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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
13351
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Posted - 2015.10.07 16:51:55 -
[1] - Quote
Quote:All four Tactical Destroyers have been out for a little while now and we're of course planning on making more adjustments to the class over the coming months. To help with this task we intend to put together a focus group on T3Ds that will help provide feedback (especially subjective feedback) on the current state of these ships and on potential future changes.
We will use this forum thread to accept applications from players who wish to participate in the focus group The decision on which players are invited to the focus group will be made by CCP This focus group will not receive any secret information, and therefore will not be required to sign any NDAs We plan on making the logs of the focus group chat public for everyone to view. Everyone can see what is being discussed, but only focus group members and CCP devs can actually talk When selecting focus group members, we will be looking for people who can demonstrate the ability to communicate effectively and provide reasoned and calm feedback. We also want the members to have significant experience flying the Tactical Destroyers and to have strong knowledge of EVE gameplay, fittings and balance The focus group will take place in a Slack team, so members will need to be able to use Slack
We are hoping that using a focus group of this type will allow us to quickly and easily gather feedback from players who have a strong breadth and depth of experience with the ships. If this group goes well, similar formats might be used for other focus groups on other topics.
Focus group members will not be forced to attend any meetings or to pass any minimum activity thresholds. People in any time zone are welcome. Huge thanks to everyone who applied to the focus group in the previous thread. We have selected 16 members to start the group. We may add more members over time as needed.
I'll use this thread to list the players who have been invited to the focus group, to post links to the chatlogs, and to allow the general playerbase to discuss and provide feedback on what they read in those logs.
Game Designer | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie
http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
13351
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Posted - 2015.10.07 16:52:00 -
[2] - Quote
The current list of players invited to the focus group are as follows:
- Ascentior
- Chessur
- Destoya
- Fintarue
- Forsot
- Gorski Car
- Hoodie Mafia
- JOhnDrees
- Johnny Twelvebore
- Namamai
- Sard Caid
- Scipio Artelius
- Selto Black
- SFM Hobb3s
- Suitonia
- Syenna Celeste
In addition, Mike Azariah will be in the channel as an observer to see what works and what doesn't for the benefit of future focus groups.
I'll be sending evemails to each of you shortly asking for what emails you prefer your slack invite to be sent to.
Game Designer | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie
http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
13351
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Posted - 2015.10.07 16:52:05 -
[3] - Quote
Reserved
Game Designer | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie
http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
13351
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Posted - 2015.10.07 16:52:11 -
[4] - Quote
Important information from the focus group so far:
I'll start us off with one tidbit that we've already decided on (so that it doesn't derail other discussion): We plan on reducing Tactical Destroyer payouts to T2 levels in the December release.
Game Designer | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie
http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/
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Selto Black
Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters Ocularis Inferno
6
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Posted - 2015.10.07 17:42:31 -
[5] - Quote
Well, time to the lamb amongst lions. |
Stalence
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
54
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Posted - 2015.10.07 17:48:42 -
[6] - Quote
I donGÇÖt think T3Ds are in an altogether broken place but there are certainly a few things that could be done to make them more vulnerable and to restore the Assault Frigate to a viable ship class instead of always preferring a T3D. The two biggest ideas I hope you can bring up and discuss at the focus meetings are the following:
New Mode Bonuses Take Effect at the End of Cool-Down Timer instead of Immediately Please discuss changing when a modeGÇÖs bonuses take effect to the end of a mode-transition cycle instead of immediately after hitting the button. Doing so would eliminate the insta-warp trick on gates (essentially the nullified interdiction of low-sec). It also really forces players to make a better pre-meditated choice on transitioning modes which I think was the original goal behind the design (e.g. I canGÇÖt just use propulsion mode to dive bomb in for tackle and then instantly turtle up in defensive mode once I land a scram). In that situation they almost get the best of both worlds instead of having to make a conscious trade-off between the two sets of bonuses. I personally think having the new mode bonus take effect at the end of the timer instead of immediately at the beginning would help quite bit but perhaps longer GÇ£cool down timersGÇ¥ could aide this as well.
Exile T3Ds from Small Faction Warfare Complexes This is commonly supported amongst pilots in the Faction Warfare community and also would help the Assault Frigate reclaim some of its niche.
Thanks!
Member of #tweetfleet @stalence //
Combat FRAPs on YouTube
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1863
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Posted - 2015.10.07 18:05:06 -
[7] - Quote
I know a bunch of those names! Hope this experiment goes well.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1206
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Posted - 2015.10.07 18:16:44 -
[8] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Important information from the focus group so far:
I'll start us off with one tidbit that we've already decided on (so that it doesn't derail other discussion): We plan on reducing Tactical Destroyer insurance payouts to T2 levels (30% of current payout) in the December release.
As mentioned in the latest CSM summit minutes, we are also planning on removing Tactical Destroyers from Small FW complexes.
that kind of suggests you're going too barely touch them, when we all know they need as big a nerf bat as T3 cruisers do.
T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely.
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name, remove drone assist, nerf sentries, -3 highslots for droneboats
Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
14641
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Posted - 2015.10.07 18:42:17 -
[9] - Quote
I freely admit that this has nothing to do with the thread, but there are so many stickies right now that the forum only has room for ten player made posts on the entire front page.
These need to be conglomerated somewhere, with a sticky that links to any active ones, rather than keeping them all on the front page. It's just too much.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2121
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Posted - 2015.10.07 18:57:31 -
[10] - Quote
I suggest that every time someone uses the word 'cancer' or variant thereof, we fine them 500m isk and donate the proceeds to plex for good.
Mike can keep score. |
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Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2763
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Posted - 2015.10.07 19:03:11 -
[11] - Quote
Wait, how high was T3D insurance already at? |
Kasia en Tilavine
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
46
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Posted - 2015.10.07 19:03:30 -
[12] - Quote
afkalt wrote:I suggest that every time someone uses the word 'cancer' or variant thereof, we fine them 500m isk and donate the proceeds to plex for good.
Mike can keep score.
You just want to empty Suitonia's pockets.
As for the thread, looking forward to the logs. And to see if this works. |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
159
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Posted - 2015.10.07 19:13:00 -
[13] - Quote
The main reason T3 destroyers are so good in my view is they are so ISK efficient in terms of insurance.
In terms of the actual ships themselves I'd say they are in a pretty good place. Assault frigates really need looking at though as since T3s there is really no need to use them.
Assault frigates need buffs and then that change alone should push T3s into a much better place in terms of the meta.
Looking forward to the results of these discussions though. It is good to see CCP trying to involve the community.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
7636
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Posted - 2015.10.07 19:32:13 -
[14] - Quote
The Jackdaw. :( Caldari lub, please. :(
(totally unbiased. totally.)
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2316
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Posted - 2015.10.07 19:52:38 -
[15] - Quote
afkalt wrote:I suggest that every time someone uses the word 'cancer' or variant thereof, we fine them 500m isk and donate the proceeds to plex for good.
Mike can keep score.
I want a score of that even if there is no ISK fines. |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1480
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Posted - 2015.10.07 20:01:53 -
[16] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Important information from the focus group so far: As mentioned in the latest CSM summit minutes, we are also planning on removing Tactical Destroyers from Small FW complexes.
Excellent news :)
The Tears Must Flow
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Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation
504
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Posted - 2015.10.07 20:24:24 -
[17] - Quote
I think the biggest problem with Tactical destroyer is that nothing can kill them other than other Tactical destroyers. They utterly obliterate anything small than them and larger ships cannot hit something moving that fast. |
JOhnDrees
Deep Axion Honorable Third Party
22
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Posted - 2015.10.07 22:01:36 -
[18] - Quote
Ultra excited to be included in this! I promise I'm going to contribute my absolute best to this thing. Wooot!!! |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
40467
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Posted - 2015.10.07 22:22:30 -
[19] - Quote
Gorski has a good article published on Crossing Zebras:
http://crossingzebras.com/refining-tactical-destroyers/
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Bienator II
madmen of the skies
3409
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Posted - 2015.10.08 00:06:47 -
[20] - Quote
i enjoyed fighting t3ds. thinking about ways how to bring the target into a mode he does not want to be was fairly challenging. I am a bit sad that they will be removed from small plexes but i also see why its the easier solution compared with the attempt to balance them (which actually costs devtime).
i don't quite see how t3ds are in any way related to AFs, because before t3ds we flew interdictors if we wanted something solid and also can enter small plexes.
how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
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Wrecktum Yourday
Viziam Amarr Empire
8
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Posted - 2015.10.08 00:23:27 -
[21] - Quote
While we're at it can we get pirate frigs out of novice plexes. |
Xavier Azabu
Tarantism
21
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Posted - 2015.10.08 00:42:01 -
[22] - Quote
Sounds like a nice focus group. I would have enjoyed applying for it but I am too busy traveling at the moment.
I've read a lot about T3s and enjoyed Gorski's CZ article. While I usually agree with the author, I don't completely buy in to the idea that they are overpowered this time. I would like to defend the T3s at their current stage and I hope that some others will agree with me. I hope that these topics are raised, however.
1. Cost. I'd like to see each T3 destroyer cost about 50-100% more than an Interdictor. The reason for this is that T3 cruisers are more expensive than their T2 counterparts when fully fitted with subsystems, etc.,
2. Instant warp glitch due to mode-switching. When done right, T3s can align about as fast as a shuttle. This needs to be taken care of somehow.
Regarding the individual ships... Please don't nerf the T3 destroyer class into the ground. They should not be turned into glass cannons or specialized junk that sits around in hangars.
3. The Jackdaw and Hecate shouldn't be changed (aside from 1 and 2). Either of them are in a great place. They have vulnerabilities, handle like their respective races' ships, and are strong enough that they aren't a joke.
The main issue that people raise regarding T3s is the idea that the Confessor and Svipul are killing frigate gameplay. I'd like to defend both ships. Any changes made to either should be light - otherwise you're going to end up with more high priced garbage sitting around.
4. Please don't nerf the Svipul's Sharpshooter mode. A variety of ships are used for instalock gatecamps. Live with it. HTFU. The Svipul loses a lot of its tank in order to be fit for instalocking.
5. Please don't make the Svipul predictable. The best thing about the Svipul is its versatility. Yes it can be heavily tanked. But it typically uses two mids to do so. That leaves one mid for a point or scram - and one for a prop mod. The days of untouchable uber-tanked 10mn ab 280mm T2 artillery Svipuls ended with the last nerf to power grid and speed. Much of the Svipul's strength lies in the easily projected alpha of artillery fits or the huge buffer/double ASB tank of autocannon fits. But an increase of cost should justify its power. What is the point of the Svipul if the ubiquitous Thrasher will do more DPS? What is the point of the Svipul if a Sabre has more tank?
6. If you're going to do anything to the Svipul, make small stat changes. You could reduce the damage per T3 Destroyer level skill to 7.5% per level. This would slightly reduce the enormous alpha and the amount of damage that is projected in the Svipul's huge falloff. You could lightly reduce the shield EHP. But don't do all of this.
7. If you have absolutely have to nerf it, make a light change to the Confessor's damage output. The main gripe that people have with the Confessor is that it moves too fast with low sig while projecting too much dps. But these 10mn kiting fits are very high skill. You won't project well without constant mode-switching. You won't be able to handle cruisers with long-range weapons without propulsion mode. You can't have that much of a tank if you are using 10mn ab. I argue that messing around with these bonuses will turn the Confessor into a big Punisher. It should continue to be like a mini Omen Navy Issue, with less damage. Drop the damage per T3 Destroyer level skill to 7.5% per level, if you have to.
8. I would argue that the real change needed here is a speed buff to Assault Frigates. T1 frigates can catch up to T3s and mob them. Interceptors should have trouble with T3s because T3s should be a hard counter to them. Interdictors should not have the full strength of T3s as their main job is bubbling and catching those who are trying to escape. Assault Frigates should not do as much damage as T3s but should have similar speed to a Svipul or 10mn AB Confessor. |
Bloodmyst Ranwar
Leviathan Rising Affirmative.
144
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Posted - 2015.10.08 01:13:53 -
[23] - Quote
Xavier Azabu wrote:Sounds like a nice focus group. I would have enjoyed applying for it but I am too busy traveling at the moment.
I've read a lot about T3s and enjoyed Gorski's CZ article. While I usually agree with the author, I don't completely buy in to the idea that they are overpowered this time. I would like to defend the T3s at their current stage and I hope that some others will agree with me. I hope that these topics are raised, however.
1. Cost. I'd like to see each T3 destroyer cost about 50-100% more than an Interdictor. The reason for this is that T3 cruisers are more expensive than their T2 counterparts when fully fitted with subsystems, etc., This cost change shouldn't be made if you decide to nerf-bat them. Which you shouldn't.
2. Instant warp glitch due to mode-switching. When done right, T3s can align about as fast as a shuttle. This needs to be taken care of somehow.
Regarding the individual ships... Please don't nerf the T3 destroyer class into the ground. They should not be turned into glass cannons or specialized junk that sits around in hangars.
3. The Jackdaw and Hecate shouldn't be changed (aside from 1 and 2). Either of them are in a great place. They have vulnerabilities, handle like their respective races' ships, and are strong enough that they aren't a joke.
The main issue that people raise regarding T3s is the idea that the Confessor and Svipul are killing frigate gameplay. I'd like to defend both ships. Any changes made to either should be light - otherwise you're going to end up with more high priced garbage sitting around.
4. Please don't nerf the Svipul's Sharpshooter mode. A variety of ships are used for instalock gatecamps. Live with it. HTFU. The Svipul loses a lot of its tank in order to be fit for instalocking.
5. Please don't make the Svipul predictable. The best thing about the Svipul is its versatility. Yes it can be heavily tanked. But it typically uses two mids to do so. That leaves one mid for a point or scram - and one for a prop mod. The days of untouchable uber-tanked 10mn ab 280mm T2 artillery Svipuls ended with the last nerf to power grid and speed. Much of the Svipul's strength lies in the easily projected alpha of artillery fits or the huge buffer/double ASB tank of autocannon fits. But an increase of cost should justify its power. What is the point of the Svipul if the ubiquitous Thrasher will do more DPS? What is the point of the Svipul if a Sabre has more tank?
6. If you're going to do anything to the Svipul, make small stat changes. You could reduce the damage per T3 Destroyer level skill to 7.5% per level. This would slightly reduce the enormous alpha and the amount of damage that is projected in the Svipul's huge falloff. You could lightly reduce the shield EHP. But don't do all of this.
