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Lakut
EmpiresMod
Arcane Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.17 22:48:00 -
[151]
Edited by: Lakut on 17/02/2008 22:50:40
Edited by: Lakut on 17/02/2008 22:48:35
Just for the record:
I couldn't care less about the whole topic, as when I'm going more then a few high sec jumps I read forums, browse the general interwebs or something else on my other monitor, while keeping an eye on my EVE window, so I don't really mind about having to travel 20+ jumps manually, apart from not being able to leave the desk and have a smoke, toilet break, etc., which I actually can have while ratting or doing missions (drones, FoF missiles, you name it).
And yes, I acknowledge that WTZ was just implemented to solve the whole insta bookmark issue.
But what I don't get is, why does everybody claim that WTZ AP will make it all too easy and carebearish?
Let's consider:
1) High Sec
a) suicide ganking AFK indus at gates would become different, yes. You just won't wait for incoming AFK haulers anymore, you would have to go for the haulers that just came through the gate you're sitting at and are aligning for the next jump. Plenty of time to tackle, imo.
b) corp warfare might change, but maybe for the better. Less waiting at gates for an (afk or not) war target to come through, more hunting down mission runners, miners and belt ratters.
2) Low Sec Gate Camps. I don't know how many people use AP in low right now, but I guess the number is small and the most part of gate camp kills are done on people coming in through the camped gate, and not people warping to it as they'll just jump on contact (if they don't decide to engage). So if people autopiloted through low instead of manually flying, it wouldn't change much, except that they wouldn't even react properly to a gatecamp (warp to best aligned celestial body, MWD-cloak-align-warp, etc.) if they run into one from the wrong side.
3) 0.0. Use more bubbles, dictors/hictors. I'm sure they were put in the game (and restricted to 0.0) for a reason and completely negate warp to zero and autopiloting if used correctly. Also, AFKing through 0.0 has the added disadvantage of not receiving any intel (if you have access to it), so while that chokepoint might've been clear/blue when you plotted the course it might be red and hot when your autopilot finally arrives there.
Yes, it has a few minor disadvantages for the nonconsensual pewpew faction, but those are imo both slim and counterable. In the end, I think WTZ autopilot would actually benefit the game experience for everyone, because no, warping through a double digit number of systems is not what I call a fun game experience (while some miners actually claim to have fun watching their cargohold fill up, to compare it to what I consider the second most boring activity in EvE), no matter what you say, and I'm really quite glad that I've got a second monitor to do other crap on while I have to do it.
DISCLAIMER: I'm only playing since January and thus haven't actually experienced high sec suicide ganking, corp warfare or low sec gate camps (scouts and/or intel prevented running into them, but I've seen plenty of .0 ones) myself, so if I got a fundamental flaw in my argumentation or basic assumptions about those issues, please feel free to point them out to me.
Not flaming while doing so will be appreciated very much, kthx.
Edited twice for typos.
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You get a wonderful view from the point of no return. |
Hesod Adee
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Posted - 2008.03.10 09:30:00 -
[152]
I support a WTZ autopilot because travelling around in Eve in boring. A WTZ autopilot would let us reduce this bordem by allowing players to do something else while waiting for the journey to complete because they don't have to do a couple of clicks every minute or so.
 Originally by: Mr Xofar
Autopilot WTZ would not only affects safety, in that you are nigh invulnerable
Your probably right on the economic effects. But if the WTZ autopilot would effect travel difficulty in any way, it would actually be more dangerous to use the autopilot than to fly manually.
When warping into a gate we can always enter warp, right click the gate, add as first waypoint, engage autopilot. The autopilot then takes you through and turns itself off on the other side. So unless we have a player stupid enough to warp to 15km in low sec, there shouldn't be much change here. And the stupid players would be caught somewhere else as well.
When talking about ships jumping into a particular gatecamp, lets divide them into 3 groups (Different gatecamps will place the same ships in different groups):
1 - The ships that will get through unless they do something stupid (such as ships that can do a half turn and enter warp before being locked). Both autopilot and manual ships in this group will break through.
2 - The ships that can't break through. These ships will be caught, but the AFK autopilot ships won't be shooting back.
3 - The ships that can get through if the player operating them does the right things. A smart manual player will assess the situation, make the right choice, and get through. A smart player using the autopilot will have problems when he gets decloaked before he even has time to see what ships are involved in the camp.
In situation 1 a WTZ autopilot makes no difference, situation 2 it might reduce the damage the campers receive and in situation 3 the autopilot would make the ship an easier catch.
So why do you say that a WTZ autopilot would make travel safer than manual WTZ ?
Originally by: Me Loonn
[i]Manual WTZ is a manual safety override.
<snip>
Why are pirate groups building ships to this regulation ?
Originally by: Sicks
You sending a ship billions of kilometers across a solar system, and you expect it to be able to stop on a dime? I think when you're manually piloting your ship to stop on 0, its like stopping a car. You hit the brakes a little harder, or a little softer depending on your speed and how far you are from where you want to stop.
After seeing the ships do this perfectly thousands of times without a single failure, why shouldn't we expect it another time ?
As for pushing the drive a bit harder, if you can handle the controls, why can't the computer produce the exact same extra push ?
Originally by: Cerina Natal
It takes actual plysical skill to plot a course directely to the gate, and a calculation the jump computer is incapable of making on its own. Its not advanced enough.
