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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Lacori
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2016.09.07 14:09:27 -
[31] - Quote
It has been interesting, reading your responses.
Although there are some who feel the same as me, that the actions we take in the game are simply adopting a certain playstyle, the large majority feel that what we do in-game reflects the true nature of our psyche, whether we express it in real life or not.
If I had a thinner skin I may even find this insulting but, instead, I just find it perplexing.
Those who have compared it to someone changing the rules of a board game midway through the game are incorrect, however. No rules were changed within Eve's lifespan. Eve was intended to be a PvP game primarily, which is why CCP built the one shard which people play on (except for China, that is).
CCP seem to want to maintain that they care about people's real life welfare; they host PLEX charity donations, they were swift to slap Mittens on the wrist after his drunken Fanfest rant, and they even discourage people on these forums from 'personal attacks'. Yet they have never frowned upon griefing within Eve; moreso they encourage emergent gameplay such as this, and have even dedicated extra server power to events like Hulkageddon and Burn Jita.
So at least CCP seem to be on my side (something I thought I'd never say lol), or else their actions would be wholeheartedly at odds with one another; caring about real life well-being of real life individuals and permitting ganking, scams and other, what might be described by some, deviant behaviour.
For the record I don't see it as deviant in the slightest. Maybe a bit meta at most. Eve, like any other game, is there to be played and I resent that people go away from it thinking that they are looking into the windows of the real life players' souls, rather than just the role their character is playing.
Do you think anyone who plays COD secretly wants to shoot people in real life? (Okay maybe bad example there...) |
Elenahina
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
1170
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Posted - 2016.09.07 14:21:09 -
[32] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Elenahina wrote:I've been roleplaying for over 30 years, and in that time I have played a wide range of characters who both are and are not like me. It's all about breathing life into the character. Understanding what motivates them, as opposed to what motivates you. Being able to keep them separate isn't really that hard, for a well ordered mind. Would you not say though that to an extent your choice of character to roleplay reflect your own preferences though?
Not always - I mean, from a certain perspective, I don't play characters I don't want to play, but not all of them have been characters I have really cared for. Some I tried just to try that sort of character, others because I was running the game at the time.
Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you.
Also, iderno
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Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
719
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Posted - 2016.09.07 14:32:04 -
[33] - Quote
So if one were to accept that in-game actions are a window into the true self of the person in question (which I *would* say is true, to an extent - but it can be a misleading image to those who do not see the feelings/motivations of the person performing the actions - the person behind the keyboard) - Does that also mean that it is fair to judge players by what they *say* in the game? I would argue that it is.
I'll be honest - I can be a **** both in game and out - and I'm well aware of my own tendencies in the relevant areas... But more interesting to me are the people who feel the need to point it out to me... Because the ways they choose to do so often reveal a dark side of themselves that they (and those around them) seem completely oblivious to...
The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool.
They lay. They rotted. They turned
Around occasionally.
Bits of flesh dropped off them from
Time to time.
And sank into the pool's mire.
They also smelt a great deal.
Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
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Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
7826
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Posted - 2016.09.07 14:45:45 -
[34] - Quote
Lacori wrote:Those who have compared it to someone changing the rules of a board game midway through the game are incorrect, however. The point was that you can;t compare it to a board game at all, since there's not only one set of rules in the game, there's a multitude of playstyles, which is why I compared it more to playing cards, where multiple different games can be played with the same deck, and people can choose to change which game they play at any moment.
Lacori wrote:Eve was intended to be a PvP game primarily, which is why CCP built the one shard which people play on (except for China, that is). While somewhat true, the definition of "PvP" varies. EVE was designed to be primarily a PvP game, but it wasn't designed primarily to be a "pew pew" game. PvP comes in many forms from shooting someone in the face to market transactions. The idea that the core gameplay mechanic is shooting other players is as absurd as claiming the core gameplay mechanic is mining asteroids, both are simply part of the game.