7. If you have absolutely have to nerf it, make a light change to the Confessor's damage output. The main gripe that people have with the Confessor is that it moves too fast with low sig while projecting too much dps. But these 10mn kiting fits are very high skill. You won't project well without constant mode-switching. You won't be able to handle cruisers with long-range weapons without propulsion mode. You can't have that much of a tank if you are using 10mn ab. I argue that messing around with these bonuses will turn the Confessor into a big Punisher. It should continue to be like a mini Omen Navy Issue, with less damage. Drop the damage per T3 Destroyer level skill to 7.5% per level, if you have to.
8. I would argue that the real change needed here is a speed buff to Assault Frigates. T1 frigates can catch up to T3s and mob them. Interceptors should have trouble with T3s because T3s should be a hard counter to them. Interdictors should not have the full strength of T3s as their main job is bubbling and catching those who are trying to escape. Assault Frigates should not do as much damage as T3s but should have similar speed to a Svipul or 10mn AB Confessor.
I would have to disagree with the price point of T3D's.. I think they are priced reasonably and the insurance for them is at a good point. The one and only reason I am of the opinion is because Eve is has already progressed to a point where everyone is so risk adverse it prevents a lot of GF's. By keeping the current price point and insurance, it helps alleviate this. This can only be a good thing.
Some small tweaks and nerfs do need to happen. But overall, I think the Hecate, Jackdaw, Confessor are quiet balanced atm. The Svipul would need to be looked over and could do with some nerfs. But please do not jump the gun nerfing these ships to a point where no one will use them (as we have seen in the past).
They are great ships with quiet a large engagement profile. This isn't a bad thing and it should be kept that way (I may be biased here as I am a solo pilot). It needs to be up to the enemy to force the T3D pilot into going into a specific mode in order to be able to deal with him. This isn't actually hard.
Also, to blatantly state T3D's are killing frigate gameplay right now really isn't fair. They are simply just the FOtM, Frigates can still take on T3D's. so can standard destroyers, so can cruisers. As stated before, they are fine atm, it's really only the Svipul that needs to be looked over... give it more time before jumping the gun and nerfing other T3D's.
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Xavier Azabu
Tarantism
21
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Posted - 2015.10.08 01:58:51 -
[24] - Quote
Bloodmyst Ranwar wrote:I would have to disagree with the price point of T3D's.. I think they are priced reasonably and the insurance for them is at a good point. The one and only reason I am of the opinion is because Eve is has already progressed to a point where everyone is so risk adverse it prevents a lot of GF's. By keeping the current price point and insurance, it helps alleviate this. This can only be a good thing.
Some small tweaks and nerfs do need to happen. But overall, I think the Hecate, Jackdaw, Confessor are quiet balanced atm. The Svipul would need to be looked over and could do with some nerfs. But please do not jump the gun nerfing these ships to a point where no one will use them (as we have seen in the past).
They are great ships with quiet a large engagement profile. This isn't a bad thing and it should be kept that way (I may be biased here as I am a solo pilot). It needs to be up to the enemy to force the T3D pilot into going into a specific mode in order to be able to deal with him. This isn't actually hard.
Also, to blatantly state T3D's are killing frigate gameplay right now really isn't fair. They are simply just the FOtM, Frigates can still take on T3D's. so can standard destroyers, so can cruisers. As stated before, they are fine atm, it's really only the Svipul that needs to be looked over... give it more time before jumping the gun and nerfing other T3D's.
A T1 cruiser can counter T3s pretty easily as long as it isn't fit with larger weapons. A single web means the end of a Svipul or Confessor. I agree with you and I hope that their abilities are mostly not tweaked at the moment. |
MonkeyBusiness Thiesant
randomly named no tax corp v2
49
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Posted - 2015.10.08 02:04:24 -
[25] - Quote
Have to say, I'd never noticed the insurance, and it won't make the slightest bit of difference to me - or I suspect, pretty much anyone else who uses them. |
Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders
526
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Posted - 2015.10.08 02:12:30 -
[26] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Important information from the focus group so far:
I'll start us off with one tidbit that we've already decided on (so that it doesn't derail other discussion): We plan on reducing Tactical Destroyer insurance payouts to T2 levels (30% of current payout) in the December release.
As mentioned in the latest CSM summit minutes, we are also planning on removing Tactical Destroyers from Small FW complexes.
Love it. |
Dmitry Kuvora
WAR TEAM U.C.F. Alliance
11
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Posted - 2015.10.08 02:28:28 -
[27] - Quote
the biggest problem with t3d is off grid links, they are too cheap and powerfull when have sig and rep bonuses
something like that(cost just 150mil): https://zkillboard.com/kill/49289380/
under 2 webs, can tank cerberus and rapier, both with faction EM rapid missiles
i think: 1) svipul and confessor should be forced to fit mwd 2) t3d hull price around 80mil 3) and maybe some signature increase
sry for english |
elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
873
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Posted - 2015.10.08 03:11:43 -
[28] - Quote
Dmitry Kuvora wrote:the biggest problem with t3d is off grid links, they are too cheap and powerfull when have sig and rep bonuses something like that(cost just 150mil): https://zkillboard.com/kill/49289380/ under 2 webs, can tank cerberus and rapier, both with faction EM rapid missiles i think: 1) svipul and confessor should be forced to fit mwd 2) t3d hull price around 80mil 3) and maybe some signature increase 4) fix insta warp trick sry for english
Sorry for angrish, in order to do that you need to spend consideral amount of isk in blue modules that cost as much as the ship itself.
Explain in your narrow point of view why a ship should under-perfom with such modules on? Why do we even have blue modules in the game? Can I haz your stuff?
Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
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elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
873
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Posted - 2015.10.08 03:37:00 -
[29] - Quote
It is very good to see that the list of players involved in changes are good pvpers, people you can talk to and know their stuff very good.
Kudos to each an everyone of you!
In my opinion the Confessor should be a tad "lighter" whit mass. 2 million is too much. The selling point of the Jackdaw was very low mass only to kick her in the behind with the even lighter Hecate.
Why on earth should the Amarr destroyer be twice as heavy as the other ones? It should be very clear that an oversized propulsion mod will gimp your mobility alot. Inertia or not you move like a brick on the artic ice.
I can agree with a mass value of 1.5 million.
Speaking of the Jackdaw, I think there doesn't need to be much of a change here. I liked the tanky iteration better but I am okay that you listened to my concern that the Jackdaw would be a one-trick pony.
Now you have all 4 option open to your liking.
I have to admit that I only flew the Hecate four or five times on SiSi and even though I have the book trained to the magic 5 I don't find the Hecate tanky enough for the things I do.
And I am free to admit that I really don't like the current new sexy is to hull tank everything to make a mockery of active tank in the process.
Active tanking is as much an art as fitting a ship is - I am an artist.
Which brings me to my next point - Inderdictors.
With the destroyer hype I thought I might as well train those too since I haven't look at tech one and two destroyers much - I am more of a cruiser girl. My apologies.
I see a missed opportunity on Inderdictors as in more tanky destroyers with a taad more firepower than the tech ones. They could be competitors to face our tactical destroyer but I found that they are not strong enough to compete with them so you need to ship up one class.
At the cruiser level you have a wide variety of ships to choose from to kill the tactical destroyers and none of them have to be tech 2.
Even one Sentinel can make 75% of all tactical destroyers have a really bad day, an Arbitrator even worse.
Chessur and Sutonia, please bare in mind that low and nullsec are not the only places in EVE. In all effect wormholes you have to live with contrainst and weaknesses amonst the buffs such effects can provide.
Don't make them unviable in Sleeper space.
Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1788
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Posted - 2015.10.08 04:06:40 -
[30] - Quote
The major changes that I would like to see are an increase in price and a decrease in the effectiveness of oversized afterburners. I don't use oversized afterburners, as a matter of principle mostly, but most of the complaints about the Svipul and Confessor could be solved by that.
I think the Hecate is a thing of beauty and should pretty much be left alone.
I really hope this focus group works out to improve the game significantly.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
20
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Posted - 2015.10.08 04:42:22 -
[31] - Quote
Well I just started training confessor, at least I'll get a couple months out of it before they get the nerf hammer. |
Davis TetrisKing
The Vendunari End of Life
126
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Posted - 2015.10.08 05:51:07 -
[32] - Quote
I think fixing the insta-warp trick should be a big priority.
I really like it when I'm flying them, but it feels weird that T3Ds are harder to catch than normal frigates.
An option to do it is to have the speed bonus only apply to prop mods on the svipul and confessor (like the hecate). This way the base speed is unaffected with props off and speed mode just gets a bonus to align time. It stops the mode switching trick from working unless you have your prop mod on, but having a prop mod on increases align time, so it should even out.
Personally it feels fair enough on the jackdaw because the ship is designed to be slow but agile. A fair trade. In speed mode their agility is so good they pretty much don't need to bother with the mod switching trick anyway. |
Yngvar ayShorn
Einheit X-6
492
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 06:45:11 -
[33] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Important information from the focus group so far:
As mentioned in the latest CSM summit minutes, we are also planning on removing Tactical Destroyers from Small FW complexes.
+1
Good News for FW. Thank you.
30 Tage EVE testen! -->> Klick mich <<--
|
Suitonia
True Solo
656
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 06:47:38 -
[34] - Quote
Dmitry Kuvora wrote:the biggest problem with t3d is off grid links
Off Grid Links break a lot of ships, It just so happens that for a ship with no other resistance modules fitted, links from a CS provide an 82%~ Boost to Active Tank amounts, which is obviously crazy, and the Skirmish links are really broken too in a mathematical sense they provide better than 2 HG implant sets and upgrade all tackle mods to near-best in slot faction for free.
Contributer to Eve is Easy:
https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos
Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
|
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
1773
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 07:04:14 -
[35] - Quote
There is a lot of talk about the power levels of TD3, where the problem may lie partly in the fact that external factors may be pushing them over the edge into marginally overpowered, depending on the ship.
A reason is that Links/implants, remote sebos, drugs and boosts are adding to the capabilities of already powerful ships. This must make them incredibly hard to balance.
Would a reduction of the effect of links/etc as appropriate (negative bonus) help this situation?
For example 50% reduction of speed and agility gains from external (non ship) sources in propulsion mode. Repeat for appropriate mode and links/etc
I will not suggest any numbers whether 5% or up to 100% thats for the discussion group to decide, if they like the idea.
I am not suggesting it as an all in one fix, but It might be helpful?
Of course it might be technically unfeasable, but if not?
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
|
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1791
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 08:49:20 -
[36] - Quote
Davis TetrisKing wrote:I think fixing the insta-warp trick should be a big priority.
This is definitely a good idea.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
|
W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
371
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 09:46:15 -
[37] - Quote
as log as they keep their instawarp im fine, **** instalocking gatecamps |
motie one
Secret Passage
48
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 10:50:05 -
[38] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Davis TetrisKing wrote:I think fixing the insta-warp trick should be a big priority. This is definitely a good idea.
Totally disagree.
If frigates can escape gate camps, why should a tactical destroyer, in propulsion mode not be able to follow?
Gate camps are not entitled to be provided easy kills.
If players use the right ship, fitted well, and flown well, they ARE entitled to pass them.
And If this refers to TD3 in combat? Put a point on them! Then there is no insta-warp anything. |
Luscius Uta
170
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 11:04:22 -
[39] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Important information from the focus group so far:
I'll start us off with one tidbit that we've already decided on (so that it doesn't derail other discussion): We plan on reducing Tactical Destroyer insurance payouts to T2 levels (30% of current payout) in the December release.
As mentioned in the latest CSM summit minutes, we are also planning on removing Tactical Destroyers from Small FW complexes.
Supported. Would you also consider buffing Assault Frigates to make them less inferior to T3Ds? Maybe add them some unique role, like +1 or +2 bonus to warp disruption strength, so they can catch stabbed plexers more easily.
Another thing that I object to T3Ds is that they are super-fast to train into. Even adding few more short skills as a prerequisite - like Mechanics V, Navigation V and Gunnery V (or Missile Launcher Operation V for Jackdaw) - would be a step forward.
Drifters have arrived - The End is nigh!
|
Fuerchterlich
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 11:24:17 -
[40] - Quote
Suitonia wrote:Dmitry Kuvora wrote:the biggest problem with t3d is off grid links Off Grid Links break a lot of ships, It just so happens that for a ship with no other resistance modules fitted, links from a CS provide an 82%~ Boost to Active Tank amounts, which is obviously crazy, and the Skirmish links are really broken too in a mathematical sense they provide better than 2 HG implant sets and upgrade all tackle mods to near-best in slot faction for free.
That linked T2 point beats an unlinked RF/low officer point by almost 10% range. |
|
Esnaelc Sin'led
AdAstra. Beach Club
28
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 12:53:48 -
[41] - Quote
Honnestly, who were using AFs before T3Ds were introduced ?
AFs will still need buffs one way or the other for them to be used among the current meta, dominated by Kite-Cruisers. And sadly, i could not see a single word about that in the new realeased road map update. |
gregora mai
HildCo Interplanetar Villore Accords
169
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 13:04:11 -
[42] - Quote
Hail to the King CCP! Great News! I love these changes. Now I can get back to my T2 Frigs for Small Plexes! |
W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
372
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 13:08:33 -
[43] - Quote
Esnaelc Sin'led wrote:Honnestly, who were using AFs before T3Ds were introduced ?
AFs will still need buffs one way or the other for them to be used among the current meta, dominated by Kite-Cruisers. And sadly, i could not see a single word about that in the new realeased road map update.
no one was, they sucked pre t3ds almost as bad as they suck now |
Arla Sarain
668
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 13:41:27 -
[44] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Esnaelc Sin'led wrote:Honnestly, who were using AFs before T3Ds were introduced ?
AFs will still need buffs one way or the other for them to be used among the current meta, dominated by Kite-Cruisers. And sadly, i could not see a single word about that in the new realeased road map update. no one was, they sucked pre t3ds almost as bad as they suck now Considering all but the Jaguar have slower MWD speeds than HACs, with only a few of them having any kind of projection capability in the current kite meta, this shouldn't be a surprise or any sort of news to anyone. T3Ds didn't simply replace AFs - they became what AFs should have been at least remotely close to. |
Xavier Azabu
Tarantism
25
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 13:43:22 -
[45] - Quote
Esnaelc Sin'led wrote:Honnestly, who were using AFs before T3Ds were introduced ?
AFs will still need buffs one way or the other for them to be used among the current meta, dominated by Kite-Cruisers. And sadly, i could not see a single word about that in the new realeased road map update.
