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Marsha Mallow
2714
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 23:59:08 -
[241] - Quote
N00B-SAIB0T wrote:I don't understand something. When CCP first announced this, there were pages and pages of raging in that thread related to the dev blog. What I'm seeing now is a complete reversal of opinion. What changed? Did people just step away for a bit, think about it, and see it in a more positive light? Yes, it did need some time to sink in. The people who supported it immediately tend to be involved in discussions about new player retention, subs and some of the more radical lines of thought floating about. A lot of those who went in immediately with a hardcore 'NO' have a habit of doing that with any proposed change that might affect their view of the fundamentals of the game, or their personal interests. But when they try convert that into an argument to apply to new players or the rest of the community it falls down because it's really a personal opinion which is impossible to substantiate as better for the game. Plus the P2W defence isn't working when it's evident people are already attempting it and failing. Retention is ridiculously low at less than 10% and the PCU has visibly fallen - and players want these things fixing, even if it means change.
There were also some solid write ups in favour on en24 and TMC 1,2,3 (Arrendis absolutely nailed it imo) which explained the proposal and pointed out what the positive effects might be. See the comments section on all of those for more - tbh they were better than the devblog feedback thread which was mostly hilarious hairpulling. Attempts to start a 'NO' campaign failed on reddit because it's a young, normally open minded segment of the playerbase - actually it was quite funny watching people spectacularly misjudge the crowd then fall flat on their face trying to rile them. And this thread here - attempting to start a riot rather than just have a discussion was also a bit juvenile - so ye, we're not buying it. We can think for ourselves and reflect on whether we like it, and whether we think it'll be good going forward - and tbh most people are committed to improving the game for new players. Once people calm down, all they can really say is that they're uneasy about certain aspects (such as new players feeling they have to pay a lot at the start) or a uncertainty over the numbers. Topics like this are useful because some people are just uneasy and need more info rather than vehemently opposed.
N00B-SAIB0T wrote:Doddy wrote:Delt0r Garsk wrote:Current suggested pricing puts 50k SP for a 50M character at more than 500M. And the 500k SP need to come from somewhere. My guess is the price will settle around 1B.
So yea its unlimited, in that saving less than *one* day of training will cost 1B. you really think people are going to pay that? Oh and where are all these skill points coming from? They have to come from real accounts. Where does this suggested pricing come from btw? Possibly from the current Character Bazaar? Total cost of ISK divided by number of skill points by using a few sample characters. The character bazaar isn't an ideal area to get calculations for the value of SP as it stands. Focused alts can go for as much as a bill ISK per 1mill SP - although we're talking 20b SP max here and these are highly specialised alts with expensive skillbooks injected (think Titan sitters/starters). There's a major fluctuations from 20-80m SP in terms of ISK per SP - most sell at a loss if you take into account current plex prices - although some rarer types (leadership alts) can command very high prices. But there's an assumption that a lot of those accounts were subbed, rather than plexed, so the SP to ISK conversion rate is quite variable. Prices are set by demand/rarity based upon certain factors - specialisation, name, ingame history - rather than a pure calculation. There's a jump in prices from 80-120m SP again, and another at 120m SP plus - at 150m SP+ those really are vanity purchases so they can sell for ridiculous amounts. But still nowhere near to 1b per 1m SP.
Actually the mid-high SP characters currently sold on the bazaar may be worth more if this change is implemented, but it depends upon how many people liquidate their SP then try sell it in an early market. They might actually crash it at first - so some may choose to wait out an early market to get more ISK. Again, hard to predict how that'll work out if people start regularly farming their own alts for sellable SP.
I was feeling part of the scenery ~
I walked right out of the machinery
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6859
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 02:48:38 -
[242] - Quote
Doddy wrote:You are working in completely circular arguments. How can you on the one hand say new players don't use the bazaar, it is hidden away on forums peopled by bitter vets and then in the same breath argue that moving sp aquisition to the market wont benefit new players?
Why would they not be getting donations? new players are already given skills, isk, plex, ships, equipment, implants, why not TSPs? In the case of the big blocks these are entirely self funding in any case thanks to the buddy invite system, same goes for ayone invited by a friend already in game, a friend who will often be pointing people to the bazarr anyway. nothing will have changed except it will be in the open. Oh yeah.
