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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2007.01.17 06:08:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Risien Drogonne on 17/01/2007 06:07:52
Originally by: Galk
I think it's when you see replies like this: (heads in the sand quick)
Linkage
bidding 800mil for your bpo, will have isk once i sell time cards :)
My offer of 800mil still stands as long as the time cards sell
Yeah, pretty obvious.. and like when people on admit on thw forum that they fund there pvp losses by buying timecodes....
Bit of a slap in the face when the head GM has this opinion:
Buying your way ahead in EVE is cheating, pure and simple
But it's whatever, ccp allow it so get your head back in the sand.
Uhhhh
Nice try, but he was referring to Ebay, not GTC sales.
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J Valkor
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Posted - 2007.01.17 06:33:00 -
[62]
Edited by: J Valkor on 17/01/2007 06:32:36
Originally by: Tarkan Kador
stuff
Your argument has many fundamental flaws. For instance - If enough GTC's were bought that no player in EvE would ever need to pay for them again, that implies that at some point EvE was injected with an incredible amount of income. If CCP had all the money they would generate over the next five years, now, today, it would give them *more* flexibility to determine how this game functions because they know exactly what they are dealing with. Your argument relies on downplaying both the pure amount of money CCP would have in such a situation and their ability to manage said funds. You are also heavily up-playing the amount of ISK this game is capable of generating. I've seen the list of riches players, this game wouldn't be capable of generating enough ISK for everyone to pay for their GTC's at current prices. If this game was capable of generating that much isk, the people selling the GTC's wouldn't have the income to buy enough cards. If several billionaires with nothing better to do start playing EvE and every newbie is able to make several billion ISK for the pure purpose of only buying GTC's, your "doomsday" scenario may come true. Oh, wait, no, if everyone was loaded enough (i.e had the time to grind out the cash) to pay for all their game time in GTC's then the price of the cards will go up, so the market would readjust itself.
As it stands, your argument is a poorly thought out slippery slope argument (i.e something only pig ******* and high school debate teams use.)
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Aeaus
Tabula Rasa Systems
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.17 06:42:00 -
[63]
Originally by: J Valkor
As it stands, your argument is a poorly thought out slippery slope argument (i.e something only pig ******* and high school debate teams use.)
And of course the GOP. Anyway, I can't see how it's a problem, somebody is still paying real-world money for GTCs, the ISK simply changes hands (it's not created out of nothingness, or unfair methods [macro mining]).
Tanking Survivability Calculator
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Lucio
Gallente
UK Corp
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.01.17 07:53:00 -
[64]
Oh no! The world of Eve is going to be drowned in unsold GTC...
meh
I just pay my subscription fee and play the damn game instead of worrying about whether or not some guy with more $$$ than me is buying ISK.
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Yes, I know I have a negative sec. status but I'm not a pirate damnit! |
Ironforger
Amarr
Tempest Avatars
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Posted - 2007.01.17 08:10:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Ironforger on 17/01/2007 08:07:19
Quote:
Thanks to GTC's, my friends can play and I can recover from losing faction ships to blobs. Everyone wins except pennyless hippies without jobs YARRRR!!
What that guy said
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Mnengli Noiliffe
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Posted - 2007.01.17 08:21:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Mnengli Noiliffe on 17/01/2007 08:21:48
Originally by: Tarkan Kador
That is why GTC for ISK sales is a big problem that will become only bigger as the practice becomes more prevalent. Remember that this game has fixed operating costs each month that must be paid by revenue coming in. It depends on the people who pay, not the people who play. GTC for ISK trades separate these two, and all it takes is for a critical number of payers to stop buying GTCs and subscriptions, in favor of using all those stockpiled account/days of prepaid service vouchers instead.
in other news, moon is about to fall on earth.
I mean really, not everyone in EVE can earn enough isk to buy GTC each month. There are still people who would rather pay $15 than fly only t1 stuff in game, or rather than play 15 hrs per day to earn isk both for next month gtc and for good stuff to fly. There are still new players who physically can't earn 150 mil a month.
Yes some people do earn billions per day by running plexes etc. But all such opportunities are extremely limited so they only allow small percentage of eve population to get their isk worth.