Speed speed speed and speed buf to AFs |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2319
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 13:50:11 -
[46] - Quote
Xavier Azabu wrote:Esnaelc Sin'led wrote:Honnestly, who were using AFs before T3Ds were introduced ?
AFs will still need buffs one way or the other for them to be used among the current meta, dominated by Kite-Cruisers. And sadly, i could not see a single word about that in the new realeased road map update. Speed speed speed and speed buf to AFs
Can we please not make speed creep an even bigger problem than it alraedy is? |
Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
2027
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 13:59:37 -
[47] - Quote
OMG destroyers are good at killing frigates? NEEEERF
Only things wrong with them IMO is their speed, the ability to fit oversized prop mods and state switching cool down. I hope that they get a ban on oversize prop mods instead of a pg nerf...
Really though, if AFs would have been given the AB speed bonus like people were asking for when they were reballanced, T3Ds wouldn't be such a big issue.
Dear eve players, please try and use the word "content" less and instead, be specific. Thanks
|
W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
374
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 14:32:30 -
[48] - Quote
why do people hate oversized propmods so much, they are all around awesome. Both to fight against and with. |
Arec Bardwin
1875
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 14:34:47 -
[49] - Quote
Give AFs interceptor grade warp speed (8AU/s?) and nerf fitting on T3Ds so fitting an oversized prop mod really requires some serious sacrifice. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1207
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 14:41:28 -
[50] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:why do people hate oversized propmods so much, they are all around awesome. Both to fight against and with.
kinda tells you how crap normal sized AB's are..
T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely.
ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats
Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
|
|
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2132
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 14:50:10 -
[51] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:OMG destroyers are good at killing frigates? NEEEERF
My jackdaw made a prophecy run away. |
Samillian
Angry Mustellid Decayed Orbit
1033
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 15:15:42 -
[52] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:OMG destroyers are good at killing frigates? NEEEERF
Not only frigates, our Svipul fleet shredded a equal size BC fleet a few nights ago with ease. A dessie that moves like a frigate and has the DPS and tank of a cruiser is simply overpowered no matter how you try and spin it.
NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
|
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2132
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 15:25:02 -
[53] - Quote
Samillian wrote:Rek Seven wrote:OMG destroyers are good at killing frigates? NEEEERF Not only frigates, our Svipul fleet shredded a equal size BC fleet a few nights ago with ease. A dessie that moves like a frigate and has the DPS and tank of a cruiser is simply overpowered no matter how you try and spin it.
Nothing says overpowered like getting 280mm arty, DOUBLE masb, MWD, T2 point and still managing 1985+ alpha out the thing.
Fitting compromises, you say? "LOLWUT?!", said an unnamed spokesperson for Svipul manufacturers. |
Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
2028
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 15:44:59 -
[54] - Quote
Samillian wrote:Rek Seven wrote:OMG destroyers are good at killing frigates? NEEEERF Not only frigates, our Svipul fleet shredded a equal size BC fleet a few nights ago with ease. A dessie that moves like a frigate and has the DPS and tank of a cruiser is simply overpowered no matter how you try and spin it.
BC are not designed to be destroyer killers especially not brutixes if THIS is what you are talking about.
But either way I'm not trying to spin it anyway, as i said, there should be some small nerfs and a buff to AFs (or HACs) to be a better counter.
Let's not forget, these are T3 destroyers, they should decimate T1 frigs and should be able to stand toe to toe with T1 cruiser and bigger ships if flow right.
Dear eve players, please try and use the word "content" less and instead, be specific. Thanks
|
Odracir Atosc
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 16:33:49 -
[55] - Quote
I think its a bit ridiculous that johndrees is in this group because the only thing that he understands is hot droping nothing else. |
Soltys
23
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 17:00:38 -
[56] - Quote
Ability to fit oversized prop mods should be really looked at - and perhaps properly nerfed (or completely disallowed). A simple constraint such as "oversized propulsion module receives 90% penalty to its effects when fitted to undersized ship" would do the thing - without having to tinker with ships' stats in this context.
|
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1133
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 17:10:41 -
[57] - Quote
any talk about the scan res bonus on sharpshooter mode?
I can't see any good reason not to remove it. you can run silly instalock camps without even trying. I'm trying to fly a ship with 2.6k ehp. it's pretty difficult when people show up in ships with 900 scan res and 2k alpha out to decloak range in just a normal fit.
I can't think of any legitimate non-awful use for it. but then I feel that way for scan res rigs and sebos as well, maybe I'm stupid. I just don't see why gatecampers should be presented with more options when it's so easy for them nowadays with infinite range 90% webs and whatnot. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2322
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 21:17:31 -
[58] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:
Let's not forget, these are T3 destroyers, they should decimate T1 frigs and should be able to stand toe to toe with T1 cruiser and bigger ships if flow right.
Why should they be able to stand against cruisers? |
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
20
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 21:41:40 -
[59] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Rek Seven wrote:OMG destroyers are good at killing frigates? NEEEERF My jackdaw made a prophecy run away.
Bad prophecy fit and pilot. |
Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
2029
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 21:53:41 -
[60] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Rek Seven wrote:
Let's not forget, these are T3 destroyers, they should decimate T1 frigs and should be able to stand toe to toe with T1 cruiser and bigger ships if flow right.
Why should they be able to stand against cruisers?
Because T1 cruisers are the next hull size up but two tech levels lower. That's my logic anyway.
There main counter should be AFs (by utilizing sig tanking and comparable speed) and HAC's (through superior tank and damage projection).
Dear eve players, please try and use the word "content" less and instead, be specific. Thanks
|
|
JOhnDrees
Deep Axion Honorable Third Party
25
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 22:54:51 -
[61] - Quote
Odracir Atosc wrote:I think its a bit ridiculous that johndrees is in this group because the only thing that he understands is hot droping nothing else.
I have quite a bit of evidence to the contrary. I do enjoy a good hotrod though.
|
4chan SlashPOL
Implying Jita Prices Vaguely Opsec.
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 23:05:12 -
[62] - Quote
Odracir Atosc wrote:I think its a bit ridiculous that johndrees is in this group because the only thing that he understands is hot droping nothing else.
And the only thing that CVA members know how to do is bling marauders to be more expensive than a carrier... |
Bloodmyst Ranwar
Leviathan Rising Affirmative.
145
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 23:27:05 -
[63] - Quote
- All mode bonuses should be kept for now. Let it play out longer until we see Assault Frigs get a buff and the new T2 Dessies.
- I would have really like if they kept the same insurance and price point. Risk adverse play is just a parasite imo.
- Two glaring nerfs that I believe are welcome right now, the Snipe instalock Svipul fit needs to be looked at. The scan res and/or alpha damage absolutely needs a nerf. I think many are in agreeance with this.
- The oversized AB Confessor fit, don't think there is much of an issue with it. Honestly 50/50 on this, simply because a PG nerf is just too much. The confessor is in a really good place right now, I'd like to see it stay where it is.
- Please do not touch how the modes work. They are fine as it is, if you can't work out how to force a T3D pilot into a mode, thats on you. Also, why is the instawarp a problem? Just get a point on it........
I would really hate to see T3D's pigeon holed into a specific role. Please don't destroy something that is so much fun (fingers crossed).
|
Johnny Riko
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
72
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 23:31:16 -
[64] - Quote
Bloodmyst Ranwar wrote:- All mode bonuses should be kept for now. Let it play out longer until we see Assault Frigs get a buff and the new T2 Dessies.
- I would have really like if they kept the same insurance and price point. Risk adverse play is just a parasite imo.
- Two glaring nerfs that I believe are welcome right now, the Snipe instalock Svipul fit needs to be looked at. The scan res and/or alpha damage absolutely needs a nerf. I think many are in agreeance with this.
- The oversized AB Confessor fit, don't think there is much of an issue with it. Honestly 50/50 on this, simply because a PG nerf is just too much. The confessor is in a really good place right now, I'd like to see it stay where it is.
- Please do not touch how the modes work. They are fine as it is, if you can't work out how to force a T3D pilot into a mode, thats on you. Also, why is the instawarp a problem? Just get a point on it........
I would really hate to see T3D's pigeon holed into a specific role. Please don't destroy something that is so much fun (fingers crossed).
Assault Frigates are getting a buff? Link?
I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
|
elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
875
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 00:42:50 -
[65] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:Assault Frigates are getting a buff? Link?
They will, at some point. Just not in the near future. Maybe 2018-ish?
Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
|
Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
2030
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 07:44:06 -
[66] - Quote
If the 66% bonus to velocity while in propulsion mode was replaced with a warp speed bonus, would T3Ds still be viable?
On the insta-lock issue, i don't think the ability for destroyers to lock frigates fast is an issue, given that there job is to kill frigates.
Dear eve players, please try and use the word "content" less and instead, be specific. Thanks
|
Esnaelc Sin'led
AdAstra. Beach Club
29
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 13:19:56 -
[67] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote: Assault Frigates are getting a buff? Link?
CCP talked about it in a o7 Show this summer., and never mentioned it again. As usual... Anouncing things that never come, or just super super late. And i thought they would stop doing that .. (refering to last FanFest).
Anyway, thinking that removing T3Ds from Small FW plexes would leave more space to AFs is completly stupid, if you are not buffing them BEFORE doing that change.
First buff AFs. Then see how it's going. Then ban T3D from Smalls if necessary despite buff.
That's just a way to avoid working on AFs globally.
*sigh*
Also, the only T3D right now that could be concidered OP is .. again .. the Svipul. Can fit - 2 utility module (2 neuts) - 1 oversized prop. - 1 oversized shield booster.
For just one single low slot sacrificed. |
Odracir Atosc
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 14:09:01 -
[68] - Quote
4chan SlashPOL wrote:Odracir Atosc wrote:I think its a bit ridiculous that johndrees is in this group because the only thing that he understands is hot droping nothing else. And the only thing that CVA members know how to do is bling marauders to be more expensive than a carrier...
And the only thing that your alliance seams to do is losing more ships than it kills |
Odracir Atosc
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 14:13:14 -
[69] - Quote
JOhnDrees wrote:Odracir Atosc wrote:I think its a bit ridiculous that johndrees is in this group because the only thing that he understands is hot droping nothing else. I have quite a bit of evidence to the contrary. I do enjoy a good hotdrop though.
You have like 2 videos of you killing without hotdroping but all the rest is you guys go after very easy targets and posting on youtube as if you were doing something really hard. |
SFM Hobb3s
Wrecking Shots Northern Coalition.
378
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 14:42:29 -
[70] - Quote
I would agree that the Svi needs to sacrifice something more in order to fit oversize AB. As much as I would like to restrict mounting oversize AB to T3d's altogether, I'm guessing that would serious curb T3D's use as a brawler. For snipers it probably wouldn't matter, I've never been able to put together a reasonable beam confessor fitting with oversize AB. I Never needed more than 1mn Mwd anyways.
Keep in mind the roadmap for CCP. There's at least two major things that come to mind that I know are going to impact my T3D use: the balance pass that just happened with battlecruisers, and the new destroyers coming out (in particular the microjumping capability which will likely end a LOT of kiting/sniping meta) |
|
Esnaelc Sin'led
AdAstra. Beach Club
29
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 15:18:01 -
[71] - Quote
SFM Hobb3s wrote:(in particular the microjumping capability which will likely end a LOT of kiting/sniping meta)
That depends a LOT on the mecanics that could come out of that. Timer ? Fitting requirement ? Cooldown ? Range ? You land at 0 speed ? Full speed ? Etc etc etc. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1207
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 15:25:51 -
[72] - Quote
suggestions
- make all prop mods size specific - nerf all modes a little - nerf all base stats a little - nerf fittings a little - remove 50% damage role bonus - remove T2 resists
so the end result should mean they cant outperform any T2 ships like AF's etc at what they do best but they will still have the adaptability and generalisation that is meant too be the point rather than having stronger than T2 power on top of the T3 design
T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely.
ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats
Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
|
W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
375
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 15:50:36 -
[73] - Quote
All the hate for oversized abs, they are not the problem and never were - for anything. Yeah when a confessor handled with them as if it was a mwd cruiser it wasnt great, but those days are over.
Oversized ab ships are all around good for the game. |
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
1278
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 16:29:12 -
[74] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:All the hate for oversized abs, they are not the problem and never were - for anything. Yeah when a confessor handled with them as if it was a mwd cruiser it wasnt great, but those days are over.
Oversized ab ships are all around good for the game.
I'd rather prefer oversized AB remaining as a niche tactic that requires significant dedication to become viable, like Jackdaws with links and snakes, not a totally redundant fit like you can realize it on a disposable svipul. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1797
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 16:43:20 -
[75] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:suggestions
- make all prop mods size specific - nerf all modes a little - nerf all base stats a little - nerf fittings a little - remove 50% damage role bonus - remove T2 resists
so the end result should mean they cant outperform any T2 ships like AF's etc at what they do best but they will still have the adaptability and generalisation that is meant too be the point rather than having stronger than T2 power on top of the T3 design
Your unreasonable hatred for all things T3 has been noted.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
|
Esnaelc Sin'led
AdAstra. Beach Club
29
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 16:48:38 -
[76] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:suggestions
- make all prop mods size specific - nerf all modes a little - nerf all base stats a little - nerf fittings a little - remove 50% damage role bonus - remove T2 resists
so the end result should mean they cant outperform any T2 ships like AF's etc at what they do best but they will still have the adaptability and generalisation that is meant too be the point rather than having stronger than T2 power on top of the T3 design
1- Nope. It would kill lots and lots of particular fits around this principle. 2- Nope. ABs are good as they are, even if a bit too slow, they can't be cut off by a point. MWDs have significant fitting and capacitor penalty. 3- This has been done already. 4- Maybe for the Svipul only, but it would kill its Arty version. 5- That's a destroyer class ship. It is MEANT to deal damage. 6- What ?
If the issue comes out when you compare T3Ds to AFs, the issue are the AFs, not the T3Ds. Why ? Because AFs were ALREADY not that good before T3Ds were introduced. And honestly i've flown each T3Ds (at my level), and i could only see the Svipul standing over the others, by far du to its 'wide' fitting capacity. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
879
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 16:51:05 -
[77] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:All the hate for oversized abs, they are not the problem and never were - for anything. Yeah when a confessor handled with them as if it was a mwd cruiser it wasnt great, but those days are over.
Oversized ab ships are all around good for the game.
I agree the Confessor is now the "fast kid" in the schoolyard and 2400m/s is not even a related to as fast. I think the Confessor suffered enough.
Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
|
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1207
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 17:25:48 -
[78] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Harvey James wrote:suggestions
- make all prop mods size specific - nerf all modes a little - nerf all base stats a little - nerf fittings a little - remove 50% damage role bonus - remove T2 resists
so the end result should mean they cant outperform any T2 ships like AF's etc at what they do best but they will still have the adaptability and generalisation that is meant too be the point rather than having stronger than T2 power on top of the T3 design Your unreasonable hatred for all things T3 has been noted.
unreasonable eh? ... how about T3's obsolete the majority of ships they even vaguely complete with is that not a good enough reason?
T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely.
ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats
Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
|
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1207
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 17:29:52 -
[79] - Quote
Esnaelc Sin'led wrote:Harvey James wrote:suggestions
- make all prop mods size specific - nerf all modes a little - nerf all base stats a little - nerf fittings a little - remove 50% damage role bonus - remove T2 resists
so the end result should mean they cant outperform any T2 ships like AF's etc at what they do best but they will still have the adaptability and generalisation that is meant too be the point rather than having stronger than T2 power on top of the T3 design 1- Nope. It would kill lots and lots of particular fits around this principle. 2- Nope. ABs are good as they are, even if a bit too slow, they can't be cut off by a point. MWDs have significant fitting and capacitor penalty. 3- This has been done already. 4- Maybe for the Svipul only, but it would kill its Arty version. 5- That's a destroyer class ship. It is MEANT to deal damage. 6- What ? If the issue comes out when you compare T3Ds to AFs, the issue are the AFs, not the T3Ds. Why ? Because AFs were ALREADY not that good before T3Ds were introduced. And honestly i've flown each T3Ds (at my level), and i could only see the Svipul standing over the others, by far du to its 'wide' fitting capacity.
2 - i said modes not prop mods, i.e. def/prop/sharpshooter modes. 3- they barely touched them 4- depends perhaps a little on 1 but its well noted just how strong their pg is. 5 - a hecate doing 750dps OH is sooo OP, and why should they get such a OP bonus for nothing anyway its bad design 6 - T2 resists should be exclusive too T2 , T3 T1 and navy should all have the base resists only.
T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely.
ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats
Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
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Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
593
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 18:00:06 -
[80] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Esnaelc Sin'led wrote:Harvey James wrote:suggestions
- make all prop mods size specific - nerf all modes a little - nerf all base stats a little - nerf fittings a little - remove 50% damage role bonus - remove T2 resists
so the end result should mean they cant outperform any T2 ships like AF's etc at what they do best but they will still have the adaptability and generalisation that is meant too be the point rather than having stronger than T2 power on top of the T3 design 1- Nope. It would kill lots and lots of particular fits around this principle. 2- Nope. ABs are good as they are, even if a bit too slow, they can't be cut off by a point. MWDs have significant fitting and capacitor penalty. 3- This has been done already. 4- Maybe for the Svipul only, but it would kill its Arty version. 5- That's a destroyer class ship. It is MEANT to deal damage. 6- What ? If the issue comes out when you compare T3Ds to AFs, the issue are the AFs, not the T3Ds. Why ? Because AFs were ALREADY not that good before T3Ds were introduced. And honestly i've flown each T3Ds (at my level), and i could only see the Svipul standing over the others, by far du to its 'wide' fitting capacity. 2 - i said modes not prop mods, i.e. def/prop/sharpshooter modes. 3- they barely touched them 4- depends perhaps a little on 1 but its well noted just how strong their pg is. 5 - a hecate doing 750dps OH is sooo OP, and why should they get such a OP bonus for nothing anyway its bad design 6 - T2 resists should be exclusive too T2 , T3 T1 and navy should all have the base resists only.
Harvey, are you the old CCP? Do you know of any other method of balancing other than nerfing something into oblivion? I see your posts, and for every topic its a list of nerfs everytime.
A hecate is not OP, id actually say its one of the better balanced t3d. The dps it can shoot is only good to about 2-5km unless you go into sharpshooter mode. Ive killed hecates in ac nados, kiting them at 7-10km and ruining them. Hecates are slow as hell, put a web or two on them, get around 7-10km and get a KM. Even easier if youre in a bigger ship with neuts.
Please look at the other numbers in eft besides dps, and you will see the hecate is well balanced. Svipul mainly needs either a bigger sig or slower base speed or speed bonus from prop mode
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
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Casivek Andrard
Space Ship Gamers inc. Violent Declaration
7
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Posted - 2015.10.09 18:23:24 -
[81] - Quote
I have only one concern given that I can understand the balance issue of the T3D but they are only designed to really go after other frigates and T1(poorly fit)0 cruisers so putting them in a place where more often then not is going to be a T2 cruiser of some kind will do more harm to a T3D in FW than good as it would make them pointless when an assault frigate can still go in smalls and have comparable tank. I mean yes getting a 40k+ tank in a small is a bit much but assult figs can as well and have the same issue of dps.the issue is that a T3D can get a strong average of 20k and have high dps of a destroyer. That doesn't make it good against cruisers that can double it. I personally think pushing T3D out of small plexes will just make them useless for FW. |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1482
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 19:28:58 -
[82] - Quote
How the **** can you people defend T3D...
These things should have never been put into the game. A sandbox mmo-rpg as durable as Eve shouldn't have powercreep, and this ships completely ruined the balance.
T3D obliterates T1 cruisers, all Frigates, all Destroyers, and then, to add insult to injury, they cost less then 50m isk.
PS: The cherry on top of the ****** cake, TD3 can enter small FW complexes.
The Tears Must Flow
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epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
1774
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 22:28:09 -
[83] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:How the **** can you people defend T3D...
These things should have never been put into the game. A sandbox mmo-rpg as durable as Eve shouldn't have powercreep, and this ships completely ruined the balance.
T3D obliterates T1 cruisers, all Frigates, all Destroyers, and then, to add insult to injury, they cost less then 50m isk.
PS: The cherry on top of the ****** cake, TD3 can enter small FW complexes.
CCP have announced they will be restricted from entering small FW complexes
They are reducing Insurance payouts to a much lower level that addresses the cost argument.
There are 4 TD3 each with different advantages, and weaknesses.
Changing the balance, and adding variety, is NOT ruining balance, after all if there were no changes, then everyone would be complaining?
What it does mean, is tactics and ships flown need to change, what has worked for years, and where people have got comfortable and settled in their ways, no longer works.
That's a good thing, Isn't it?
But I do sympathise with Pilots, who only fly one ship, probably very well, feeling rather, disheartened.
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1210
|
Posted - 2015.10.10 00:04:46 -
[84] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:Harvey James wrote:Esnaelc Sin'led wrote:Harvey James wrote:suggestions
- make all prop mods size specific - nerf all modes a little - nerf all base stats a little - nerf fittings a little - remove 50% damage role bonus - remove T2 resists
so the end result should mean they cant outperform any T2 ships like AF's etc at what they do best but they will still have the adaptability and generalisation that is meant too be the point rather than having stronger than T2 power on top of the T3 design 1- Nope. It would kill lots and lots of particular fits around this principle. 2- Nope. ABs are good as they are, even if a bit too slow, they can't be cut off by a point. MWDs have significant fitting and capacitor penalty. 3- This has been done already. 4- Maybe for the Svipul only, but it would kill its Arty version. 5- That's a destroyer class ship. It is MEANT to deal damage. 6- What ? If the issue comes out when you compare T3Ds to AFs, the issue are the AFs, not the T3Ds. Why ? Because AFs were ALREADY not that good before T3Ds were introduced. And honestly i've flown each T3Ds (at my level), and i could only see the Svipul standing over the others, by far du to its 'wide' fitting capacity. 2 - i said modes not prop mods, i.e. def/prop/sharpshooter modes. 3- they barely touched them 4- depends perhaps a little on 1 but its well noted just how strong their pg is. 5 - a hecate doing 750dps OH is sooo OP, and why should they get such a OP bonus for nothing anyway its bad design 6 - T2 resists should be exclusive too T2 , T3 T1 and navy should all have the base resists only. Harvey, are you the old CCP? Do you know of any other method of balancing other than nerfing something into oblivion? I see your posts, and for every topic its a list of nerfs everytime. A hecate is not OP, id actually say its one of the better balanced t3d. The dps it can shoot is only good to about 2-5km unless you go into sharpshooter mode. Ive killed hecates in ac nados, kiting them at 7-10km and ruining them. Hecates are slow as hell, put a web or two on them, get around 7-10km and get a KM. Even easier if youre in a bigger ship with neuts. Please look at the other numbers in eft besides dps, and you will see the hecate is well balanced. Svipul mainly needs either a bigger sig or slower base speed or speed bonus from prop mode
there are lots of OP things in eve that need nerfing FACT, i just point them out like other people do, i have done threads about buffing various things from time too time and in various threads, but people do tend too focus on things that effect them and them ONLY, which as we know doesn't lend itself too a balanced state of affairs.
T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely.
ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats
Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
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HiddenPorpoise
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
396
|
Posted - 2015.10.10 00:27:27 -
[85] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Changing the balance, and adding variety, is NOT ruining balance, after all if there were no changes, then everyone would be complaining? They are flat better than everything below them, two of them even align faster than nano interceptors without fitting. An align fit jackdaw can align in under one tick. |
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2489
|
Posted - 2015.10.10 04:20:57 -
[86] - Quote
The fatigue and mode bonus decay are both bad ideas. Decay especially just leads to clickety-click-click to refresh. Fatigue is just annoying and defeats the purpose of having switchable modes.
Just nerf them, especially Svipul and confessor.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Silverbackyererse
The Church of Awesome Heiian Conglomerate
159
|
Posted - 2015.10.10 14:33:32 -
[87] - Quote
Don't suck what's left of the fun out of the game people. T3d's are awesome good fun that are not invincible by a long shot.
Game's going to the dogs already. Don't hasten it's demise. |
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
21
|
Posted - 2015.10.10 15:09:23 -
[88] - Quote
Zappity wrote:The fatigue and mode bonus decay are both bad ideas. Decay especially just leads to clickety-click-click to refresh. Fatigue is just annoying and defeats the purpose of having switchable modes.
Just nerf them, especially Svipul and confessor.
The svipul needs a hard nerf, the confessor just needs to be restricted to mwds with a slight and I mean slight range nerf. |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
502
|
Posted - 2015.10.10 23:41:51 -
[89] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:
i don't quite see how t3ds are in any way related to AFs, because before t3ds we flew interdictors if we wanted something solid and also can enter small plexes.
1% of eve flew interdictors. everybody else in the game fly t1 destroyers.
Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
160
|
Posted - 2015.10.11 01:30:09 -
[90] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:i don't quite see how t3ds are in any way related to AFs, because before t3ds we flew interdictors if we wanted something solid and also can enter small plexes. People who used to use AFs now use T3s. There are only a few edge cases where it is worth using an AF over a T3. Also AFs would be dangerous to a T3 if they were half decent as they counter one of the main advantages of the T3 which is its low signature. So once AFs are in a good place that will naturally balance T3s in the overall meta.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
377
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Posted - 2015.10.11 02:02:40 -
[91] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Bienator II wrote:i don't quite see how t3ds are in any way related to AFs, because before t3ds we flew interdictors if we wanted something solid and also can enter small plexes. People who used to use AFs now use T3s. There are only a few edge cases where it is worth using an AF over a T3. Also AFs would be dangerous to a T3 if they were half decent as they counter one of the main advantages of the T3 which is its low signature. So once AFs are in a good place that will naturally balance T3s in the overall meta.
While that is true, balancing by power creep is a very bad idea in general. Also, to be fair, afs sucked since the cruiser rebalance, dictors, faction frigs and priate frigates are just so much better all around.
Also, the eveiseasy channel by suitona had a recent svipul video, which does an excelent job of showing what is wrong with t3ds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiC0VCzDElo (although that fit flown in lowsec vs the wrong people is a free killmail waiting to be taken and is awefull vs all other t3ds if fit properly) |
Soltys
24
|
Posted - 2015.10.11 02:06:27 -
[92] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:How the **** can you people defend T3D...
These things should have never been put into the game. A sandbox mmo-rpg as durable as Eve shouldn't have powercreep, and this ships completely ruined the balance.
T3D obliterates T1 cruisers, all Frigates, all Destroyers, and then, to add insult to injury, they cost less then 50m isk.
PS: The cherry on top of the ****** cake, TD3 can enter small FW complexes.
Well, the lissues in bigger perspective are:
In-between classes ships like destroyers and battlecruisers (though these ones are pretty well balanced with particular role to serve) with their weird postion in hierarchy implicitly turn them as superior-lower class ships (stronger, more durable, more cap - but same gun sizes). Combat destroyers being essentially "frigate killers" by design/idea automatically lead to question - in combat role, why fly a frigate when you can fly a destroyer (at least in T1 vs T1 senarios) ? T2 AFs fared well (relatively).
But then once came T3, first to cruiser hulls leaving HACs in shadow (and not only those) up to these days. Now the same was repeated with destroyers. The whole T3 concept is somewhat flawed (especially with relation to T2) and at the edge of being unbalancable with relation to T1 and T2 - particularly if T3Ds (in this case) are supposed to retain "frigate killer" role.
Aside fixing glaring issues like price, instawarping or oversized prop modules (which should be fixed at module level instead of by tinkering with t3d stats) I'm curious what they are going to do. |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
3412
|
Posted - 2015.10.11 03:20:34 -
[93] - Quote
Flyinghotpocket wrote:Bienator II wrote:
i don't quite see how t3ds are in any way related to AFs, because before t3ds we flew interdictors if we wanted something solid and also can enter small plexes.
1% of eve flew interdictors. everybody else in the game fly t1 destroyers. of course because they only had a short glory period. It lasted between the interdictor rebalance till t3d came out.
the class which got overshadowed was the interdictor, not the AF. AF were bad in the meta before t3d and before interdictor. If the period would have taken longer everyone would have used interdictors. But it was too short to change their reputation from being a bubble ship to being a effective combat hull with more dps, speed and tank than a AF.
