Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7] 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 .. 14 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Dominique Vasilkovsky
Techmart Industries
|
Posted - 2007.04.12 10:04:00 -
[181]
Originally by: Kaylee Zara Dominique, if the number of datacores used is involved (which I'm not convinced of yet) I'd suggest that your BaseChance must still involve some form of modifier based on the type of job ship/module/rig the job uses.
That's an interesting idea, didn't think of it when I did my formulas above.
Originally by: Kaylee Zara Reasoning: Not allowing for a difference between ships and modules means that Frigate invention jobs, which need 2 of each core, and Module invention jobs (also the 2 of each core variety) would have the same base chance. This seems very unlikely given we know ship invention is supposed to be harder.
The question is, is it harder to invent a frig than a 2+2 core module with no meta item? The meta items seems to influence a lot.
Originally by: Kaylee Zara Whether the number of datacores has an effect or not I think the base chance is based on the Data Interface that the job requires. This would give different base chances for rigs, modules and ships. This may or may not be modified by the number of datacores.
It would be great if Vladimir Tinakin could test frig invention on SiSi using the same skills as during the Hulk test. Should point us in the right direction if the number of cores matter or not. I would do it myself if it wasn't for my account there had all research slots stuck "in use" without a chance to clear the jobs.
Originally by: Kaylee Zara I also think those numbers are far too high at the top end for those formulas to be anywhere close. I'm only sitting at around 60% success with 2x2 datacore jobs using a meta level 0 item and +1.3 decryptor.
What skill level and how many runs did you do?
Feedback like this is great, the more data, the better.
Screw t3. I'm waiting for t20. Just like t2, but it's free. - xArmagedunx |
Kaylee Zara
|
Posted - 2007.04.12 12:03:00 -
[182]
Edited by: Kaylee Zara on 12/04/2007 13:52:47 Edited by: Kaylee Zara on 12/04/2007 13:51:54 This replaces my previous numbers and is not in addition to them:
I've discarded the first set from my previous post as I'm not going to be doing more jobs using those options and 2 attempts are never going to say much.
Module A (3 of each datacore needed) Skills: 4/4/3 Decryptor: 1.3 Item Meta Level: 4 (Best Named version of Module A) Successes: 24 Attempts: 25 Success Rate: 96.00%
Module B (2 of each datacore needed) Skills: 4/4/3 Decryptor: 1.3 Item Meta Level: 0 (Base T1 version of Module B) Successes: 8 Attempts: 13 Success Rate: 61.54%
I realise I'm jumping to conclusions when I say 60% given my sample size but we shall see as I get more jobs done whether I am correct or not. I have materials for my next 30 attempts of module B (however my skills are now 4/4/4) and my next 20 of module A. I was hoping that A and B would eventually give me an idea of exactly how much of a difference there is between using a meta level 0 and 4 item but the possibility of the number datacores effecting chance throws a bit of a spanner in that idea.
I should start turning over more invention jobs in the next few days as the mid-length ME research jobs I had going before I started Inventing finish up. That will give me more slots to work with . I've only been inventing with 2 slots so far.
I would try doing some frigates with the same options as Module B however my (admittedly highly conservative) numbers say I need a 75% success rate to break even which I can't see happening and I'm in this to make money not loose it.
|
Vladimir Tinakin
Caldari Hadean Drive Yards Archaean Cooperative
|
Posted - 2007.04.12 23:30:00 -
[183]
I'll try to invent a series of Taranis on singularity, to contrast the Hulk.
As an aside, I got lucky with my latest hulk inventions and scored a 10-run. I get to eat well tonight!
Also as another aside, when pricing out the T2 components needed to build said 10 hulks (at -8ME! ), I found that it was cheaper by HALF to build them from the advanced materials. Interesting stuff. ----------------------------------------------- Adm Vladimir Tinakin CFO Hadean Drive Yards |
Dominique Vasilkovsky
Techmart Industries
|
Posted - 2007.04.13 00:09:00 -
[184]
Originally by: Vladimir Tinakin I'll try to invent a series of Taranis on singularity, to contrast the Hulk.
