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Levin Cavil
Omniscient Order
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Posted - 2007.01.13 07:59:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Levin Cavil on 13/01/2007 07:56:14 I recently got a carrier for my alt and I made what seems now like a terrible mistake. I trained something other than the Thanatos, the Chimera specifically. My thinking was that the Chimera must have some advantage over the Thanatos. It must be designed to do something better than the other carriers.
After attempting to fit the ship I have now realized that the Chimera is approximately 90 CPU short of fitting the same type of setup that a Thanatos can fit with ease. The cause of this is mostly that the Chimera has a bonus to energy transfer and shield transfer. Those two modules combined use 275 CPU. The Thanatos on the other hand has bonuses to armor and shield transfer range which uses 215 CPU. The Thanatos requires 60 less cpu to fit its logistics mods. At this point some of you may be saying "But the Chimeura has more CPU, right?" Yes, it does, 75 more CPU than the Thanatos which leaves 15 CPU to make up the difference between an armor tank and a shield tank.
The Chimera has 7% more CPU than a Thanatos but has 38% less powergrid. Lukily this makes no difference because as far as I can tell it's actually impossible to run a carrier out of powergrid with any kind of realistic setup. Capital shield transfers however use 437% more CPU than an armor transfer and 50% of the powergrid. The PG savings are irrelevant since even with DCU and capital reps carriers have more than enough powergird.
So why is it that the Thanatos has a clear advantage in every single category? Is there some advantage to the Chimera I am missing? With the arrival of rigs the Chimera can now sustain its capital rep eternally (unless it has even one heavy nos on it then it caps out.) The Thanatos however can sustain its tank with 6 heavy nos on it. Granted the carriers are all different ships and must be better at different things. I am having a hard time identifying what the Thanatos is not best at however. The tanks of the Archon and Chimera seem superior on paper and may well be better but it seems that as a package the Thanatos is the best of all the carriers. I am unable to determine a setup for the Chimera that can do what a Thanatos can do. Even with no DCU the Chimera still falls short of what the Thanatos can do. The only way I can see to set up the Chimera without using a CPU module is to use a capital armor transfer which would only have a 15km range.
I am admittedly new to the Carrier scene and maybe I am missing something here but it seems to me that the Thanatos is by a very large margin superior to the other carriers. I don't think it is particularly overpowered, just that the other 3 lack sufficient fitting to compete. I'd like to see the Chimera with 100 more base CPU which would allow it do do something close to what the Thanatos can do. ---------- Eve is balanced: Caldari have to train Rails Minmatar have to train Missiles Gallente have to train Drones Amarr have to train Caldari |
Chronus26
Gallente Vale Heavy Industries SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.13 08:59:00 -
[2]
I've experimented with fittings for all the carriers recently, and I was surprised when I ran out of CPU on both the Phoenix and Chimera. Granted, I was fitting some high-end deadspace modules, but I can fit the similar setups on my Thanatos with ease.
I think perhapse the ampunt of CPU required by the Caldari Capitals was slightly misjudged and could go with a little nudge.
If and when you do get it to fit, the Chimera should be able to tank the most DPS of any carrier due to it being a sheild tanker. It's tank is what is supposed to set it apart.
There are reasons to train Carriers other than the Thanatos, for one the Thanatos can only fit a mediocre tank. According to Aeaus's Tanking Spreadsheet, a well set up Archon can tank twice the DPS of a Thanatos. I've not got numbers for a Chimera to hand but I imagine the results would be similar.
The Thanatos has a 5% bonus to Fighter damage per level, but I am not entirly positive (as it is very difficult to prove) that this damage bonus applys when the Fighters are assigned to your gangmates.
The only other reason to choose a Thanatos is it's massive drone bay, those extra Fighters really come in handy during fleet fights when people decide they really must target all your Fighters. -----
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Levin Cavil
Omniscient Order
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Posted - 2007.01.13 09:25:00 -
[3]
According to my last calculations the Chimera with 3x Gist X-Type hardeners and DG invul with a 39% amp will tank something like 7700DPS forever. Thats certainly an awesome tank but it is also susceptible to nossing. Tanking may well be the strong point of the Chimera and I am ok with that. I am still very unsure of what to do with the high slots however. If they are not meant to be used what exactly are the shield and cap transfer bonuses for? ---------- Eve is balanced: Caldari have to train Rails Minmatar have to train Missiles Gallente have to train Drones Amarr have to train Caldari |
Chronus26
Gallente Vale Heavy Industries SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.13 09:46:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Chronus26 on 13/01/2007 09:42:36
Originally by: Levin Cavil According to my last calculations the Chimera with 3x Gist X-Type hardeners and DG invul with a 39% amp will tank something like 7700DPS forever. Thats certainly an awesome tank but it is also susceptible to nossing. Tanking may well be the strong point of the Chimera and I am ok with that. I am still very unsure of what to do with the high slots however. If they are not meant to be used what exactly are the shield and cap transfer bonuses for?
