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Dragon Lord
Caldari Helion Production Labs
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Posted - 2007.02.24 19:10:00 -
[1]
At the moment the biggest problem is the fact a mission runner is effectivly free lunch in low sec to any small group of pirates with a scanner. Its is nearly 100% risk free for mission gankers to kill there targets, i mean for gods sake they dont even have to worry about the mission npcs.
Yes u can scan but that doesnt stop snoop probs, yes u can alline but try that when u gotta get to a gate 100kms away. Yes u can run missions in groups but that has many logistic problems and many players like to play solo.
Anyway hope that covers most of the pirate retorts, anyway to the point. Mission ganking is maximum reward minimum risk where as mission running in low sec is high risk crap reward.
Why crap reward? well when u get ganked every few days and loose a few 100m in ship and equip u do the math.
Solution? simple make it risky for pirates to enter missions and attack mission runners. How? simple if a group of pirates find a deadspace gate and there is a single mission runner then only 1 pirate may enter and engage. If there are 2 mission runner in the deadspace then 2 pirates may enter etc etc etc.
Now secondly if u enter a deadspace mission u should get attacked by npcs, the mission runner has to deal with them so why not a mission ganker. Maybe half the remaining npcs could be programmed to attack a player not ganged to the mission runner ie the pirate.
Lastly if u enter a deadspace mission area and ur not in the mission runners gang u shouldnt be able to warp out until ur targets dead.
These above changes would finally address the risk vs reward and pvp aspect of mission running and mission ganking.
A mission ship would suddenly be a much more formidable opponent and gankers would need to be prepaired for the fight of there lives instead of the most simple of ganks.
And those jucie faction bs's which are immense cash cows for any gank squad lucky enough to get one would be far harder to kill which is as it should be given the potential reward.
Well anyway thats my ideas flame away :)
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FXSlacker
Gallente Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.02.24 19:29:00 -
[2]
"Solution? simple make it risky for pirates to enter missions and attack mission runners. How? simple if a group of pirates find a deadspace gate and there is a single mission runner then only 1 pirate may enter and engage. If there are 2 mission runner in the deadspace then 2 pirates may enter etc etc etc."
It already is risky for the pirates to enter missions and attack the mission runners. Why do you think they "GROUPED" up? The found it risky so they made a gang. They have "solved" the risk problem for themselves.
Now, as you point out you are in low sec running missions. You expect a fair fight and are demanding one. Why take the risk of mission running in low sec then? You want the rewards. The is a risk vs reward issue then.
That being the case, why not play smart? If the mission takes you to low sec, refuse it! You have that choice. If you chose to run a misson in low sec, accept that you need to take precautions. Run with a fellow misson runner. Work as a team. Want to run solo? Use your eve map and look for problems in the mission system. Any ganks there recently? How many players in space? Any pods been blown up in the last hour or 24 hours?
The tools to minimize risk are available. Use them. You were ganked anyway? Well, it is a game for many players and it is up to you to balance risk vs reward.
FXSlacker
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Avaleric
Amarr The Eschatologists
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Posted - 2007.02.24 19:37:00 -
[3]
Uhm, if your agent is in lo-sec, then ALL missions is in lo-sec. You do NOT get to chose that. And no, a mission ship fighting off 12 NPC battleships and escorts, is no match whatsover for a single PVP ship.
Best solution mention is to let half the NPC ships attack the newcomers. Then it gets interesting...
- Ignorance is bliss... |
Dragon Lord
Caldari Helion Production Labs
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Posted - 2007.02.24 19:40:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Dragon Lord on 24/02/2007 19:40:03 Yes well im sorry explain what risk mission gankers expose themselves 2. Geez web scram jam with 1 ship pwn th hell out of ur target with the rest. Simple and easy zero risk max reward. Anyway it more about the new lvl5,6 and 7 mission that will only be in low sec that concerns me. And anyway the rewards are actually far greater out in 0.0 alliance territory where it is easy to gank up. And yes i have been in a big 0.0 alliance. These missions in 0.0 are next to risk free, ur have loads of support in the same system and u have plenty of people to warn u of incoming enemies. This kind of solution is more for low sec where the risk is far far greater than the reward.
I run missions in high sec only and i do ok isk wise, i dont intend running lvl5,6 and 7s except if im in a large alliance deep in friendly territory.
People always bang on about risk vs reward. But im sorry mission ganking atm is far far to low risk for the potential reward. All u need to do is send a covert ops into the deadspace see if u like the odds then either warp away or warp in for an easy kill.