As an aside, I got lucky with my latest hulk inventions and scored a 10-run. I get to eat well tonight!
Also as another aside, when pricing out the T2 components needed to build said 10 hulks (at -8ME! ), I found that it was cheaper by HALF to build them from the advanced materials. Interesting stuff.
Do you still have a 1/6 success rate in total for the Hulks?
I'm trying to put together a spreadsheet with success/fail data for invention so all number crunchers have an easy to access source to use. Unfortunately I will need a little bit more detail than provided soo far in this thread. Don't worry, I don't really care what you invented just what the input data and outcome was.
I would be greatful if you could post the following data:
Skill level (Encryption/DC1/DC2): Interface (Ship/Tuner/Data): Number of datacores from one group: Decryptor (0.4x/0.8x/1.0x/1.1x/1.3x): Item meta level (0/1/2/3/4): Attempts: Successes:
Thanks
Screw t3. I'm waiting for t20. Just like t2, but it's free. - xArmagedunx |
Nedolzna Ovcica
OCForums
|
Posted - 2007.04.13 09:01:00 -
[185]
Edited by: Nedolzna Ovcica on 13/04/2007 09:00:48 Skill level (Encryption/DC1/DC2): 4/4/4 Interface (Ship/Tuner/Data): data Number of datacores from one group: 2 Decryptor (0.4x/0.8x/1.0x/1.1x/1.3x): 1.3x Item meta level (0/1/2/3/4): 4 Attempts: 19 Successes: 11
Skill level (Encryption/DC1/DC2): 4/5/4 Interface (Ship/Tuner/Data): ship Number of datacores from one group: 8 Decryptor (0.4x/0.8x/1.0x/1.1x/1.3x): 1.3x Item meta level (0/1/2/3/4): t1 ship is meta 1 i guess? Attempts: 6 Successes: 2
btw, how is that, people get different number of runs... i alway got 14 run ME -7 PE -2 for modules and 5 run ME -7 PE -2 for ships...
do u use max run BPCs or no?
|
Dominique Vasilkovsky
Techmart Industries
|
Posted - 2007.04.13 10:17:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Nedolzna Ovcica
btw, how is that, people get different number of runs... i alway got 14 run ME -7 PE -2 for modules and 5 run ME -7 PE -2 for ships...
do u use max run BPCs or no?
Check post 49-51 in this thread regarding the formula as input runs and decryptor affect the final runs.
Screw t3. I'm waiting for t20. Just like t2, but it's free. - xArmagedunx |
Aidyn Avery
|
Posted - 2007.04.13 18:50:00 -
[187]
27 hulk tries...here is my data:
Skill level (Encryption/DC1/DC2):4/4/4 Interface (Ship/Tuner/Data): ship Number of datacores from one group:8 Decryptor (0.4x/0.8x/1.0x/1.1x/1.3x):.4 Item meta level (0/1/2/3/4):ship item(dont know how that counts) Attempts:27 Successes:2
|
Aidyn Avery
|
Posted - 2007.04.13 18:51:00 -
[188]
btw, are people getting similiar results to me with ship .4 decryptors?
|
Samhein
|
Posted - 2007.04.13 20:14:00 -
[189]
Originally by: Aidyn Avery btw, are people getting similiar results to me with ship .4 decryptors?
Your results jive with the estimated success rate of ship invention. People were guessing a base rate of around 20% with level 4 skills. With a .4 success modifier that gives about an 8% chance of success with that decryptor. 27 * .08 ='s and expected number of successes of 2.16. So that is about what you would expect on average with a 20% base rate.
|
Pizi
Gallente
|
Posted - 2007.04.13 20:23:00 -
[190]
Originally by: Aidyn Avery btw, are people getting similiar results to me with ship .4 decryptors?
with 444 in skills and that decryptor im at 12 trys 0 success _______________________________________________ EVEpedia[Deutsch/German] add
|
|
Dominique Vasilkovsky
Techmart Industries
|
Posted - 2007.04.13 22:27:00 -
[191]
Originally by: Pizi
Originally by: Aidyn Avery btw, are people getting similiar results to me with ship .4 decryptors?
with 444 in skills and that decryptor im at 12 trys 0 success
Is that with or without T1 ships used? What size ships?