The fact that nobody is using AFs has nothing to do with t3ds. it has everything to do with AFs never having a proper role. At least not since the T1 frig/destroyer and faction frig rebalance. A few fits like those for harpy fleets worked and still are somewhat popular. But is the role of a AF to be a cormorant with more tank? i don't know. And yes retribution gangs can kill talwar gangs, but almost anything can do that.
you can quote me on that: changing t3ds and restricting their use in small plexes won't help AFs unless AFs itself are also changed and given a proper role in the game. Too many ships do the same thing.
the first thing i do once the t3d small plex restriction is live is to remove the dust of my stack of heretics and flycatchers since they have a use again.
how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
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Taggs Corhan
Crimson Reavers
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.11 12:43:25 -
[94] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:The focus group members are free to discuss whatever topics related to T3Ds that they wish, but CCP will also be providing questions for the group to help get discussion going. The first question I've proposed to the group is: Quote:Consider the option of trying to push the mode switching mechanic further into the forefront. Encouraging more switching in an average fight, and more of a performance difference between a pilot who knows how to mode switch well and one that doesn't (which would hopefully raise the skill level required to get something similar to current performance) can you guys:
- Point out opportunities you see to encourage that kind of gameplay
- Point out issues that are holding it back (for instance common situations where people spend most of the fight in one mode)
- Think about whether that goal is one you think will lead to better gameplay for both T3D pilots and those fighting against them (basically, should that be a priority of this balance pass)
For instance, one idea we've been bouncing around internally would be shifting some of the damage bonuses into the sharpshooter mode to provide more reasons to enter and exit that mode multiple times in a fight
These boats are brilliant for PVP, and for PVE content, giving newbros a quick route into doing higher-end pve content, as well as being wonderfully effective in group PVP.
As it stands though, the mode switching is a little lackluster for quite a few situations.
I can't really speak for PVP content, as that isn't an area I'm well versed in, so I won't even try.
For pve however, You'll spend almost all your time in Sharpshooter and Propulsion, never really using tank-mode except for the rare cases where the rats can actually -hit- you.
And in those cases that they can, you'll never leave defensive.
This reduces the mode-switching to a lazy-refit, instead of a feature. Makes the thought process in PVE as follows (and I would imagine, in PVP)
"Can the rats hit me? If no, Sharpshooter, better application, no worries. If Yes, Tank mode."
and then.
"Is the ride the gate more than 40 km? If yes, Prop mode, if not, stay in current mode."
I've even gone so far as to bring up a new alt in the ways of combat to see if having lower skills and needing to train up would affect the decisions in a mission, or a combat site. And, really, it didn't. Within a week, the newly trained alt was running level three's with impunity, and within two, was running level 4's as if it were a non-issue. Any sites she probed down, in high, or nul-sec, (didn't do lowsec, because reasons) were also a complete non-issue.
Whats more, I can break down the modes spent in time-wise. Tank Mode: ~15%, Prop Mode: ~3%, Sharpshooter Mode: ~82%
Combine sharpshooter being the superior mode, along with sharpshooter being rather lackluster on all but the Amarr and Caldari hulls (at least for PVE. I get that the massive tracking boost is awesome for PVP on the Svipul) and that the Gallente sharpshooter mode barely makes a dent in the range of its weapon system....
I have a somewhat hairbrained suggestion as to how to make the other modes a bit more attractive.
Give all of the hulls a role-bonus to the range of their weaponsystem so that they can all (with long-ranged weapons) reach out to 50 km comfortably. Further with the right ammo, but 50 as a goal for longrange weaponry.
Short range weapons with the long range ammo should hit a sweet spot of about 30 km, but because of the differences in weapons, this is likely not possible, and also likely overpowered for some of them. At the same time.... Lolscorch.
With range having been removed from sharpshooter, that mode can then be re-named to Fire-Control, and repurposed. Have the mode give a little bit of tracking/Application bonus, higher scan-res, and a minor AOE Non-stacking bonus to scan-res and tracking to squad, at the cost of a higher sig-radius (more signal coming from the ship) Makes 'Fire-Control' mode attractive to use in small gang, but also makes you -actually- more vulnerable to use it.
Tank mode, I feel, shouldn't give resist bonuses, or at least not as much. Its a destroyer, should be more focused on repping itself, rather than counting on logi to save it. give all tank modes a sig-radius reduction, an agility reduction, and a bonus to active-rep. For the gallente hull, perhaps give it a massive bonus to hull repair as well for hillarities sake.
Propulsion mode - Here, the modes are all very much varied, but the hulls that shine the most with it, are the ones that fit oversized mods. Seeing as all of this is supposed to be taken from the same technology, and that racial flavor is kinda important, this is both a good, and a bad thing. Svipul reins supreme with the oversized mod, with a close second of the Confessor a close second. Caldari's lack of real speed gain plays a detriment in favor of massive agility... too much agility, with too little ability to dictate range to take advantage of its weapon system. ((Speaking from doing cruiser burner missions in the jackdaw)) The Gallente, then get the caldari's agility, with the great speed of other modes - to only one prop mod type. In short, prop mode on Amm/Min is great, lackluster on Gal/Cal. I must admit, i don't have a suggestion for how to make the prop mode more attractive, just a bit of thought on why its not as attractive as it could be.
Summary, Tank mode isn't attractive enough because you aren't vulnerable enough in other modes, resist bonus favors too heavily into logi-ship gameplay favoring larger fleets (60k EHP jackdaw/Confessor fleet anyone?) Tank should favor local tank, and make the ship less focused on maneuvering, more focused on repairing. Sharpshooter should make you MORE vulnerable, instead of 'default' vulnerable, and prop mode is bum.
A bulet may have your name on it, but shrapnel is addressed 'to whom it may concern'.
A nuke is addressed to 'Current Resident'
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Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
502
|
Posted - 2015.10.11 15:51:29 -
[95] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:Flyinghotpocket wrote:Bienator II wrote:
i don't quite see how t3ds are in any way related to AFs, because before t3ds we flew interdictors if we wanted something solid and also can enter small plexes.
1% of eve flew interdictors. everybody else in the game fly t1 destroyers. of course because they only had a short glory period. It lasted between the interdictor rebalance till t3d came out. the class which got overshadowed was the interdictor, not the AF. AF were bad in the meta before t3d and before interdictor. If the period would have taken longer everyone would have used interdictors. But it was too short to change their reputation from being a bubble ship to being a effective combat hull with more dps, speed and tank than a AF. The fact that nobody is using AFs has nothing to do with t3ds. it has everything to do with AFs never having a proper role. At least not since the T1 frig/destroyer and faction frig rebalance. A few fits like those for harpy fleets worked and still are somewhat popular. But is the role of a AF to be a cormorant with more tank? i don't know. And yes retribution gangs can kill talwar gangs, but almost anything can do that. you can quote me on that: changing t3ds and restricting their use in small plexes won't help AFs unless AFs itself are also changed and given a proper role in the game. Too many ships do the same thing. the first thing i do once the t3d small plex restriction is live is to remove the dust of my stack of heretics and flycatchers since they have a use again. Are you high? 'nobody used afs' i can recall THOUSANDS of minmatar militia fleets using af's instead of destroyers in gangs, yeah the interdictors got a buff but people started docking them back up when they realized 'hey this is only slightly better than a t1 destroyer for a 40mil lossmail'
interdictors were short lived and still are. there are still more af's being flown around than interdictors despite t3ds
Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
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Davis TetrisKing
The Vendunari End of Life
132
|
Posted - 2015.10.13 00:44:32 -
[96] - Quote
motie one wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:Davis TetrisKing wrote:I think fixing the insta-warp trick should be a big priority. This is definitely a good idea. Totally disagree. If frigates can escape gate camps, why should a tactical destroyer, in propulsion mode not be able to follow? Destroyers are Frigate hunters, I know it is a bit of a shock to suddenly feel that as frigate pilots we are Prey, but there we are, it is going to take some getting used to, but overall a good shake up. Gate camps are not entitled to be provided easy kills. If players use the right ship, fitted well, and flown well, they ARE entitled to pass them. And If this refers to TD3 in combat? Put a point on them! Then there is no insta-warp anything.
Fair call.
The way I see it they can keep the agility bonus in speed mode. This still makes them difficult to catch. Like frigates. Frigates don't insta-warp unless they are nano-fit specifically for it, so I think T3Ds could be the same (pretty sure a dual nano Svipul in speed mode doesn't need to use the mode-switch trick). T3Ds fit to slip through camps would work, they just have to be fit for it.
The current mode-switching mechanic is just awkward. Mix it with insta-lock svipuls and it's just a game of chance with server ticks. |
Davis TetrisKing
The Vendunari End of Life
132
|
Posted - 2015.10.13 00:58:23 -
[97] - Quote
Taggs Corhan wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:The focus group members are free to discuss whatever topics related to T3Ds that they wish, but CCP will also be providing questions for the group to help get discussion going. The first question I've proposed to the group is: Quote:Consider the option of trying to push the mode switching mechanic further into the forefront. Encouraging more switching in an average fight, and more of a performance difference between a pilot who knows how to mode switch well and one that doesn't (which would hopefully raise the skill level required to get something similar to current performance) can you guys:
- Point out opportunities you see to encourage that kind of gameplay
- Point out issues that are holding it back (for instance common situations where people spend most of the fight in one mode)
- Think about whether that goal is one you think will lead to better gameplay for both T3D pilots and those fighting against them (basically, should that be a priority of this balance pass)
For instance, one idea we've been bouncing around internally would be shifting some of the damage bonuses into the sharpshooter mode to provide more reasons to enter and exit that mode multiple times in a fight These boats are brilliant for PVP, and for PVE content, giving newbros a quick route into doing higher-end pve content, as well as being wonderfully effective in group PVP. As it stands though, the mode switching is a little lackluster for quite a few situations. I can't really speak for PVP content, as that isn't an area I'm well versed in, so I won't even try. For pve however, You'll spend almost all your time in Sharpshooter and Propulsion, never really using tank-mode except for the rare cases where the rats can actually -hit- you. ...snip.... Summary, Tank mode isn't attractive enough because you aren't vulnerable enough in other modes, resist bonus favors too heavily into logi-ship gameplay favoring larger fleets (60k EHP jackdaw/Confessor fleet anyone?) Tank should favor local tank, and make the ship less focused on maneuvering, more focused on repairing. Sharpshooter should make you MORE vulnerable, instead of 'default' vulnerable, and prop mode is bum.
I think this is more of a problem with PvE than with T3Ds. Because PvE is so static once you hit break points on stuff like speed tanking, range tanking or active tanking you stop needing to worry about it can focus the rest on damage (and the break points are easy to hit). Due to the drawn-out combat in almost all PvE (except maybe burners) it encourages fits that are either cap stable or capless on normal ships and require the least complicated piloting (why drones and missiles are so popular, you don't have to worry about transversal). On T3Ds it also means you build the ship around the best mode. Since it's easy to kite in the T3Ds at range in sharpshooter this tends to be the best option. You rarely need to worry about incoming damage so you just stick with what will give you the best dps.
Another thing that encourages this is the sheer number of easy to kill targets. This significantly encourages long range weapons over small, because long range weapons kill things almost as quickly but don't have to worry about the travel time to get to your target. If there were less targets but they were significantly tankier brawl pve fits might actually be viable.
All in all PvE in eve is very predictable so the 'tactical' part of tac dessies isn't usually that big a deal. Granted, even if you only use defencive mode 5% of the time, if that 5% saved your ship from dying or needing to warp out it's still a huge bonus over other ships. If it didn't, well, I guess you didn't need to use defencive mode. |
Grorious Reader
Mongorian Horde
37
|
Posted - 2015.10.13 01:24:35 -
[98] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Consider the option of trying to push the mode switching mechanic further into the forefront. Encouraging more switching in an average fight, and more of a performance difference between a pilot who knows how to mode switch well and one that doesn't (which would hopefully raise the skill level required to get something similar to current performance) can you guys:
- Point out opportunities you see to encourage that kind of gameplay
- Point out issues that are holding it back (for instance common situations where people spend most of the fight in one mode)
- Think about whether that goal is one you think will lead to better gameplay for both T3D pilots and those fighting against them (basically, should that be a priority of this balance pass)
In regard to what's holding the mode switching mechanic back I'll just state the obvious: it's the way ship fitting in EVE works. You are always better off to choose a known role and use all your fitting modules to maximize your effectiveness in that role than you are to try to make a hybrid fit that does everything. In an RPG, a specialist pretty much always beats a generalist. Basically what I'm saying is that the fundamental design of tactical destroyers fights against one of the core pieces of EVE's design, and that's why the modes mechanic is under used.
How do you fix that? Well, for one, reduce the number and strength of bonuses that are changed with the mode switching and increase the number and strength of the bonuses that are always active. This reduces pressure to specialize for one particular mode. A more involved option would be to give T3Ds a specialized cargo hold that only allows modules, then let them refit from that hold on the fly, like a built-in mobile depot.
As long as the size of such a "refit hold" was very limited I don't think it would be any more over powered than a mobile depot can be with larger ships. |
Raktak Takrak
Spiritus Draconis Spaceship Bebop
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.13 04:39:17 -
[99] - Quote
Posted up a few points that may add to the discussion on FactionWarfare.com. Obviously the focus I take is how T3Ds impact FactionWarfare and fighting in Plexes.
Also more generally though I think T3Ds are not priced correctly especially if you compare them to their T3 cruiser brethren. I have compiled some data and conclusions in my article as well.
http://www.factionwarfare.com/t3d-tactical-destroyers-and-faction-warfare/
Interested to hear any feedback! |
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1576
|
Posted - 2015.10.13 11:15:13 -
[100] - Quote
About the modes in PvP how I use them solo ...
Default: prop mode (switch to instawarp defense mode in case of non-bubbled camp), then switch back When about to engage a target, sharp mode to get the lock fast, or prop mode to reduce range In fight keep in sharp/prop until first damage taken (or yellowboxed, depending on enemy's alpha), then switch to defense or GTFO in prop When winning the fight, back to sharp to get the pod Prop, GTFO
Sounds reasonable complex to me.
I'm my own NPC alt.
|
|
Feyrin
Star Frontiers Brotherhood of Spacers
45
|
Posted - 2015.10.13 17:54:12 -
[101] - Quote
Hi All,
So my ideas for T3 Destroyer balancing include ideas for Assault Frigate re-balancing also, because I believe that one of the key complaints against T3 Destroyers is that they currently largely invalidate the Assault Frigate class, with a couple of exceptions like the sniper Harpy.
There are currently 4 major issues with the T3 Destroyers that I see regularly posted.
- T3 Destroyers are too cost effective for their flexibility and firepower. I believe that CCP are already on top of this issue with the change to insurance payouts. It's a good solution because it does not affect production costs but achieves the goal of making the wallet hit larger for losing one.
- T3 Destroyers have few counters inside Small FW plexes aside from numbers, distorting the FW environment and preventing good fights. CCP have already stated T3 Destroyers will be prevented from entering small plexes fixing this issue.
- T3 Destroyers are too powerful in comparison to T1 cruisers.
- T3 Destroyers invalidate all classes of ships smaller than them.