I just suggested a few possible things that would make it more risk for the reward for mission gankers. Afterall low sec shouldnt be safe even for mission gankers.
Any other ideas welcome
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Hakera
Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.24 19:46:00 -
[5]
there is no need for a billion threads on the same topic.
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Redpants
Gallente Dead Eagle North Star Confederation
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Posted - 2007.02.24 19:50:00 -
[6]
Wow OP your ideas are just a hornets nest of potential loopholes and exploits. You know what? Instead of CCP having the responsibility of keeping you alive in low sec, why don't you keep your eye on local and your overview? And maybe put an offensive or defensive module or two on your fancy ship when you have to run low sec missions.
But what's that I hear from other threads about the same issue? You shouldn't have to keep your head on a swivel when playing this game? Yes you do.
Lastly, OP, mission gankers and mission ganking are not the daily experience in EVE. They are the exceptions not the norm.
BESIDES I like the fact that I can be found on a mission. You know why? Because it reminds me that I'm really in the universe and not sectioned off by some game mechanic. It adds to my suspension of dispbelief in the game world.
_____________________________________________________________________ "My once immaculate white pants are now stained from the weak and innocent. I don't wear red." |
Shozo
Sanguinum Fratres
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Posted - 2007.02.24 19:59:00 -
[7]
what don't you and every other person understand?
it is LOW SECURITY...it is SUPPOSED TO BE DANGEROUS. PERIOD.
that's it. nothing more, nothing less. don't like it? can't handle it?
tough. deal with it. i know this is harsh but, seriously. should i go whine about being ganked in 0.0 while ratting or running a mission? no. why? because it's 0.0. period.
also, it's easy to stay hidden running missions in low sec. and no, i will not tell you how.
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Druid R
Murder of Crows E N I G M A
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Posted - 2007.02.24 20:04:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Druid R on 24/02/2007 20:02:42 why should the npc's attack the pirate, hes helping them after all...
and do u have any idea how hard it is to catch somebody with probes in a mission now? pointless.
so we adapt and catch them at the gate b4 they go in...
Low sec isnt generally a place for solo activity, nor should it be.
If i pirate on my own my chances of dying are very high, if u mission ***** on your own in low sec your chances of dying are high.
if u cant see the solution to this then i think its time u quit eve and went back to school
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Heinrich Klaus
Internet Tough Guys Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.24 20:09:00 -
[9]
Probing is overrated, some of you mission running jerkoffs need to try it out sometime.
Honestly, if you just pay attention to your scanner you can tell when someone is probing you.
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space bear
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.02.24 20:31:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Shozo what don't you and every other person understand?
it is LOW SECURITY...it is SUPPOSED TO BE DANGEROUS. PERIOD.
that's it. nothing more, nothing less. don't like it? can't handle it?
tough. deal with it. i know this is harsh but, seriously. should i go whine about being ganked in 0.0 while ratting or running a mission? no. why? because it's 0.0. period.
also, it's easy to stay hidden running missions in low sec. and no, i will not tell you how.
0.0 is not the problem, it's low sec
Missioners are hands bound for now and there's no reason at all that "bad" guys should actually have more advantages in low sec than "good" ones as the system is currently running. So, let pilots with neg sec status be shooted at without security hits in low sec.
Want more fights ? Sure, let's have more fights... And not more easy kills. Unless the "Risk versus rewards" mantra is only meant for the others...
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Shozo
Sanguinum Fratres
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Posted - 2007.02.24 20:55:00 -
[11]
Originally by: space bear
0.0 is not the problem, it's low sec
Missioners are hands bound for now and there's no reason at all that "bad" guys should actually have more advantages in low sec than "good" ones as the system is currently running. So, let pilots with neg sec status be shooted at without security hits in low sec.
Want more fights ? Sure, let's have more fights... And not more easy kills. Unless the "Risk versus rewards" mantra is only meant for the others...
you completely missed the point of what i said. it was not 0.0 specific.
low security and 0.0 are dangerous. people can and will find you and kill you. plan on it, just like everyone else plans on it. i never venture in low security without planning for the possibility of pirates making an attempt to kill me and *gasp* i have not been ganked in low security before. there is absolutely no need to change things for mission runners. you go to low sec you need to watch your ass with friends, keep an eye on the scanner, watch local, etc. can't do any of that? tough. stay out of low security if you don't want to take the risks. just as was previously stated in this thread. the tools are there...use them. it's YOUR fault for being ganked in low security. no one else. you made the choice to leave high security where you are protected...hence the term "high security" versus "low security".
