CCP thinks that the reason why hisec exists is to allow newbies to get a foothold on EVE and to meet acquaitances to move into nullsec, which is supposed to be the real game and the reason why people would suscribe to EVE.

The point is that, as EVE is unique in its genre, as time goes by it attracts people who don't give a damn of nullsec, rather enjoy being in hisec. And as this kind of people is easily more abundant than those who feel like playing bully-or-be-bullied, the natural tendency of EVE is to grow more through hisec than through nullsec.

Which in turns begs the questions: what if people played EVE in ways CCP doesn't expects them to play? What if players expected EVE to be more hisec and less nullsec? How do we tell?

What is EVE, a black horse with white stripes (nullsec > hisec), or a white horse with black stripes (hisec > nullsec)?

The idea that one must be ">" than the other is outmoded, divisive thinking. It leads to such arrant nonsense as people supposing that what is good for hi-sec is necessarily bad for null, and vice-versa, when in reality, improving hi-sec (and by "improving" I mean making those activities more fun, not increasing the ISK that can be ground per wallet flash) is nothing but good for null, and vice versa.

Both should be valid playstyles, able to cater to a variety of playstyles that span the spectrum of risk:reward from greater to lesser. Lo-sec too.

The idea that one must be ">" than the other is outmoded, divisive thinking. It leads to such arrant nonsense as people supposing that what is good for hi-sec is necessarily bad for null, and vice-versa, when in reality, improving hi-sec (and by "improving" I mean making those activities more fun, not increasing the ISK that can be ground per wallet flash) is nothing but good for null, and vice versa.

Both should be valid playstyles, able to cater to a variety of playstyles that span the spectrum of risk:reward from greater to lesser. Lo-sec too.

The idea that one must be ">" than the other is outmoded, divisive thinking. It leads to such arrant nonsense as people supposing that what is good for hi-sec is necessarily bad for null, and vice-versa, when in reality, improving hi-sec (and by "improving" I mean making those activities more fun, not increasing the ISK that can be ground per wallet flash) is nothing but good for null, and vice versa.

Both should be valid playstyles, able to cater to a variety of playstyles that span the spectrum of risk:reward from greater to lesser. Lo-sec too.

took the chance to watch the EVE wormhole... such beautiful sight, it's a pity that go seeing it it's such a deadly sport in TQ...

Sometimes, it feels like this is a hard concept for people to grasp.

The idea that one must be ">" than the other is outmoded, divisive thinking. It leads to such arrant nonsense as people supposing that what is good for hi-sec is necessarily bad for null, and vice-versa, when in reality, improving hi-sec (and by "improving" I mean making those activities more fun, not increasing the ISK that can be ground per wallet flash) is nothing but good for null, and vice versa.

Both should be valid playstyles, able to cater to a variety of playstyles that span the spectrum of risk:reward from greater to lesser. Lo-sec too.

Do high-sec carebears feel CCP considers them an important part of EVE?

As someone playing this game for just over four years, I'd have to say no. However, now that CCP have stepped up their efforts to re-focus on the game, we'll see where that focus takes us. Currently my subs end in four days, I've mostly enjoyed my time here. I've achieved quite a bit and had some fun doing it. There are far too many broken things and sucking chest wounds in the game that have been ignored the entire time I've been here. Most of them impact everyone, regardless of play-style, and many of them just happen to negatively impact my style of play/profession.

Crucible is a step in the right direction and the re-focusing effort is a welcome change but I have simply run out of patience. Regardless what other players think, it is CCP's focus that matters to me. Risk vs reward gets thrown around quite a bit but a lot of changes in recent years seem to be more carrot vs stick, in my opinion. If I like the results of this re-focusing, of fixes and re-balancing in the future, I'll consider re-subbing.

The idea that one must be ">" than the other is outmoded, divisive thinking. It leads to such arrant nonsense as people supposing that what is good for hi-sec is necessarily bad for null, and vice-versa, when in reality, improving hi-sec (and by "improving" I mean making those activities more fun, not increasing the ISK that can be ground per wallet flash) is nothing but good for null, and vice versa.