The problem is the ones most likely to be handed the equivalent of billions of isk worth of skillpoints (in addition to just billions of isk) are ones in large groups, which means they are evil.
I will probably start trying to get this into the hands of newbies as the first bunch of core skills are no fun to train and you know we love the Celestis.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25975
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 04:45:07 -
[243] - Quote
I love Arrendis, but neither her article nor Materall's or Gorski's for that matter really looks at the issue in depth.
I've posted the list of abuses. I'll do it again.
1. SP mules making passive income on countless accounts 2. People blowing away the max 2700 SP per hour limit. Now there is no upper limit so characters could gain as much SP as they want per hour, because sky's the limit for an IRL rich player 3. Large alliances will be able to afford SP packets for their rookie line members. Small alliance won't be able to. 4. Instant gratification for Alliance Tournament participation. Cash in SPs and enlist as a contender (maybe Elise considers to be a good thing). Can you see how this will be abused when combined with #3? 5. People un-biomassing old characters to cash in on SPs. 6. EVE quitters subscribing for 1 month to cash in on SPs. 7. RMT RMT RMT RMT RMT 8. Awoxers, corp thieves, spies recycled with only a 20% hit in SPs 9. It will perpetuate the myth that SPs make you win EVE to people who will fork out money to chase this myth. This will be one of the biggest exploits that rookies will face coming into EVE, and when they realize SPs don't make them good players they will quit.
Everyone arguing for it is doing it so they can consolidate accounts and characters. I have not seen a single argument for the benefit of the longevity of the game.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
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Marsha Mallow
2714
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 07:22:07 -
[244] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:I love Arrendis, but neither her article nor Materall's or Gorski's for that matter really looks at the issue in depth.
Early opinion pieces are useful to stop a hysterical reaction from the playerbase. People have been incredibly squawly the last year or so and those of us who were round for Incarna are starting to recognise how bad a player riot on that scale might be if unleashed again. But I take your point and a more detailed analysis probably would be a decent step going forward. It might be better if that comes from CCP if they're following various discussions and have some metrics in the background they can refer to.
Just to answer some of your points:
1. Anyone who tries to farm SP will have to either pay a sub or Plex their accounts. Just as character farmers do now. Talking from experience here, I have 100+ accounts at the moment although most are unsubbed because my PC is fried. This type of farming is an ISK conversion process and it's tied to Plex prices quite closely. If Plex prices are higher than you can actually sell an alt for you will make a loss. Character prices on the bazaar lag behind Plex in real time by a few months and have to be deliberately manipulated upwards to compensate. Also, anyone attempting an SP farm will be in direct competition with every other player in the game - so if it's massively profitable, everyone will jump on it and crash the market. 2. The proposed numbers are heavily slanted in favour of new players. Rich older players attempting to boost the SP on a character with more than 80m SP will have to inject 10x the Skill Packets that a character under 5m SP will. That's a significant tax. 3. Large alliances can afford SRP for their line members now where small alliances can't. I'd class that as more of a PTW feature than SP. Even then large alliances would struggle to subsidise thousands of players with more than a few thousand additional SP per month. It's not as though large blocs can afford to pay their members now to sub their accounts so I wouldn't overestimate their monthly income streams. 4. Winning an AT match has nothing to do with skillpoints, sorry. I'm really not seeing how this topic even ties in, and honestly there aren't enough alliances signing upto the AT anyway. Not because of lack of SP, but because it requires massive commitment to practice matches which some groups reject if it impedes their activities on TQ for several weeks. 5. They could do this anyway to sell them on the bazaar or return to play. 6. Not sure why EvE quitters would return to game to cash in on SPs? If they were so determined to RMT they could easily sell their characters through gold sites. 7. RMT's a concern in general - but as stated before, if all player characters have some value if sold illegally, what difference do skill packets make to the equation? I'm assuming you mean people will sell the SP then try directly RMT the ISK out. That's really a risk for the security team to assess and I'm not sure any of us are qualified to speculate on what the impact might be. 8. These are separate concerns. Players in highsec have the ability to turn friendly fire off on their corp if awoxing is a concern. Elsewhere there's always a risk, but normally they get one shot and then get kicked, and player groups can replace ships lost without a huge fuss. Lowsec and nullsec groups run background checks on characters to try stop dodgy alts getting in - but tbf these checks only go so far because of the excessive use of alts and the ability to create multiple identities anyway. If anyone engages in this then recycles their alt to evade consequences, they'd be taking a massive hit in terms of cost over time that might make the practice less economical. Any recruiter with a brain will spot newly reformed alts so if anything recycling repeatedly would become a major flag and might impede peoples ability to join player groups. 9. I think the SP scaling works to counter that somewhat. 0-5m really is where the pain spot is for newer players. Educating players about the limits in the value of SP needs to be considered anyway as there's already a problem with the system.