I should have 20 ship attempts completed by Sunday as well and with a bit of luck CCP might sort out my stuck jobs on SiSi next week for some more in depth testing.
Screw t3. I'm waiting for t20. Just like t2, but it's free. - xArmagedunx |
Kaylee Zara
|
Posted - 2007.04.14 00:05:00 -
[192]
Updating Module B (one skill has leveled up so this is in addition to my previous Module B data) and adding data for Module C.
Module B (2 of each datacore needed) Skills: 4/4/4 Decryptor: 1.3 Item Meta Level: 0 (Base T1 version of Module B) Successes: 3 Attempts: 7 Success Rate: 42.86%
Module C (2 of each datacore needed) Skills: 4/4/3 Decryptor: 1.3 Item Meta Level: 2 Successes: 10 Attempts: 19 Success Rate: 52.63%
|
Phasics
|
Posted - 2007.04.14 08:47:00 -
[193]
Edited by: Phasics on 14/04/2007 08:45:53 Has anyone consider that skills may be like skill for earning RP ?
and that getting that final 5th level of the skill give the biggest boost to the RP/Day
could somthing similar be happening here , I've yet to see much data from people with 5/5/5 or even 4/5/5
also has anyone done testing without decryptors ? from the numbers I would be guess the best outcome would be 10run with -4ME -4PE and a 1x success chance.
migth save people some iskies trying without decrptors ?
|
Dominique Vasilkovsky
Techmart Industries
|
Posted - 2007.04.14 14:31:00 -
[194]
Originally by: Phasics also has anyone done testing without decryptors ? from the numbers I would be guess the best outcome would be 10run with -4ME -4PE and a 1x success chance.
migth save people some iskies trying without decrptors ?
That is true for modules if you use max run BPCs, however without a decryptor you will only get a 1run BPC.
Screw t3. I'm waiting for t20. Just like t2, but it's free. - xArmagedunx |
Pizi
Gallente
|
Posted - 2007.04.14 17:54:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Dominique Vasilkovsky
Originally by: Pizi
Originally by: Aidyn Avery btw, are people getting similiar results to me with ship .4 decryptors?
with 444 in skills and that decryptor im at 12 trys 0 success
Is that with or without T1 ships used? What size ships?
I should have 20 ship attempts completed by Sunday as well and with a bit of luck CCP might sort out my stuck jobs on SiSi next week for some more in depth testing.
i think on 2 jobs i used a covetor rest is without _______________________________________________ EVEpedia[Deutsch/German] add
|
Qual
Gallente Cornexant Research
|
Posted - 2007.04.14 19:46:00 -
[196]
Originally by: Phasics Edited by: Phasics on 14/04/2007 08:45:53 Has anyone consider that skills may be like skill for earning RP ?
and that getting that final 5th level of the skill give the biggest boost to the RP/Day
could somthing similar be happening here , I've yet to see much data from people with 5/5/5 or even 4/5/5
also has anyone done testing without decryptors ? from the numbers I would be guess the best outcome would be 10run with -4ME -4PE and a 1x success chance.
migth save people some iskies trying without decrptors ?
Doing jobs without decryptors is indeed a good choise on some modules provided you use max run BPC. And yes, you get the numbers you mention. On ships its less usefull as you only get one run.
And, he, he, all my jobs are 5/5/5. I'm all maxed in R&D/invention skills. Doesn't seem to give me significantly better numbers though.