Both should be valid playstyles, able to cater to a variety of playstyles that span the spectrum of risk:reward from greater to lesser. Lo-sec too.

Whilst I agree with you Malcanis, if you're looking at criteria, then you can have some areas better than others.

stupid quick examples from my own experiences:

overall feeling "safe" to do stuff (usually just passing through)
hisec & soverign null > w-space/NPC null > low

fights without worrying about stupid NPC consequences
null/w-space > empire

fights without "surprise!" (or at least limited surprises)
w-space > k-space

not having to deal with too many politics
hisec > low/w-space/null

overall balance of the above:
w-space/null > hisec > low


Now, it's a very quick list and built from my own experiences. However, the overall "is better than" list is broken. It really should read that w-space/null is on top, followed by low, followed by hi. BUT that is not to say that hi is worthless and shouldn't continue to be balanced.

IMHO, hisec is "too safe" for people, and really does them a dis-service in that they don't really get involved with EVE. Yes, there are and always will be the types who don't want to go lower than 0.5, or that don't want to go higher than 0.4 and that's totally cool. The best fix to this would likely be blurring 0.9 to 0.1 better -- so that there aren't any real "steps" anymore

Currently, this is a rough list of how the system sec works:
1.0 -0.9 --> no rats, nothing really useful
0.8 --> rats introduced
0.7 - 0.5 --> progressively harder rats
0.4 --> no concord, welcome to supercaps online.
0.3 - 0.1 --> progressively harder NPCs, moongoo extraction.
0.0 --> Nice system, we'll take it.


What if the lines were a little blurrier
1.0 --> no changes
0.9 --> rats introduced
0.8 - 0.7 --> no changes
0.6 - 0.5 --> remove CONCORD, replace with navies (navies can be avoided, system rules otherwise unchanged)
0.4 --> no navy, welcome to supercaps online
0.3 - 0.1 --> no changes
0.0 --> no changes
in 0.9 - 0.0, reduce the respawn timers on rocks (no more of this once/day stuff).

Now, slow down CONCORD in 0.9 - 0.7 systems, essentially to what happens in 0.5 or 0.6 now (20-30 sec or so). Have the navies work in waves, with the waves showing up in the same timelines as CONCORD (20-30 sec)

first wave -- normal navy ships (IIRC, no scrams)
second wave -- scrams brought in
third wave -- enough DPS to concordokken you if you're still alive.

With that then, you can choose to sit around through the first wave and GTFO just as the second is coming in (so about a minute). If you run from the navy, you have 15 minutes to bounce around the system before the gates/stations let you pass. Now, since you're running from the Navy, they won't bother with the "waves" as you're running around. You'll have 20 sec or less to re-enter warp after you've landed at a celestial or safespot before the CONCORDOKKEN fleet arrives. For those of you thinking "hey, i'll just safe up and cloak" -- the navy will cheat in this regard (i.e. see right through your cloak).


Yes, this means gankers can probably kill a few hulks and get away free and clear. This ALSO means that the hulks can have their own defence fleet who can gank you first (allowing the miners to GTFO), rather than sit and watch their mates DIAF.

Whilst I agree with you Malcanis, if you're looking at criteria, then you can have some areas better than others.

stupid quick examples from my own experiences:

overall feeling "safe" to do stuff (usually just passing through)
hisec & soverign null > w-space/NPC null > low

fights without worrying about stupid NPC consequences
null/w-space > empire

fights without "surprise!" (or at least limited surprises)
w-space > k-space

not having to deal with too many politics
hisec > low/w-space/null

overall balance of the above:
w-space/null > hisec > low


Now, it's a very quick list and built from my own experiences. However, the overall "is better than" list is broken. It really should read that w-space/null is on top, followed by low, followed by hi. BUT that is not to say that hi is worthless and shouldn't continue to be balanced.