Who is more likely to be able to perform the calculations involved in FTL physics: Thousands of pilots that each had to be trained, or a computer program that just needed to be perfected once before being copied ?
Who do you trust more to perform a quick and accurate math calculation: A human or a modern computer ?
Consider that the autopilot is showing the same precision as a manual flight pilot. It's only inaccurate because it's aiming for a point 15km away from where the manual fight player is aiming.
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Ludi Cross
Real Nice And Laidback Corporation
Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.03.11 16:05:00 -
[153]
Here's my thoughts on this.
Pirates and griefers say, hey, you can't have it all; there needs to be some risk. This game is about risk.
Carebears say, hey, I'm in high-sec, and I'm not playing the game for the risk atm, I just wanna move my stuff, give me a break. Where's the high "security"?
My proposition:
High sec ought to be about higher safety. Nothing is completely safe, but with the high dollar amounts being transacted here, traders shouldn't be so easily scanned and ganked, either.
To accomplish this, make the Autopilot warp to a location on a sliding scale from 0 to 15k, modified inversely by the security of the system.
Example: Autopilot to Jita gate at 0; Autopilot to .3 sec gate at ~10k; Autopilot to .6 gate (still highsec, but less so) at ~5k.
Roleplay justification: Just like RL GPS systems, the US military has differential units and "second tier" resolution that it uses that are not available for use by the general public. In eve terms, there is much more infrasructure installed in higher sec systems, allowing higher precision flight in those areas. Furthermore, the end result coincides with the generally-accepted "intended" meaning of the security rating for a system, and further differentiates even high-sec systems from one another.
Thoughts appreciated.
(Sig, Schmig.) |
Hesod Adee
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Posted - 2008.03.13 06:54:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Ludi Cross
Here's my thoughts on this.
Pirates and griefers say, hey, you can't have it all; there needs to be some risk. This game is about risk.
Read my post above yours. I simply don't see how having a WTZ autopilot can make the game any safer for people using it. In fact I view using a WTZ autopilot as being more risky than manual flight. Sure a WT15 autopilot is even more risky, but that is offset by it being used far less by people who it puts at risk.
Quote:
My proposition:
High sec ought to be about higher safety. Nothing is completely safe, but with the high dollar amounts being transacted here, traders shouldn't be so easily scanned and ganked, either.
To accomplish this, make the Autopilot warp to a location on a sliding scale from 0 to 15k, modified inversely by the security of the system.
Example: Autopilot to Jita gate at 0; Autopilot to .3 sec gate at ~10k; Autopilot to .6 gate (still highsec, but less so) at ~5k.
Roleplay justification: Just like RL GPS systems, the US military has differential units and "second tier" resolution that it uses that are not available for use by the general public. In eve terms, there is much more infrasructure installed in higher sec systems, allowing higher precision flight in those areas. Furthermore, the end result coincides with the generally-accepted "intended" meaning of the security rating for a system, and further differentiates even high-sec systems from one another.
Thoughts appreciated.
One major problem with trying to justify the current autopilot is that although it has the same precision as a manual warp, the autopilot is aming for a point 15km before where the manual warp is aimed. Why hasn't someone told the autopilot to just add 15km to any distance it calculates ?
Your suggestion does nothing to deal with this problem, making your roleplay justification worthless.
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Qarth
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Posted - 2008.03.13 07:38:00 -
[155]
Originally by: Auron Shadowbane
there is no RP reason why AP cant warp to 0km, at least none I could come up.
Maybe the ap is just unable to process the massive datastream of a moving and expanding universe as fast as a pod pilot's augmented brain can.
or because of the pink bunny!
The RP reason is this. Even the best computers can not make the tiny adjustments the a Pod Pilot can while in warp. The computer can't adjust fast enough to changes in gravity on the same level as a capsuleer.
Why is that you ask? Because to make those types of adjustments, you would need an advanced AI. But those same advanced AI's are what we call Rogue Drones. If you have any questions about it, please look up the Orphyx Incident and CONCORDS rules on the use of AI's, as follows.
CONCORD Directive omega-one-five
The CONCORD Directive omega-one-five [REF2] clearly states the accepted and in-force applicable to the
Orphyx Incident. The relevant sections are reproduced here.
From [REF2]: æA1.1.3: Under the terms of CONCORD applied as Law in Empire Space (see directive Alpha
One Two, DOCREF DIR/A12.0815), no person(s), company, organization or government including suborganizations
such as described within Appendix A543 may, at any time or place, conduct themselves in
research into any kind of cognitive, self-aware artificial intelligence program or entity. Included under this
heading, but not exclusive are (i)Shipboard AI (ii)Station AI (iii)Drone AI (iv)Military AI.Æ
From [REF2]: æA1.1.4: A full list of Prohibited Entities can be found in Appendix A232.Æ
From [REF2]: æA1.1.5: Such research is prohibitively outlawed and any infractions by any such person(s) or
group(s) will result in arrest, seizure of all assets belonging to said person(s)/group(s) and prosecution
under Directive omega-one-five which carries a level five punishment.Æ
This is why we can not APZ. As it would violate CONCORDS laws and the only way to achieve that type of control is to use computer AI's
By the way, if you read the entire Orphyx Incident briefing, you will notice something. Rogue Drones did not come into known existence tell after this incident.