Sibyyl wrote:Everyone arguing for it is doing it so they can consolidate accounts and characters. I have not seen a single argument for the benefit of the longevity of the game. I'm not. I've run my accounts for so long I'd be reluctant to part with even the ones I don't use. Since I have 4 with 150m SP+ and 4 with 100 plus a few more mains with less gutting them would mean losing massive amounts of SP in tax to reconfigure them into new alts. I can't speak for anyone else, but I suspect it's not just me with an attachment to characters I've had for a long time, so it's hard to judge exactly how many would cannibalise high SP alts. Certainly they might do with lower SP alts and move it across to their mains, and if that means they can cut their number of accounts I can't see a problem? We've been encouraged to run silly numbers of accounts and for people reliant on Plex, under conditions where Plexes are increasing in value sharply there's a risk that players who are dependent upon them will simply quit altogether.
Since I bought alts early on because of frustration with the early months and the half dozen people I got to play the game never even subbed because 'why pay to train for 6 months before you can even play' there is very much an argument that it'll benefit newer players. Sorry, but I've made it abundantly clear that newer players are likely to benefit the most from this, so you're either completely misreading my remarks or assuming a selfish agenda that just isn't there. Actually in a lot of ways I see this as a form of FTP to correct problems with the sub model but haven't seen anyone else follow through on that idea.
I was feeling part of the scenery ~
I walked right out of the machinery
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Fillyblunts
State Protectorate Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 07:54:28 -
[245] - Quote
LMAO. Seems to me that you are one of the minority that hates change because its change. |
Lysdahl
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 12:36:30 -
[246] - Quote
Someone is butthurt about not being able to make billions upon billions on the char bazaar :) I like the changes |
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
937
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 21:53:45 -
[247] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote: I love Arrendis, but neither her article nor Materall's or Gorski's for that matter really looks at the issue in depth.
I've posted the list of abuses. I'll do it again.
1. SP mules making passive income on countless accounts 2. People blowing away the max 2700 SP per hour limit. Now there is no upper limit so characters could gain as much SP as they want per hour, because sky's the limit for an IRL rich player 3. Large alliances will be able to afford SP packets for their rookie line members. Small alliance won't be able to. 4. Instant gratification for Alliance Tournament participation. Cash in SPs and enlist as a contender (maybe Elise considers to be a good thing). Can you see how this will be abused when combined with #3? 5. People un-biomassing old characters to cash in on SPs. 6. EVE quitters subscribing for 1 month to cash in on SPs. 7. RMT RMT RMT RMT RMT 8. Awoxers, corp thieves, spies recycled with only a 20% hit in SPs 9. It will perpetuate the myth that SPs make you win EVE to people who will fork out money to chase this myth. This will be one of the biggest exploits that rookies will face coming into EVE, and when they realize SPs don't make them good players they will quit.
Everyone arguing for it is doing it so they can consolidate accounts and characters. I have not seen a single argument for the benefit of the longevity of the game.
Some pretty gigantic leaps you are taking.
1) How is there passive income? To train you need to plex, so you could just sell the plex in the first place and be better off than having to spend irl money on making TSPs.
2) That can only happen if CCP fails to put any caps in, and if people trully wanted to spend tens of thousands of dollars on very little gain (around $4k for 20m sp once you get to 80mil, who is going to do that?), and assuming they couldn't just buy a char in the bazarr with for much less in the first place.
3) Size of alliance hardly relates to wealth in eve. Even if it did it hardly matters, the large alliance has more rookies to share the TSPs out amongst, its all equal. All those noobs benefitting and you think its a bad thing?
4) Like this doesn't already happen with the bazarr....? It will be much more expensive for people to do it with TSPs. Pretty much the only impact I see is regaining lost T3 cruiser skill between games. Who cares?
5) Why is that a problem? Maybe the isk they make will keep them in the game a while longer?