Well, on my Thanatos at the moment im using 4x Drone Control Units and a Cloak because I dont have the skills for Capital Transfers
If you can use them you could fit a gang link of some description (The sheild resist one would be pretty nice) and some DCUs. I agree that you SHOULD be able to fit at least 2 Capital Transfers if you wish though. -----
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Levin Cavil
Omniscient Order
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Posted - 2007.01.13 10:05:00 -
[5]
As I understand it a carrier can only fit one gang mod before having to sacrifice mids for command processors which OFC nobody wants to do. The shield resistance gangmod would be great and I will likely train for and use that. My ideal highslot setup would be Shield transfer, Energy transfer, Gang mod and 2x DCU. I am about 50-100 cpu short of that depending on what kind of hardeners. With Gist X-type it's something like 60 cpu short. I agree with you, I don't think its unreasonable for the thanatos to be able to fit 2 logistics mods and I expect the same capability of the Chimera. To me the trade between fighters and resistance is fair but the other capabilities should remain similar. ---------- Eve is balanced: Caldari have to train Rails Minmatar have to train Missiles Gallente have to train Drones Amarr have to train Caldari |
Arte
Warspite Developments
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Posted - 2007.01.13 10:11:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Arte on 13/01/2007 10:12:04
Originally by: Chronus26
Well, on my Thanatos at the moment im using 4x Drone Control Units and a Cloak because I dont have the skills for Capital Transfers
I fly Thanatos and the Capital transfers comparitively so much capacitor that you cannot run them and a tank at the same time, for any major length of time. (when trying to set up a tanking network between carriers).
Why would you want to ? Of course if you are not being targetted then you can run the remote rep constantly by turning your own capital reppers off (45km at carrier IV at 300hp/s per module), but when you are trying to support-your-support, they may well need some help even though you are taking flak at the same time.
I guess it all falls down to the nature of the threat and how co-ordinated they are - and that works with the other races as well, just using different considerations. I guess you pick your fights, and that is the same for any ship class in Eve.
I've not tried rigs however so that will surely help with armour amounts (and by default, my own tank) and cap levels (the chosen rigs I envisage fitting).
I have at no time had to worry about fitting requirements on the Thanatos though and just assumed that all the other races were the same. I was surprised in reading this post that it isn't the case.
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Liam Fremen
Gallente Global Isk Network
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Posted - 2007.01.13 10:11:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Liam Fremen on 13/01/2007 10:09:25 I fly Nidhoggur with the following hi slot:
For Pos fighter assignment:
2x Capital Armor Transfer, 3x Drone Control Unit (12 fighters)
For First Line Encounters:
1x Capital Armor Transfer, 1x Drone Control Unit, 3x True Sansha EMP Smartbomb (7.5km)(10 fighters)
For the tank i have no problem at all using 4x true sansha heavy cap boosters with 400 800's in the corp hangar+cargo, 3x capital armor repper, 1x centum a EANM and 1 T2 Damage control.
The remaining 2 med slot are fitted with 2 Invulnerability field t2 that gives me a very good overall shield resistance nearly doubling the hp that they must "chew" beafore reaching my real tank.
I made very extensive testing and cap boosters is the ONLY way for last a dozen of ship on you actively tanking for 20 minutes. Any cap recharge fitting just leave you without cap due to nosferatus in realy realy few.
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Levin Cavil
Omniscient Order
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Posted - 2007.01.13 10:28:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Levin Cavil on 13/01/2007 10:28:12
Originally by: Liam Fremen Edited by: Liam Fremen on 13/01/2007 10:09:25 For the tank i have no problem at all using 4x true sansha heavy cap boosters with 400 800's in the corp hangar+cargo, 3x capital armor repper, 1x centum a EANM and 1 T2 Damage control.
...
I made very extensive testing and cap boosters is the ONLY way for last a dozen of ship on you actively tanking for 20 minutes. Any cap recharge fitting just leave you without cap due to nosferatus in realy realy few.