Also, both isk and gtc generation are not uncontrolled. There are lots of isk sinks in game, and GTC production could be frozen by CCP any moment if they consider it's unprofitable. Dont' think CCP are stupet - surely they understand that by selling GTC they "borrow from the their future"...
Oh and in situation you describe, when there are no new players who MUST pay real money for the game so every player can afford GTC, the game is dead anyway so who cares if there are some GTC left unused or not.
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subvert
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Posted - 2007.01.17 08:39:00 -
[67]
Edited by: subvert on 17/01/2007 08:38:12
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Uhhhh
Nice try, but he was referring to Ebay, not GTC sales.
They are the same thing. GTC is just legalized Ebay. CCP has little argument when it comes to ISK selling since they have allowed it through official mechanics. Alliances can buy their way to the top with RL cash via GTC. It has a big impact in a game designed around huge losses and risky PVP
Selling ISK for cash is made possible with GTC also. By buying GTC with ISK and selling the GTC for cash on ebay or anywhere else you convert ISK to cash and complete the circle. This is allowed. Official GTC sellers sell GTC on ebay stores and elsewhere on the web. Guess what? so can you. It's no longer ISK, its a time code, an item that belongs to you.
By CCPs mechanics they cannot do anything if you spend money on GTC and convert GTC to ISK, and they cant do anything if you spend ISK on GTC and convert GTC to cash. The second the ISK turns to a GTC its out of their hands since time codes they have sold dont belong to CCP, they belong to whoever owns the time code.
So it's the same thing. CCP decided 'if you cant beat em, join em' I hope this explains enough for you.
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Ivan Kirilenkov
Forum Moderator
Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2007.01.17 08:43:00 -
[68]
Thread cleaned. This is a topic that tends to evoke very strong emotions on both sides, so please keep it civil, and discuss the topic instead of attacking each other.
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QwaarJet
Gallente
Rage of Angels
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.01.17 08:53:00 -
[69]
Game Time cards are fine. I have no problem with people making ISK from them. And a lot of people have reasons for getting them, maybe they real life problems or health issues which only gives them a limited time on EVE, and i'm sure they would like to enjoy that time, rather than have to make ISK.
"Hobbes, she stepped into the Perimeter Of Wisdom.Run!" |
DarkFenix
Caldari
Pilots From Honour
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Posted - 2007.01.17 09:22:00 -
[70]
So what if people are essentially buying isk? As has been stated many times before, many people can't play Eve enough to get rich enough to buy some of the best stuff. I work long hours, so I don't get much time to play Eve, however my real life expenditure is quite low so I have a bit of cash to throw around on my hobbies, one of which being Eve. Does having a real life mean I'm not allowed to enjoy the game I've played for quite nearly 3 years?
GTC sales are probably the best thing to happen on Eve for me. The skill system already means I don't have to sit around grinding for days to progress my character, and GTC sales mean I don't have to grind 15 hours a day to get any isk. Instead I can focus on the aspect of Eve I love, pvp.
Oh and as to the idiot who said alliances can buy their way to success, get a clue. You can't buy success on Eve, ships and modules are just tools. It's not the size of your t2 fleet that matters, but how you use it.
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Joshua Foiritain
Gallente
Coreli Corporation
Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.01.17 09:32:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Galk
Where did the mighty morale stance go?
CCP sold it of course. 
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[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Malcanis
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Posted - 2007.01.17 09:40:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Futher Bezluden
Edited by: Futher Bezluden on 16/01/2007 20:24:53
Don't be a hater, get a better job so you can do it too.
Good point. And hey, you know what would make sports better? If the losing team had the option to buy a few extra points after the game so they didn't lose after all. Man, that would be so cool. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a hater. Wouldn't you love it if your team played badly but then just ought themselves a victory anyway? I bet you'd be an even bigger fan if they did!
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DarkFenix
Caldari
Pilots From Honour
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Posted - 2007.01.17 09:48:00 -
[73]
Edited by: DarkFenix on 17/01/2007 09:45:30
Originally by: Malcanis
Good point. And hey, you know what would make sports better? If the losing team had the option to buy a few extra points after the game so they didn't lose after all. Man, that would be so cool. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a hater. Wouldn't you love it if your team played badly but then just ought themselves a victory anyway? I bet you'd be an even bigger fan if they did!