"The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf |
Mazhius
Observatory
|
Posted - 2007.04.14 20:31:00 -
[197]
Skill level (Encryption/DC1/DC2):3/3/1 Interface (Ship/Tuner/Data): data Number of datacores from one group:2 Decryptor (0.4x/0.8x/1.0x/1.1x/1.3x):1.1 Item meta level (0/1/2/3/4): 4 Attempts:19 Successes:10
Skill level (Encryption/DC1/DC2):3/4/3 Interface (Ship/Tuner/Data): data Number of datacores from one group:2 Decryptor (0.4x/0.8x/1.0x/1.1x/1.3x):1.1 Item meta level (0/1/2/3/4): 3 Attempts:16 Successes:9
|
Dominique Vasilkovsky
Techmart Industries
|
Posted - 2007.04.15 00:56:00 -
[198]
Done some invention myself today:
Skill level (Encryption/DC1/DC2): 4/2/2 Interface (Ship/Tuner/Data): Ship Number of datacores from one group: 8 Decryptor (0.4x/0.8x/1.0x/1.1x/1.3x): 0.4x Item meta level (0/1/2/3/4): no ship Attempts: 18 Successes: 4
Screw t3. I'm waiting for t20. Just like t2, but it's free. - xArmagedunx |
Mrs Amadeus
|
Posted - 2007.04.17 01:59:00 -
[199]
This is before they reset singularity today with updated skills.
Skills= 4/3/3 (amarr encryptions/amarr starship/mech eng)
all jobs were done with no ship and no decryptor.
Punisher
9/48 success/failure.
4 retribution/5 vengence BPCs.
|
Cold Senthen
|
Posted - 2007.04.17 07:28:00 -
[200]
Skill level (Encryption/DC1/DC2):3/4/3 Interface (Ship/Tuner/Data): data Number of datacores from one group:2 Decryptor (0.4x/0.8x/1.0x/1.1x/1.3x): no decryptor Item meta level (0/1/2/3/4): 4 Attempts:5 Successes:4 Rate: 80 %
Done some other invention jobs and personally i would say that decryptor are for ships "only" :) You can normally cover the few fales with the succesful jobs
|
|
Kaylee Zara
|
Posted - 2007.04.17 08:00:00 -
[201]
Updating Module A
Module A (3 of each datacore needed) Skills: 4/4/3 Decryptor: 1.3 Item Meta Level: 4 (Best Named version of Module A) Successes: 61 Attempts: 68 Success Rate: 89.71%
|
Yarrr Rabble
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2007.04.17 15:37:00 -
[202]
Ship Invention (8 of each datacore needed) Skills: 4/4/4 Decryptor: 1.3 Item Meta Level: 1 (Ships...duh!!) Successes: 4 Attempts: 7 Success Rate: 57.00%
Yes, 7 tries isn't enough to draw conclusions...still nice though --------------------------------------------- Originally Posted by Dianabolic God I suck!!! |
Dominique Vasilkovsky
Techmart Industries
|
Posted - 2007.04.17 15:53:00 -
[203]
Originally by: Yarrr Rabble
Item Meta Level: 1 (Ships...duh!!)
Don't bet on the ships making a difference as they don't have a meta value in the database.
Nice outcome soo far though.
Screw t3. I'm waiting for t20. Just like t2, but it's free. - xArmagedunx |
Vladimir Tinakin
Caldari Hadean Drive Yards Archaean Cooperative
|
Posted - 2007.04.17 22:38:00 -
[204]
Well, the large interceptor run on Singularity got nuked from the DB refresh. Thats the bad news.
Good news is that the new research POS is just about up on SiSi and I should be able to pound out the tests again within a few days.