The first time I heard about injected carries I laughed and then didn't think much more of it. I see now that it is a very viable setup but unfortunately not an option for the Chimera due to its shield tank bonuses. On a related note I would be extremely happy if Crystal implants were modified to increase HP rather than boost amount. Going from 190k shield to 290k would be awesome.
My shield tank is likely vulnerable to nossing but it doesn't have to run forever to give me the same hp/sec average that a dualrep tank gets. This seems like a fair tradeoff and I'm happy to be able to convert cap into HP faster than an armor tank.
The CPU however still makes me cry :/ ---------- Eve is balanced: Caldari have to train Rails Minmatar have to train Missiles Gallente have to train Drones Amarr have to train Caldari |
Liam Fremen
Gallente Global Isk Network
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Posted - 2007.01.13 12:16:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Liam Fremen on 13/01/2007 12:16:24 Edited by: Liam Fremen on 13/01/2007 12:15:06 Edited by: Liam Fremen on 13/01/2007 12:13:20 Edited by: Liam Fremen on 13/01/2007 12:13:00
There are 2 viable setup in chimera too:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chimera with 1 sb + 1 amp + 1 em hard + 1 invul = 832 shield per second + 68,15 average resist makes it: 1399 DPS Tanked. (sustainable for 20 min) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chimera with 1 sb + 2 amp + 1 em hard = 1081 shield per second + 55 average resist makes it: 1676 DPS Tanked. (sustainable for 20 min) -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Theese are both fitting with 3x electrochemical boosters.
PS: triplecapital repper setup with injectors overtank the chimera, my nidhoggur makes:
Niddhogur with 3 capital armor repair + 1 eanm + 1 internal force field = 1200 armor per seconds + 56 average resistance makes it: 1872 DPS Tanked. (sustainable for 15 min)
But you have to add damage control t2 + centum a EANM and you reach about 2000 dps, triple armor repper convert cap into hp faster then 1 cap shield booster.
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Levin Cavil
Omniscient Order
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Posted - 2007.01.13 12:19:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Liam Fremen Edited by: Liam Fremen on 13/01/2007 12:13:20 Edited by: Liam Fremen on 13/01/2007 12:13:00
There are 2 viable setup in chimera too:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chimera with 1 sb + 1 amp + 1 em hard + 1 invul = 832 shield per second + 68,15 average resist makes it: 1399 DPS Tanked. (sustainable for 20 min) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chimera with 1 sb + 2 amp + 1 em hard = 1081 shield per second + 55 average resist makes it: 1676 DPS Tanked. (sustainable for 20 min) -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Theese are both fitting with 3x electrochemical boosters.
Doesn't seem like the resistances with either of those setups would be that great and it would only take two battleships to break that tank. I may as well be flying a megathron at that point. Neither of those setups would touch the tank on a Thanatos. ---------- Eve is balanced: Caldari have to train Rails Minmatar have to train Missiles Gallente have to train Drones Amarr have to train Caldari |
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Liam Fremen
Gallente Global Isk Network
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Posted - 2007.01.13 12:22:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Liam Fremen on 13/01/2007 12:21:48 Edited by: Liam Fremen on 13/01/2007 12:20:23 Edited by: Liam Fremen on 13/01/2007 12:19:06
Originally by: Levin Cavil
Originally by: Liam Fremen Edited by: Liam Fremen on 13/01/2007 12:13:20 Edited by: Liam Fremen on 13/01/2007 12:13:00
There are 2 viable setup in chimera too:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chimera with 1 sb + 1 amp + 1 em hard + 1 invul = 832 shield per second + 68,15 average resist makes it: 1399 DPS Tanked. (sustainable for 20 min) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chimera with 1 sb + 2 amp + 1 em hard = 1081 shield per second + 55 average resist makes it: 1676 DPS Tanked. (sustainable for 20 min) -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Theese are both fitting with 3x electrochemical boosters.
Doesn't seem like the resistances with either of those setups would be that great and it would only take two battleships to break that tank. I may as well be flying a megathron at that point. Neither of those setups would touch the tank on a Thanatos.
Are you sure? do you have in mind how much time it takes to take down about 500.000 total hitpoints? remember that the problem of capital ship is not "lasting more with hardeners" beacause you will at same go down if you can't repair yourself at least.
If you get nossed to hell (and it ALWAYS happens) about all your med slots are just trashed, cap = life, when you are nossed by 10 ships even your hardeners shut down and your AMAZING RESISTANCE just **** up.