IMHO, hisec is "too safe" for people, and really does them a dis-service in that they don't really get involved with EVE. Yes, there are and always will be the types who don't want to go lower than 0.5, or that don't want to go higher than 0.4 and that's totally cool. The best fix to this would likely be blurring 0.9 to 0.1 better -- so that there aren't any real "steps" anymore

Currently, this is a rough list of how the system sec works:
1.0 -0.9 --> no rats, nothing really useful
0.8 --> rats introduced
0.7 - 0.5 --> progressively harder rats
0.4 --> no concord, welcome to supercaps online.
0.3 - 0.1 --> progressively harder NPCs, moongoo extraction.
0.0 --> Nice system, we'll take it.


What if the lines were a little blurrier
1.0 --> no changes
0.9 --> rats introduced
0.8 - 0.7 --> no changes
0.6 - 0.5 --> remove CONCORD, replace with navies (navies can be avoided, system rules otherwise unchanged)
0.4 --> no navy, welcome to supercaps online
0.3 - 0.1 --> no changes
0.0 --> no changes
in 0.9 - 0.0, reduce the respawn timers on rocks (no more of this once/day stuff).

Now, slow down CONCORD in 0.9 - 0.7 systems, essentially to what happens in 0.5 or 0.6 now (20-30 sec or so). Have the navies work in waves, with the waves showing up in the same timelines as CONCORD (20-30 sec)

first wave -- normal navy ships (IIRC, no scrams)
second wave -- scrams brought in
third wave -- enough DPS to concordokken you if you're still alive.

With that then, you can choose to sit around through the first wave and GTFO just as the second is coming in (so about a minute). If you run from the navy, you have 15 minutes to bounce around the system before the gates/stations let you pass. Now, since you're running from the Navy, they won't bother with the "waves" as you're running around. You'll have 20 sec or less to re-enter warp after you've landed at a celestial or safespot before the CONCORDOKKEN fleet arrives. For those of you thinking "hey, i'll just safe up and cloak" -- the navy will cheat in this regard (i.e. see right through your cloak).


Yes, this means gankers can probably kill a few hulks and get away free and clear. This ALSO means that the hulks can have their own defence fleet who can gank you first (allowing the miners to GTFO), rather than sit and watch their mates DIAF.

10-20sec response time is fine for 0.9 - 0.7 systems methinks.

IMADBRO.

Just what we needed, a carebear hisec ganker asking for easier ganking.

Hisec is not broken, so it needs no "fixes", thanks. It needs new content.

Just in case you think Hi-sec is a carebear paradise look at your map. Using the function that shows you how many ships have meet the fate in combat. Then look dead center almost. See that really big orange blob. Yeah thats Jita, Usaully a 1,000 ships or more per day get blown to bits. No take a look null, might need a micoscope for this, all the Null Sec, and Low sec systems combined don't match up to Jita in terms of pew pew. Count in the rest of High Sec, and well null sec looks like the plac to be if you're a carebear. There hasn't been a Null Sec war worth any mention in years. Biggest thing that has happened out is that Atlas just simply vanished. If you are a true carebear Null is where you want to be. Why because they tend to keep their industry guys nested deep inside side Null where nothing really happens unless crap hit the fan by the truckload. By then the carebears have hauled ass back to high sec or the nearest blue.

Fine rhetoric; the boring truth of the matter though, is that nullsec, with ~11% of the population, sees about 3.5x as many PvP ship kills as hi-sec with ~80% of the population. However, hi-sec sees about the same number of PvE losses as null sees PvP losses.

We can therefore make the naive calculation that a character in nullsec is approximately 25-30x more likely to lose a ship to another player than a character in hi-sec. Obviously various factors complicate such a simplistic equation, but the sheer size of the difference in base risk does, I think, at least partly justify calling hi-sec a "carebear wonderland" in comparison.