I want to address point 3 and 4 together because they are linked into the role of the T3 Destroyers. The role as a flexible (and powerful) anti frigate and destroyer platform. The issue vs. T1 cruisers is that certain fits have comparable DPS & EHP to T1 cruiser fits but with better battlefield agility, damage mitigation and application. (We are looking at you double MSE AC Svipuls, and 10MN AB Confessors) The issue vs smaller ships is slightly artificial, their role is as an anti frigate platform if the ships were not very effective vs. smaller ships then they would not be fulfilling their role.
However there is a caveat to the above, Assault Frigates.
- Covert-Ops have cloaks
- Interceptors have nullification and speed
- Electronic attack frigates have EWAR.
- T1 Frigates are cheap.
- Pirate Frigates have special faction bonuses.
- Assault Frigates have nothing.
Assault frigates have nothing to really offer that T3 Destroyers donGÇÖt, being of comparable speed, with inferior resilience and firepower.
As such I propose refocusing the T3 Destroyers in their anti frigate role, by making their signature radius significantly larger, increasing base Signature Radius by ~20-25, making the class more vulnerable to cruiser sized weaponry, this does not affect their ability vs. frigates who won't see a significant boost in application but should make T3 Destroyers more vulnerable to their natural predators cruisers.
In order to address the AF class I recommend doing the reverse, significantly reducing AF signature radius to around 20-25, giving AFGÇÖs a new defined role as heavy tackle vs cruisers and larger. To further augment this role I would change the AF bonus to MWD bloom, to a new bonus, reduced effectiveness of stasis webification against the AF. Initially thinking 30-50% here. This will give AF a valid role on the battlefield different from the T3 destroyer as a hard tackle vs larger ships, whilst encouraging the use of varied fleet compositions.
I am sure the numbers need balance but I think the ideas above are a solid starting place.
Thanks,
Feyrin. |
d0cTeR9
Astro Technologies SpaceMonkey's Alliance
248
|
Posted - 2015.10.13 21:01:54 -
[102] - Quote
Reminds me of the linked svipul that tanked a AF and a RHML raven with web/points/painters on the svipul... and a heavy neut.
Good to see CCP want to fix t3 dessies!
Been around since the beginning.
|
Nou Mene
Out of Focus Odin's Call
11
|
Posted - 2015.10.14 06:13:22 -
[103] - Quote
Would it be unbalanced/stupid to give modes a short (on activation) effect and a "passive" effect? would it make changing modes advantageous? |
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
597
|
Posted - 2015.10.14 14:48:05 -
[104] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Stitch Kaneland wrote:Harvey James wrote:Esnaelc Sin'led wrote:Harvey James wrote:suggestions
- make all prop mods size specific - nerf all modes a little - nerf all base stats a little - nerf fittings a little - remove 50% damage role bonus - remove T2 resists
so the end result should mean they cant outperform any T2 ships like AF's etc at what they do best but they will still have the adaptability and generalisation that is meant too be the point rather than having stronger than T2 power on top of the T3 design 1- Nope. It would kill lots and lots of particular fits around this principle. 2- Nope. ABs are good as they are, even if a bit too slow, they can't be cut off by a point. MWDs have significant fitting and capacitor penalty. 3- This has been done already. 4- Maybe for the Svipul only, but it would kill its Arty version. 5- That's a destroyer class ship. It is MEANT to deal damage. 6- What ? If the issue comes out when you compare T3Ds to AFs, the issue are the AFs, not the T3Ds. Why ? Because AFs were ALREADY not that good before T3Ds were introduced. And honestly i've flown each T3Ds (at my level), and i could only see the Svipul standing over the others, by far du to its 'wide' fitting capacity. 2 - i said modes not prop mods, i.e. def/prop/sharpshooter modes. 3- they barely touched them 4- depends perhaps a little on 1 but its well noted just how strong their pg is. 5 - a hecate doing 750dps OH is sooo OP, and why should they get such a OP bonus for nothing anyway its bad design 6 - T2 resists should be exclusive too T2 , T3 T1 and navy should all have the base resists only. Harvey, are you the old CCP? Do you know of any other method of balancing other than nerfing something into oblivion? I see your posts, and for every topic its a list of nerfs everytime. A hecate is not OP, id actually say its one of the better balanced t3d. The dps it can shoot is only good to about 2-5km unless you go into sharpshooter mode. Ive killed hecates in ac nados, kiting them at 7-10km and ruining them. Hecates are slow as hell, put a web or two on them, get around 7-10km and get a KM. Even easier if youre in a bigger ship with neuts. Please look at the other numbers in eft besides dps, and you will see the hecate is well balanced. Svipul mainly needs either a bigger sig or slower base speed or speed bonus from prop mode there are lots of OP things in eve that need nerfing FACT, i just point them out like other people do, i have done threads about buffing various things from time too time and in various threads, but people do tend too focus on things that effect them and them ONLY, which as we know doesn't lend itself too a balanced state of affairs.
Lots of OP things? What you mean like your unhealthy obsession with rocket and HAM range? You are the only person ive seen mention this as an issue. Rockets have fairly low dps on most ships in comparison to turret based ships. See corax/talwar compared to algos, thrasher, coercer, catalyst etc. Their range is the only thing that makes them semi viable/flexible.
If you are trying to insinuate that im protecting my precious T3D, you are way off base. Ive flown T3D 3 times since their release and havent flown them since. The svipul is broken and i feel cheap flying it. The svipul needs to be pulled in, but you suggesting 5-6 nerfs at the same time is silly and will make it useless to those who still like flying it. Even once T3D are reigned in, i still wont fly them because small ship meta is boring to me.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
|
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1214
|
Posted - 2015.10.14 15:35:54 -
[105] - Quote
at stitch
actually fozzie accepted the point about rockets/HAM's range as performing too well, i have offered various options too change them and some buffs too their weaker dps and ive even mentioned about the exp radius being too good on some of the small missiles aswell, i haven't been the only one who has mentioned them though.
T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely.
ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats
Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
|
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
597
|
Posted - 2015.10.14 16:15:16 -
[106] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:at stitch
actually fozzie accepted the point about rockets/HAM's range as performing too welli have offered various options too change them and some buffs too their weaker dps and ive even mentioned about the exp radius being too good on some of the small missiles aswell, i haven't been the only one who has mentioned them though.
Source for the bolded?
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
|
Ray P
State Protectorate Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.14 18:20:57 -
[107] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:at stitch
actually fozzie accepted the point about rockets/HAM's range as performing too well.
Rubbish |
Fourteen Maken
Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance
209
|
Posted - 2015.10.14 19:02:23 -
[108] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Stitch Kaneland wrote:Harvey James wrote:Esnaelc Sin'led wrote:Harvey James wrote:suggestions
- make all prop mods size specific - nerf all modes a little - nerf all base stats a little - nerf fittings a little - remove 50% damage role bonus - remove T2 resists
so the end result should mean they cant outperform any T2 ships like AF's etc at what they do best but they will still have the adaptability and generalisation that is meant too be the point rather than having stronger than T2 power on top of the T3 design 1- Nope. It would kill lots and lots of particular fits around this principle. 2- Nope. ABs are good as they are, even if a bit too slow, they can't be cut off by a point. MWDs have significant fitting and capacitor penalty. 3- This has been done already. 4- Maybe for the Svipul only, but it would kill its Arty version. 5- That's a destroyer class ship. It is MEANT to deal damage. 6- What ? If the issue comes out when you compare T3Ds to AFs, the issue are the AFs, not the T3Ds. Why ? Because AFs were ALREADY not that good before T3Ds were introduced. And honestly i've flown each T3Ds (at my level), and i could only see the Svipul standing over the others, by far du to its 'wide' fitting capacity. 2 - i said modes not prop mods, i.e. def/prop/sharpshooter modes. 3- they barely touched them 4- depends perhaps a little on 1 but its well noted just how strong their pg is. 5 - a hecate doing 750dps OH is sooo OP, and why should they get such a OP bonus for nothing anyway its bad design 6 - T2 resists should be exclusive too T2 , T3 T1 and navy should all have the base resists only. Harvey, are you the old CCP? Do you know of any other method of balancing other than nerfing something into oblivion? I see your posts, and for every topic its a list of nerfs everytime. A hecate is not OP, id actually say its one of the better balanced t3d. The dps it can shoot is only good to about 2-5km unless you go into sharpshooter mode. Ive killed hecates in ac nados, kiting them at 7-10km and ruining them. Hecates are slow as hell, put a web or two on them, get around 7-10km and get a KM. Even easier if youre in a bigger ship with neuts. Please look at the other numbers in eft besides dps, and you will see the hecate is well balanced. Svipul mainly needs either a bigger sig or slower base speed or speed bonus from prop mode there are lots of OP things in eve that need nerfing FACT, i just point them out like other people do, i have done threads about buffing various things from time too time and in various threads, but people do tend too focus on things that effect them and them ONLY, which as we know doesn't lend itself too a balanced state of affairs.
The difference is you haven't a clue what you're talking about and you're nearly always wrong.
Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war:
The sinews of war; infinite money.
|
Azazel The Misanthrope
Proioxis Assault Force Exodus.
86
|
Posted - 2015.10.14 21:02:11 -
[109] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=447224 |
Azazel The Misanthrope
Proioxis Assault Force Exodus.
91
|
Posted - 2015.10.14 23:18:57 -
[110] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:at stitch
actually fozzie accepted the point about rockets/HAM's range as performing too well, i have offered various options too change them and some buffs too their weaker dps and ive even mentioned about the exp radius being too good on some of the small missiles aswell, i haven't been the only one who has mentioned them though.
I will admit that rockets are by far one of the most effective small based weapon platforms, missile disruptors could see a change in that though.
|
|
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1215
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 01:40:08 -
[111] - Quote
Ray P wrote:Harvey James wrote:at stitch
actually fozzie accepted the point about rockets/HAM's range as performing too well. Rubbish
oh you've so disproved what i said, oh wait...
T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely.
ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats
Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
135
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 05:38:07 -
[112] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Important information from the focus group so far:
I'll start us off with one tidbit that we've already decided on (so that it doesn't derail other discussion): We plan on reducing Tactical Destroyer insurance payouts to T2 levels (30% of current payout) in the December release.
As mentioned in the latest CSM summit minutes, we are also planning on removing Tactical Destroyers from Small FW complexes. that kind of suggests you're going too barely touch them, when we all know they need as big a nerf bat as T3 cruisers do.
I'm just glad your name wasn't on that list.
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
135
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 06:17:53 -
[113] - Quote
Dmitry Kuvora wrote:the biggest problem with t3d is off grid links, they are too cheap and powerfull when have sig and rep bonuses something like that(cost just 150mil): https://zkillboard.com/kill/49289380/ under 2 webs, can tank cerberus and rapier, both with faction EM rapid missiles i think: 1) svipul and confessor should be forced to fit mwd 2) t3d hull price around 80mil 3) and maybe some signature increase 4) fix insta warp trick sry for english
Disqualified!! |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
135
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 06:19:31 -
[114] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Important information from the focus group so far:
I'll start us off with one tidbit that we've already decided on (so that it doesn't derail other discussion): We plan on reducing Tactical Destroyer insurance payouts to T2 levels (30% of current payout) in the December release.
As mentioned in the latest CSM summit minutes, we are also planning on removing Tactical Destroyers from Small FW complexes.
Should I start requesting my SP reimbursement now or after they've been obliterated?
|
Segraina Skyblazer
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 06:34:17 -
[115] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Rek Seven wrote:OMG destroyers are good at killing frigates? NEEEERF My jackdaw made a prophecy run away.
The fact that it was able to run away means you failed, right?
|
Segraina Skyblazer
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 06:38:14 -
[116] - Quote
Luscius Uta wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Important information from the focus group so far:. Supported. Would you also consider buffing Assault Frigates to make them less inferior to T3Ds? Maybe add them some unique role, like +1 or +2 bonus to warp disruption strength, so they can catch stabbed plexers more easily. Another thing that I object to T3Ds is that they are super-fast to train into. Even adding few more short skills as a prerequisite - like Mechanics V, Navigation V and Gunnery V (or Missile Launcher Operation V for Jackdaw) - would be a step forward.
Why? TD3s are supposed to be superior to AFs.
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
135
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 06:52:06 -
[117] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:suggestions
- make all prop mods size specific - nerf all modes a little - nerf all base stats a little - nerf fittings a little - remove 50% damage role bonus - remove T2 resists
so the end result should mean they cant outperform any T2 ships like AF's etc at what they do best but they will still have the adaptability and generalisation that is meant too be the point rather than having stronger than T2 power on top of the T3 design
Just please delete yourself from this forum. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
135
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 07:03:51 -
[118] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Bienator II wrote:i don't quite see how t3ds are in any way related to AFs, because before t3ds we flew interdictors if we wanted something solid and also can enter small plexes. People who used to use AFs now use T3s. There are only a few edge cases where it is worth using an AF over a T3. Also AFs would be dangerous to a T3 if they were half decent as they counter one of the main advantages of the T3 which is its low signature. So once AFs are in a good place that will naturally balance T3s in the overall meta.
This would be the best thing for CCP to do. Rebalance the AFs first, review, then make further adjustments to the AFs, and then finally the TD3s.
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
135
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 07:13:57 -
[119] - Quote
d0cTeR9 wrote:Reminds me of the linked svipul that tanked a AF and a RHML raven with web/points/painters on the svipul... and a heavy neut.
Good to see CCP want to fix t3 dessies!
Just means the Svipul pilot was highly skilled (probably passive tanked) and the assailants not so, your point is??
|
Ares Desideratus
Minmatar Brotherhood Ushra'Khan
277
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:42:32 -
[120] - Quote
The main problem for me personally with T3Ds, is that I have flown the Confessor a lot and it totally outshines pretty much the entire frigate line-up of laser ships. Even pirate frigates like the Succubus, is totally overshadowed by the Confessor. The entire advantage of flying a Succubus, is that you can reach relatively high speeds with an AB which is great for range control and speed tanking, yet the Confessor can easily fit a 10mn AB and go faster than a Succubus with far better tank, damage and range (including the ability to switch modes). The Confessor is also significantly cheaper and so there is very little reason to fly a Succubus when you could fly a Confessor.
So not only are they great at killing frigates, but they actually make better frigates themselves in a lot of cases, especially if you compared them to the combat frigates like AFs and pirate frigs, and they can even align as fast as Interceptors, say what? PLUS they got the damage, tank and especially mobility to still be competitive with cruiser sized ships.