6) Why is that a problem? Some money put into the game and maybe a few retained players, sounds like a positive reaosn to me....
7) Um different to now how?
8) Does that really matter? They just sold chars on before anyway so there is really no difference, except some unsuspecting person doesn't get an awoxer char from the bazarr.
9) How? |
Marsha Mallow
2721
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 22:06:55 -
[248] - Quote
Lysdahl wrote:Someone is butthurt about not being able to make billions upon billions on the char bazaar :) I like the changes I'm not, and the comments I'm seeing from other character traders in public look positive towards this too. The rest are keeping their mouths shut which suggests they're either rage posting in opposition from alts or whipping out the calculators and rubbing their grubby little paws together in glee. If this goes through players sat on lots of alts for trading purposes might cash out well. Or lose massively. They wouldn't be in this market if they didn't enjoy risky types of speculation - it's always been fairly volatile - so they're probably enjoying themselves either way.
I was feeling part of the scenery ~
I walked right out of the machinery
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9569
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 22:43:18 -
[249] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote:Lysdahl wrote:Someone is butthurt about not being able to make billions upon billions on the char bazaar :) I like the changes I'm not, and the comments I'm seeing from other character traders in public look positive towards this too. The rest are keeping their mouths shut which suggests they're either rage posting in opposition from alts or whipping out the calculators and rubbing their grubby little paws together in glee. If this goes through players sat on lots of alts for trading purposes might cash out well. Or lose massively. They wouldn't be in this market if they didn't enjoy risky types of speculation - it's always been fairly volatile - so they're probably enjoying themselves either way. Last I looked, there were maybe three or four WTBs in the first five pages of the Character Bazaar.
It seems like everyone is dumping alts right now for whatever reasons. Not sure exactly the implications of this, but I will say it's probably a good time for any new players reading this to grab some decent characters cheap. Probably a lot cheaper than making a comparable one after the SP packs come into the game.
More on topic, though. I've been known to dabble in the bazaar and have no problem whatsoever with the proposed changes. I don't think many character traders do who took the time to think things through. There's a good chance we'll see our profits actually increase.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Evasive Shadow Assassin
Liberty Storm
3
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 23:10:47 -
[250] - Quote
When Sumone On EvE Says "Cry Harder" Or "Rage Much"
Simply Quote This In To Prove A Point.
Signs that your trolling is succesful and your target is infact, very angry and trys to turn it on you.
*Your victim screaming in all-caps at you. *Personal attacks (Calling you a ******, idiot, etc). *Being an Internet Tough Guy. *Making a crude remark, before quickly logging off before you can retort. *Threats against your ingame corp etc. *Mercs war decking you non stop.
For you freelancer
Take a chill pill
Get off your pc
Go outside
Oh
And Grow Up :) |
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Marsha Mallow
2721
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 23:38:56 -
[251] - Quote
Evasive Shadow Assassin wrote:When Sumone On EvE Says "Cry Harder" Or "Rage Much"
Simply There's an even simpler solution. Laugh in their faces and carry on with what you were doing - regardless of what they just said. Wink at them too. Or sing. Sometimes they join in. Which is horrible tbf.
I was feeling part of the scenery ~
I walked right out of the machinery
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
26037
|
Posted - 2015.11.07 07:07:11 -
[252] - Quote
Marsha, you know I love you right? I think you're responding only to the surface of the arguments. I've written in much more depth about each, but let me talk about my points in response to your counterarguments.
1. Why do I refer to SP mules? No, SP mules under the new system is not the same as grooming characters for the Bazaar. Why? Because all of us have secondary and tertiary alts on our accounts that need limited SP (gankers, traders, mission runners, you name it). Grooming a character means you don't get to utilize that alt (I can give you the reasons for it, but I suspect you can figure out what these reasons are).
SP mules on the other hand can continue to train SP which you can transfer out while you fully utilize these mules for the limited purposes you've built them for.
Just as the comparison to Character Bazaar is specious, so is this. SP mules aren't Groomed Character Bazaar alts. They're entirely different, because SPs come with no reputation, burden, or set configuration. The characters thus generating this burden-less SP are not restricted by what you can do with them while they train.