Lacori wrote:Yet they have never frowned upon griefing within Eve; moreso they encourage emergent gameplay such as this, and have even dedicated extra server power to events like Hulkageddon and Burn Jita. You heard about the bonus rooms right? Ganking events are generally not designed as a form of grief, the intention is to rack up kills, not to rack up people being upset. I find it hard to believe that CCP actively support one players intention to purposely upset another player. The reason they don't always act when it happens is because intent is difficult to identify. Again look to the bonus room to see what happens when that intent is clear.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
7826
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Posted - 2016.09.07 14:49:00 -
[35] - Quote
Elenahina wrote:Not always - I mean, from a certain perspective, I don't play characters I don't want to play, but not all of them have been characters I have really cared for. Some I tried just to try that sort of character, others because I was running the game at the time. But would it be safe to say you wouldn't create a character in a game you played for entertainment such as EVE that primarily played in a style you didn't find entertaining?
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale Black Marker
508
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Posted - 2016.09.07 14:51:18 -
[36] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Solecist Project wrote:Look who's back! Miss me? No. I was so glad you were gone.
When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
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Chopper Rollins
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1538
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Posted - 2016.09.07 14:51:26 -
[37] - Quote
Elenahina wrote:Just like I have a code of ethics that guides my real life, I would create a code of behavior and guidelines for my characters. Motivations, goals, things of that sort.?
The invented character turns to powder under pressure. An easy test for people is to ask them questions you know the answer to. A hard test is to stress them with responsibility, ridicule or limit their time or ability to do something. Roleplaying is a posture people adopt, the core doesn't change.
Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
2784
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Posted - 2016.09.07 14:52:24 -
[38] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:How you behave in a game is a reflection of how you would behave in RL if there were no laws to punish or stop you behaving that way. Absolutely, I would totally dunk miners in RL but the law prevents me from behaving that way.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Vortexo VonBrenner
Raumfahrer Spiff Rakett Piloot Anslutning
2466
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Posted - 2016.09.07 14:54:46 -
[39] - Quote
Many EvE players roleplay a "bad" guy ingame, but are often decent enough folk IRL. I roleplay a "good" guy ingame but am pretty much an ashhat IRL.
People are strange and complex, eh?
EvE security zones in pictures
EvE quick reference pdf
A wise man sums up EvE
Smoke me a Kipper...
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Judaa K'Marr
Power-Hug Training Bootcamp
36
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Posted - 2016.09.07 14:56:58 -
[40] - Quote
Mandatory Zizek: "At the same time, there is the much more unsettling opposite idea of the domination of my screen persona over my "real" self. Our social identity, the person we assume to be in our social intercourse, is already a "mask" that involves the repression of our inadmissible impulses. But it is precisely in the conditions of "just playing" - when the rules regulating our "real life" exchanges are temporarily suspended - that we can permit ourselves to display these repressed attitudes. Take the proverbial impotent shy person who, while participating in a cyberspace interactive game, adopts the identity of an irresistible seducer or sadistic murderer. It is all too simple to say that this identity is just an imaginary escape from real-life impotence. The point is rather that, since he knows that the cyberspace interactive game is "just a game," he can "show his true self" and do things he would never have done in real-life interactions. In the guise of a fiction, the truth about himself is articulated. The fact that I perceive my virtual self-image as mere play thus allows me to suspend the usual hindrances which prevent me from realising my "dark half" in real life. My electronic id is given wing." |
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Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
719
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Posted - 2016.09.07 14:59:32 -
[41] - Quote
Another major point of contention seems to be over what is actually "bad" within a video game.
I mean in RL - most people can agree that killing someone is bad. But that is because in RL people don't re-spawn - so it is a permanent thing. By killing someone, you take away their very life itself. And *everything* within it.