I made testing on it, you can do what you want but remember that those 2 battleship will just die beafore they even scratch 20% of you shield :) remmeber that you field more then 1000 dps with fighters, and other 5-6-700 mixed drones.
Now remember smartbombs: 3x 7.5km smarties just REMOVE all drones/fighters/7.5km scrambler that might come near you, even missles get hurted bad (due to the damage bonus of the true sansha sb) is needed for a real tank.
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Levin Cavil
Omniscient Order
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Posted - 2007.01.13 12:53:00 -
[12]
A regular Battelship can do as much DPS as a carrier. I am not disuputing the effectiveness of an injected carrier setup but I dont think it works with a shield tank simply because there arent enough mids to get enough resistance. The thanatos can fit 5 injectors and 2 reps and sustain it or fit 5 cap rechargers and sustain (forever) dual reps with EIGHTEEN heavy nos on it.
With decent hardeners a Thanatos has enough resistance to tank at least 5-6 battleships and probably closer to 8 or 10. This assumes the battleships are set up to deal damage. In order to kill the thanatos you would need at least 10 battleships set up to do damage and somehow nos. It is more realistic that the thanatos would sithstand the attack of 10 damage ships and 2-3 dedicated nos ships. Compare this to an injected chimera which will ahve its tank simply broken by 2-3 bs. The Thanatos can withstand 4x the attackers without even using injectors. The Chimera with 3x injectors would die to 2-3 bs in a relatively short period of time (like 5 minutes) even with full cap simply because it doesnt have the resistance.
The question is not so much that the Chimera's tank is good or bad, the problem is that the fitting on the ship does not allow for using all of its slots and/or bonuses. Even the injector setups you listed above cannont fit all the slots on the ship without using a co-processor. The Chimera either needs the same bonuses to logistics mods the Thanatos gets (it would still be really tight on CPU) or 100 more CPU in order to be a comparable ship. At that point we can start discussing setups because the ship will have enough resources to actually fill all of its slots.
To fit this: highs: 2x DCU, 1x gangmod, capital shield transfer, capital energy transfer mids: capital booster, DG amp, DG em/kin/therm/invul, CRII lows: 4x PDS II
The Chimera would need 49.5 more cpu. This is with all releveant fitting skills at level 5. This also requires the use of the lowest cpu mods with relatively low resistance bonuses. The thanatos can fit the best armor hardeners and have OVER ONE-HUNDRED CPU left over. With comparable (best) hardeners the Chimera is 67.5 CPU short of putting all of its modules online and it is over 170 CPU behind the Thanatos.
DG hardeners use 30 CPU, electrochem injectors use 40. That means that if you drop the kin, therm and cap recharger for 3x injectors you will be 98.25 CPU short of onlining your modules. Swapping an invul for an amp would mean you need 126.25 more cpu to online your modules.
Granted you could use the lows for CPUs but both setups would require TWO tech 2 CPUs to fit the mods. Keep in mind this will still not even come close to tanking the same amount of damage, regenerating as much cap or in turn transferring as much cap/shield as a thanatos can do without using a single fitting mod.
I cannot see a way to fit the Chimera without dropping the energy transfer for an armor transfer. Even at that point the injected setup won't fit witout CPUs. ---------- Eve is balanced: Caldari have to train Rails Minmatar have to train Missiles Gallente have to train Drones Amarr have to train Caldari |
Porter Hadlend
Gallente Righteous-Indignation Imperium Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.13 13:10:00 -
[13]
I have a friend and former corpmate who fits a Chim, and I have a Thanatos, so I'm curious for the sake of comparison: What are you fitting on the Thanatos that will sustain it's tank so long?
Let me know and I'll ask him what he fits on his Chimera though, see if he has any insights that can get it's tank as high as the Thanatos one you post.
Be Chaotic Neutral |
Liam Fremen
Gallente Global Isk Network
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Posted - 2007.01.13 13:21:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Liam Fremen on 13/01/2007 13:20:23 Edited by: Liam Fremen on 13/01/2007 13:19:08 Levin, you have REAL problems with math.
1 Capital armor repair @ lvl4 give you 400 raw armor repaired per second. 1 Capital armor repair @ lvl4 with 90% overall resist (nearly impossible) gives you 760 armor per second.
This means that your famous thanatos with amazing tank repair 1520 Armor per second, this is AT SAME 2 heavy hitters bs, how come your math show 10 tankable bs?