2. "Heavily slanted to new players" wasn't the point. An IRL rich player gets an SP advantage that literally has no ceiling. They can pour as much money as they want, to gain as much SP as they want. This is not a reality that exists in the current system. The current system has high SP characters available, sure, but the availability is not under the control of the player who wants the SP. The Bazaar is a product of activity by multiple players.
In the new system, the only entity that controls how many SP a player gains is their wallet. Nothing that another player does has any effect on that determination.
Pay to win? You betcha.
3. If you thinK SRP is the backbone of the stagnation of the game, why would you support another mechanic that strengths SRP? I don't get it.
4. Please talk to anyone who trains for AT and ask them why they'd do something like training Rigging skills to V. Tight fits are the name of the game. SP and AT are tied together, sorry.
5. People can't unbiomass alts and then "voltron" all their SP into their main. Again, this sort of blind comparison to Character Bazaar is apples to oranges.
6. Why would EVE players return to cash in on SP? Probably because plenty of them have said they'll do exactly this on reddit. Accounts and money are under considerable RMT lockdown. It's not to say it doesn't happen in significant quantities, but the current PLEX to ISK conversion makes it less likely today, and accounts being passed to another player are easy to track using various network detection methods.
7. Alliances don't give away characters to their newbies en masse. Alliances will give away SP anywhere and everywhere. If you can expound on how exactly RMT for this mechanism can be detected and stopped, I'm all ears. I certainly can't think of a way, without effort from CCP that they have no current ability to staff.
8. You're arguing for the Awox switch now? The rest of your point is essentially arguing that awoxing, corp theft, spying, and so on is no problem at all. It seems a bit like a disingenuous argument. Do you really believe that all the players who choose to do this stuff are ineffective and their gameplay has no real impact on anyone?
9. Having hung out on GD for as long as we have, how well do you think EVE players grasp that SP doesn't automatically mean winning?
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
26037
|
Posted - 2015.11.07 07:13:05 -
[253] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote:Since I have 4 with 150m SP+ and 4 with 100 plus a few more mains
I'm officially scared of you.
Quote:with less gutting them would mean losing massive amounts of SP in tax to reconfigure them into new alts. I can't speak for anyone else, but I suspect it's not just me with an attachment to characters I've had for a long time, so it's hard to judge exactly how many would cannibalise high SP alts. If you're like any other parent, you will have favorites amongst all your kids. If you're not ultra-rich, then lesser accounts with more overall SP is better. It's sort of a no-brainer, isn't it?
Quote:Certainly they might do with lower SP alts and move it across to their mains, and if that means they can cut their number of accounts I can't see a problem? Sure, I'll concede this point especially after reading Quant's recent update. If lesser accounts translate to more activity then that's a great thing for EVE.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
26037
|
Posted - 2015.11.07 07:21:01 -
[254] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Some pretty gigantic leaps you are taking.
I'd love to post a detailed response. Perhaps you can tell I'm not shy about the quantity of words in my responses.
However, I haven't taken any leaps for my assertions at all. I've described exactly where I've started and how I've arrived at my conclusions in the two posts linked in my sig.
It's completely your choice if you read them or not, of course.
You would also notice that in that same thread, I did not initially take the contra position just so I could understand each and every argument against this change. It helped refine the argument which arrives at the conclusions I've posted in this thread for the sake of brevity.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
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Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
456
|
Posted - 2015.11.07 07:45:44 -
[255] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Perhaps you can tell I'm not shy about the quantity of words in my responses.
However, I haven't taken any leaps for my assertions at all. I've described exactly where I've started and how I've arrived at my conclusions in the two posts linked in my sig.
Sibyyl you made it into my personal top ten of people I do not dislike.
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
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Tanthos
Minmatar Death Squad
93
|
Posted - 2015.11.07 10:18:57 -
[256] - Quote
N00B-SAIB0T wrote:
Personally I like it. I have a character that's kind of all over the place, skill-wise. It was my first character so I wasted a lot of SP's experimenting with a lot of different activities that I regret now. I'm thinking I might just harvest that character to nothing and then biomass it.