But in a game - people just re-spawn. Depending on the game they may lose very little, or even nothing at all. Even in EVE - the vast majority of deaths are minor inconveniences at most - and the ones that are more significant are made so only through the foolish actions of the person in question. But even then - even the worst financial losses are only space-assets that the person can accumulate again if they care to put the time/effort into doing so.
Thus - "Killing" someone within a video game is *not* inherently evil - and there is no grounds to state that someone who kills people inside the game will kill them outside of the game - because they are not even remotely close to being the same action.
The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool.
They lay. They rotted. They turned
Around occasionally.
Bits of flesh dropped off them from
Time to time.
And sank into the pool's mire.
They also smelt a great deal.
Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
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Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
520
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Posted - 2016.09.07 15:24:14 -
[42] - Quote
I think it just boils down for some that Eve is their life.
@lunettelulu7
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Zanar Skwigelf
Boa Innovations Brothers of Tangra
33
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Posted - 2016.09.07 15:32:29 -
[43] - Quote
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:Another major point of contention seems to be over what is actually "bad" within a video game.
I mean in RL - most people can agree that killing someone is bad. But that is because in RL people don't re-spawn - so it is a permanent thing. By killing someone, you take away their very life itself. And *everything* within it.
But in a game - people just re-spawn. Depending on the game they may lose very little, or even nothing at all. Even in EVE - the vast majority of deaths are minor inconveniences at most - and the ones that are more significant are made so only through the foolish actions of the person in question. But even then - even the worst financial losses are only space-assets that the person can accumulate again if they care to put the time/effort into doing so.
Thus - "Killing" someone within a video game is *not* inherently evil - and there is no grounds to state that someone who kills people inside the game will kill them outside of the game - because they are not even remotely close to being the same action.
Basically this. It's not "an extension of who you are", it's that the in game punishment doesn't fit the crime. Blapping a miner sends you both to Jita where you both reship and go back to the same belt minutes later.
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
2356
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Posted - 2016.09.07 15:33:23 -
[44] - Quote
You have to be very careful on this definition of bad, I am going to get into RL stuff which is of course not good news on the Eve forums. A while back some environmentalists said that it would be a good thing if the human race suffered some sort of plague that seriously reduced the number of humans on the planet. Some people would see them as good, others as bad.
There are people in this world who kill someone for expressing something they find offensive, there are others who socially exclude, jail, fine, get them sacked from their job and prevent them from finding work for expressing something they find offensive, both are bad, but for some only the first is bad.
The ability to role play is actually a lot of fun in games where role playing is a major part of the game, but I can definitely say that Eve is not a role playing game, at least for what I have seen, I can role play it if I chose to, but there are a majority of Eve players who are not role playing even if they tell themselves that they are.
Simple question one has to ask is are you trying to garner an upset response from the player as your primary reason for blowing them up, if you do then I will just smile knowingly in your direction... Not that I care of course
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
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Chopper Rollins
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1539
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Posted - 2016.09.07 15:37:18 -
[45] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:How you behave in a game is a reflection of how you would behave in RL if there were no laws to punish or stop you behaving that way. Absolutely, I would totally dunk miners in RL but the law prevents me from behaving that way.
Some of us think of ethics as a complex thing for the greatest of minds and that people are evil unless violent overseers are constantly watching. Others, about 98% of the population, know that ethics are expected of everyone over about 5 years of age and are used by everyone all the time. Within the 'magic circle' of a game's rules though, all bets are off. It's only when the rules are evaded or broken that you can question another player's ethics. "Is only gaem, y u hef to be med?"
Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
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Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
520
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Posted - 2016.09.07 15:39:47 -
[46] - Quote
Well I hope this thread doesn't derail into some lame RL philosophical/socio/economic/political/ethical thread but in New Eden I have literally no compunction for shooting a fellow demigod Capsuleer.