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NightKhaos
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Posted - 2008.03.13 11:25:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Qarth
Originally by: Auron Shadowbane
there is no RP reason why AP cant warp to 0km, at least none I could come up.
Maybe the ap is just unable to process the massive datastream of a moving and expanding universe as fast as a pod pilot's augmented brain can.
or because of the pink bunny!
The RP reason is this. Even the best computers can not make the tiny adjustments the a Pod Pilot can while in warp. The computer can't adjust fast enough to changes in gravity on the same level as a capsuleer.
Why is that you ask? Because to make those types of adjustments, you would need an advanced AI. But those same advanced AI's are what we call Rogue Drones. If you have any questions about it, please look up the Orphyx Incident and CONCORDS rules on the use of AI's, as follows.
CONCORD Directive omega-one-five
The CONCORD Directive omega-one-five [REF2] clearly states the accepted and in-force applicable to the
Orphyx Incident. The relevant sections are reproduced here.
From [REF2]: æA1.1.3: Under the terms of CONCORD applied as Law in Empire Space (see directive Alpha
One Two, DOCREF DIR/A12.0815), no person(s), company, organization or government including suborganizations
such as described within Appendix A543 may, at any time or place, conduct themselves in
research into any kind of cognitive, self-aware artificial intelligence program or entity. Included under this
heading, but not exclusive are (i)Shipboard AI (ii)Station AI (iii)Drone AI (iv)Military AI.Æ
From [REF2]: æA1.1.4: A full list of Prohibited Entities can be found in Appendix A232.Æ
From [REF2]: æA1.1.5: Such research is prohibitively outlawed and any infractions by any such person(s) or
group(s) will result in arrest, seizure of all assets belonging to said person(s)/group(s) and prosecution
under Directive omega-one-five which carries a level five punishment.Æ
This is why we can not APZ. As it would violate CONCORDS laws and the only way to achieve that type of control is to use computer AI's
By the way, if you read the entire Orphyx Incident briefing, you will notice something. Rogue Drones did not come into known existence tell after this incident.
Based upon that why can't we have an illegal WTZ module which is considered contraband by CONCORD?
Reshape EVE for the future! Sell the 0.0 gates to player owned corps, and encourage an open ended universe. |
Qarth
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Posted - 2008.03.13 16:56:00 -
[157]
Originally by: NightKhaos
Based upon that why can't we have an illegal WTZ module which is considered contraband by CONCORD?
Because. If you had read the entire incident report you would notice something.
Every time an AI project has gotten to the point that the system becomes self aware. It's goes ballistic, kills everyone involved and disappears into space.
The very desire to have an AI smart enough to control a ship in the manner you wish, is the reason we now have rouge drones and all the problems that go with them.
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Torothanax
ACCORD Industries
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.14 15:20:00 -
[158]
Never.
Play the game already and quit whining about having to deal with in game mechanics.
There are already way too many macro haulers in empire and low sec. Auto WTZ would make it 100 times worse.
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Hesod Adee
Xen Of Onslaught
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Posted - 2008.03.14 21:03:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Qarth
Originally by: Auron Shadowbane
there is no RP reason why AP cant warp to 0km, at least none I could come up.
Maybe the ap is just unable to process the massive datastream of a moving and expanding universe as fast as a pod pilot's augmented brain can.
or because of the pink bunny!
The RP reason is this. Even the best computers can not make the tiny adjustments the a Pod Pilot can while in warp. The computer can't adjust fast enough to changes in gravity on the same level as a capsuleer.
Why is that you ask? Because to make those types of adjustments, you would need an advanced AI. But those same advanced AI's are what we call Rogue Drones. If you have any questions about it, please look up the Orphyx Incident and CONCORDS rules on the use of AI's, as follows.
How do you justify computers not being able to react fast enough while the human pilots can ?
Every real world example when comparing the reactions of computers and humans falls into two groups:
1 - The ones where the computer doesn't know how to react.
2 - The ones where the computer reacts much faster.
Given how reliable warp travel is*, I don't see how we could be in the first group. So that leaves the second one.
And this is ignoring the fact that, unless gravity variances cause by individual ships is significant, the sources of gravity are all known about before you start the warp.
*Both the autopilot and all pilots can warp with the same precision 100% of the time, unless an external source is interfering with warp drives.
And it does nothing to address why the autopilot shows sufficient precision for a WTZ. So why hasn't someone hacked the autopilot so that it adds 15km to its calculated distance (which is exactly how the instas worked) before plugging that number into the calculations on how much power should be sent to the engines ?
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Qarth
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.03.15 05:13:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Hesod Adee
Originally by: Qarth
Originally by: Auron Shadowbane
there is no RP reason why AP cant warp to 0km, at least none I could come up.
Maybe the ap is just unable to process the massive datastream of a moving and expanding universe as fast as a pod pilot's augmented brain can.
or because of the pink bunny!
The RP reason is this. Even the best computers can not make the tiny adjustments the a Pod Pilot can while in warp. The computer can't adjust fast enough to changes in gravity on the same level as a capsuleer.
Why is that you ask? Because to make those types of adjustments, you would need an advanced AI. But those same advanced AI's are what we call Rogue Drones. If you have any questions about it, please look up the Orphyx Incident and CONCORDS rules on the use of AI's, as follows.
