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Spy4Hire
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Posted - 2007.02.04 03:33:00 -
[31]
I'm not so irked about can switching on macro barges... please do so, as much as you can. If it's a barge in a NPC corp then it's the same as a macro and should be treated as such.
However, what I do find irksome is some little snot moving up on a war kill and nicking the loot and NOT FLAGGING because of lag. By the time the game figures out that they've stolen your crap they're already 3au away on their way to instadock.
CCP, that needs definate fixing *NOW*.
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Shameless Avenger
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Posted - 2007.02.04 05:49:00 -
[32]
About being lazy...
Originally by: hotgirl933 lazy miners who cant be bothered to fit some cargo expanders...
It's not laziness. If you are mining you should fit mining upgrades, not cargo expanders. You loose 5% of ore for every mining upgrade not fitted. And warping to base on every cargohold full will cut a full 3rd or more of your mining output.
About æhaving a friend or corp-mate hauling the oreÆ, It's not about not being 'social' in an MMO. It's about paying your friend for his services from the already-crapy empire-miner's salary.
About having an alt account, that's actually what I do but I do recognize not everybody has the resources to do it.
Now, about the secure cans... I wasn't here around the time they came out but from what I have read, having a BS those days was like having a carrier now. I imagine people mined on navitas back in the day and the 3900m3 of the 'giant' secure can was fair. Now days, a bigger type of can is needed.
People in 0.0 using a POS have it a little easier as they donÆt lose time for docking. |
BluOrange
Gallente New Fnord Industries
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Posted - 2007.02.04 08:27:00 -
[33]
Bigger cans would be good, although 'fixed invulnerable' cans would not, IMO. It would be great to see ore-theiving pirates forced to bring a large industrial along so that they could take a 10,000 m3 can.
But I play in a high-sec corp that does a bit of mining - the cost of having a hauler and a guard around drops quite significantly when you've got four barges doing their thing. The current game structure rewards teamwork, and penalizes solo play by making solo play more dangerous. I'm completely fine with that.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2007.02.04 09:06:00 -
[34]
There are a lot of posts in here that need a LOT more cheese with the w(h)ine....
EVE is always(!) based on risks vs. rewards. If you use a jet-can, you risk loosing it to thieves, but mine faster. If you use a secure can, you don't risk loosing it, but mine less amounts.
Risk vs. rewards is the basic of EVE. Get used to it and stop whining.
Originally by: Par'Gellen
Originally by: Kumu Honua There are many ways to protect yourself.
Use Giant Secure Containers.
Not an option. Have you seen the m3 on those? They might as well be called "Miniscule Joke Cans". It would actually take longer to do it this way than to just fill your cargo and take it to the station repeatedly.
Just because you can't think of the right way to use giant secures doesn't mean it's not there. I can assure you that it is possible to achieve at least 90% (possibly 95%) of the income with giant secures as with jet cans, and without the risks of jet-cans. And this is not using alts. I did this for a long time, and it worked brilliantly. I'm not going to tell the specifics though, since it is so simple you should be able to figure it out.
General advice: Stop whining! |
Shameless Avenger
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Posted - 2007.02.04 09:13:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Kerfira
Risk vs. rewards is the basic of EVE. Get used to it and stop whining.
Exactly... so the ore thief steals your ORE (reward) and takes the risk of being blasted with ... mining lazers? Wooo what a risk! yeah, risk Vs reward FTW! :S
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.04 09:30:00 -
[36]
Exactly.. You risked your ore to a thief for the ease of mining into a jet can vs the riskless but less profitable secure can method.. risk vs reward at its finest..
KALI:Revelations.. The ****znit.. ( FFS ****znit is blocked?! Quit using Babelfish for a blocked word filter engine CCP.. :-p ) |
Kerfira
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Posted - 2007.02.04 09:42:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Shameless Avenger
Originally by: Kerfira
Risk vs. rewards is the basic of EVE. Get used to it and stop whining.
Exactly... so the ore thief steals your ORE (reward) and takes the risk of being blasted with ... mining lazers? Wooo what a risk! yeah, risk Vs reward FTW! :S
That you didn't protect your stuff (and there are plenty of ways to do that) is not the ore thiefs problem. That's YOUR problem!