I don't suppose you know much about the English football league do you? That's what the 'best' clubs do. They use the colossal funds they get from outside the sport itself to buy themselves all the best players. And it does seem to make their fans very happy indeed.
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Zhu Dark
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.17 09:50:00 -
[74]
Rather than saying "People who spend RL cash on ISK have no life" I dare say "People who can afford to pay for their subscriptions with ISK have no life", since they evidently have enough time to gather that ISK.
Blame the consumers people. I'm pretty sure no one would buy GTC to sell for ISK if noone bought it. Somehow people defend the consumers though, which is very hypocritical.
"In the abscense of orders find something - and kill it."-Erwin Rommel |
Jin Freaks
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Posted - 2007.01.17 10:13:00 -
[75]
Please don't flame me to death.
Did u guys ever play Asian games? There are loads of "free" MMOs that have special ingame shops where u can buy special equipment pets etc with RL cash. It's a good system and has kept many many MMOs up and running.
The biggest plus with selling GTCs is that it keeps people from turning to Ebay
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R3dSh1ft
Caldari
FIRMA
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.01.17 10:41:00 -
[76]
ultimately things balance out i think. for those poeple who can't afford the sub its a good thing, after all, for as many people who buy a GTC there is one person who gets their sub paid free that month.
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Kuolematon
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2007.01.17 10:45:00 -
[77]
What makes me wonder is that why do people use illegial ISK sellers for far higher prices (isk for dollar ratio) than legit way of doing GTC.
Some people are truly stupid
Playing Caldari-Online as a Amarr specced is PURE Hardcore (aka. stupid).
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Lost Ninja
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Posted - 2007.01.17 10:56:00 -
[78]
I used to play WoW. I could buy WoW gold froma variety of sources but none were legit as Blizzard don't like RMT. Fine.
If I had bought gold and got scammed I would have lost my money, I might have lost my patience with the game and left, as IMO gold in WoW is far more serious than ISK in EVE.
By legalizing RMT CCP have leveled the playing field; they have also, providing the right channels are used, made it safer for everyone to use. And incedentaly cut down on GM time working on "OMG Xxxxxx bought ISK!!!!" complaints. For CCP its a win win situation. For their customers its a win win situation.
If I ever get to the point where I can comfortably lose 150m ISK for a GTC I would.
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Esaka
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.01.17 13:36:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Tarkan Kador
Now getting back to that guy who bought $4000 worth of GTCs. Those GTCs allow him to play for 18 years, and 3 months. Which brings up a very serious question. Will EVE still be here in 18 years? As soon as EVE announces it is being cancelled, what is going to happen to all those GTCs? They will become as worthless as the plastic they are printed on.
So that evil uberrich GTC selling guy has paid subscription for 18 accounts (out of 100k?) for one year. Oh yeah.. i can feel how its going to kill CCPs business model.
Originally by: Tarkan Kador
The only thing that isn't being constantly generated is consumption of GTCs. There are hard, fixed limits to consumption of GTCs. For starters, GTCs can only be consumed at a rate of one GTC/per account/per term. Whatever isn't consumed can be traded, or stockpiled.
There is no fixed limited on GTC consumption. If you have that many GTCards why not open up another account, mess around with different stuff you're not doing on your first one? I think that a number of people can afford to run multiple accounts just because somebody else pays for them.
Why would people stockpile GTCards? I think somebody pointed it out earlier, if they could it would drive up the prices which in turn then leveled out. But even assuming that they would stockpile, there was a dev post which said the usual player stays around for less then a year (was it 7 or 11 months?). If they get the brilliant idea of stockpiling GTCards then CCP makes alot of money for delivering nothing.
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Agent & Mission-Info: http://www.eveinfo.com
Evewide Market-Info: http://eve-central.com/ |
Zar Dim
Minmatar
Anus Horriblis
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Posted - 2007.01.17 14:05:00 -
[80]
I don't like trading game money for RL cash. I think this is not correct but there are obvious good parts in GTC.
1) Theya did not have any effect on economics. Because in fact this is transfer of ISK from one person to another and not magically added ISK
2) It allows peeps with low income to play the game, and there are plenty of those around. And i do like when the server is populated.