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Ryas Nia
Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter
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Posted - 2007.02.24 21:21:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Ryas Nia on 24/02/2007 21:18:57 Edited by: Ryas Nia on 24/02/2007 21:18:36
Originally by: Dragon Lord At the moment the biggest problem is the fact a mission runner is effectivly free lunch in low sec to any small group of pirates with a scanner. Its is nearly 100% risk free for mission gankers to kill there targets, i mean for gods sake they dont even have to worry about the mission npcs.
This is far from the biggest problem and you are so wrong it makes me cry inside. Pirates with a scanner will NEVER find your mission. Even with probes there is a very very low chance of them scanning you down. Supposing they did they then have to send in a tackling frig to hold your ship while the rest of the ships fly 100km across the mission to kill you. Yes your right we dont have to worry about the rats, and i dont like that its one thing CCP needs to change aggression rules are broken.
Originally by: Dragon Lord Yes u can scan but that doesnt stop snoop probs, yes u can alline but try that when u gotta get to a gate 100kms away. Yes u can run missions in groups but that has many logistic problems and many players like to play solo.
MMO == Massively multilayer, This game centers around groups, corporations and alliances, if you dont like playing with other people then you are CHOOSING to give the pirates that fight in gangs the advantage. Thats right your making a choice and its giving them the advantage.
Originally by: Dragon Lord Anyway hope that covers most of the pirate retorts, anyway to the point. Mission ganking is maximum reward minimum risk where as mission running in low sec is high risk crap reward.
So your telling me that you cant kill an after burning frigate before it gets to you? And there is very little risk in low sec.
Originally by: Dragon Lord Why crap reward? well when u get ganked every few days and loose a few 100m in ship and equip u do the math.
Lets see... last time i lost a mission running ship to a gank was... o NEVER. I have NEVER lost any ships because i scout, watch local, have intel channels, and never fly solo. I have had the same Raven for 9mths now.
Originally by: Dragon Lord Solution? simple make it risky for pirates to enter missions and attack mission runners. How? simple if a group of pirates find a deadspace gate and there is a single mission runner then only 1 pirate may enter and engage. If there are 2 mission runner in the deadspace then 2 pirates may enter etc etc etc.
umm NO
Originally by: Dragon Lord Now secondly if u enter a deadspace mission u should get attacked by npcs, the mission runner has to deal with them so why not a mission ganker. Maybe half the remaining npcs could be programmed to attack a player not ganged to the mission runner ie the pirate.
NO but yes CCP needs to change aggro rules.
Originally by: Dragon Lord Lastly if u enter a deadspace mission area and ur not in the mission runners gang u shouldnt be able to warp out until ur targets dead.
No
Originally by: Dragon Lord These above changes would finally address the risk vs reward and pvp aspect of mission running and mission ganking.
there is no risk reward problem with missions, its all in your head.
Originally by: Dragon Lord A mission ship would suddenly be a much more formidable opponent and gankers would need to be prepaired for the fight of there lives instead of the most simple of ganks.
Nothing is stopping your ships from being formidable opponents now, just fit for pvp that way you will never be caught off guard.
Originally by: Dragon Lord And those jucie faction bs's which are immense cash cows for any gank squad lucky enough to get one would be far harder to kill which is as it should be given the potential reward.
Well anyway thats my ideas flame away :)
Have you ever lived in low sec? its perfectly safe given reasonable precautions and some brains.
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Auron Shadowbane
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Posted - 2007.02.24 23:15:00 -
[13]
key issue are agression rules and how missions encounters work.
any or you great pirates tried to fly a mission in pvp fit? I think, you didnt.
The problem is that the missions dont require player skill, but plain, brute, directed force. Get 85-95% resist in 1-2 damage types and good repair values and then slowly pick on the hordes of npcs.
problem is, that gankers arent as dumb as npcs and so they will use the damage type you have only your base resist and you're doomed.
splitting aggro would be one way to solve it (well the npcs attack the first ship to enter, without asking, why should they ask when the 2nd or 10th enters?) but imho the way missions work should change.
make them able to be "damage-tanked". zoom in, fire away all you have and hope for your hp (and maybe one booster/plate) to hold until all is dead. by the way you could also make em more fun, so pirates start killing npcs instead of players, cause npcs dont smacktalk :P.