Going to try 30-40 runs of taranis naked, then 30-40 with a ship. ----------------------------------------------- Adm Vladimir Tinakin CFO Hadean Drive Yards |
Arkhat
|
Posted - 2007.04.17 23:47:00 -
[205]
First i would like to thank Vladimir Tinakin who initiated a very interesting thread, and those who brought numbers to this attempt of understanding. Second, sorry for my bad english, but you may already have noticed that :p Third, (let's make my post a bit interesting), i would like to say that i totally agree with the theory about a tweaked success ratio for each ship/module, and i am pretty sure that hulk jobs have been drastically nerfed about 3-4 days ago. Before that, i tried 67 invention jobs on covetor. My skills were (and still are) 4/4/4. 10 jobs succeded, meaning 15% success ratio. From the 3-4 last days, i tried 24 jobs and got only 1 success, meaning barely 4% success. I would add that failure messages for last 24 jobs was very very often "never close to a solution" or "out of the league", where, previously, i didnt get them so often.
(all attempts were made with 1 run cov bpc, symbiotic figures, 1 covetor as base item, if you want know. Maybe did they recently lower success modifier for symbiotic, if there is no tweaked success ratio per ship/module ?)
|
Vladimir Tinakin
Caldari Hadean Drive Yards Archaean Cooperative
|
Posted - 2007.04.18 03:48:00 -
[206]
Symbiotic figures takes whatever chance you have, and slashes it in half (actually a bit more--0.4 multiplier).
It is feasible that you're just getting a bad series of 'rolls'--whatever random number generator (or however they're determining success) CCP uses seems prone to streaks of wins and losses.
It is possible that they're tweaking certain modules/ships, but there is nothing more than circumstantial evidence for that, that could be explained by "bad luck" with the dice roller.
To be continued, I suppose... ----------------------------------------------- Adm Vladimir Tinakin CFO Hadean Drive Yards |
Bermag
Point-Zero
|
Posted - 2007.04.18 08:09:00 -
[207]
How many runs do you get when inventing cloaks with a max run bpc (100)? Is it still 10 base runs or is it lower?
|
ShadowRat
|
Posted - 2007.04.18 12:01:00 -
[208]
Edited by: ShadowRat on 18/04/2007 11:59:04 Ello all again.
More my little coins ... or as some one sugest more clouds ;) (all data is after 1.4.1 and to last database reset) (I use ships data like base for my formulas)
----------------------------------- Last time I start with simply multiplication. Now I know more about this formula from your posts infromation (thx for all :). Problem for develop this, is that ppl send diferent numbers... sometimes very diferent , and we dont know for shure if this is a problem of luck, ppl diversion or missunderstanding, ccp changes and more. SO?! We dont look exactly on NUMBERS but at correlation between NUMBERS.
Lets look at diferent side on this formula:
Succes ratio= (skils_modifier)*(interface_type)+(decryptor_mod-1)/10+(meta_item_mod-1)/10 ALL YOU PUT HERE AND GET BACK->IF YOU GET NUMBERS FROM 1.00 to 1.99 THIS SHOW YOUR SUCCESS RATE 1.00 is 0% 1.99 is 99% LESS OR MORE NUMBERS ARE TRUNCATED TO 1 OR 1.99! (If it is too much for you get better computer)
ok.. now why ...and litle explain.
I.
skils_modifier=(1+encryption_skil*0.03)*(1+science_lev_1*0.01)*(1+science_lev_2*0.01)
I stil wonder if ther is * or +, but this is no mater because of specific build of this formula (read more) Next: One tread sugest that only encryption is taken to it... hmm... maybe :) but this not mach all.
For this ppl: skils_modifier=1+encryption_skil*0.04
But this part may looks like: skils_modifier=1+MAX_level(encryption_skil,scienec_1,science2)*0.04
Whatever you put there for walidation in this formula you get numbers form 1.03 (first) to 1.32 or 1.04 to 1.2 (at last part) You decide if ccp put here more variation or less.. And you can develop own part.
II. Interface type: read more ;) we back here
III. +(decryptor_mod-1)/10 + here is esentional. I wonder why ccp put 0.4. This is HUGE in multiplication reduction of luck... now ppl start to send post with success rate with this decrypton. SO? I look back at invention... and EUREKA :) IN simply word you can get form this part: 0.4->-6% 0.8->-2% 1.0->+0% 1.1->+1% 1.3->+3% This is simply true for ships, because of low variations. In future this can be look like +(decryptor_mod-1)/10*interfacetype_mod2... but we now stop at this....