How do you justify computers not being able to react fast enough while the human pilots can ?
Every real world example when comparing the reactions of computers and humans falls into two groups:
1 - The ones where the computer doesn't know how to react.
2 - The ones where the computer reacts much faster.
Given how reliable warp travel is*, I don't see how we could be in the first group. So that leaves the second one.
And this is ignoring the fact that, unless gravity variances cause by individual ships is significant, the sources of gravity are all known about before you start the warp.
*Both the autopilot and all pilots can warp with the same precision 100% of the time, unless an external source is interfering with warp drives.
And it does nothing to address why the autopilot shows sufficient precision for a WTZ. So why hasn't someone hacked the autopilot so that it adds 15km to its calculated distance (which is exactly how the instas worked) before plugging that number into the calculations on how much power should be sent to the engines ?
But we are not really human in the game , now are we. We start out as human, but after getting our Pods we are more then human. We are the super computers. We are Pod Pilots. We are the elite of the elite. The best of the elites. The there is those nasty drone incidents we need to look at and what happened then.
Also how much code would you need to write to cover everything a Pod Pilot would be able to figure out in less then a second. How much code to take into account ever possible, and some impossible, things that could happen? The amount of pull a gate has and the amount of pull a busy gate has with ships jumping in and out. Travel vectors of those ships, if there are hostiles at the gate, etc etc etc. A Pod Pilot can take all that in and more faster then any standard computer could. The only thing you could do is create an AI computer, but CONCORD has made the punishment for that very clear.
So in closing. No AWZ.
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Hesod Adee
Xen Of Onslaught
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Posted - 2008.03.15 06:56:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Qarth
But we are not really human in the game , now are we. We start out as human, but after getting our Pods we are more then human. We are the super computers. We are Pod Pilots. We are the elite of the elite. The best of the elites. The there is those nasty drone incidents we need to look at and what happened then.
Do you have any basis for your assumption that the pod pilots of Eve have better reactions than the computers they have ?
Quote:
Also how much code would you need to write to cover everything a Pod Pilot would be able to figure out in less then a second. How much code to take into account ever possible, and some impossible, things that could happen?
We don't need to take every possible thing into account. Just the more likely things. How long has it been since warp travel was rediscovered in Eve ?
I'd say plenty of time to encounter all the things worth caring about and altering the navigation code to take them into account. If they really wanted to take into account anything else, they just need some code telling the autopilot to run from anything unexpected.
Quote:
The amount of pull a gate has and the amount of pull a busy gate has with ships jumping in and out.
Well the gravitational pull of a gate would be known before you start the warp. As for the pull from the ships, it's so small that if it was relevant we would either have a way to easily detect cloaked ships, have cloaked ships screwing up people who warp nearby because they weren't accounted for, or the cloaks would hide the ships mass.
So the only way for the ships mass to be relevant is for cloaks to be able to hide it. Although the mass being irrelevant is a much simpler explanation, lets go with mass hiding. So the only ships that matter are the ones visible on sensors. So how do you calculate the gravitational pull ?
- Pull up the estimated mass from the ships records, then calculate it. But computers would be much faster here.
- Use a mechanical sensor to detect the pull. But that would give a number we could feed into the computer.
- Biological sensor. Interfacing with the computer could be tricky enough, but I'm not aware of any biological sensor which has more precision than a mechanical one measuring the same data.
So either the ship mass is irrelevant or we still end up in a situation where it doesn't help your argument.
Quote:
Travel vectors of those ships,
Simple numbers taken from the ships sensors then fed into the calculations.
Quote:
if there are hostiles at the gate, etc etc etc.
I don't see anyone asking for the autopilot to care if someone is hostile or not.
Quote:
A Pod Pilot can take all that in and more faster then any standard computer could. The only thing you could do is create an AI computer, but CONCORD has made the punishment for that very clear.
How would an AI even help here ?
Why would an AI be any faster than a dumb computer ?
I see you didn't even attempt to explain the autopilots current precision, which is my main complaint with roleplay justifications.
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Reggie Stoneloader
Teikoku Trade Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.03.15 08:48:00 -
[162]
The RP reason is that it's unsafe to warp closer than that, since collisions become a possibility. Note that manual WTZ sometimes results in collisions with the gate. The gameplay reason is that gates are logistical chokepoints and sub-warp arena where events like combat and conversation and scanning take place, since you can't interact with other players in warp and a constant state of either warping or aligning is largely anti-social.
[squeaky noob voice]"LOL why r u allowed to warp @ 0km manually then?"[/squeaky noob voice]
WTZ is not a gameplay feature, it is an exploit. Since everyone was using the exploit and the exploit was causing huge amount of server load and lag, it was codified into the game interface. When you choose "Warp to at 0km" from the menu, you are cheating at EvE. Enough people did it for long enough that CCP surrendered and gave us a button to do it, since the workaround kicked the server cluster in the testes every time someone opened P&P.
Crusades: Security Status |
Hesod Adee
Xen Of Onslaught
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Posted - 2008.03.15 20:48:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader
The RP reason is that it's unsafe to warp closer than that, since collisions become a possibility. Note that manual WTZ sometimes results in collisions with the gate.
That would explain the autopilot coming out just far enough from the gate to prevent collisions, which would be 3km at most. But it doesn't explain coming out at 15km from the gate.