@lunettelulu7
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Serene Repose
2925
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Posted - 2016.09.07 15:39:53 -
[47] - Quote
Then again, it's not cut and dry killing someone IRL is a bad thing. Under certain conditions it's a good and preferred thing that is rewarded in some way - the very least in takehome pay.
The idea of "showing ones true self" when not constricted by "social forces" only points out that certain undesireable reactions by others are enough of a threat as to cause someone not to demonstrate certain characteristics they do in truth possess.
The salient point is the idea someone can be involved in any aspect of RL without it being tied to their inescapable psychological make-up. Simply: If you're incapable of doing something, you don't do it. If you are capable, you can...it may not be "will do it" if circumstances do not present themselves.
I contend capitalism produces socipaths through selective breeding. Apparently the psych profession agrees as they revised their handbook and changed the name of sociopathy while attributing certain of its symptoms to "succssful" people. Sure. Stalin was successful - 29 million murders later.
There are two types of sociopaths. One is afraid of what might happen if they express this condition openly. Another doesn't care what "we" do. The latter is a slim minority.
All I've seen here in the "pro- video games are make-believe" camp is a deceptive rationalization of abberant behavior.
We must accommodate the idiocracy.
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Chopper Rollins
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1539
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Posted - 2016.09.07 15:41:17 -
[48] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:then I will just smile knowingly in your direction]
This features in many of your posts, it doesn't add anything to them and comes across as conceited and soft. Unless that's what you're roleplaying, in which case, well done.
Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
2356
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Posted - 2016.09.07 15:49:58 -
[49] - Quote
Chopper Rollins wrote:Dracvlad wrote:then I will just smile knowingly in your direction] This features in many of your posts, it doesn't add anything to them and comes across as conceited and soft. Unless that's what you're roleplaying, in which case, well done. My dear friend, I tend to only shoot people in Eve for in game reasons that affect me and what I am trying to do, it makes it more fun for me at least, for me it is all about self control. I did work out your main, but trolling Aaron and me in the Hub Zero thread was actually amusing, especially as I hated those stupid threads.
But what if I said smiled in a smug conceited way, would that work?
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
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Dibz
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
123
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Posted - 2016.09.07 15:54:15 -
[50] - Quote
Our conduct is always a reflection of our character, whatever the context. |
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Infinity Ziona
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
2462
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Posted - 2016.09.07 16:05:59 -
[51] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:*snip* Simple question one has to ask is are you trying to garner an upset response from the player as your primary reason for blowing them up, if you do then I will just smile knowingly in your direction... Not that I care of course This is really the core point.
I have pirated early in EvE killing people for my own pleasure - it is pleasurable to kill another player in game at least for me.
However a few times after killing players I checked their info and realised they were newbies, so I sent them isk to replace the ship.
While war deccing people I found a few of the younger corp / alliance members easy ganks, killing them 2 or 3 times and then after that I sent them a mail and told them I wouldn't be killing them anymore. Why? I didn't want to harass them, nor did I want to drive them from the corp or game.
Other times after a war dec I'd send the person who died the most or fought back particularly well the fitted ship I'd been killing them all in.
My goal was always to enjoy myself and never to cause other people in game to feel like quitting because their sub helps me and because I'm not an IRL asswipe.
Now some people in game get off on making people quit, or they get off on making the person behind the keyboard angry or upset, Erotica was a good example of someone like that, an IRL scumbag whos playstyle reflected their IRL personality.
People like Baltec1 and goons are the same sort of people, they're happy to sit at a highsec choke and kill empty ships worth 200 to 600 times more than their own ship purely for the pleasure that loss causes to the player they're ganking.
While I wouldn't class them in the same category as Erotica they are people I would consider lowbrow and not associate with IRL.
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
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Paranoid Loyd
9532
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Posted - 2016.09.07 16:13:57 -
[52] - Quote
Well at least we're not personally attacking anyone.
"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix
Fix the Prospect!