You're not getting your 'print-isk-for-free-press'......
General advice: Stop whining! |
Shameless Avenger
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Posted - 2007.02.04 09:50:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Shameless Avenger
Originally by: Kerfira
Risk vs. rewards is the basic of EVE. Get used to it and stop whining.
Exactly... so the ore thief steals your ORE (reward) and takes the risk of being blasted with ... mining lazers? Wooo what a risk! yeah, risk Vs reward FTW! :S
That you didn't protect your stuff (and there are plenty of ways to do that) is not the ore thiefs problem. That's YOUR problem!
You're not getting your 'print-isk-for-free-press'......
I fail to see your point or what are you trying to get across.
Miner can risk using jet cans - true Miner can go safe using secure cans but make less profit - true Miner can protect himself from thieves - true
What that has to do with my sarcasmic comment about risk-vs-reward from the point of view of the thief? who knows...
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2007.02.04 09:57:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Kerfira on 04/02/2007 10:01:36
Originally by: Shameless Avenger
Originally by: Kerfira ...stuff....
I fail to see your point or what are you trying to get across.
Miner can risk using jet cans - true Miner can go safe using secure cans but make less profit - true Miner can protect himself from thieves - true
What that has to do with my sarcasmic comment about risk-vs-reward from the point of view of the thief? who knows...
True, the thief doesn't run (much) risk, but that is not because the game doesn't make the theft risky. With a real-world analogy, it's because the (greedy) miners open the front door of their house, put a big sign up with 'goods to steal' above it, and sit down wielding a pencil as their weapon, while hoping nobody comes around and steal their stuff.
EVE is a sandbox which does not protect you against your own stupidity. If I fly an unarmed Battleship into EC-P8R, and leave it hanging around one of the gates, I WILL get blown up. The killer will get an easy kill with no risks. It'll be because of my own stupid action. In essence, this is exactly the same as mining into a jet-can. Doing something stupid means that some other player gains from it without risk. EVE as it should be!
General advice: Stop whining! |
Rod Blaine
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.04 10:26:00 -
[40]
Well, took a few months but we're back at the point we started at before the flagging was introduced due to incessant whining of miners that it wasn't fair that their ore got stolen from their (unintented) jetcans.
If this does not prove that giving in to consensuality whining is stepping onto a slippery slope then I don't know what would.
What now ? No flagging for taking back ore ?
And then what when people start using double alts to swiftly move the ore around from your can into another can into a hauler ? More changes ? Concord protection for jetcan miners ?
Please don't, make the cycle of whining stop here.
Old blog Originally by: Vriezuh Naz: John is a realist
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Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.02.04 10:48:00 -
[41]
To the OP:
a)You chose to mine into a jet can. b)You can chose to engage in hostilities with anyone that takes from your can.
In both cases it's your choice and up to you to deal with the consequences of your decisions.
There are plenty of alternatives to (a) and CCP gave you the time and equipment to engage in (b). Stop whining and start making better choices. -- (Battle hardened industrialist)
[Brackley, UK]
Please don't read this signature. |
Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.02.04 10:50:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Larkonis Trassler More than a year ago carebears and miners were crying out for some way to get back at ebil ore thieves. Now they... dont't? LOL.
carebears were crying. miners adapted.
Nothing has changed there -- (Battle hardened industrialist)
[Brackley, UK]
Please don't read this signature. |
Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.02.04 10:57:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Shameless Avenger About being lazy...
Originally by: hotgirl933 lazy miners who cant be bothered to fit some cargo expanders...
It's not laziness. If you are mining you should fit mining upgrades, not cargo expanders. You loose 5% of ore for every mining upgrade not fitted.
That's true but if it helps solve the ore theif problem it is a price worth paying.
Quote: About æhaving a friend or corp-mate hauling the oreÆ, It's not about not being 'social' in an MMO. It's about paying your friend for his services from the already-crapy empire-miner's salary.
So move to 0.0. Make better friends.
Quote: About having an alt account, that's actually what I do but I do recognize not everybody has the resources to do it.