Quote:
The gameplay reason is that gates are logistical chokepoints and sub-warp arena where events like combat and conversation and scanning take place, since you can't interact with other players in warp and a constant state of either warping or aligning is largely anti-social.
Manual WTZ already keeps players in those states, while at the same time making them bored because they can't minimise Eve and do something else if they want a quick trip. Not to mention the gates that don't have anyone at them.
Quote:
WTZ is not a gameplay feature, it is an exploit. Since everyone was using the exploit and the exploit was causing huge amount of server load and lag, it was codified into the game interface. When you choose "Warp to at 0km" from the menu, you are cheating at EvE. Enough people did it for long enough that CCP surrendered and gave us a button to do it, since the workaround kicked the server cluster in the testes every time someone opened P&P.
When manual WTZ went live on the test server I suggested another way to remove instas: When you warp to something by any means, you come out of warp at a randomly selected point within a large sphere around the target. This change would of nerfed instas, stopped people benefiting from the exploit, kept the autopilot as a useful system, and would of kept travelling in low sec dangerous because you couldn't just WTZ to a gate.
But instead of this option which wouldn't of caused any of my complaints, we got manual WTZ, everyone getting to use the insta exploit and a useless autopilot.
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Qarth
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.03.15 22:03:00 -
[164]
Hesod,
You aren't going to get what you want. No they will not make AWZ. No you can't AFK and fly across 0.0. Give up the ghost allready.
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Hesod Adee
Xen Of Onslaught
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Posted - 2008.03.17 20:54:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Qarth
Hesod,
You aren't going to get what you want. No they will not make AWZ.
Do you have a statement from CCP saying this ?
And even if you do, why shouldn't I try and change their minds ?
Quote:
No you can't AFK and fly across 0.0.
Yes, interdictor bubbles make using an autopilot in 0.0 very risky, even if it was a WTZ autopilot. But the people who still use it will be very easy targets.
Quote:
Give up the ghost allready.
If you want me to stop, get a forum moderator (or someone higher up) to tell me how I'm breaking the forum rules or convince me that a WTZ autopilot is a bad idea. Otherwise I'll keep responding to the people against a WTZ autopilot to point out the holes in their arguments.
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Verys
The Black Ops
Black Core Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.17 21:03:00 -
[166]
No never WTZ on autopilot. There are reasons behind this else CCP would have implented this when they released WTZ. You dont deserve being safe on autopilot. If you want to go somewhere fast just jump the damn route already. This game is not meant to be played afk and autopilot is essentially for the pilot who doesnt like to pilot a 40 jump route manually. So its a choice get there fast manually or get there somewhat slower but not having to do anything for it. The only reason ccp ever implented WTZ was because everyone had a collection of WTZ bookmarks and there was a very lucrative business in it, or read something CCP did not intend in the first place.
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Lenus Daragio
Foundry.
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Posted - 2008.03.19 03:41:00 -
[167]
There may not be any RP reasons we can't have WTZ, but there are gameplay issues.
Most eve players don't RP.
Therefore, it's highly unlikely that there will be a Autopilot Warp To Zero.
Why is this a gameplay issue?
Because WTZ was designed to remove a "cheat" that certain people had made that let them get around having warp to 15km.
Setting up for this cheat caused ridiculous amounts of lag, because copying bookmarks was no small task. (Bookmarks have x,y,z components that are accurate to the KM, in trillion KM systems. Get the drift?)
To rid the world of this, CCP made the compromise that Warp to Zero would be an option.
As with all compromises, nobody is happy, because everyone is still whining for Autopilot WTZ.
If CCP introduces Autopilot WTZ, i will cancel my accounts. I hope all of you who feel as strongly against this as I do will do the same. This just encourages the macro-haulers even more. So, no, NO WTZ.
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Hesod Adee
Xen Of Onslaught
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Posted - 2008.03.19 20:16:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Verys
No never WTZ on autopilot. There are reasons behind this else CCP would have implented this when they released WTZ. You dont deserve being safe on autopilot. If you want to go somewhere fast just jump the damn route already. This game is not meant to be played afk and autopilot is essentially for the pilot who doesnt like to pilot a 40 jump route manually. So its a choice get there fast manually or get there somewhat slower but not having to do anything for it. The only reason ccp ever implented WTZ was because everyone had a collection of WTZ bookmarks and there was a very lucrative business in it, or read something CCP did not intend in the first place.
Read my first post on this page then tell me exactly how a WTZ autopilot is any safer than manual WTZ.
I view the current system as a choice between:
- Be bored while going between the interesting parts of the game.
- Take much longer to get there. Meaning more time AFK in a game "not meant to be played afk" and less time actually playing the parts of Eve that they enjoy.
Originally by: Lenus Daragio
Because WTZ was designed to remove a "cheat" that certain people had made that let them get around having warp to 15km.
Only because the solution CCP gave was to give everyone the cheat, instead of a change that would of had everyone warp in at a distance from the gate. Nobody would be complaining about the autopilot, and the people who were using the exploit wouldn't of had it implemented into the game mechanics.
Yes I know why instas were removed. And I do agree that something needed to be done about it. Before they were removed I didn't think that manual WTZ was the right solution, but I don't see CCP changing away from it now. So I'm just trying to tweak it to make it better.
Quote:
As with all compromises, nobody is happy, because everyone is still whining for Autopilot WTZ.
