately, those who can read or see with open eyes can know the truth.
Have a nice day, slaver.
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Wren says: "Chirpy Chirp Chirp.... DAMNIT!" |
Pendargon
Gallente Strix Armaments and Defence
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Posted - 2007.04.18 15:47:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Mekarae
Originally by: Kade Jeekin I challenge you to present one independent report of good treatment.
It appears you fail to understand exactly how the geo-political media structure works. Good treatment of slaves just isn't newsworthy but the mere hint of mistreatment and you've got a thousand Gallente and Matari reporters crawling all over everything.
We will just have to agree to disagree since your mind and ears are closed to anything other than your own misconceptions.
Aww, here I put me 'eart an' soul inta me response, an' I don't even get a by-your-leave. I do b'lieve I been snubbed.
----------------------------------------------- There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those who understand Binary and those who don't. |
Mekarae
Amarr House Mekarae
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Posted - 2007.04.18 16:29:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Mekarae on 18/04/2007 16:28:31
Originally by: Pendargon Aww, here I put me 'eart an' soul inta me response, an' I don't even get a by-your-leave. I do b'lieve I been snubbed.
I most certainly did read your post and believe you have a considerably more sound grip on reality than those who followed you. Alas I became sidetracked.
Quote: But when the sun sets, They're still pieces of property to ya. Otherwise, they wouldn' be slaves.
You are correct. They are my property to buy and sell as I wish and are often handed down through the generations. Beyond that it's all ideology. While I respect your views I can say with some certainty my view on the topic of slavery is unlikely to change.
Quote: Fortunately, those who can read or see with open eyes can know the truth.
That's the extent of your 'evidence'? The Kor-Azor incident and some links to well known articles. Thank you for pointing out to everyone that we have a number of means at our disposal to control slaves if the need arises. What you are failing to see are the cost benefit analysis ratios of using these control methods versus other methods. Systems of control which hinder the yield ratio of the base unit level slave are invariably not cost effective in the long run. Slaves who are mistreated, half-starved, exausted, frightened and under the effects of a control device have low productivity in the long term, a measurably higher rate per unit slave of psychological collapse (long term and/or permanent) and a measurably lower expiration date. What does all this economic jargon boil down to? We have to replace them with greater frequency and train the new ones. Training alone takes time for a position requiring skilled labour.
This is not a moral argument, it's an economic one.
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"...strength through aristocratic rule." |
Wren
Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.04.18 16:52:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Mekarae ...Bla bla bla... We have to replace them with greater frequency and train the new ones. Training alone takes time for a position requiring skilled labour.
This is not a moral argument, it's an economic one.
Slave farms + enforced breeding programs via vitoc, dogs, or implants = stocks of slaves Implants + skill packs = trained slave
And morality is not a good argument with you and your kind anyway, you are in the minority as far as your morals are concerned (40% of the cluster is controlled by Amarrians, but not all Amarrians are slavers or holders and not everyone in the Empire is aligned with those morals).
It doesn't matter only one slave was ever killed by a holder for no apparent reason, that is enough of an outrage to make it stop. Yet untold millions or billions have been killed, turned into little more than walking meat puppet until they died, or worse, treated nice and allowed to work in the beautiful houses of a few spoiled holders and pod pilots and be nothing but the exception to the rule that allows you to rationalize it all.
So really, again your arguments are as hollow as your heart.
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Wren says: "Chirpy Chirp Chirp.... DAMNIT!" |
Kade Jeekin
Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.04.18 17:30:00 -
[59]
I will presume you are not suggesting that the Amarr keep people enslaved soley for economic reasons. That you are arguing that better treatment gets better economic results. I will presume that you are suggesting that "means at our disposal to control slaves if the need arises" implies that the need rarely arises.
I have one name, from recent history, that should burst your bubble of a docile enslaved populace that if offered freedom from your kind would spurn it, and return on bended knee. One name to add to your economic equation. That name is Mabnen.
Know this slaver, we are those who escaped your killing fields, concentration camps and chemical control. We know what it is that we fight. It is the reason for our fury. Your attempts to paint us as deluded have no foundation. --------------------------------------- Outface the depths of evil with clarity --------------------------------------- |
Mekarae
Amarr House Mekarae
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Posted - 2007.04.18 17:51:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Wren Slave farms + enforced breeding programs via vitoc, dogs, or implants = stocks of slaves Implants + skill packs = trained slave
I personally don't use the above stated methods. Implants and skill packs are NOT all that cheap and I wouldn't waste that sort of money on a slave.
I don't know how you treat your property but I was brought up to treat my inanimate property with care and my living property with respect. I treat my pets well and my slaves well, although I tend not to use 1st generation slaves because they are somewhat unreliable.
Try seeing less black and white between slavers and non slavers and recognise there are all shades in between. Not every slaver is a butcher you know. If you can't recognise that all slave owners are different then more fool you.
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"...strength through aristocratic rule." |
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