Phew. A reasonably response at last
Quote: Now, about the secure cans... I wasn't here around the time they came out but from what I have read, having a BS those days was like having a carrier now. I imagine people mined on navitas back in the day and the 3900m3 of the 'giant' secure can was fair. Now days, a bigger type of can is needed.
Before can flagging I'd have agreed. With can flagging I don't.
Quote: People in 0.0 using a POS have it a little easier as they donÆt lose time for docking.
Yes. Some players choose to pay the price associated with operating a POS in 0.0.
---
You are very close to being a carebear here. Step away from that path. Accept that there are no perfect solutions and there is no 'I win' button. Eve is like RL in that every solution has a cost factor. The clever people learn to balance the two.
The stupid people learn to whine and moan. -- (Battle hardened industrialist)
[Brackley, UK]
Please don't read this signature. |
Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.02.04 10:58:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Shameless Avenger
Originally by: Kerfira
Risk vs. rewards is the basic of EVE. Get used to it and stop whining.
Exactly... so the ore thief steals your ORE (reward) and takes the risk of being blasted with ... mining lazers? Wooo what a risk! yeah, risk Vs reward FTW! :S
You have enough time to switch to a different ship or alert your corp mates. -- (Battle hardened industrialist)
[Brackley, UK]
Please don't read this signature. |
deathforge
The Accursed
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Posted - 2007.02.04 11:25:00 -
[45]
To quote myself from a similarly amusing thread:
"It was the miners that asked, some may even say 'whined' or 'begged,' for the can flagging system. it used to be if you mined into a jetcan, that ore was considered up for grabs, and you could not attack someone for stealing your ore. The reasoning, which is in fact very sound, is that if you were throwing $20 bills into the street (not dissimilar from leaving ore in floating in an unsecure container in space), the police (concord) would arrest (wtfomgbbq) you for shooting at people picking up the money.
Much whining and a patch later, it was decided you can shoot at people for picking up the valuables you hurl into open space unguarded, but they can shoot back. After all, remember you're throwing $20 bills into the street and firing at people for picking them up, it's only reasonable that the 'parasites' cleaning up after rock-biting scum can defend themselves when attacked by such a clearly irrational individual."
Low skillpoint Rifter piracy video |
Vallista
Gallente Gold River Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.04 14:15:00 -
[46]
The difference between a whine and a discussion is proposing reasonable changes for perceived problems. If you don't see it as a problem, then don't worry about it. I personally don't see a problem with logoffskis because it doesn't affect me either way. I don't use the tactic or get screwed by it, but either way, under the areguement the community seems to be advancing, it's a legitimate tactic because it falls within the game mechanics.
It's easy to criticise when someone is trying to constructively add to or change a situation, but it's hard to build. I would like to argue these points with members of the community, but I can't argue or analyze a one line refutation of my issues or a 'secret' solution.
Because of real life constraints, I am unable to use an alt. I simply cannot obtain and effectively use a second account or I would. Again, because of real life constraints, I cannot play more than an hour a day most of the time, and frequently go a week without playing. This effectively bars me from every corporation I've talked to. From my point of view, it seems like the vocal and corporate Eve community thinks that only power gamers should be playing this game, but I don't like to give up, so continue the flame.
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Dendrin Koljn
Minmatar Elite United Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.04 14:24:00 -
[47]
I think the problem here, as with a lot of stuff, is the perceived level of security in 'empire' space.
I mine in lowsec + 0.0 (now and again) so 'ore theft' is the least of my worries....rats can kill me....PvP'ers can jump me...etc.
If I need to mine in high sec...(did a bit of ice about 4mnths ago - cause my usual system was crawling with 2 hostile corps)....and someone steals my ore..i add em to my KOS list and pass their name onto my corp..problem solved as they will lose 2-3 ships/pods over the nxt couple of weeks.
Re: the OP
Think seriously about what your asking for.....perfectly safe no risk mining in high sec... ...if this was implemented then within a week the forums would be full of threads moaning about macro miners being untouchable (unless you suicide frig gang em )... ...and the 1st lot of complaints would be bound to come from the miners as they watch the mineral prices fall through the floor..(I'd be one of them )
A simple solution (imho) would be to only allow corp/gang members to remove items from a jetcan while the owner of that can is in the same grid. So you can only thieve from a can when the miner isn't about (high sec only). Any attempt to steal while the miner is about calls in concord, and the flagging still works as it does now.