The fitting i proposed you, repair more then 1500 shield per second sustainable for 20 minutes with 55% average resistance. (whi someone would be so crazy to use 5x injector with a cap use of 2400 every 25 sec? 3x800 = 2400 it means clicking 3 boosters give you the cap for 1 repper, 4 boosters give the "margin" for some badass that are sucking you to let you use the repper in time.
My nidhoggur with 3x capital repper repairs me for 2000 dps with some faction stuff.
As i showed you the "passive" tank is not so good as it seems, beacause the difference between having you shieldtank stopped by nosferatu and boosting continuously every 10 seconds using the boosters, is always better the 2nd !!
If you have to activate your tank in a carrier means that you enemy is suited for hurting you.
By the way think it as you prefer, overall resistance helps but are not the key for surviving a big gang.
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Levin Cavil
Omniscient Order
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Posted - 2007.01.13 13:23:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Levin Cavil on 13/01/2007 13:21:12
Originally by: Porter Hadlend I have a friend and former corpmate who fits a Chim, and I have a Thanatos, so I'm curious for the sake of comparison: What are you fitting on the Thanatos that will sustain it's tank so long?
Let me know and I'll ask him what he fits on his Chimera though, see if he has any insights that can get it's tank as high as the Thanatos one you post.
Mids: 5x cap recharger II Lows: 2x capital armor reps, exp, kin, therm x-type hards, dmg control rigs: 3x cap regen
This actually only leaves enough spare cap for 10x heavy nos, my calculations were somehow off before, I apologize and will modify my posts. I have a corpmate which flies the Thanatos and we somehow had it worked out that with his rigs he was able to be nossed 18 times and still tank. even at 10x hvy nos the Thanatos has a very impressive amount of cap. Granted the Chimera has a very similar amount of cap its booster is better at turning cap into hp so it will drain the cap faster (but also give more hp) this is completely balanced IMO and not a probelm at all.
The real issue here however is not the tanking ability of the ships, it is that the fitting resources on the Chimera are very lacking. If the Chimera had 100 or so more CPU it would be able to fit a full setup and then we could realistically talk about comparing the two ships. I see no way to fully utilize its bonuses in the way a Thanatos can. This does not mean both ships should operate the same way but it seems kinda strange to me that the supposedly superior tank of the two has to give up tanking ability to fit all of its module slots or go without 1-3 highslots and a fairly useslss setup. In fact the only truly viable setup I have been able te work out for the Chimera involved basically copying the highs on the thanatos and attempting to do exactly what it does. ---------- Eve is balanced: Caldari have to train Rails Minmatar have to train Missiles Gallente have to train Drones Amarr have to train Caldari |
Timmyu
Spontaneous Defenestration
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Posted - 2007.01.13 13:23:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Timmyu on 13/01/2007 13:19:49 If powergrid isnt stopping you, you can always fit a remote armor rep, sure youll need to be 15km from your targets, but with damping, i suspect the kind of fights youre going to have you want the people youre repping to be very close to you not to get outside your dampened range.
Just because the shipbonuses are something doesnt mean you have to follow them and fit those modules ;)
About the chimera tank I agree with you, i was originally training my alt for a chimera but ive decided the archon is much more apropriate for this task (tanking and supporting), got alot of help in this thread http://scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=2424
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Liam Fremen
Gallente Global Isk Network
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Posted - 2007.01.13 13:25:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Timmyu Edited by: Timmyu on 13/01/2007 13:19:49 If powergrid isnt stopping you, you can always fit a remote armor rep, sure youll need to be 15km from your targets, but with damping, i suspect the kind of fights youre going to have you want the people youre repping to be very close to you not to get outside your dampened range.
Just because the shipbonuses are something doesnt mean you have to follow them and fit those modules ;)
About the chimera tank I agree with you, i was originally training my alt for a chimera but ive decided the archon is much more apropriate for this task (tanking and supporting), got alot of help in this thread http://scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=2424
The bad thing about archon is that is so ugly that is near impossible to look at it.
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Deathbarrage
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Posted - 2007.01.13 13:30:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Liam Fremen Edited by: Liam Fremen on 13/01/2007 13:20:23 Edited by: Liam Fremen on 13/01/2007 13:19:08 Levin, you have REAL problems with math.
1 Capital armor repair @ lvl4 give you 400 raw armor repaired per second. 1 Capital armor repair @ lvl4 with 90% overall resist (nearly impossible) gives you 760 armor per second.