See here for the data: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=40902&find=unread

Fine rhetoric; the boring truth of the matter though, is that nullsec, with ~11% of the population, sees about 3.5x as many PvP ship kills as hi-sec with ~80% of the population. However, hi-sec sees about the same number of PvE losses as null sees PvP losses.

We can therefore make the naive calculation that a character in nullsec is approximately 25-30x more likely to lose a ship to another player than a character in hi-sec. Obviously various factors complicate such a simplistic equation, but the sheer size of the difference in base risk does, I think, at least partly justify calling hi-sec a "carebear wonderland" in comparison.

See here for the data: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=40902&find=unread

True story. I've lost one ship in null on a roam, one in low sec on a gate. All my other losses were i high sec. GAnking has always been a threat. Add my other toon and I have one more loss in low sc and LOTS in high sec. Ganking and griefing mostly.

Does CCP care? No.

Whilst I agree with you Malcanis, if you're looking at criteria, then you can have some areas better than others.

stupid quick examples from my own experiences:

overall feeling "safe" to do stuff (usually just passing through)
hisec & soverign null > w-space/NPC null > low

fights without worrying about stupid NPC consequences
null/w-space > empire

fights without "surprise!" (or at least limited surprises)
w-space > k-space

not having to deal with too many politics
hisec > low/w-space/null

overall balance of the above:
w-space/null > hisec > low


Now, it's a very quick list and built from my own experiences. However, the overall "is better than" list is broken. It really should read that w-space/null is on top, followed by low, followed by hi. BUT that is not to say that hi is worthless and shouldn't continue to be balanced.

IMHO, hisec is "too safe" for people, and really does them a dis-service in that they don't really get involved with EVE. Yes, there are and always will be the types who don't want to go lower than 0.5, or that don't want to go higher than 0.4 and that's totally cool. The best fix to this would likely be blurring 0.9 to 0.1 better -- so that there aren't any real "steps" anymore

Currently, this is a rough list of how the system sec works:
1.0 -0.9 --> no rats, nothing really useful
0.8 --> rats introduced
0.7 - 0.5 --> progressively harder rats
0.4 --> no concord, welcome to supercaps online.
0.3 - 0.1 --> progressively harder NPCs, moongoo extraction.
0.0 --> Nice system, we'll take it.


What if the lines were a little blurrier
1.0 --> no changes
0.9 --> rats introduced
0.8 - 0.7 --> no changes
0.6 - 0.5 --> remove CONCORD, replace with navies (navies can be avoided, system rules otherwise unchanged)
0.4 --> no navy, welcome to supercaps online
0.3 - 0.1 --> no changes
0.0 --> no changes
in 0.9 - 0.0, reduce the respawn timers on rocks (no more of this once/day stuff).

Now, slow down CONCORD in 0.9 - 0.7 systems, essentially to what happens in 0.5 or 0.6 now (20-30 sec or so). Have the navies work in waves, with the waves showing up in the same timelines as CONCORD (20-30 sec)

first wave -- normal navy ships (IIRC, no scrams)
second wave -- scrams brought in
third wave -- enough DPS to concordokken you if you're still alive.

With that then, you can choose to sit around through the first wave and GTFO just as the second is coming in (so about a minute). If you run from the navy, you have 15 minutes to bounce around the system before the gates/stations let you pass. Now, since you're running from the Navy, they won't bother with the "waves" as you're running around. You'll have 20 sec or less to re-enter warp after you've landed at a celestial or safespot before the CONCORDOKKEN fleet arrives. For those of you thinking "hey, i'll just safe up and cloak" -- the navy will cheat in this regard (i.e. see right through your cloak).


Yes, this means gankers can probably kill a few hulks and get away free and clear. This ALSO means that the hulks can have their own defence fleet who can gank you first (allowing the miners to GTFO), rather than sit and watch their mates DIAF.

"Carebares" in Eve Online is a minority. Everyone burns out staying in High Sec sooner or later.