If CCP introduces Autopilot WTZ, i will cancel my accounts. I hope all of you who feel as strongly against this as I do will do the same. This just encourages the macro-haulers even more. So, no, NO WTZ.
I wonder what percentage of people making this threat actually carry through with it. And of those people, I wonder how many of them would leave for other minor changes.
Yes this will increase the speed at which traders* are moving stuff around in high sec. The only way I can see this effecting people is that trading requires more work to plan trade routes and prices becoming closer between regions.
So how would manual WTZ negatively effect other people ?
*Macro haulers probably already have WTZ built into their macro, so all the WTZ autopilot will do to them is legitimatise their exploit. Just like WTZ did.
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Valeri Greon
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.03.27 22:08:00 -
[169]
I personally think that the issues raised by Latok and Hesod Adee deserve a little more constructive critic than "it's never been that way, so it will never be that way" and age-old arguments which are clearly countered by their arguments.
However, I'm not going to do this, because I happen to agree with them. While I acknowledge that "accidents do happen" in real life, the kind of accidents that are result of forgetting autopilot on (or being unable to switch it off due transition lag) should not penalize the player. Especially when there is no good in-game reason for it.
But if we decide to keep the 15km autopilot limit, we should be able to at least get some sort background story for it. Although I can't for the undeath of mine figure any reason why autopilot would be unable to warp to zero, or why it should not be desirable inside Eve Universe.
As I'm sure has been mentioned before, the ship computer seems to have no trouble warping to zero before docking, so why should it have trouble before jumping?
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Anjinha
Napalm Death Industries
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Posted - 2008.03.28 03:20:00 -
[170]
Originally by: Verys
No never WTZ on autopilot. There are reasons behind this else CCP would have implented this when they released WTZ. You dont deserve being safe on autopilot. If you want to go somewhere fast just jump the damn route already. This game is not meant to be played afk and autopilot is essentially for the pilot who doesnt like to pilot a 40 jump route manually. So its a choice get there fast manually or get there somewhat slower but not having to do anything for it. The only reason ccp ever implented WTZ was because everyone had a collection of WTZ bookmarks and there was a very lucrative business in it, or read something CCP did not intend in the first place.
I fully agree with the initial idea posted in this thread.
WTH !!! the point is not about being more or less safe using WTZ! It is because it simply sucks warp 20 jumps in manual pilot on high-sec. This a pain in the @ss. Did you try that with a freighter before? God, imagine if you have to do that twice a week to haul some industrial product stuff. just because it is a big ship doesn't mean it has to be tedious to fly one. Isn't it big? Fill its cargo with a nuclear reactor to give power to millions of computers running the same stupid AI mentioned before, so the ship can warp closer to the gate! Brute force, not AI improvement blah blah blah. I pay 2 billion to have an autopilot WTZ freighter!
If you don't want WTZ in low-sec or 0.0, I can understand, since you are looking from the PVP point of view. But in high-sec this is vital. Also, there is no guarantee you will fly safer using WTZ. Gate campers would have lots of chance to catch ppl who think they are safe Warping To Zero in high sec while they are afk. Many ppl will do that with more valuable cargo, so think about new possibilities for gankers. No need to whine. If your cargo is not so valuable, what is the problem warping to 0 in AP on high-sec? It just will reduce the lag.
Just a question, have you ever been exploded in a low-sec camp gate warping manually to zero? This is possible, even with an interceptor. A 8x Large Smartbomb pulse can fry your small ship in less than 1 second. Gankers can use the same to get ppl in high-sec. Maybe some improvements on cargo scanner would be required in this case, nothing special.
Maybe a Warp-To-3km or 5km would be just fine. But stay 3 hours logged in the game waiting a freighter go from one system to another one 26 jumps away, all the way high-sec, with a 99,99999999% chance of not being ganked with almost nothing in the cargo is a stupid torture. And many many players do that.
You know, all this RPG CONCORD stuff is just a way CCP found to make ppl stop asking: "Why? Why? But why?"... If they find this a good idea, specially to reduce the amount of ppl AFKing but still logged in the game, they do will implement it. Didn't they implement manual warp to zero even with tons of pirates whining like 5 years old girls that got her lollipop stolen?
Let's give a break to this warp to 15 km torture. There is nothing special to be appreciated in this game during a manual flight, it is *boring* differently from other MMORG games, where you can see awesome landscapes during your trip. One system is so similar to the next one, and to the next one, and to the next one, and to the next one, and to the next one, and to the next one, zzzzzz... f$c%$n boring, logout!!!
Industrialists' ideas for EVE
"We don't need Santa Claus... we need his factory"
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Rudarstilski
Alija Sirotanovich Mining Ops
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Posted - 2008.03.28 11:20:00 -
[171]
I think it's very exciting warping from gate to gate manually with 3 billion isk in the cargohold when suicide gankers are scanning you  Certainly gets my adrenaline up 
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Valeri Greon
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.03.29 11:47:00 -
[172]
You'd still have the option to fly manually -- in fact, with 3 billion in the cargo, you probably should - after all, the autopilot can't really react to said gankers.
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Anything is possible. |
El'Niaga
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.03.30 03:37:00 -
[173]
I don't see this ever happening.