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Serene Repose
2925
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Posted - 2016.09.07 16:18:07 -
[53] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Well at least we're not personally attacking anyone. Not yet, anyway. Dibz wrote:Our conduct is always a reflection of our character, whatever the context. Well put, by the way. Succint.
We must accommodate the idiocracy.
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Nana Skalski
Poseidaon
15498
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Posted - 2016.09.07 16:24:40 -
[54] - Quote
I think I can play a bad character as I can play good character.
I used to do that in Baldurs Gate. And Baldurs Gate 2 Shadows of Amn.
I was a very bad person. Neutral evil character. Like Viconia. Even downloaded "be a drow" mod.
Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Where is Angry CONCORD guy when you need him.
GëíGïüGëí GÖÑ
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Chopper Rollins
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1542
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Posted - 2016.09.07 16:25:36 -
[55] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:1) People like Baltec1 and goons are the same sort of people, they're happy to sit at a highsec choke and kill empty ships worth 200 to 600 times more than their own ship purely for the pleasure that loss causes to the player they're ganking.
2) While I wouldn't class them in the same category as Erotica they are people I would consider lowbrow and not associate with IRL.
1) Sometimes after waiting for a target, out of boredom people kill or hotdrop the next thing that comes along, which explains empty ship kills and carriers landing on a lowsec thrasher. To go from there to character flaws is a long bow to draw.
2) Who cares? What you think of them isn't relevant.
I have met a guy who lures new players into his corp, kills them, destroys their assets and kicks them. Once he led 15 miners into nullsec and after he'd loaded up all their assets into a freighter he kicked them all. He actually is a sadist who divides all people into two groups: Losers (people who trust him in any way) and bastards (people who see through him or take advantage of him). I've spoken with him on comms, i've flown with him. It's his pleasure to try to hurt people and get them to leave the game in despair. It's a fact that some people are like him. Lying and manipulating since birth and very good at it, better, in fact, than normal people. You can't roleplay that on his level. Adopting a disgusted, amused or dismissive stance is nothing to the case.
Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
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Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
719
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Posted - 2016.09.07 16:36:31 -
[56] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:I contend capitalism produces socipaths through selective breeding. Apparently the psych profession agrees as they revised their handbook and changed the name of sociopathy while attributing certain of its symptoms to "succssful" people. Sure. Stalin was successful - 29 million murders later. It is interesting that you blame capitalism but then hold up the example of one of the most famous non-capitalists in the world... And it points out the major flaw in your philosophy.
There is ample historical evidence that would tend to suggest that *humans* in general - regardless of their environment, upbringing, or specific genetics - tend (in general) to be evil, and do evil/bad things any time they think they can get away with it.
This is *why* societies with all of their customs, rules, and laws are so important - and why it has always been considered a "mental illness" if someone for any reason is unwilling/unable to conform to societal expectations.
Ultimately one of the biggest problems is that people refuse to accept that they themselves are inherently evil/bad - so they have to rationalize and reassure themselves that they are "as good as everybody else" or "at least I'm better than that monster over there"...
Additionally there is no mystery in the fact that those who are smart enough to give in to their bad tendencies and skirt societal rules/laws/expectations to get ahead (without going so far that they actually get caught) become successful - everyone else is competing at a severe disadvantage, because they have to follow the rules. And the change in psychological definitions merely indicates that they have attained enough power within society to change society itself - making other conform to their standards, since they refuse to conform to the previously defined standards.
To bring this back to the discussion here, and tie into my previous post - the only reason this is even coming up is because people have a need to believe they are morally superior to other people - so in denying their own dark-side they delight in pointing out the darkness of others.
As I say - I *know* myself. I'm far from perfect. And yes, I have used games like EVE to express some of my darker tendencies in a virtual environment (though other games are better - personally I prefer single-player RPG games for this purpose - as I do not enjoy opening myself up to people even within an anonymous virtual world) - even though I have enough self control I would never do so outside of the game. (Incidentally I have also found that some of my strengths have also been retained within the game world - such as my unwillingness to accept ransoms, nor to scam people, but that is a separate topic of conversation).