Even this may skew things too far in favour of totally safe mining.
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Mr Li
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Posted - 2007.02.04 14:27:00 -
[48]
as previously stated; jet-cans were never intended to be used as it is now with mining. Unfortunately it's been around so long that it's become engrained into the community and mechanics of play. However, as a point of light for you, devs got rid of instas with WTZ so maybe some kind of secure silo that you can anchor could be implemented. I could see something like that happening, but not at the same volume as the current cans, maybe something like half a jet can and then it has an anchor delay and also can't fit in a mining vessel's cargo -- i.e. you need a hauler to jet it out.
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Shameless Avenger
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Posted - 2007.02.04 14:30:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Shameless Avenger on 04/02/2007 14:32:12
Originally by: Andrue
You are very close to being a carebear here. Step away from that path. Accept that there are no perfect solutions and there is no 'I win' button. Eve is like RL in that every solution has a cost factor. The clever people learn to balance the two.
But there is an I-Win button, the ore thief has it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not siding with anybody, but the truth is the truth. The ore thief have it way too easy.
About the whining, almost everybody here whines:
"Death to mission runners, they have it to easy, nerf them" "Death to the noob corp, tax them to death! nerf them" etc etc
So there's nothing wrong about whining that the ore thief have it too easy, nerf them.
Anyway, all I say is there should be a bigger secure can, that's all. You may disagree, it's a free universe. A 10Km3 can would be great.
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Gileas
Minmatar Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2007.02.04 16:23:00 -
[50]
Here, lemme translate the complaints:
Quote: I want to play this multiplayer, PvP game solo, and I demand that I be allowed to mine anywhere I want and nobody else be allowed to interact with my property in any way at any time.
Make one single friend = All your ore thief problems are solved.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2007.02.04 16:29:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Shameless Avenger But there is an I-Win button, the ore thief has it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not siding with anybody, but the truth is the truth. The ore thief have it way too easy.
He only have that I-Win button because: YOU... GAVE... IT... TO... HIM!!!
General advice: Stop whining! |
Cur
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.02.04 16:40:00 -
[52]
You use jetcans. You deserve zero sympathy.
"What is best in life?" "To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women." |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2007.02.04 19:02:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Shameless Avenger But there is an I-Win button, the ore thief has it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not siding with anybody, but the truth is the truth. The ore thief have it way too easy.
The ore thief only has the "I win button" because the miners refuse to do anything about the theft (besides whining to CCP). If the miner was actually protecting his ore properly, every time a thief opened a can a recon ship would decloak and kill him. Or the barge would have a scrambler and combat drones. Etc. There is considerable risk of ship loss for an ore thief, if miners ever stop being lazy carebears.
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Shameless Avenger
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Posted - 2007.02.04 20:01:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Shameless Avenger But there is an I-Win button, the ore thief has it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not siding with anybody, but the truth is the truth. The ore thief have it way too easy.
He only have that I-Win button because: YOU... GAVE... IT... TO... HIM!!!
And what in the F world makes you think somebody stole ore from ME? I'm just discusing here, expressing my self. I have never been victim of ore thef. It doesn't take a victim to know they have it too easy. |
Shameless Avenger
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Posted - 2007.02.04 20:16:00 -
[55]
People here are starting to go down the "you are stupid" kind of posts instead of discussing things like the reasons (pros/cons) of the proposed solutions like a bigger secure cans. The "it's the miner's fault" have been said infinite times in multiple threads, that's not the issue. The fact is that the miner<->ore-thief escenario is unbalanced. The options for the miner rigth now are not very good.
Of course, there's another option not discussed yet. Miners can simply rise the prices for the ore, forcing industrialist to increase prices on all items and making all of you pay more for ur stuff.
Have you seen the prices of veldspar lately? |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2007.02.04 20:30:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Shameless Avenger People here are starting to go down the "you are stupid" kind of posts instead of discussing things like the reasons (pros/cons) of the proposed solutions like a bigger secure cans. The "it's the miner's fault" have been said infinite times in multiple threads, that's not the issue. The fact is that the miner<->ore-thief escenario is unbalanced. The options for the miner rigth now are not very good.?