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Kruugore
Minmatar Vigilant Justice
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Posted - 2007.02.24 23:58:00 -
[14]
The problem as I see is is that 90% of EVE is PVE.
And you can't force PVE players to PVP if they don't want to.
It will make them quit if they are alienated.
Mr. K VIGILANT JUSTICE CEO/FOUNDER EVE Vault, A Great Community |
Dragon Lord
Caldari Helion Production Labs
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Posted - 2007.02.25 01:15:00 -
[15]
Well to reply i havent run many missions in low sec and when i have i haven't been ganked and just for thr record snoop probes can find u from outside scan range. And do u have any idea how long a bs takes to lock a frig, thats if he doesnt sensor damp u or jam u. Oh and btw all u need is 3 snoop probes to locate a deadspace u only need to be within a few 1000kms and the deadspace pocket will drop u right on the gate. For those who say they have never been ganked or scanned down are either pirates hoping for more easy meals or very very lucky. All im saying is there should at least be some risk to mission gankers. And responing to fit for pvp, ftw? u ever flown lvl4s a pvp setup gets eaten alive period.
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PredatorPT
New Dawn Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.25 02:49:00 -
[16]
Seems the new trend of forum whines is "omg mission nerf, not going to low-sec, i'm quitting!".
First, i'd just like to clarify that i have run L4 missions in low-sec for quite a bit of time, including after revelations was deployed.
First of all, L4's are NOT getting nerfed. Read this Oveur post.
So no, you don't want to go to low-sec, you don't go, simple. Your source of income won't even be affected much by this, as only the most difficult L4's are getting changed over to L5.
Now, my opinion on things is that people find low-sec to be much more dangerous that it really is. I won't say it's safe, as i'd be lying, but most of the times, it's way better to carefully pick a good missioning system instead of instantly running to the nearest L4 low-sec uber-quality caldari navy agent over there. Remember, if you are predictable, pirates will know where to look for you. So, instead of going for that awesome agent with +1337 quality, perhaps it's better to work for a +10 in a less popular area, don't you agree? You don't make as much ISK, but you save a lot on the ships you don't lose.
After finding a nice low-sec system to work in, you can take extra precautions to ensure you'll never lose a ship out there. The first thing you should learn to work with is the scanner. After some practice you'll be able to know if someone is trying to probe down your mission location. Additionally, on encounter missions you should try to be always on the move, because if someone probes you down, with a covert ops for example, there will be a delay from the cov ops ship to position itself near you and his friends to warp in on top of you, so since you're moving you'll probably be out of scram range by the time they get there. Of course, you'll also need to get rid of the webbing/scramming NPC's as soon as possible so they don't become your cause of death when the pirates come knocking. On deadspace, things are a bit easier to manage. Assuming you are through the 1st stage already, setting the scanner to just a few hundred kilometers will let you know if there is someone in the previous stage on his way to you. You should always move as further as possible from the position the acceleration gates drop you on, to avoid having a pirate landing right on top of you.
That covers precautions to take when doing a mission. When flying your ship through low-sec systems gate-to-gate, use an alt of a secondary account about 2 jumps ahead of you to scout for gatecamps. If you only have 1 account, create an alt and check your route before flying with the mission ship. It takes time, but better safe than sorry. Also, don't move your ship around at regular times, be as random as possible. As i said before, predictability makes it easier for pirates to catch you.
All in all, you may think all these extra precautions aren't worth the effort because there isn't much difference in income and there's risk of ship loss, but when L5/L6/L7 hit TQ you'll wish you'd be able to do them, and regret the fact that you didn't move to low-sec and "get used to it" before. Low-sec doesn't automatically mean you'll run into non-consensual pvp, just keeping alert and using the tools at your disposal will have you avoid almost all potential ship losses you may run into.
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Taedrin
Gallente Mercatoris Technologies
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Posted - 2007.02.25 03:55:00 -
[17]
Right now, it is worth it to run missions in low sec. I don't know how it is compared to high sec, but right now, the reward is greater than the risk. I can pay off my phoon and fittings (including insurance payout and reinsure cost) in 2-3 mission runs, presuming they are "good" missions with lots of bounties. When bounties are removed, if mission rewards aren't boosted, it will take me 20-30 mission runs.
In order for mission running in low sec to be worth it, I can not be killed by pirates (or rats!) more than once every 20-30 missions. This is too much risk for such little reward. Oh sure, we may get a bunch of modules. However, most of the stuff you get from level 4 missions are crappy T1 modules. Sometimes you get lucky and get a really good T1 named. But for 99% of the wrecks you loot, there's just ammo and bad T1 named.