This means that your famous thanatos with amazing tank repair 1520 Armor per second, this is AT SAME 2 heavy hitters bs, how come your math show 10 tankable bs?
The fitting i proposed you, repair more then 1500 shield per second sustainable for 20 minutes with 55% average resistance. (whi someone would be so crazy to use 5x injector with a cap use of 2400 every 25 sec? 3x800 = 2400 it means clicking 3 boosters give you the cap for 1 repper, 4 boosters give the "margin" for some badass that are sucking you to let you use the repper in time.
My nidhoggur with 3x capital repper repairs me for 2000 dps with some faction stuff.
As i showed you the "passive" tank is not so good as it seems, beacause the difference between having you shieldtank stopped by nosferatu and boosting continuously every 10 seconds using the boosters, is always better the 2nd !!
If you have to activate your tank in a carrier means that you enemy is suited for hurting you.
By the way think it as you prefer, overall resistance helps but are not the key for surviving a big gang.
if 1 capital armor repairer will give you 400raw hp sec, it will give you 4000 hp/sec @ 90% resistances, learn math, how 760?
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Levin Cavil
Omniscient Order
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Posted - 2007.01.13 13:32:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Levin Cavil on 13/01/2007 13:31:30
Originally by: Timmyu Edited by: Timmyu on 13/01/2007 13:19:49 If powergrid isnt stopping you, you can always fit a remote armor rep, sure youll need to be 15km from your targets, but with damping, i suspect the kind of fights youre going to have you want the people youre repping to be very close to you not to get outside your dampened range.
Just because the shipbonuses are something doesnt mean you have to follow them and fit those modules ;)
About the chimera tank I agree with you, i was originally training my alt for a chimera but ive decided the archon is much more apropriate for this task (tanking and supporting), got alot of help in this thread http://scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=2424
I have come to the same conclusion, trade the cap transfer for an armro transfer but this is effectively just another Thanatos. The Chimera actually has a very difficult time fitting the shield and armor transfers even. A DCU must be traded out for a gangmod to save 25 CPU and the hardeners must all be DG in order to save cpu. Even at this the Chimera is very tight on CPU. The Thanatos with a 6 slot tank and 5 slots of cap regen has 100+ CPU remainaing. The Chimera with a 6 slot tank and 5 slots of cap regen has -60 CPU remaining.
Youre right just because the ship has a bonus doesnt mean I should expect to utilize all of them together. However even if I ignore the bonuses it is incredibly difficult to fit the Chimera completely. That is still no justification for the incredibly low CPU output of the Chimera. Yes there are ways around it (like trainaing another race) but that doesnt really solve the problem. For the sake of this discussion I have ignored the fact that the Thanatos can easily utilize its bonuses in a large variety of ways in addition to the other more focused setups that may fit more easily on the Chimera.
Imagine if a Tempest had 400 CPU and the solution to being completely unable to fully fit your ship was "get a Megathron." ---------- Eve is balanced: Caldari have to train Rails Minmatar have to train Missiles Gallente have to train Drones Amarr have to train Caldari |
Elmicker
Unscoped Myriad Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.13 13:41:00 -
[20]
While you're definetely right about the lack of CPU on caldari capitals (having to fit a co-proc on a phoenix ftl), the main thing you're forgetting is that if it gets to the point where your tank comes under this kind of test, you're dead anyway, carriers might be able to tank, but that's only until the blasterthrons and nosdomis catch up with you, and it only takes one frigate with one point to hold you down until they (and their likely attached fighter swarm) catch up with you. So this will likely never get changed and carriers, since they got banned from complexes, are rarely, if ever, used for combat logistics, for most people they're safe-spot campers and haulers for the expensive loot. I've only ever seen carrier logistics used for repping pos shield s back up above 50% after coming out of reinforced. But you're 100% right, the thanatos is the best carrier, it gets the best logistics bonus and a fighter damage bonus.
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Levin Cavil
Omniscient Order
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Posted - 2007.01.13 13:48:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Levin Cavil on 13/01/2007 13:46:06
Originally by: Elmicker While you're definetely right about the lack of CPU on caldari capitals (having to fit a co-proc on a phoenix ftl), the main thing you're forgetting is that if it gets to the point where your tank comes under this kind of test, you're dead anyway, carriers might be able to tank, but that's only until the blasterthrons and nosdomis catch up with you, and it only takes one frigate with one point to hold you down until they (and their likely attached fighter swarm) catch up with you. So this will likely never get changed and carriers, since they got banned from complexes, are rarely, if ever, used for combat logistics, for most people they're safe-spot campers and haulers for the expensive loot. I've only ever seen carrier logistics used for repping pos shield s back up above 50% after coming out of reinforced. But you're 100% right, the thanatos is the best carrier, it gets the best logistics bonus and a fighter damage bonus.