Overall T3Ds were a terrible idea in the first place. Its kind of mind blowing that such a bad ship design actually made it into the game. Were stuck with them now, but at least its been fun. Im sure everything will turn out OK anyway |
|
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1216
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 19:53:31 -
[121] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:The main problem for me personally with T3Ds, is that I have flown the Confessor a lot and it totally outshines pretty much the entire frigate line-up of laser ships. Even pirate frigates like the Succubus, is totally overshadowed by the Confessor. The entire advantage of flying a Succubus, is that you can reach relatively high speeds with an AB which is great for range control and speed tanking, yet the Confessor can easily fit a 10mn AB and go faster than a Succubus with far better tank, damage and range (including the ability to switch modes). The Confessor is also significantly cheaper and so there is very little reason to fly a Succubus when you could fly a Confessor.
So not only are they great at killing frigates, but they actually make better frigates themselves in a lot of cases, especially if you compared them to the combat frigates like AFs and pirate frigs, and they can even align as fast as Interceptors, say what? PLUS they got the damage, tank and especially mobility to still be competitive with cruiser sized ships.
Overall T3Ds were a terrible idea in the first place. Its kind of mind blowing that such a bad ship design actually made it into the game. Were stuck with them now, but at least its been fun. Im sure everything will turn out OK anyway
i agree with most of that besides the 'im sure everything will turn out OK' part considering how many times they have released things that get multiple tweaks or none at all and still remain horribly broken, whilst CCP pretend too have learn't from their mistakes.
T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely.
ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats
Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
|
Ares Desideratus
Minmatar Brotherhood Ushra'Khan
278
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:29:14 -
[122] - Quote
Thats a good point, actually you have to wonder if CCP really care about balance, or if the entire idea is just to keep things going up and down like a roller coaster, in order to keep the game interesting. The buffs and nerfs in this game are insane if you look at the progression. I mean, battlecruisers just got nerfed not even that long ago, I cant remember it might have been like two or three years, not sure though, and cruisers got buffed and now battlecruisers have been buffed again, in the meantime CCP managed to find time to release an entire new class of ship almost without reference to the entire rest of the game that became OP, got nerfed, and still need a focus group because they are still problematic. Havent even mentioned the plenty of other broken ships, either overpowered or underpowered, that have been nerfed or buffed in recentish times, or that have simply been introduced to purposely break the game (why else did they create the Orthrus?)
Im not hating. I love this game, even as it is, it is possibly the most extraordinary virtual world in existence. But, I cannot hide what I have observed. I probably just cant fathom all of the complexity and intricacy of balance in a game such as this. But I know for sure that T3Ds were just a dumb idea. Like, period.
I should also say though, I dont think nerfing T3D resists is a very good idea. It makes sense that they should be able to have at least as good resists as T2, when in defense mode. Anything less than T2 resists in defense mode would just not compute, for real. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1216
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:50:46 -
[123] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:Thats a good point, actually you have to wonder if CCP really care about balance, or if the entire idea is just to keep things going up and down like a roller coaster, in order to keep the game interesting. The buffs and nerfs in this game are insane if you look at the progression. I mean, battlecruisers just got nerfed not even that long ago, I cant remember it might have been like two or three years, not sure though, and cruisers got buffed and now battlecruisers have been buffed again, in the meantime CCP managed to find time to release an entire new class of ship almost without reference to the entire rest of the game that became OP, got nerfed, and still need a focus group because they are still problematic. Havent even mentioned the plenty of other broken ships, either overpowered or underpowered, that have been nerfed or buffed in recentish times, or that have simply been introduced to purposely break the game (why else did they create the Orthrus?)
Im not hating. I love this game, even as it is, it is possibly the most extraordinary virtual world in existence. But, I cannot hide what I have observed. I probably just cant fathom all of the complexity and intricacy of balance in a game such as this. But I know for sure that T3Ds were just a dumb idea. Like, period.
I should also say though, I dont think nerfing T3D resists is a very good idea. It makes sense that they should be able to have at least as good resists as T2, when in defense mode. Anything less than T2 resists in defense mode would just not compute, for real.
im still amazed that T3 cruisers haven't been fixed, THE most broken things in the game got a minor tweak and thats it, i also recall them saying they wouldn't add new T3 stuff until they fixed those first, but on the resists i think clarity is important aswell as clear distinctions in the tech levels, T2 resists should be unique too T2 as a distinct advantage too them alone T3's should be clearly about versatility being able too do different things at a good level rather than multiple things at an OP level.
T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely.
ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats
Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
|
W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
378
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:48:56 -
[124] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:Thats a good point, actually you have to wonder if CCP really care about balance, or if the entire idea is just to keep things going up and down like a roller coaster, in order to keep the game interesting. The buffs and nerfs in this game are insane if you look at the progression. I mean, battlecruisers just got nerfed not even that long ago, I cant remember it might have been like two or three years, not sure though, and cruisers got buffed and now battlecruisers have been buffed again, in the meantime CCP managed to find time to release an entire new class of ship almost without reference to the entire rest of the game that became OP, got nerfed, and still need a focus group because they are still problematic. Havent even mentioned the plenty of other broken ships, either overpowered or underpowered, that have been nerfed or buffed in recentish times, or that have simply been introduced to purposely break the game (why else did they create the Orthrus?)
Im not hating. I love this game, even as it is, it is possibly the most extraordinary virtual world in existence. But, I cannot hide what I have observed. I probably just cant fathom all of the complexity and intricacy of balance in a game such as this. But I know for sure that T3Ds were just a dumb idea. Like, period.
I should also say though, I dont think nerfing T3D resists is a very good idea. It makes sense that they should be able to have at least as good resists as T2, when in defense mode. Anything less than T2 resists in defense mode would just not compute, for real. im still amazed that T3 cruisers haven't been fixed, THE most broken things in the game got a minor tweak and thats it, i also recall them saying they wouldn't add new T3 stuff until they fixed those first, but on the resists i think clarity is important aswell as clear distinctions in the tech levels, T2 resists should be unique too T2 as a distinct advantage too them alone T3's should be clearly about versatility being able too do different things at a good level rather than multiple things at an OP level.
How are t3s broken in any form? If anything they are fairly weak at the moment. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1216
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:05:36 -
[125] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Harvey James wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:Thats a good point, actually you have to wonder if CCP really care about balance, or if the entire idea is just to keep things going up and down like a roller coaster, in order to keep the game interesting. The buffs and nerfs in this game are insane if you look at the progression. I mean, battlecruisers just got nerfed not even that long ago, I cant remember it might have been like two or three years, not sure though, and cruisers got buffed and now battlecruisers have been buffed again, in the meantime CCP managed to find time to release an entire new class of ship almost without reference to the entire rest of the game that became OP, got nerfed, and still need a focus group because they are still problematic. Havent even mentioned the plenty of other broken ships, either overpowered or underpowered, that have been nerfed or buffed in recentish times, or that have simply been introduced to purposely break the game (why else did they create the Orthrus?)
Im not hating. I love this game, even as it is, it is possibly the most extraordinary virtual world in existence. But, I cannot hide what I have observed. I probably just cant fathom all of the complexity and intricacy of balance in a game such as this. But I know for sure that T3Ds were just a dumb idea. Like, period.
I should also say though, I dont think nerfing T3D resists is a very good idea. It makes sense that they should be able to have at least as good resists as T2, when in defense mode. Anything less than T2 resists in defense mode would just not compute, for real. im still amazed that T3 cruisers haven't been fixed, THE most broken things in the game got a minor tweak and thats it, i also recall them saying they wouldn't add new T3 stuff until they fixed those first, but on the resists i think clarity is important aswell as clear distinctions in the tech levels, T2 resists should be unique too T2 as a distinct advantage too them alone T3's should be clearly about versatility being able too do different things at a good level rather than multiple things at an OP level. How are t3s broken in any form? If anything they are fairly weak at the moment.
WTF!! are you on??
T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely.
ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats
Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
|
Ares Desideratus
Minmatar Brotherhood Ushra'Khan
279
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:02:14 -
[126] - Quote
I think he meant T3 cruisers, maybe. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
136
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:09:12 -
[127] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:W0lf Crendraven wrote:Harvey James wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:Thats a good point, actually you have to wonder if CCP really care about balance, or if the entire idea is just to keep things going up and down like a roller coaster, in order to keep the game interesting. The buffs and nerfs in this game are insane if you look at the progression. I mean, battlecruisers just got nerfed not even that long ago, I cant remember it might have been like two or three years, not sure though, and cruisers got buffed and now battlecruisers have been buffed again, in the meantime CCP managed to find time to release an entire new class of ship almost without reference to the entire rest of the game that became OP, got nerfed, and still need a focus group because they are still problematic. Havent even mentioned the plenty of other broken ships, either overpowered or underpowered, that have been nerfed or buffed in recentish times, or that have simply been introduced to purposely break the game (why else did they create the Orthrus?)
Im not hating. I love this game, even as it is, it is possibly the most extraordinary virtual world in existence. But, I cannot hide what I have observed. I probably just cant fathom all of the complexity and intricacy of balance in a game such as this. But I know for sure that T3Ds were just a dumb idea. Like, period.
I should also say though, I dont think nerfing T3D resists is a very good idea. It makes sense that they should be able to have at least as good resists as T2, when in defense mode. Anything less than T2 resists in defense mode would just not compute, for real. im still amazed that T3 cruisers haven't been fixed, THE most broken things in the game got a minor tweak and thats it, i also recall them saying they wouldn't add new T3 stuff until they fixed those first, but on the resists i think clarity is important aswell as clear distinctions in the tech levels, T2 resists should be unique too T2 as a distinct advantage too them alone T3's should be clearly about versatility being able too do different things at a good level rather than multiple things at an OP level. How are t3s broken in any form? If anything they are fairly weak at the moment. WTF!! are you on??
Eve would've died a loooong time ago if someone like you was on the development staff. All the posts you spout is full of absurdity. Hopefully Fozzie is wise enough to just flat out omit any rubbish you post.
|
W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
378
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:28:15 -
[128] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:W0lf Crendraven wrote:Harvey James wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:Thats a good point, actually you have to wonder if CCP really care about balance, or if the entire idea is just to keep things going up and down like a roller coaster, in order to keep the game interesting. The buffs and nerfs in this game are insane if you look at the progression. I mean, battlecruisers just got nerfed not even that long ago, I cant remember it might have been like two or three years, not sure though, and cruisers got buffed and now battlecruisers have been buffed again, in the meantime CCP managed to find time to release an entire new class of ship almost without reference to the entire rest of the game that became OP, got nerfed, and still need a focus group because they are still problematic. Havent even mentioned the plenty of other broken ships, either overpowered or underpowered, that have been nerfed or buffed in recentish times, or that have simply been introduced to purposely break the game (why else did they create the Orthrus?)
Im not hating. I love this game, even as it is, it is possibly the most extraordinary virtual world in existence. But, I cannot hide what I have observed. I probably just cant fathom all of the complexity and intricacy of balance in a game such as this. But I know for sure that T3Ds were just a dumb idea. Like, period.
I should also say though, I dont think nerfing T3D resists is a very good idea. It makes sense that they should be able to have at least as good resists as T2, when in defense mode. Anything less than T2 resists in defense mode would just not compute, for real. im still amazed that T3 cruisers haven't been fixed, THE most broken things in the game got a minor tweak and thats it, i also recall them saying they wouldn't add new T3 stuff until they fixed those first, but on the resists i think clarity is important aswell as clear distinctions in the tech levels, T2 resists should be unique too T2 as a distinct advantage too them alone T3's should be clearly about versatility being able too do different things at a good level rather than multiple things at an OP level. How are t3s broken in any form? If anything they are fairly weak at the moment. WTF!! are you on??
t3 cruisers are fairly weak right now |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1216
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 16:49:29 -
[129] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Harvey James wrote:W0lf Crendraven wrote:Harvey James wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:Thats a good point, actually you have to wonder if CCP really care about balance, or if the entire idea is just to keep things going up and down like a roller coaster, in order to keep the game interesting. The buffs and nerfs in this game are insane if you look at the progression. I mean, battlecruisers just got nerfed not even that long ago, I cant remember it might have been like two or three years, not sure though, and cruisers got buffed and now battlecruisers have been buffed again, in the meantime CCP managed to find time to release an entire new class of ship almost without reference to the entire rest of the game that became OP, got nerfed, and still need a focus group because they are still problematic. Havent even mentioned the plenty of other broken ships, either overpowered or underpowered, that have been nerfed or buffed in recentish times, or that have simply been introduced to purposely break the game (why else did they create the Orthrus?)
Im not hating. I love this game, even as it is, it is possibly the most extraordinary virtual world in existence. But, I cannot hide what I have observed. I probably just cant fathom all of the complexity and intricacy of balance in a game such as this. But I know for sure that T3Ds were just a dumb idea. Like, period.
I should also say though, I dont think nerfing T3D resists is a very good idea. It makes sense that they should be able to have at least as good resists as T2, when in defense mode. Anything less than T2 resists in defense mode would just not compute, for real. im still amazed that T3 cruisers haven't been fixed, THE most broken things in the game got a minor tweak and thats it, i also recall them saying they wouldn't add new T3 stuff until they fixed those first, but on the resists i think clarity is important aswell as clear distinctions in the tech levels, T2 resists should be unique too T2 as a distinct advantage too them alone T3's should be clearly about versatility being able too do different things at a good level rather than multiple things at an OP level. How are t3s broken in any form? If anything they are fairly weak at the moment. WTF!! are you on?? t3 cruisers are fairly weak right now
WOW!!!.. the battleship tank and dps on a cruiser hull is soooooo...... weak..
T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely.
ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats
Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
|
W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
378
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 17:55:21 -
[130] - Quote
Yes, given the price. And those fits arent even really good, a tank/blaster proteus is basicely a ******, more expensive cs and in the "real" meta (i.e not only giant blobs) the proteus, which is the only one that really fits that "cruisers that is as good as a bs thing" is totally crap. Any real bs is better and cheaper for that role.
The only place where a cheaper faction cruiser isnt just straight up better (orthrus>tengu, gila>proteus, nomen>legion, and all their recon versions are just way way way better then t3s in non blobs) are really big fleets, and even here they kind of suck, simply because they are really expensive. You can buy 1.5 rattlesnakes for the price of 1 proteus or 1 machariel. And you lose sp if you die in one.