Ultimately - video games that place the player within the world as a virtual character were created specifically for the purpose of allowing people to live out a fantasy existence doing things they either can't or won't do in reality. It is stranger to see people *not* using the medium for its intended purpose than to see people expressing their inner dark-sides.
And so I personally find it more interesting to see how people who consider themselves "good" - and who take pride in following their own ethical code even within the fantasy world of a video game - still express their own inner darkness (or their fear of it) in attacking others who have done something to them within the virtual world. Their denial intrigues me - and in some cases the depth of their dark-side...their well-spring of pure hatred... Is actually far more unsettling than any open action could ever be. Particularly coupled with the fact that they honestly believe they are good/blameless...
The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool.
They lay. They rotted. They turned
Around occasionally.
Bits of flesh dropped off them from
Time to time.
And sank into the pool's mire.
They also smelt a great deal.
Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
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Serene Repose
2925
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Posted - 2016.09.07 16:40:42 -
[57] - Quote
It is interesting you use the word "blame". That is a western civ/capitalist indoctrinated useage. There isn't ample evidence to the contrary as no significant method to organize modern civilization has existed long enough to gather data to make your assertion. Claiming "communism" isn't capitalism won't work as first, there was no communist state ever in existence, and secondly the entire concept of Marxism is just another form of capitalism.
"blame"....interesting...the "guilt" word works its way in there, no?
Psychological disruption is seen as a fair tradeoff for the "organization" capitalism creates. You also have the idea of "winners" and "losers" in life. You have inequity, indoctrination, and the great temple of Wall Street, the priesthood of the investment bankers, even the papal equivalanet of the chairman of the Federal Reserve Bank...accepting doctrine without understanding...believing without proof - faith.
Capitalism is a religion. Competiton between members of a social species...interesting use of free will that.
We must accommodate the idiocracy.
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Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
719
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Posted - 2016.09.07 16:42:50 -
[58] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:It is interesting you use the word "blame". That is a western civ/capitalist indoctrinated useage. There isn't ample evidence to the contrary as no significant method to organize modern civilization has existed long enough to gather data to make your assertion. Claiming "communism" isn't capitalism won't work as first, there was no communist state ever in existence, and secondly the entire concept of Marxism is just another form of capitalism.
"blame"....interesting...the "guilt" word works its way in there, no? So your assertion is that capitalism is the only system?
Why bother to call it out then? Everyone is capitalist - I still believe the issue is the species, not their unified economic system used by every culture on earth from the beginning of time.
The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool.
They lay. They rotted. They turned
Around occasionally.
Bits of flesh dropped off them from
Time to time.
And sank into the pool's mire.
They also smelt a great deal.
Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
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Serene Repose
2926
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Posted - 2016.09.07 16:45:12 -
[59] - Quote
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:Serene Repose wrote:It is interesting you use the word "blame". That is a western civ/capitalist indoctrinated useage. There isn't ample evidence to the contrary as no significant method to organize modern civilization has existed long enough to gather data to make your assertion. Claiming "communism" isn't capitalism won't work as first, there was no communist state ever in existence, and secondly the entire concept of Marxism is just another form of capitalism.
"blame"....interesting...the "guilt" word works its way in there, no? So your assertion is that capitalism is the only system? Why bother to call it out then? Everyone is capitalist - I still believe the issue is the species, not their unified economic system used by every culture on earth from the beginning of time. You say it's human nature. I disagree. I also say you have no proof that it is, you just satisfy yourself that it is...after gleaning what information you think "will suit your purposes."
We must accommodate the idiocracy.
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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3932
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Posted - 2016.09.07 16:57:51 -
[60] - Quote
If you are willing to scam, lie and cheat others in something as trivial as a video game, what are you willing to do when real money is at stake?
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
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