IV. +(meta_item_mod-1)/10 I use item_meta lev in similiar way like decryptor Let put here someting like: for no item ->0.95 0/or no metalev item->1 1->1.05 2->1.10 3->1.15 4->1.20
True for ships... and for modules it can be +(meta_item_mod-1)/10*interfacetype_mod3 but who knows :)
Now back to II. Interface.... interface ... great mystery :) but we can outsmart this. You must put here base_variation for interface type.... not only for ship, data or tuning... You must take diference from race/faction too! After looking and this ther can be simply 12 base_modificatores... ;) Dont wory I show oyu how oyu can find it...
Example.... Lets use (1+encryption_skil*0.04)*(interface_type)+(decryptor_mod-1)/10+(meta_item_mod-1)/10
Encsci1sci2metadecinterface deviation 1.041.031.030.951xsc11.18752.08% 1.041.041.0411.3xsc21.22502.50% 1.041.021.020.950.4xsc31.11112.78% succesfrom+post
We dont know x.. but lets start witx x=1 for this kind of ship (yes covetors :P)
Encsci1sci2metadecinterface deviation 1.041.031.030.95111.15501.18752.08% 1.041.041.0411.311.19001.22502.50% 1.041.021.020.950.411.09501.11112.78% succesfrom+post close... put x=1.02
Encsci1sci2metadecinterface deviation 1.041.031.030.9511.021.17821.18752.08% 1.041.041.0411.31.021.21321.22502.50% 1.041.021.020.950.41.021.11821.11112.78% succesfrom+post
Yes we are realy close :) And now we can use 1.02 IN THIS FORMULA FOR THIS SHIPS.. and preaty close you get good numbers... put this modifiers into your ship interface...
|
ShadowRat
|
Posted - 2007.04.18 12:06:00 -
[209]
Now maybe my skils formula? ((1+encryption_skil*0.03)*(1+science_lev_1*0.01)*(1+science_lev_2*0.01))*(interface_type)+(decryptor_mod-1)/10+(meta_item_mod-1)/10
and x=1.08
Encsci1sci2metadecinterface deviation 1.041.031.030.9511.081.18661.18752.08% 1.041.041.0411.31.081.24491.22502.50% 1.041.021.020.950.41.081.10361.11112.78% succesfrom+post
You got more variations... but as can you see formula match too. SO?
How find yours numbers? 1. Choose you formula. 2. Put at last ONE invention succes rate of THE SAME INTERFACE!! More you put -> less mistakes you do. 3. Try get interface modyficator puting number that match posted succes rate (or your own) with deviation. IF you get less deviation at one 'row' start think about this row like base... After few trys you got good number. 4. Now you get YOUR VALID interface base multipler! USE IT FOR ALL SAME INTERFACE TYPE AND SAME FORMULA :)
What is all this for? 1. You can simply develop all kind of formula you can get into mind. 2. You never argue with other that eg. skils are more valid then meta_item or etc... Simply rebuild formula and develop new interface base multipler. 3. YOU ARE NEVER BE NUMBERS SLAVE!
4. For more clauds into your mind :P
Thx again all for good thread and numbers.
P.S. Do at home match for modules :)
|
Svanna Gulmi
|
Posted - 2007.04.18 12:43:00 -
[210]
Out of interest, is it always best to invent mod bpc's from 1500run copies? i'm hoping to get into invention, i have most skills so far and have been making LOTS of bpc's (mostly 300's)
Should i only work from 1500's?
Is it going to be worth inventing with just datacores, interfaces and a best named mod? i don't think i'll have the time to get dycriptors.....
What is the maximum run T2 bpc i'm likely to get like this?
Thanks
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7] 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 .. 14 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |