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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Marton Gastolfer
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Posted - 2007.01.16 09:59:00 -
[1]
Please bear with me reading all the post before replying, at is can seem offending but it don’t want to be. As I am not a native English speaker this aren’t easy concepts to express.
Essentially Privateer Alliance had found the system to use terrorist tactics in the EVE world.
The tactics they use are those used in the past by ETA, the USA minuteman, Italian and French partisan, the VietCong and the current factions in Iraq. To some this comparison can seem offending, but what I am doing is only a tactical comparison, not a moral one.
The fact that the different corporations enter the alliance to join to wars and then leave to rebuild, is not different from the above mentioned irregular forces, that now can be a civilian tilling his camp, and after 10 minutes be a sniping group harassing enemy troops or assaulting a supply convoy.
In all history regular troops have had an hard time suppressing this kind of enemies. The solution found so far have been: 1) destroying the support base, killing all who is thought as a sympathizer and all the infrastructures that support the guerrilla fighters (like the Cambogian carpet bombing done by Nixon); 2) try to find a political solution to the issues that have generated the resistance (Nord Ireland, Spain); 3) kill enough of the fighters to get them to desist, doing that even when doing the civilian activities; 4) leaving (Viet Nam).
In EVE implementing those solutions is hard: 1) most if not all of the PA corporations haven’t targettable assets, no POS and no mining activities while in war; 2) possible with some of the corporations part of PA, but not all of them; 3) almost impossible in high security as CONCORD protect them as soon as they leave a war, and EVE is structured as to make almost impossible to make a character unplayable (clones will save your skill points, low level frigates are cheap enough), and no one can war decc all of them, even more is some start to switch to NPC corps and then join other PA corps; 4) in this case it mean leaving the game.
In substance the PA have taken a instrument build for conventional wars, the war declaration, and converted it to use in un-conventional wars.
As the above stand, I feel that the Developers must think carefully what they want here.
What PA is doing is totally within the letter of the current rules, but the same current rules protect them from the fallout of their actions, as they can easily distance themselves from the enemies (leaving the alliance) and don’t have assets to lose outside of the ships they are currently controlling.
A possible but very doubtful solution could be some form of kill rights even in war, so that a partisan becoming a civilian is still targettable, but that can be an extremely exploitable option.
Currently I don’t see other possible solutions to suggest.
Again I apologize if I have offended someone, as this is not intended to be a flame to what is a legitimate and often used tactic in history, but an invite to the DEV analyze all the ramification of this kind of tactic.
I hare re-posted all the argument I posted in another thread as I fear I will be lost in the longer thread
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Mitsune Konno
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Posted - 2007.01.16 10:05:00 -
[2]
eventually they'll **** off enough people and be crushed out of existence. It's inevitable.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.16 10:09:00 -
[3]
It will be very hard to destroy Privateers if they don't have significant assets around. I also suspect a lot of them to be alts, which makes it even harder.
One question though: What does a surrender mean in terms of a corp war? I only noticed this happening after my corp left ASCN which generated an automatic surrender so the empire wardec ended after 24 hours. Does this have any other implications aside from ending the war?
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Nathaniel Hull
Caldari Finis Lumen The SUdden Death Squad
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Posted - 2007.01.16 10:10:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Nathaniel Hull on 16/01/2007 10:07:39 They found nothing. This kinda thing has been going since the dawn of EvE. Ever heard of Veto or any other of your "terrorist" groups. They have always been there. Decking mining corps is a fat comercial shipping target ....isn't that the essence of piracy and isn't that an essential part of the game. I think CCP needs to change nothing in reguards to this. These are mercs and privateers they will always exist and because some corps have little leadership to tell them even to hide out while at war if they cant fight noobs who dont pay attention will die.
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Makree
Ubar Asteroid Hugging Collective
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Posted - 2007.01.16 10:33:00 -
[5]
The Privateers are using a valid game mechanism (the wardec) to get what they want - PvP. If the combat system was not to borked then they would not have to use this method. But until CCP fix combat then enterprising players will use what is available.
To view the Privateers as terrorists will get you nowhere. They are far too independent and free sprited for that label, they are indeed more like historical privateers. But instead of having a letter form Betty giving them the right to bash a few spaniards, they have letters from CONCORD giving them the right to bash a few corps.
In terms of dealing with the Privateers I would suggest either. Give them a stash of cash to leave you alone, they need lots of it to fight their wars. Or grow some gonads and fight them.
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Smagd
Encina Technologies Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.01.16 10:51:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Mitsune Konno eventually they'll **** off enough people and be crushed out of existence. It's inevitable.
I hesitate to even answer this, but the point being made in the OP is that exactly this won't happen, because they can leave and rejoin their alliance at leisure.
If you're lucky enough to find 30 Privateers in a station worth camping 23/7 with a substantial force, chances are that either they'll use their mains till you're bored or LEAVE THE ALLIANCE (or corp) and undock free to go.
And the best part is: Most likely, for all the campers outside the overview will still show them as legal war targets.
Only Concord will disagree with shooting them. --
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ScreamingLord Sutch
Hand in Mouth
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Posted - 2007.01.16 10:56:00 -
[7]
You mention "solution", this implies you think there is a problem. I'd be curious if you could share what you think that is?
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Mira deVorsha
Caldari Boards.ie
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Posted - 2007.01.16 11:07:00 -
[8]
I'm pretty sure the vietcong couldn't just quit and go do some farming before going back to fight while the US couldn't touch them.
Talk about trying to blow this out of proportion.
Here is a quicker summary of the situation. PA = Valid gameplay.
Leaving PA isn't the issue. Because if they wanted they could just pay PA and never join them in the first case and they will continue the war for them.
The issue is in the holiday empire pirates that are using PA just to get loot then at the first sign of risk leave for an NPC corp to hide behind.
I'd prefer CCP fixed that form of cowardice.
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Katamarino
Blazing Angels Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.16 11:12:00 -
[9]
I think the problem is that the PA tactics distort what CCP want the game to be like - for this reason:
We have High sec, and Low sec. A war dec makes the entire game nto low sec for the decced alliances. Now, when PA have decced a high enough proportion of players, high sec will effectively become meaningless, and the entire game low sec for a majority of players.
Since this completely undermines the point of even *having* high and low sec, I think it is inevitable that if PA continue to launch more and more decs, CCP will step in to fix things before the game balance is seriously undermined.
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Mira deVorsha
Caldari Boards.ie
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Posted - 2007.01.16 11:20:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Katamarino Since this completely undermines the point of even *having* high and low sec, I think it is inevitable that if PA continue to launch more and more decs, CCP will step in to fix things before the game balance is seriously undermined.
Sorry but I disagree. Player corps by their nature are Low-Sec. Even if you were to never step foot in 0.0 space.
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Miri Tirzan
Caldari Clan Korval
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Posted - 2007.01.16 11:20:00 -
[11]
Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch You mention "solution", this implies you think there is a problem. I'd be curious if you could share what you think that is?
In my opinion the problem is not that PA can wardec anyone they feel like, it is that corps can leave and re-join. I put this on the same level as a player leaving a corp that has been wardec'ed and then rejoining while the war is still on going. It is considered an exploit if a player does this but it is "ok" for an entire corporation.
Personally, I think the only change that needs to be made is that either a corp "CANNOT" leave an alliance during a war that is initiated by it's alliance or if a corp leaves an alliance during a war, then the corp cannot rejoin the alliance till the alliance is at peace. This puts an end to the sign up to fight for a week and then drop out to make ISK or hide if the PvP gets too rough.
But then I also think that any corp that leaves an alliance that initates a war, or a player that leaves a corp that initiates war, should remain at war till the wardec comes up for funding again. Notice I said the side that starts the war not the side that has war declared on it.
There should be some impact on starting a war and if the action gets too hot, then too bad, that is the down side of starting a war.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Katamarino
Blazing Angels Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.16 11:22:00 -
[12]
They are by their nature low sec for finite periods of time, yes. But to date noone has tried to perma-war the majority of EVE, and I consider it unlikely that this is what CCP had in mind for the war dec system.
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Drunken Claptrap
Ganksters Paradise
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Posted - 2007.01.16 11:23:00 -
[13]
Don't really have a problem with Privateers. In fact we war decced them, and came out with an 18-0, 100% efficiency ratio. There were 8 of us in the corp at the time, and we just played them at their own game.
It was good fun and smack free.
Ganksters Paradise Website |
Civ Rie
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Posted - 2007.01.16 11:24:00 -
[14]
Well, I see a simple solution to the jumping in and out of the alliances and what else.
Simply disable the ability to join/leave Alliance and Corporations while an outstanding war is active.
eg; You declare war on someone, your stuck untill you finish it. eg; someone declares war on you, you can still scatter and flee.
Hence the rule would only apply for wars the corp/alliance declare, not wars that have been declared on them.
You go to war, you stand for it!
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Davros Johnstone
The Sanctum
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Posted - 2007.01.16 11:24:00 -
[15]
The Privateer Alliance is the most interesting thing to have happened on the forums since ACSNs Titan fell. The **** storm they have kicked up is highly entertaining!
This is the way Eve is supposed to be, if u are in huge groups in empire basically soloing everything, you are putting yourself at risk to War Decs by association. Choose your Corp/Alliance wisely.
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Anatolius
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.16 11:27:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Katamarino Since this completely undermines the point of even *having* high and low sec, I think it is inevitable that if PA continue to launch more and more decs, CCP will step in to fix things before the game balance is seriously undermined.
What balance? If you are in a player-run corporation, you are subject to the threat of war. What difference does it make whether there are a hundred seperate Empire wars going on at once, or if it's a single alliance declaring war on a hundred corporations and Alliances?
"If God be for us, whom can be against us?" |
Xsag
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2007.01.16 11:48:00 -
[17]
u realise the easist way to solve the PA problem (that im sooooo bored of listening to whiners post about on these boards). Make note of every corporation you encounter that is part of PA - everytime you find one has left - wardec the one that has left - that way they wont have time to "rebuild", this would take an alliance of decent resources admittedly but im sure well within the grasp of several corps / alliances. Keep doing this to any corp leaving PA - if they stop wardeccing corps because they need to recover then it is time to go on the offensive and wardec all remaining corps in PA.
who knows next ppl will be moaning about goonswarm (if u do i will laugh in your face)
~n00b of all trades~ ~~Airkio~~ / ~~Muvolailen~~ ~if im posting on here its cos im in work~ |
Marton Gastolfer
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Posted - 2007.01.16 11:56:00 -
[18]
Someone asked: what is the problem.
Only one: the system work, and require little resources.
So more people will joing PA or form is equivalent alliance.
Currently we have about 300 Privateers with about 3.000 (very rough estimates) targets in high sec.
That is 1% of EVE total population involved not in a territorial/resources war but in a free for all in high security.
If some has written PA is fast growing to 600 persons and and the target are growing with the same rate as the new joining corporation add more wars, most of the non NPC corporation people in hig sec will be involved.
So those research POS so often suggested as the solution for the eccessive waiting list for research will be closed, mining ops by non NPC corp member will disappear (giving an easy time to ore thiefs), and a lot of things will be slowed or disrupted.
From what I read at first all of EVE was low sec, and CCP found the need to correct that.
Now this threaten to trasform high sec in 0.0 (not even low sec, no protection by sentry guns) for a good splice of people, leaving as a solution for them:
a) join a NPC corporation; b) go in low sec/0.0 and always play NBSI.
Both options will leave new players out of the corporation play, as recruiting is done mostly in high sec.
Obviusly what is depicted above is extrapholating the situation to the limit, as rarely a corporation will be selected if under a specific limit of members or seldo active, but it can go on long enough to do some serious damage to the current structure of EVE.
Maybe this is acceptable and even wanted by the Developers, I only think they need to evalutate fast if that is what they want.
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Xsag
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2007.01.16 12:00:00 -
[19]
"Now this threaten to trasform high sec in 0.0 (not even low sec, no protection by sentry guns) for a good splice of people, leaving as a solution for them:"
LOL yeah when i get dictor bubbled in high sec ill agree with you until then - NOOOO
~n00b of all trades~ ~~Airkio~~ / ~~Muvolailen~~ ~if im posting on here its cos im in work~ |
Infinity Ziona
Privateers Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.16 12:01:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 16/01/2007 12:00:24
Originally by: Miri Tirzan
Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch You mention "solution", this implies you think there is a problem. I'd be curious if you could share what you think that is?
In my opinion the problem is not that PA can wardec anyone they feel like, it is that corps can leave and re-join. I put this on the same level as a player leaving a corp that has been wardec'ed and then rejoining while the war is still on going. It is considered an exploit if a player does this but it is "ok" for an entire corporation.
Personally, I think the only change that needs to be made is that either a corp "CANNOT" leave an alliance during a war that is initiated by it's alliance or if a corp leaves an alliance during a war, then the corp cannot rejoin the alliance till the alliance is at peace. This puts an end to the sign up to fight for a week and then drop out to make ISK or hide if the PvP gets too rough.
But then I also think that any corp that leaves an alliance that initates a war, or a player that leaves a corp that initiates war, should remain at war till the wardec comes up for funding again. Notice I said the side that starts the war not the side that has war declared on it.
There should be some impact on starting a war and if the action gets too hot, then too bad, that is the down side of starting a war.
First off your suggestion would be absurd for Privateers and many other alliances since many are constantly at war and no corp could ever leave them once joined up.
Secondly what exactly is the issue, benefit to them, problem that affects you when a corp leaves and rejoins while at war with you?
As for the way Privateers is deccing, its exactly the sort of thing that CCP says they want happening. Oveur has repeatedly stated that he loves to see the way the playerbase develops the sandbox in ways the developers never imagined and this is exactly what Privateers is doing - Creating a new aspect of EvE play, that is based on the former small war deccing corps methodology but on a much grander scale.
Whining and complaining will most probably not change the devs minds on this issue, as it never did in the past, because its clear whether you like it or not, that they want to see hardcore mean dirty nasty EvE The Privateering Life |
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Xsag
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2007.01.16 12:07:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Infinity Ziona Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 16/01/2007 12:00:24
Originally by: Miri Tirzan
Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch You mention "solution", this implies you think there is a problem. I'd be curious if you could share what you think that is?
In my opinion the problem is not that PA can wardec anyone they feel like, it is that corps can leave and re-join. I put this on the same level as a player leaving a corp that has been wardec'ed and then rejoining while the war is still on going. It is considered an exploit if a player does this but it is "ok" for an entire corporation.
Personally, I think the only change that needs to be made is that either a corp "CANNOT" leave an alliance during a war that is initiated by it's alliance or if a corp leaves an alliance during a war, then the corp cannot rejoin the alliance till the alliance is at peace. This puts an end to the sign up to fight for a week and then drop out to make ISK or hide if the PvP gets too rough.
But then I also think that any corp that leaves an alliance that initates a war, or a player that leaves a corp that initiates war, should remain at war till the wardec comes up for funding again. Notice I said the side that starts the war not the side that has war declared on it.
There should be some impact on starting a war and if the action gets too hot, then too bad, that is the down side of starting a war.
First off your suggestion would be absurd for Privateers and many other alliances since many are constantly at war and no corp could ever leave them once joined up.
Secondly what exactly is the issue, benefit to them, problem that affects you when a corp leaves and rejoins while at war with you?
As for the way Privateers is deccing, its exactly the sort of thing that CCP says they want happening. Oveur has repeatedly stated that he loves to see the way the playerbase develops the sandbox in ways the developers never imagined and this is exactly what Privateers is doing - Creating a new aspect of EvE play, that is based on the former small war deccing corps methodology but on a much grander scale.
Whining and complaining will most probably not change the devs minds on this issue, as it never did in the past, because its clear whether you like it or not, that they want to see hardcore mean dirty nasty EvE
im not in pa i dont even agree with wot ur doing but....
/SIGNED
lets face it u lot are really getting some ppls knickers in a twist with all ur antics i think its great, almost as good as the goonswarm attacking with ibis (thats just the best thing ever)
~n00b of all trades~ ~~Airkio~~ / ~~Muvolailen~~ ~if im posting on here its cos im in work~ |
Marshy 3rd
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Posted - 2007.01.16 12:10:00 -
[22]
Heres a solution make ya self an alt who can use smartbombs get all your corpys to do the same. set up a frig or cruiser and go smartbomb there asses. get them before they find you camp there stations if there using cheap ships there gonan go pop pretty quick. just make sure you station yourselves a distance frtom each other doing it otherwise you will blow each other.
you could use the mechanics to your advantage and ****s them off show some back bone and they probably get bored and move on.
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Tiny Tove
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Posted - 2007.01.16 12:12:00 -
[23]
A popular passtime among partially enlightened Eve players is comparing Eve to RL events or activities.
Eve is not chess. Eve is not geo-political RL warfare.
You seem to have misunderstood quite a bit of PA's agenda and activity also. All that PA is, is just somebody who had the nerve to exploit the game wardec mechanic so quickly, and with so many people, that CCP cannot touch them.
It really is that simple. A person leaving/rejoining a Corp to have a break from your war as an individual is an exploit. However, the PA model is entire corps leaving, to become non-wardec'd, and then even going to the length of leaving that corp to NPC corp, to get a break from the war, has been denoted, not a game exploit.
To achieve such a blinding exploit status and then get GM approval for the actions is a clearly amazing achievement. The amount of sheer balls, corruption, and fun provided is off the scale, and you have to take your hats off to them.
It seems the only bit they missed out, was not getting any forum moderators in there pockets along with the GMs they have apparently corrupted. This could explain why you see so many posts about this exploit go unlocked, and so many PA people screaming out for the threads to be locked the moment they appear.
Try mentioning macro miners and see how long it is before your thread gets locked. Not long I can tell you. You might even think that the macro users have already corrupted the forum moderators, and there aren't any independent ones left for PA to subvert.
While the GMs/mods/ccp could be horrified that anybody could have "wrong thoughts" on that subject, if they can provide a better explanation of how this situation arose, I'm all ears. But in reality the usual path will occur; moderation->sweep under rug->no public accountability->nothing to see here, move along.
And to add further hypocrisy to my post, the CCP whitewash approach to it is very much like RL geopolitics.
Why bring up macros? Because macros/sweatshops are very much like PA. Basically cheating on such a large scale that they choose the CCP agenda, not CCP. Hate the cheating by all means, but respect the sheer audacity of them to do it and get away with it.
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Mira deVorsha
Caldari Boards.ie
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Posted - 2007.01.16 12:12:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Katamarino They are by their nature low sec for finite periods of time, yes.
No they are not. All it needs is to annoy the wrong person and they can pretty much set up a war to run forever with your corp and any number of corps that are in it for the money.
There is no such thing as finite unless your broke.
Quote: But to date noone has tried to perma-war the majority of EVE,
That isn't what PA are doing. TBH it wouldn't surprise me if PA accepted cash for stopping war decs (to the same amount).
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widgetman
Widgetland
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Posted - 2007.01.16 12:14:00 -
[25]
What annoys me is that people get angry with this and its all part of Eve . I loved being in Privateers and if i want as a Solo player i can also War dec whoever i like? As for those who think its all alts , well im not an alt and quite happy to post with my main and fight with my main. What needs to happen is that people should understand the Alliance they join and not think that by joining a large alliance it lets them do as they please in High sec.
Go get them Privateers
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holla alt
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Posted - 2007.01.16 12:29:00 -
[26]
Edited by: holla alt on 16/01/2007 12:27:25 absolutely everyone has missed the point.
riddle me this:
1. how many active war decs can a single corp/alliance make? 2. how many active war decs does PRVTR (lets use their real ticker as well shall we) have?
if 2 > 1 then imma go ahead and call 'sploits.
The reason the corps keep leaving and rejoining is to get around the limit on the number of wars. THIS IS EXPLOITING, plain and simple.
and i cant believe that this is 'acceptable' behaviour
edit: and if this IS acceptable in the eyes of the GM's, why not just remove the limit on the number of wars you can dec
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Max Godsnottlingson
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Posted - 2007.01.16 12:33:00 -
[27]
The main problem with the PA war, isn't the high sec consta war, isn't the Corps cycling in and out of the Alliance. It that a big majority, if not the majority of PA are alts. As somebody succinctly put it in an earlier post 'Holiday Pirates' or weekend warriors. Alts mean that a player can happily mine, rat or what ever they do to raise their isk, then spend time attacking other players trying to do the same in High sec.
No, there is nothing to stop players who have been targeted by PA doing the same, but things get messy. While I don't see that it is possible to remove Alts at this stage of the game perhaps having some system in game to link a players characters together is what is needed. Then the war can be taken to the source of the problem, a players main isk making character
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Brian Ballbag
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Posted - 2007.01.16 12:38:00 -
[28]
Just another victim.
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Rayvonuk
Privateers
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Posted - 2007.01.16 12:40:00 -
[29]
Originally by: holla alt Edited by: holla alt on 16/01/2007 12:27:25 absolutely everyone has missed the point.
riddle me this:
1. how many active war decs can a single corp/alliance make? 2. how many active war decs does PRVTR (lets use their real ticker as well shall we) have?
if 2 > 1 then imma go ahead and call 'sploits.
The reason the corps keep leaving and rejoining is to get around the limit on the number of wars. THIS IS EXPLOITING, plain and simple.
and i cant believe that this is 'acceptable' behaviour
edit: and if this IS acceptable in the eyes of the GM's, why not just remove the limit on the number of wars you can dec
What ? Its not Exploiting. Find someone else to whine about.
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Joshua Foiritain
Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.01.16 12:41:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Marton Gastolfer 4) in this case it mean leaving the game.
Wrong, people can leave their current alliance or go back to an npc corp. -----
[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
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