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ScreamingLord Sutch
Hand in Mouth
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Posted - 2007.02.25 04:06:00 -
[18]
Artificial restrictions ftl.
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Forum Alt
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2007.02.25 08:44:00 -
[19]
Telling people to play in a group to avoid getting ganked is kind of dumb. A lot of people think that just because it's an MMO you HAVE to be in a group. Bah that's stupid.
Solo players in MMO's like to play own their own and rely on themselves while interacting with others, NOT depending on them.
Don't get "playing solo" confused with "playing alone". They are not even remotely close to being the same thing.
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Ryas Nia
Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter
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Posted - 2007.02.25 08:56:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Forum Alt Telling people to play in a group to avoid getting ganked is kind of dumb. A lot of people think that just because it's an MMO you HAVE to be in a group. Bah that's stupid.
Solo players in MMO's like to play own their own and rely on themselves while interacting with others, NOT depending on them.
Don't get "playing solo" confused with "playing alone". They are not even remotely close to being the same thing.
Playing Solo, playing alone your still making the choice to give people who gang the advantage.
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Lucio
Gallente UK Corp Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.02.25 09:16:00 -
[21]
My personal suggestion is to change the way NPC'ing works entirely. Bring it in line with how PvP behaves and at the same time, cut down severely on the number of opponents you face.
Sure, it'd make the opponents harder, so maybe they use setups that aren't 100% optimum, but if they're flying the same ships we are under the same rules, then they'd be far less of a discrpenacy between mission runners and pirates's setups. ************************************************
Wohoo! No more negative sec status. It's a shame it took me TWO YEARS of Carebearing to get rid of a lousy -1.2 |
Shozo
Sanguinum Fratres
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Posted - 2007.02.25 17:09:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Shozo on 25/02/2007 17:07:45
Originally by: Kruugore The problem as I see is is that 90% of EVE is PVE.
And you can't force PVE players to PVP if they don't want to.
It will make them quit if they are alienated.
you've got that absolutely backwards. EVE is 90% PVP. not the other way around.
also, to everyone else. again. low security and 0.0 have not changed from the moment EVE went gold a few years ago. it has always been unsafe, filled with pirates or pvp'ers, and basically requiring you to be in groups or experienced to run solo. whining about PvE oriented stuff in a PvP centric game is futile. adapt or die.
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Avaleric
Amarr The Eschatologists
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Posted - 2007.02.25 17:09:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Avaleric on 25/02/2007 17:07:33
Originally by: Heinrich Klaus Probing is overrated, some of you mission running jerkoffs need to try it out sometime.
Honestly, if you just pay attention to your scanner you can tell when someone is probing you.
And some of u pirate w*nkers should try doing a lvl 4 mission somtime...
Pay attention to scanner? In the middle of battling 50 ships? U really have no idea what u are talking about, do you..?
- Ignorance is bliss... |
Flaming Lemming
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Posted - 2007.02.25 17:16:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Flaming Lemming on 25/02/2007 17:13:52
Originally by: Shozo
you've got that absolutely backwards. EVE is 90% PVP. not the other way around.
Yeah, check the population distribution again....hmmm mostly in empire, not a lot of pew-pew there. Maybe think before saying something so blatantly false.
edit : fixed a quote error I'm just an Alt....but my main doesn't have a sig either.
a forum thread you need to read |
Shozo
Sanguinum Fratres
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Posted - 2007.02.25 17:27:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Flaming Lemming Edited by: Flaming Lemming on 25/02/2007 17:13:52
Originally by: Shozo
you've got that absolutely backwards. EVE is 90% PVP. not the other way around.
Yeah, check the population distribution again....hmmm mostly in empire, not a lot of pew-pew there. Maybe think before saying something so blatantly false.
edit : fixed a quote error
CCP maintains, quite adamently i might add, that EVE is a PvP centric game. this can easily be seen in the fact they're pushing a number of PvE add-ons for Revelations back to later releases that may or may not ever see the light of day. it is only recently that they made a devblog regarding mission tweaks and even those are just ideas...not concrete things that will absolutely happen. CCP has also outlined what defines PvP in this devblog that actually seemed more like a last minute entry to satisfy the growing number of whining care bears. population density does not determine a single thing. wars happen everywhere. PvP happens everywhere.
---
anyways, back on topic. stay out of low security if you can't handle being probed and killed in a mission.
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