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Erotic Irony
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Posted - 2008.03.30 04:47:00 -
[174]
the short answer is that it's easier to half fix something in Eve than it is to genuinely try to correct it
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Eve Players are not very smart.
Support Killmail Overhaul
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Reggie Stoneloader
Teikoku Trade Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.03.30 05:10:00 -
[175]
It's not a half-fix of the "OMG travel is so slow" problem, it's a complete fix of the "OMG 150 million BMs are clogging TQ" problem. The problem is fixed, and the only reason these whines are getting louder and more obnoxious lately is that the new players think that WTZ is normal. If you compare what autopilot does to WTZ, then yes, it seems silly, because it's a two-click job using the overview to WTZ now. Older players remember scrolling down through (sometimes dozens) of bookmarks to find, not just the right destination gate, but the bookmark that led from their current position to the gate. It's a question of perspective.
And going 20 jumps in a freighter, hauling enough goods to completely transform the market in your destination system/constellation/region, should not be an easy thing to do. Asking that it be made faster, easier and safer would be like asking that the Worlds Collide deadspace be transformed into a single NPC with a 50 million isk bounty, or requesting that mining lasers put ore directly into the station hangar.
I could do without autopilot altogether.
Crusades: Security Status |
Lenus Daragio
Foundry.
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Posted - 2008.03.30 07:52:00 -
[176]
The time it takes to travel is supposed to let you feel how big the EvE universe really is, as well as see things that are going on from one solar system to another.
WTZ Autopilot shouldn't happen, because then NOBODY will sit at there computer and really experience the vastness of eve.
I'd rather have to warp to 15km even while on manual than see WTZ autopilot.
The day they do WTZ autopilot, is the day I quit eve, who's with me there?
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Valeri Greon
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.03.30 19:07:00 -
[177]
It's wonderful how people actually deal with the new suggestions they hear - and rational arguments to support those suggestions.
Originally by: El'Niaga
I don't see this ever happening.
If everyone thought that way about every feature request or new idea, Eve would never get new features...
Originally by: Lenus Daragio
The time it takes to travel is supposed to let you feel how big the EvE universe really is, as well as see things that are going on from one solar system to another.
WTZ Autopilot shouldn't happen, because then NOBODY will sit at there computer and really experience the vastness of eve.
I'd rather have to warp to 15km even while on manual than see WTZ autopilot.
The day they do WTZ autopilot, is the day I quit eve, who's with me there?
Sure, admire the repetitive solar systems while in warp. Whoa, haven't seen that shade on a planet before. How prettily the sun is speeding past me... No, really, warping through systems is mere waste of time that I usually spend reading market information or chatting with my corp mates.
Forcing a 15km buffer zone to all warps to stargates would be an acceptable solution in my book -- if it really meant that you could in no way warp to zero. I however suggest that it be made a skill - on level 5 you could warp to zero, or three km or whatever...
The quit threat deserves no notice -- people start playing and stop playing Eve all the time.
Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader
It's not a half-fix of the "OMG travel is so slow" problem, it's a complete fix of the "OMG 150 million BMs are clogging TQ" problem. The problem is fixed, and the only reason these whines are getting louder and more obnoxious lately is that the new players think that WTZ is normal. If you compare what autopilot does to WTZ, then yes, it seems silly, because it's a two-click job using the overview to WTZ now. Older players remember scrolling down through (sometimes dozens) of bookmarks to find, not just the right destination gate, but the bookmark that led from their current position to the gate. It's a question of perspective.
And going 20 jumps in a freighter, hauling enough goods to completely transform the market in your destination system/constellation/region, should not be an easy thing to do. Asking that it be made faster, easier and safer would be like asking that the Worlds Collide deadspace be transformed into a single NPC with a 50 million isk bounty, or requesting that mining lasers put ore directly into the station hangar.
I could do without autopilot altogether.
Yes, I agree - WTZ is based on partial fix of a problem that was part of Eve a long time ago. We, however, are new players who would like to enjoy the game more, and are suggesting a way to do it.
As for freighters - it has been stated earlier in this conversation that WTZ autopilot wouldn't really make traveling any safer, only less boring. Neither would autopilot WTZ affect freighter's speed - you can get the ship to warp nearly as fast manually as the autopilot does - sometimes even faster. As for easier... Why is that a bad thing?
And yes, I could manage without autopilot very well indeed - it would just mean that there would be no 15km runs to the gate ever again - everyone would just WTZ. Because I'm essentially lazy, it is nice that it exists, though. It gives me time to visit the forum.
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Anything is possible. |
Hesod Adee
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Posted - 2008.03.30 23:56:00 -
[178]
Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader
It's not a half-fix of the "OMG travel is so slow" problem, it's a complete fix of the "OMG 150 million BMs are clogging TQ" problem. The problem is fixed, and the only reason these whines are getting louder and more obnoxious lately is that the new players think that WTZ is normal.
Because CCP chose to fix the bookmark problem with WTZ, instead of other solutions like:
- Buffer zone around gates that you couldn't warp into.
- Randomly placing you within a sphere around the target so
that, depending on luck, you could get anything between a WTZ and WT15 with the possibility of pointing anywhere between 0 and 180 degrees away from the gate.
The people wanting a WTZ autopilot should of been predicted when CCP chose that fix. In fact, I think I remember people asking for a WTZ autopilot in the time between WTZ on the test server and on Tranquillity.