The options for the miner are perfectly good. Lock target, warp scramble, launch drones and hit "engage target". Pick up loot.
Ore thieves fly around in UNARMED HAULERS. The scenario is perfectly balanced, if miners weren't so afraid of pvp that they won't even engage an unarmed hauler. If miners actually bothered to protect their ore properly, 95% of theft would end in a dead ore thief. The solution is for miners to use the tools they already have, not for CCP to change the rules to do it for them.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2007.02.04 20:38:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Shameless Avenger
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Shameless Avenger But there is an I-Win button, the ore thief has it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not siding with anybody, but the truth is the truth. The ore thief have it way too easy.
He only have that I-Win button because: YOU... GAVE... IT... TO... HIM!!!
And what in the F world makes you think somebody stole ore from ME? I'm just discusing here, expressing my self. I have never been victim of ore thef. It doesn't take a victim to know they have it too easy.
Ok, that's fair enough. The 'You' was aimed at any miner who let the ore thief have it that easy.
Miners can choose to mine without risk (i.e. using giant secures), or with the risk of theft (using jet-cans). This is their own choice, and a pretty good example of the EVE Risk vs. Reward way.
If the miner chooses the risky way, he can still protect his ore if he is smart about it, and the ore thief will most likely die when he tries to get it. Just by NOT being in a noob corp protects a miner a lot since any thieves will run the risk of friends decloaking or warping in. The miner has plenty of options.
If the miner chooses the risky way of mining, and chooses not to protect his ore in any way, it's his own bloody fault if someone steals it. As you say, there is only a slight risk for the thief in this scenario, but then again, the miner also has a scenario without risk (secure cans).
Having it any other way would make empire mining a free ISK-printing machine, and would at the same time make macro mining much easier. It would also mean lower mineral prices (more afk/macro miners), so the miners wouldn't gain anything.
There is no reason for bigger secure cans. The ones we have are big enough. As I said before, if you use the right method, you can solo-mine (no alts or friends) using secure cans and still get about 90% of the ore per time that you get with jets.
General advice: Stop whining! |
Tobias Sjodin
Caldari Ore Mongers SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.04 20:56:00 -
[58]
Move away from hi-sec.
[OMG! SMASH!] |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.02.04 21:27:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: Shameless Avenger People here are starting to go down the "you are stupid" kind of posts instead of discussing things like the reasons (pros/cons) of the proposed solutions like a bigger secure cans. The "it's the miner's fault" have been said infinite times in multiple threads, that's not the issue. The fact is that the miner<->ore-thief escenario is unbalanced. The options for the miner rigth now are not very good.?
The options for the miner are perfectly good. Lock target, warp scramble, launch drones and hit "engage target". Pick up loot.
Ore thieves fly around in UNARMED HAULERS. The scenario is perfectly balanced, if miners weren't so afraid of pvp that they won't even engage an unarmed hauler. If miners actually bothered to protect their ore properly, 95% of theft would end in a dead ore thief. The solution is for miners to use the tools they already have, not for CCP to change the rules to do it for them.
You are totally uninformed. Ore thief move in Drake, Dominix, Meghatron, Raven, Assault frigates, rarely in a T1 frigate
all the above in high sec. So you don't launch your 5 medium drones. You go in station and pick your BS.
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2007.02.04 22:21:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 04/02/2007 22:18:03
Originally by: Venkul Mul You are totally uninformed. Ore thief move in Drake, Dominix, Meghatron, Raven, Assault frigates, rarely in a T1 frigate
all the above in high sec. So you don't launch your 5 medium drones. You go in station and pick your BS.
1) EVE is an MMORPG. Which means you have friends, so use them. 5v1 the thief and take his stuff.
2) A thief in a combat ship isn't going to be stealing much, thanks to the small cargo hold. If he wants your ore, he's going to have to come back in an industrial and THEN you kill him. Of course he could always just shoot the can, but then he's just wasted his time for no reward, and probably won't be coming back.
Or like you said, you get your own combat ship. But the point is the same, as a miner you have tools to defend yourself. Use them instead of whining to CCP that you aren't making maximum profit with no risk.
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