I'm the same, and that's an excellent suggestion. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6859
|
Posted - 2015.11.09 18:50:26 -
[257] - Quote
So, did we stop exploding the character bazaar? I hear it has a fragile ecosystem that should no be disturbed
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Dagnar
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2015.11.09 19:00:30 -
[258] - Quote
When is this going live? I want to buy some skill point packs asap. |
N00B-SAIB0T
MK Financial
21
|
Posted - 2015.11.09 22:51:57 -
[259] - Quote
Tanthos wrote:N00B-SAIB0T wrote:
Personally I like it. I have a character that's kind of all over the place, skill-wise. It was my first character so I wasted a lot of SP's experimenting with a lot of different activities that I regret now. I'm thinking I might just harvest that character to nothing and then biomass it.
I'm the same, and that's an excellent suggestion.
It's a great idea. It beats being low balled on the Character Bazaar any day.
Dagnar wrote:When is this going live? I want to buy some skill point packs asap.
Can't come soon enough. I have a character with 41 million SPs waiting to be harvested to nothing. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32704
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 04:37:49 -
[260] - Quote
http://i.imgur.com/JzaOqm4.png
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
26047
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 06:13:26 -
[261] - Quote
Yeah we get it, Rain. You've reached a point of apathy where you've left behind the spirit of discussion you used to engage in.
What's really odd is the amount of energy you put in to expressing how little you care.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
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Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
693
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 07:36:25 -
[262] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote:Evasive Shadow Assassin wrote:When Sumone On EvE Says "Cry Harder" Or "Rage Much"
Simply There's an even simpler solution. Laugh in their faces and carry on with what you were doing - regardless of what they just said. Wink at them too. Or sing. Sometimes they join in. Which is horrible tbf.
Couldnt have been worse than that time 200 people tried to sing happy birthday over our TS. Lets just say it wasnt exactly TOTP material.
Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin
you're welcome
|
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
187
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 09:34:17 -
[263] - Quote
*literally* can't wait for all the 'CCP ... do something about price of TSPS' threads in general discussion |
Frederick Reisen
XCOM Institute
0
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 13:44:20 -
[264] - Quote
You know what, here is the thing, started playing 3 months ago almost to the day two accounts. I don't need the packets later I need them now. I am training battleship skills on one account and procurer on the other. It will take me at least a couple more months before I can even expect to survive in nulsec given I have no experience. Who in their right mind would train for 5 months and grind out farming ore in hisec, boring. I tried it, its not worth my time mining in hisec. Everyday I log on just to look at my skills trade window, boring. This is precisely what has hindered people from joining the game. I am retired so I have the time and the patience to wait. I am a convertee from playing wow since release. For most people its just not worth the wait. So limit the packets for the newbies to at least get them to start playing within 3 months, period. Leave everyone else OUT!! Have a good day |
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
187
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 13:59:49 -
[265] - Quote
Frederick Reisen wrote:You know what, here is the thing, started playing 3 months ago almost to the day two accounts. I don't need the packets later I need them now. I am training battleship skills on one account and procurer on the other. I agree that new guys could use faster SP, just think this way will exclude many and is a poor way of achieving that.
Quote:It will take me at least a couple more months before I can even expect to survive in nulsec given I have no experience. This is simply untrue. Check Karmafleet, Brave Newbies, Pandemic Horde.
Quote:Everyday I log on just to look at my skills trade window, boring. This is precisely what has hindered people from joining the game. No it hasn't, the game's been going since 2003, that's a long to time to survive in the MMO market if you can't attract new subs.
Quote: I am retired so I have the time and the patience to wait. I am a convertee from playing wow since release. For most people its just not worth the wait. So limit the packets for the newbies to at least get them to start playing within 3 months, period. Leave everyone else OUT!! Have a good day Again I have to stress the only thing stopping you playing the game before 3 months training is you. As I said, I agree that faster access to ship/modules would be good for new player retention due to the perception new guys often have about the "skill gap" but is is an incorrect perception, you can join any number of newbie friendly corps in all areas of the game. I appreciate that perception often trumps reality when attracting new players so I'm fine with increasing training speed, losing attributes, anything that won't cost extra R/L money. I am not ok with replacing that perception with a new one that "you have to pay CCP for skill packets to progress in the game"... that would be very damaging. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32708
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Posted - 2015.11.10 14:03:49 -
[266] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote: Yeah we get it, Rain. You've reached a point of apathy where you've left behind the spirit of discussion you used to engage in.
What's really odd is the amount of energy you put in to expressing how little you care.
Sib, I love you and we should be married.
It was just a joke that I thought deserved to be made, image and all. My personal attitude toward all this SP stuff is neutral. I've suffered the skill trains and if this new system works out for newer players, I'm okay with that.