Quote:
If you compare what autopilot does to WTZ, then yes, it seems silly, because it's a two-click job using the overview to WTZ now.
A 2 click job that is infrequent enough to be boring, but frequent enough to interrupt whatever you are trying to do while passing the time.
Quote:
Older players remember scrolling down through (sometimes dozens) of bookmarks to find, not just the right destination gate, but the bookmark that led from their current position to the gate. It's a question of perspective.
Yet another problem that instas had. Good thing they got fixed.
Quote:
And going 20 jumps in a freighter, hauling enough goods to completely transform the market in your destination system/constellation/region, should not be an easy thing to do.
So clicking warp > right click > add as first waypoint > autopilot is a hard thing to do ?
Quote:
Asking that it be made faster,
I don't see it making it any faster than people using my above method.
Quote:
easier
It will only make it easier to avoid border.
Quote:
and safer
Read my first post in this thread then tell me how it would make things safer ?
Quote:
would be like asking that the Worlds Collide deadspace be transformed into a single NPC with a 50 million isk bounty, or requesting that mining lasers put ore directly into the station hangar.
Instead of addressing the argument, you make up something you think is similar, exaggerate it to the point that few people will agree with it. Then you expect us to agree that a WTZ autopilot is a bad idea because your example is a bad idea. Why do you expect this to work ?
Originally by: Lenus Daragio
The time it takes to travel is supposed to let you feel how big the EvE universe really is, as well as see things that are going on from one solar system to another.
I don't see how it can be any faster than manual WTZ
Quote:
WTZ Autopilot shouldn't happen, because then NOBODY will sit at there computer and really experience the vastness of eve.
What exactly is there to see that we would miss out on ?
Quote:
I'd rather have to warp to 15km even while on manual than see WTZ autopilot.
That would of worked if it was the solution to instas. But since we have had over a year with WTZ I see lots of complaints if that came about.
Quote:
The day they do WTZ autopilot, is the day I quit eve, who's with me there?
If your going to quit over a little thing like this, why haven't you quit over previous changes that you didn't like ?
Can you provide any proof that you will actually go through with this ?
Or are you just lying because you don't have any solid arguments against a WTZ autopilot.
For those people against a WTZ autopilot, would you agree to the following:
CCP introduces it while telling us that it will be removed after a short period (maybe 2 weeks). After that period, they remove it. Then after this they make the decision about if it should be permanent based on what happened in that period.
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Belmarduk
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Posted - 2008.03.31 11:42:00 -
[179]
Remember the time before wtz ?
Its fine as it is now - wtz per AP would be very bad for pvp
CCP Please give us casual players a Skill-Queue !
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Astria Tiphareth
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.03.31 14:05:00 -
[180]
Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 31/03/2008 14:14:35
Originally by: Valandril
Lmao what if i tell you that there was time w/o WTZ, only instas ?
They gave ppl a finger and ppl want whole hand :|
I believe there are numerous caves now available since the last Ice Age. Please feel free to go live in one. The above will never be a good counter-argument to improvements and progress.
Originally by: Jayson Shakkyo
Warp to Zero on autopilot should NEVER be added to this game and I hope that it never is. It would destory EVE Online completely adding it. The reasons are all to obvious, you would have thousands of players traveling in total safety while AFK and it would destroy vital tactics used in the game as well as kill the piracy aspect.
Several people have peddled this rubbish, so apologies for singling out one post. I say again, total and utter rubbish. Are you seriously suggesting that AFK AP players are the only reason tactics and piracy work? Are you saying that every player that warps manually gets past every gatecamp, and somehow is invulnerable?
I think not. Lets leave the 'OMG they want to nerf EVE and be lazy' crap at the door please. Warp to zero, regardless of autopiloted or not, is here. The game copes just fine, people still pirate, people still get ganked, and people still fight PvP. Enough with the hyperbolic trolls to try and avoid having to argue your point of view. Making it auto-piloted would affect the game not a jot, beyond actually making targets have more of a false sense of security than before.
The closest I can see where there would be a difference between manual and automatic is where the UI screws up and you can't click jump, or CCP introduces a module that allows pirates to reach out from the screen, and stop me from clicking jump. 
Please. Total garbage. Post a real argument.
Frankly I couldn't care less whether it gets added or not, I can cope either way. I just get tired of the same 'I'm an old player, you ought to respect me, you young kids want to change things, I hate change' junk.
Edit:
Originally by: Cailais
Anything which makes it easier for a player to be absent from the game - whilst still playing the game (i.e AFK) is a bad idea.
EVE is a MMO game - Massively Multiplayer, not Massively AFK. Needless to say it would also assist macro programs and isk farmers in general. Demands for WTZ autopilot come from very very lazy players. What next? AP PVP? AP Exploration?
WTZ was in some respects a step to far, but it was necessary to assist in reducing lag. Not one step further thank-you.
C.
See? A real argument against, though I partially disagree - travel isn't the meat of the game, all those other things mentioned are. For those dissenting, consider this. We have close to AP PvP! Try playing Freelancer or Elite-clones for the real deal. I don't advocate going to that, just pointing out there is an level of automation already in the game. Feel free to debate what is acceptable.
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"If you can't debate using logic & fact, and at least recognise other people's point of view, don't waste time posting on forums. It only makes you look like a teenage idiot." |
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