Im not disagreeing with you, in fact I think you are 100% correct. However, I'd like to point out that the real spirit of this thread is not that the tank on the Thanatos or Chimera are better or worse. They are different and that is good. They are both perfect as far as their tanking ability goes in fact and I do not wish any of that to change.
The real issue here is the HUGE difference in fitting capability. The Chimera has like 6-7% more cpu while the Thanatos has like 100% more PG. Add to this the fact that even with a CPU advantage the Chimera runs out of CPU long before it is capable of onlining all of its modules.
I dont feel that the setup I am trying to equip here is particularly powerful. It seems very reasonable to me and I am confused by how difficult it is to fit. I like to think that the devs fit the ships and play with them before release and my starting point with a new ship is almost always what I assume was their setup. I base that assumption on the ships bonuses and then work from there. For the life of me I cannot figure out how they managed to fit the Chimera without using CPUs or passive targeters or other mods that essentially negate whatever advantage the Chimera has over other ships. ---------- Eve is balanced: Caldari have to train Rails Minmatar have to train Missiles Gallente have to train Drones Amarr have to train Caldari |
Shirei
Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated
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Posted - 2007.01.13 14:52:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Shirei on 13/01/2007 14:48:51 If you're comparing tanks, you should probably rather compare it to the Archon where the weakness of the Chim would be even stronger.
The Thanatos doesn't really compare because it has the +20% damage on top.
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Pirated
Association of Freelance Agentrunner
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Posted - 2007.01.13 14:59:00 -
[23]
dont want to make a new thread so i will just ask here, do you have a set of crystal imps levin? if so, do they work with capital boosters?
thought they dont, but i woud be happy if they do ^^
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Levin Cavil
Omniscient Order
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Posted - 2007.01.13 15:03:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Levin Cavil on 13/01/2007 15:01:39
Originally by: Shirei Edited by: Shirei on 13/01/2007 14:48:51 If you're comparing tanks, you should probably rather compare it to the Archon where the weakness of the Chim would be even stronger.
The Thanatos doesn't really compare because it has the +20% damage on top.
I know :/
Originally by: Pirated dont want to make a new thread so i will just ask here, do you have a set of crystal imps levin? if so, do they work with capital boosters?
thought they dont, but i woud be happy if they do ^^
Implants don't work with capital mods. The only reason slaves work on dreads and carriers is that they add hps to the ships and they dont effect modules. AFAIK not even logistics mod hardwirings effect capital mods.
I would be very happy if crystals were changed to a HP boost though, 300k shield 4tw. ---------- Eve is balanced: Caldari have to train Rails Minmatar have to train Missiles Gallente have to train Drones Amarr have to train Caldari |
Pan Crastus
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Posted - 2007.01.13 15:08:00 -
[25]
/me compares with the tanking abilities of his Nidhoggur and cries bitterly ...
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Levin Cavil
Omniscient Order
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Posted - 2007.01.13 15:09:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Pan Crastus /me compares with the tanking abilities of his Nidhoggur and cries bitterly ...
At least you can fill all your slots! ---------- Eve is balanced: Caldari have to train Rails Minmatar have to train Missiles Gallente have to train Drones Amarr have to train Caldari |
Pan Crastus
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Posted - 2007.01.13 15:14:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Levin Cavil
Originally by: Pan Crastus /me compares with the tanking abilities of his Nidhoggur and cries bitterly ...
At least you can fill all your slots!
No, not as you understand it. The Nidhoggur can't fit a proper shield tank and both capital armor and shield transfer at the same time ...
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Levin Cavil
Omniscient Order
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Posted - 2007.01.13 16:04:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Pan Crastus
Originally by: Levin Cavil
Originally by: Pan Crastus /me compares with the tanking abilities of his Nidhoggur and cries bitterly ...
At least you can fill all your slots!
No, not as you understand it. The Nidhoggur can't fit a proper shield tank and both capital armor and shield transfer at the same time ...