The SP consumption mechanic is hardly motivating to me, either. It's just too inefficient. But I can imagine there are players who will need cyno alts in a hurry, or have other low SP requirements that aren't as lossy.
The characters in the bazaar still have their market for having typically higher sums of SP. If you need a cyno alt, or want Covops V in a hurry, you use skill point inject pack things. If you need a capable triage carrier pilot in a hurry, you head to the bazaar.
Love you. XOXO
Poasted from my ipod nano
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
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Bobb Bobbington
The Cult of the Rare Pepes
123
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Posted - 2015.11.10 14:08:46 -
[267] - Quote
Frederick Reisen wrote:You know what, here is the thing, started playing 3 months ago almost to the day two accounts. I don't need the packets later I need them now. I am training battleship skills on one account and procurer on the other. It will take me at least a couple more months before I can even expect to survive in nulsec given I have no experience. Who in their right mind would train for 5 months and grind out farming ore in hisec, boring. I tried it, its not worth my time mining in hisec. Everyday I log on just to look at my skills trade window, boring. This is precisely what has hindered people from joining the game. I am retired so I have the time and the patience to wait. I am a convertee from playing wow since release. For most people its just not worth the wait. So limit the packets for the newbies to at least get them to start playing within 3 months, period. Leave everyone else OUT!! Have a good day
You have to realize, bigger is NOT better. It can be, but usually not, especially if you're new. If you train straight for battleships you'll work to get enough isk for one, wait for a few months get it optimal, and then lose it the moment you take it out because you've never actually run missons or anomalies before.
My advice, train for a cruiser and a scanning frigate, don't bother getting them "optimal" (basically train most skills to level 4 and ignore getting level 5s yet), scan down DeD 3s (you might have to *gasp* do some research here), and run them. You'll get some isk and have some fun playing the Eve RNG lottery. After that, maybe, just maybe you can start stepping up into larger ships if you really really really feel the need to.
Eve is about getting kicked in the dirt, spat on, and then shoved in a pit and having to claw your way out to victory. It's whole niche is being a hard, complicated game for those who like things like that. If you can't stand waiting a few weeks for something, you'll probably despise the rest of the game too.
Newbies can play the game fairly easily within a week, as long as you don't train for something really far off. They can be useful within a day in PvP as cheap tackle for fleets, they can run hideaways and refugees in destroyers within a few days. It is supposed to be hard to get on your feet when you first start out. |
Natural420
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
6
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Posted - 2015.11.10 15:04:33 -
[268] - Quote
This new Character skill trading idea sounds great. Now I can dissolve my alts and boost my main ! |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
26053
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Posted - 2015.11.10 17:13:46 -
[269] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:The SP consumption mechanic is hardly motivating to me, either. It's just too inefficient. But I can imagine there are players who will need cyno alts in a hurry, or have other low SP requirements that aren't as lossy.
I love you too.
What you do with this feature isn't the concern. The concern is how this is a yet another tool, like SRP, to disincentivize smaller groups. The Blood Harvest event is a good indicator of what players are willing to do for SP. Unlike that event though, SP trading allows any large alliance to provide that SP faucet without any danger of PVP or external threats.
Providing a mechanic that is vulnerable to Malcanis's Law right out of the gate goes against the design philosophy CCP would like us to believe they have been pursuing lately.
One-sided perfectly skilled fleet comps give us gudfites how?
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32709
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Posted - 2015.11.11 07:56:40 -
[270] - Quote
Sib you should know I've personally run perfectly skilled and max boosted gangs for quite some time. I don't see anything wrong with it, and I think it's just good preparation.
I'm not sure our expectations of the skill booster mechanic are the same. I wholeheartedly expect it will replace learning implants, moving a buy-and-forget implant system to an active, high-maintenance system. Annoying, but understandable, for the increased requirement of playing the game, which I don't do much of.
I don't think this is detrimental to a particular size group. Players are free to buy (with real money) or play harder to gain SP just like any other player.
As for me, even with healthy SRP and, I dunno, 1.25 Billion SP spread across ten mains, I still regularly purchase six-packs of PLEX because I can't be assed. This point seems to convolute the distinction between SP packs being good or bad for small or large groups, but I think what it really means is there's no distinction to be made.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
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