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Valan
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Posted - 2007.01.17 14:23:00 -
[81]
Now I understand why gank and non-constual PvP complaints have gone up.
When a pirate blows up your faction ship paid for by RL cash through GTCs and then collects your loot. He has actually mugged you without any fear from the law.
So 2 billion isk for a faction ship and a few good mods costs around $264 dollars at isk sellers. I blow it up and get a few hundred mill from it. If I use that to pay for my account through GTCs I'm actually saving RL money.
So I've actually mugged you and saved money albeit not much as if I did it in the street.
This is the best bit, the victim is happy and having fun! I'm taking money off him and he doesn't even mind.
/start sig
I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on.
/end sig |
Lucio
Gallente
UK Corp
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.01.17 14:38:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Valan
Now I understand why gank and non-constual PvP complaints have gone up.
When a pirate blows up your faction ship paid for by RL cash through GTCs and then collects your loot. He has actually mugged you without any fear from the law.
So 2 billion isk for a faction ship and a few good mods costs around $264 dollars at isk sellers. I blow it up and get a few hundred mill from it. If I use that to pay for my account through GTCs I'm actually saving RL money.
So I've actually mugged you and saved money albeit not much as if I did it in the street.
This is the best bit, the victim is happy and having fun! I'm taking money off him and he doesn't even mind.
That's an interesting point, anyone who'se lost an expensive T2 BPO to a bug / pirates fancy bringing a lawsuit for loss of earnings against CCP?
After all, what people forget is that you can still turn GTC back into real cash as well (though not always easily), but in theory it's possible to make a living simply by playing Eve...
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Yes, I know I have a negative sec. status but I'm not a pirate damnit! |
thoradh
AirHawk Alliance
Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.17 14:44:00 -
[83]
Edited by: thoradh on 17/01/2007 14:41:58
GTC selling/buying works very well in 2 scenarios:
EVE subscriber with lots of free time dos'ent have the RL cash to pay, or dos'ent want to bother paying CCP, while they have tons of isk. Person buys game time for isk.
EVE subscriber is very busy in RL and dos'ent want to devote lots of very valuable time (in RL cash terms) to making isk to PvP or whatever. Person buys in-game artifacts to allow them to do what they really want.
Depending on what I'm doing in RL (I'm a freelancer so sometimes I have lots of free time, other times I'm crazy busy and cannot affort the time to make isk) I will be either of the people mentioned above.
It actually works very well for me, so I'm ok with CCP officially sanctioned and regulated GTC trading.
>
> Noli illegitimi carborundum!
> |
Valan
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Posted - 2007.01.17 15:36:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Lucio
Originally by: Valan
Now I understand why gank and non-constual PvP complaints have gone up.
When a pirate blows up your faction ship paid for by RL cash through GTCs and then collects your loot. He has actually mugged you without any fear from the law.
So 2 billion isk for a faction ship and a few good mods costs around $264 dollars at isk sellers. I blow it up and get a few hundred mill from it. If I use that to pay for my account through GTCs I'm actually saving RL money.
So I've actually mugged you and saved money albeit not much as if I did it in the street.
This is the best bit, the victim is happy and having fun! I'm taking money off him and he doesn't even mind.
That's an interesting point, anyone who'se lost an expensive T2 BPO to a bug / pirates fancy bringing a lawsuit for loss of earnings against CCP?
After all, what people forget is that you can still turn GTC back into real cash as well (though not always easily), but in theory it's possible to make a living simply by playing Eve...
Thats the EULA friendly version if actually ebay the ISK I would get a greater return. Or I could change into GTCs myself and sell them on ebay. I'm obviosuly not getting the full cash sum as the ship goes pop. But the fact remains I'm taking your money.
/start sig
I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on.
/end sig |
Bawldeux IV
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.01.17 15:37:00 -
[85]
CCP, with head in sand, ignores this because they make real live $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ off it.
So CCP, wy not just pull out that butt plug, make a little change to the site, and allow players to buy isk directly from CCP, instead of off the players in the game???
While I think the act of buying isk via any means is moronic to do, if you are going to allow it via proxy, why not cut out the exploiters of the system, and just rake in the cash for your own wallets??
...or is this one of those "we don't do it, we have someone do it for us, so we are not guilty of any wrong doing" things???
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Valan
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Posted - 2007.01.17 15:55:00 -
[86]
I've always been against it. But knew it wouldn't been changed. You just have to find a point of view to deal with it.
I'm OK with now leave it as it is. Taking money of people with more money than sense appeals to me no end.
/start sig
I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on.
/end sig |
Corbin Devereux
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.01.17 16:40:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Corbin Devereux on 17/01/2007 16:37:14
Originally by: Irrilian
I was playing Monopoly earlier today. I wasn't having much luck so during a break I went out and bought another box. After the return from the break the game went a lot better, whenever I needed more cash I just reached into the other box and used its cash. Counting out notes grew a bit tiresome after a while, so I grabbed a handful of hotels and location cards too.
I like Monopoly now.
QFT
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Astorothe
Ono-Sensai
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Posted - 2007.01.17 16:52:00 -
[88]
How the heck do you expect me to buy my +5 implants without GTCs - No way Im grinding all that ISK!
*cheeky grin*
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Valan
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Posted - 2007.01.17 17:20:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Astorothe
Edited by: Astorothe on 17/01/2007 16:54:39
How the heck do you expect me to buy my +5 implants without GTCs?
*cheeky grin*
I personally don't think this is a big deal - and have no problems with it. More power to you though, if you do.
You do realise how little an increase that extra point makes when training a skill  Forget to skill for an hour per year and you probably lose the advantage. (this is were some maths head comes along and proves it to be 1.58676 hours)
I can understand buying a BPO to some extent but a full rack of +5s. That can disappear in a blink.
In fact posting that is bad, a empire pk corp may just target you to ruin your day.
/start sig
I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on.
/end sig |
Taram Caldar
Caldari
Acheron Vanguard Armada
Storm Armada
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Posted - 2007.01.17 17:25:00 -
[90]
Preface:
- I don't sell GTC's for ISK - I don't feel like wasting RL money on a game. If I need ISK I go earn it the normal way.
- I don't buy GTC's with ISK... I may eventually though because, quite frankly, the idea of playing for free appeals to me.
- I don't have a problem with people selling GTC's for ISK
Now... the reason I don't have a problem with it is as follows:
- It allows people who otherwise couldn't afford to pay to do play for free.
- It allows people who can afford to pay the option of not paying, thus saving money for a 2nd or 3rd account if they so chose, or to maintain a sub to another MMO altogether while still playing EVE
- It reduces the profit margin of the 3rd Party "Gold" sellers on the internet
- As a result of the above it also reduces the number of 'macro miners' in the game because their profit margin for selling ISK for cash is drastically reduced
Pay close attention to those last two items. While I really don't care one way or another about GTC selling I am VERY glad CCP did it for those last two reasons. Those of you up on your high horses about RMT need to consider those last two side-effects of GTC sales very carefully.
Since GTC sales became a reality have you not noticed the radical decline in the number of 'macro miners' about? The fact that the newb systems aren't always mined out anymore? Why do you think that is? It's not because less people are playing, that's for sure. It's because the "gold sellers" are slowly closing up shop in EVE because there's not enough profit in it anymore. Let them go to WoW with their crap.
If allowing people to sell GTC's for ISK is the price we pay? I'm all for it. At least it's legit players buying a GTC rather than gold farmers mining out all of empire and lowsec to sell the profits from selling those minerals for real $$$. They were slowly destroying the game (and the economy). The GTC sales fixed that.
If for no other reason that 1 simple fact has 100% sold me on the GTC sales being a GOOD thing for EVE. Yeah, so an alliance (or a very foolish wealthy person) can generate a couple billion ISK a month if they're willing to sink THOUSANDS into GTC's to sell... but hey.. if they wanna waste that kind of money? Let them. No skin off my back. And as a bonus several players get to play for free, totally subsidized by the rich fools who are taking the 'easy road' to get rich in game.
go ahead... buy a CNR with ISK you got from selling GTC's.... it'll just hurt that much more when someone blows it out from under you. Frankly? I could care less about GTC Sellers... They don't hurt me, or the game. And the people who think they do are being extremely short sighted.
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