I feel your pain. ---------- Eve is balanced: Caldari have to train Rails Minmatar have to train Missiles Gallente have to train Drones Amarr have to train Caldari |
Porter Hadlend
Gallente Righteous-Indignation Imperium Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.13 16:52:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Levin Cavil Edited by: Levin Cavil on 13/01/2007 13:21:12
Originally by: Porter Hadlend I have a friend and former corpmate who fits a Chim, and I have a Thanatos, so I'm curious for the sake of comparison: What are you fitting on the Thanatos that will sustain it's tank so long?
Let me know and I'll ask him what he fits on his Chimera though, see if he has any insights that can get it's tank as high as the Thanatos one you post.
Mids: 5x cap recharger II Lows: 2x capital armor reps, exp, kin, therm x-type hards, dmg control rigs: 3x cap regen
This actually only leaves enough spare cap for 10x heavy nos, my calculations were somehow off before, I apologize and will modify my posts. I have a corpmate which flies the Thanatos and we somehow had it worked out that with his rigs he was able to be nossed 18 times and still tank. even at 10x hvy nos the Thanatos has a very impressive amount of cap. Granted the Chimera has a very similar amount of cap its booster is better at turning cap into hp so it will drain the cap faster (but also give more hp) this is completely balanced IMO and not a probelm at all.
The real issue here however is not the tanking ability of the ships, it is that the fitting resources on the Chimera are very lacking. If the Chimera had 100 or so more CPU it would be able to fit a full setup and then we could realistically talk about comparing the two ships. I see no way to fully utilize its bonuses in the way a Thanatos can. This does not mean both ships should operate the same way but it seems kinda strange to me that the supposedly superior tank of the two has to give up tanking ability to fit all of its module slots or go without 1-3 highslots and a fairly useslss setup. In fact the only truly viable setup I have been able te work out for the Chimera involved basically copying the highs on the thanatos and attempting to do exactly what it does.
That is a hefty tank, even without the ability to tank 18 nossing ships...
I haven't run that setup on mine yet.. Is it viable in combat? Would seem like you'd want some sensor boosters which would reduce your ability to tank somewhat..
However as I said, I'll contact my Chimera friend and see what he fits.. it's been a bit since we last spoke, but who knows, maybe he has unraveled some mysterious secret. I will admit it looks awfully short in the tank department which is sad because I assumed it should have a wicked shield tank.
Be Chaotic Neutral |
Levin Cavil
Omniscient Order
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Posted - 2007.01.13 17:55:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Levin Cavil on 13/01/2007 17:53:11 Dropping one cap recharger for a censor booster doesnt hurt your tank terribly bad and a Chimera could do the same. The only real reason I see to fit a sensor booster is if you plan to be dampened and if that is the case then one sensor booster wont save you (3 wont even save you) so its better to just make sure the damp ships are dead which is what your gangmates are for. The sensor booster is certainly nice and it is likely a better module than the 5th cap recharger.
I would like to stress however that I am so far happy with the tanking capabilities of the ship, my only real complaint with the Chimera is its severly limited fitting capabilites. With better hardeners the Chimera tank would be excellent rather than just good. Unfortunately you need DG hardeners and DB diags/recharger to save enough CPU to fill the slots, this leaves about 3-5 CPU spare. The problem comes after you fit the great tank and have no CPU left to fit the modues that actually make the carrier worth using.
The setup I currently have is as follows highs: armor transfer, shield transfer, 3x DCU mids: capital booster, DG amp, DG em/kin/therm/invul, DB cap recharger lows: 4x DB PDS
I think it's actually possible to fit this with just 3 DB PDS. I did not want to drop the 4th Diag because the more diags you have the better so the 4th one makes a big impact, something like 81k cap to 85k cap and 1100 sec regen to 1000 second regen. 4k cap and 100 sec regen is worth a lot more than fitting a DCU or a gang mod IMO. I may very well swap the armor rep for an energy transfer in the future depending on what we plan to do but that will require leaving one of the highs open.
It is possible to cram a setup onto the chimera but its not possible to fully utilize all of the ships bonuses simultaneously like the Thanatos can do. I am not sure about the Archon or Nidhoggur's ability to fit thier intended logistics mods while also maintaining some kind of reasonable tank. Maybe an armor tank would make the Nidhoggur fit better? I really dont know as I have not looked at the ship closely and am really just thinking out loud. ---------- Eve is balanced: Caldari have to train Rails Minmatar have to train Missiles Gallente have to train Drones Amarr have to train Caldari |
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