And its not like t3s take a recons spot in big fleets either, if t3s as such were gone you wouldnt get a ton of recons suddenly, as they still would die instantly and be worthless there (which is good, considering how op they are elsewhere) |
|
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
28
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 21:01:13 -
[131] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:The main problem for me personally with T3Ds, is that I have flown the Confessor a lot and it totally outshines pretty much the entire frigate line-up of laser ships. Even pirate frigates like the Succubus, is totally overshadowed by the Confessor. The entire advantage of flying a Succubus, is that you can reach relatively high speeds with an AB which is great for range control and speed tanking, yet the Confessor can easily fit a 10mn AB and go faster than a Succubus with far better tank, damage and range (including the ability to switch modes). The Confessor is also significantly cheaper and so there is very little reason to fly a Succubus when you could fly a Confessor.
So not only are they great at killing frigates, but they actually make better frigates themselves in a lot of cases, especially if you compared them to the combat frigates like AFs and pirate frigs, and they can even align as fast as Interceptors, say what? PLUS they got the damage, tank and especially mobility to still be competitive with cruiser sized ships.
Overall T3Ds were a terrible idea in the first place. Its kind of mind blowing that such a bad ship design actually made it into the game. Were stuck with them now, but at least its been fun. Im sure everything will turn out OK anyway
It's a freaking destroyer, it's supposed to outshine all the frigs rofl, no frig should have any business going up against a destroyer period. You're whole post is just plain bad.
Edit to fix typos |
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
28
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 21:04:55 -
[132] - Quote
Also y'all stop derailing the thread it's focus is t3d's, you want to talk about cruisers and such there are other threads for that. |
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
600
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 21:38:31 -
[133] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:The main problem for me personally with T3Ds, is that I have flown the Confessor a lot and it totally outshines pretty much the entire frigate line-up of laser ships. Even pirate frigates like the Succubus, is totally overshadowed by the Confessor. The entire advantage of flying a Succubus, is that you can reach relatively high speeds with an AB which is great for range control and speed tanking, yet the Confessor can easily fit a 10mn AB and go faster than a Succubus with far better tank, damage and range (including the ability to switch modes). The Confessor is also significantly cheaper and so there is very little reason to fly a Succubus when you could fly a Confessor.
So not only are they great at killing frigates, but they actually make better frigates themselves in a lot of cases, especially if you compared them to the combat frigates like AFs and pirate frigs, and they can even align as fast as Interceptors, say what? PLUS they got the damage, tank and especially mobility to still be competitive with cruiser sized ships.
Overall T3Ds were a terrible idea in the first place. Its kind of mind blowing that such a bad ship design actually made it into the game. Were stuck with them now, but at least its been fun. Im sure everything will turn out OK anyway It's a freaking destroyer, it's supposed to outshine all the frigs rofl, no frig should have any business going up against a destroyer period. You're whole post is just plain bad. Edit to fix typos
The fact destroyers are killed fairly frequently by t1 and t2 frigs beg to differ. Ive killed plenty of thrashers in my jag to say youre wrong. Yes destroyers should kill frigs, but they should not obsolete an entire class of frigates.
I could take apart a thrasher/catalyst/coercer etc with an arty jag. Or even a breacher. There is no way for me to kill a svipul, fessor, hecate, jackdaw who has a clue how to fit with an AF or t1 frig. Skill at flying/fitting should determine a fight, not "i need to bring a battlecruiser or neut vexor to break this destroyer's tank".
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
|
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
28
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 21:48:47 -
[134] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:Leonardo Adami wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:The main problem for me personally with T3Ds, is that I have flown the Confessor a lot and it totally outshines pretty much the entire frigate line-up of laser ships. Even pirate frigates like the Succubus, is totally overshadowed by the Confessor. The entire advantage of flying a Succubus, is that you can reach relatively high speeds with an AB which is great for range control and speed tanking, yet the Confessor can easily fit a 10mn AB and go faster than a Succubus with far better tank, damage and range (including the ability to switch modes). The Confessor is also significantly cheaper and so there is very little reason to fly a Succubus when you could fly a Confessor.
So not only are they great at killing frigates, but they actually make better frigates themselves in a lot of cases, especially if you compared them to the combat frigates like AFs and pirate frigs, and they can even align as fast as Interceptors, say what? PLUS they got the damage, tank and especially mobility to still be competitive with cruiser sized ships.
Overall T3Ds were a terrible idea in the first place. Its kind of mind blowing that such a bad ship design actually made it into the game. Were stuck with them now, but at least its been fun. Im sure everything will turn out OK anyway It's a freaking destroyer, it's supposed to outshine all the frigs rofl, no frig should have any business going up against a destroyer period. You're whole post is just plain bad. Edit to fix typos The fact destroyers are killed fairly frequently by t1 and t2 frigs beg to differ. Ive killed plenty of thrashers in my jag to say youre wrong. Yes destroyers should kill frigs, but they should not obsolete an entire class of frigates. I could take apart a thrasher/catalyst/coercer etc with an arty jag. Or even a breacher. There is no way for me to kill a svipul, fessor, hecate, jackdaw who has a clue how to fit with an AF or t1 frig. Skill at flying/fitting should determine a fight, not "i need to bring a battlecruiser or neut vexor to break this destroyer's tank".
If your killing destroyers in frigs that's a pilot problem not ship problem, they're different. |
Arla Sarain
675
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:51:46 -
[135] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:The main problem for me personally with T3Ds, is that I have flown the Confessor a lot and it totally outshines pretty much the entire frigate line-up of laser ships. Even pirate frigates like the Succubus, is totally overshadowed by the Confessor. The entire advantage of flying a Succubus, is that you can reach relatively high speeds with an AB which is great for range control and speed tanking, yet the Confessor can easily fit a 10mn AB and go faster than a Succubus with far better tank, damage and range (including the ability to switch modes). The Confessor is also significantly cheaper and so there is very little reason to fly a Succubus when you could fly a Confessor.
So not only are they great at killing frigates, but they actually make better frigates themselves in a lot of cases, especially if you compared them to the combat frigates like AFs and pirate frigs, and they can even align as fast as Interceptors, say what? PLUS they got the damage, tank and especially mobility to still be competitive with cruiser sized ships.
Overall T3Ds were a terrible idea in the first place. Its kind of mind blowing that such a bad ship design actually made it into the game. Were stuck with them now, but at least its been fun. Im sure everything will turn out OK anyway It's a freaking destroyer, it's supposed to outshine all the frigs rofl, no frig should have any business going up against a destroyer period. You're whole post is just plain bad. Edit to fix typos The point is not that frigs are dying when going against T3Ds. There is no reason to fly AFs over T3Ds and in some cases no reason to fly interceptors outside of their anti-bubble trait because that's how tanky and fast T3Ds are. |
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
601
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 03:30:50 -
[136] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote:Stitch Kaneland wrote:Leonardo Adami wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:The main problem for me personally with T3Ds, is that I have flown the Confessor a lot and it totally outshines pretty much the entire frigate line-up of laser ships. Even pirate frigates like the Succubus, is totally overshadowed by the Confessor. The entire advantage of flying a Succubus, is that you can reach relatively high speeds with an AB which is great for range control and speed tanking, yet the Confessor can easily fit a 10mn AB and go faster than a Succubus with far better tank, damage and range (including the ability to switch modes). The Confessor is also significantly cheaper and so there is very little reason to fly a Succubus when you could fly a Confessor.
So not only are they great at killing frigates, but they actually make better frigates themselves in a lot of cases, especially if you compared them to the combat frigates like AFs and pirate frigs, and they can even align as fast as Interceptors, say what? PLUS they got the damage, tank and especially mobility to still be competitive with cruiser sized ships.
Overall T3Ds were a terrible idea in the first place. Its kind of mind blowing that such a bad ship design actually made it into the game. Were stuck with them now, but at least its been fun. Im sure everything will turn out OK anyway It's a freaking destroyer, it's supposed to outshine all the frigs rofl, no frig should have any business going up against a destroyer period. You're whole post is just plain bad. Edit to fix typos The fact destroyers are killed fairly frequently by t1 and t2 frigs beg to differ. Ive killed plenty of thrashers in my jag to say youre wrong. Yes destroyers should kill frigs, but they should not obsolete an entire class of frigates. I could take apart a thrasher/catalyst/coercer etc with an arty jag. Or even a breacher. There is no way for me to kill a svipul, fessor, hecate, jackdaw who has a clue how to fit with an AF or t1 frig. Skill at flying/fitting should determine a fight, not "i need to bring a battlecruiser or neut vexor to break this destroyer's tank". If your killing destroyers in frigs that's a pilot problem not ship problem, they're different.
No, its balance.
Autocannons don't project worth a damn on a thrasher out at the edge of scram range. So I can use arty jag to project more dps at edge of scram range than him. Arty thrasher, you can normally get under their guns and kill them that way, assuming you can dodge the first volley.
So it just depends on how you're fit, and the skill of the pilot. T3D however do not have any limitation. You can have cruiser levels of tank, projection, speed and dps. Even if i scram kited an a/c svipul, he still has so much tank, his pitiful barrage a/c dps might break me before i break him. An arty svipul is faster than an arty jag/wolf and projects better with an actual tank.
There is 0 reason to use a jaguar or wolf over a svipul. That is the main issue, not just that a destroyer is killing frigs.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
|
Feyrin
Star Frontiers Brotherhood of Spacers
46
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 09:51:46 -
[137] - Quote
I would argue however that this is an issue with Assault Frigates not having a defined role other than moderately tanky, slow dps frigate. A feel a new role is require for assault frigates rather than trying to nerf T3 destroyers down to a level where AF's are competitive in the same role. |
W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
378
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 15:58:51 -
[138] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:Leonardo Adami wrote:Stitch Kaneland wrote:Leonardo Adami wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:The main problem for me personally with T3Ds, is that I have flown the Confessor a lot and it totally outshines pretty much the entire frigate line-up of laser ships. Even pirate frigates like the Succubus, is totally overshadowed by the Confessor. The entire advantage of flying a Succubus, is that you can reach relatively high speeds with an AB which is great for range control and speed tanking, yet the Confessor can easily fit a 10mn AB and go faster than a Succubus with far better tank, damage and range (including the ability to switch modes). The Confessor is also significantly cheaper and so there is very little reason to fly a Succubus when you could fly a Confessor.
So not only are they great at killing frigates, but they actually make better frigates themselves in a lot of cases, especially if you compared them to the combat frigates like AFs and pirate frigs, and they can even align as fast as Interceptors, say what? PLUS they got the damage, tank and especially mobility to still be competitive with cruiser sized ships.
Overall T3Ds were a terrible idea in the first place. Its kind of mind blowing that such a bad ship design actually made it into the game. Were stuck with them now, but at least its been fun. Im sure everything will turn out OK anyway It's a freaking destroyer, it's supposed to outshine all the frigs rofl, no frig should have any business going up against a destroyer period. You're whole post is just plain bad. Edit to fix typos The fact destroyers are killed fairly frequently by t1 and t2 frigs beg to differ. Ive killed plenty of thrashers in my jag to say youre wrong. Yes destroyers should kill frigs, but they should not obsolete an entire class of frigates. I could take apart a thrasher/catalyst/coercer etc with an arty jag. Or even a breacher. There is no way for me to kill a svipul, fessor, hecate, jackdaw who has a clue how to fit with an AF or t1 frig. Skill at flying/fitting should determine a fight, not "i need to bring a battlecruiser or neut vexor to break this destroyer's tank". If your killing destroyers in frigs that's a pilot problem not ship problem, they're different. No, its balance. Autocannons don't project worth a damn on a thrasher out at the edge of scram range. So I can use arty jag to project more dps at edge of scram range than him. Arty thrasher, you can normally get under their guns and kill them that way, assuming you can dodge the first volley. So it just depends on how you're fit, and the skill of the pilot. T3D however do not have any limitation. You can have cruiser levels of tank, projection, speed and dps. Even if i scram kited an a/c svipul, he still has so much tank, his pitiful barrage a/c dps might break me before i break him. An arty svipul is faster than an arty jag/wolf and projects better with an actual tank. There is 0 reason to use a jaguar or wolf over a svipul. That is the main issue, not just that a destroyer is killing frigs.
A Thrasher has literally 100% the same range as a jag, both have a 50% optimal bonus.
|
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
602
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 17:22:07 -
[139] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
A Thrasher has literally 100% the same range as a jag, both have a 50% optimal bonus.
I'm not sure why you mention that as a point.. but ok, i'm aware of their bonuses.
The optimal bonus doesn't do anything significant for autocannons, hence the fact you can scram kite an a/c thrasher with an arty jag. As the jaguar is using the bonus properly with artillery and can mitigate 50% of the thrashers dps (assuming the thrasher is smart and using barrage).
I'm responding to him saying that any destroyer fit can kill any frigate, and if a destroyer dies to a frigate, then its the pilots fault. Which is simply not true if the frigate pilot knows what he is doing.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
|
Ares Desideratus
Minmatar Brotherhood Ushra'Khan
280
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 17:56:16 -
[140] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote:
It's a freaking destroyer, it's supposed to outshine all the frigs rofl, no frig should have any business going up against a destroyer period. You're whole post is just plain bad.
Edit to fix typos
Actually I don't have a problem with destroyers beating frigates. Destroyers should be able to murder frigates generally speaking. But the T3Ds are so much better than frigates in every practical sense that they completely obsolete them, they aren't just better in a straight up fight, they're better in virtually any situation. Aside from aesthetics and personal preferences, there is no reason to fly a Jag, Wolf, or Dramiel when you could fly a Svipul. It outshines them all in practically any role. Same goes for the Confessor overshadowing ships like the Succubus and Retribution. Not only does it have vastly superior tank and gank numbers, but the Confessor is actually faster and more agile than a Retribution, and with a 10mn AB fit, it outshines the Succubus in the Succubus's own role, which is going super fast with an AB. No reason to fly an AB Succubus when you could fly a 10mn AB Confessor, it has better tank, so much more damage, more versatility and range, etc. |
|
W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
382
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:03:37 -
[141] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:W0lf Crendraven wrote:
A Thrasher has literally 100% the same range as a jag, both have a 50% optimal bonus.
I'm not sure why you mention that as a point.. but ok, i'm aware of their bonuses. The optimal bonus doesn't do anything significant for autocannons, hence the fact you can scram kite an a/c thrasher with an arty jag. As the jaguar is using the bonus properly with artillery and can mitigate 50% of the thrashers dps (assuming the thrasher is smart and using barrage). I'm responding to him saying that any destroyer fit can kill any frigate, and if a destroyer dies to a frigate, then its the pilots fault. Which is simply not true if the frigate pilot knows what he is doing.
Ah yes, by bad. Didnt really read your post, (cause obviously a af can win vs dessie and the other way around) and just saw the acs dont project on a thrasher. So my bad. |
Justin Cody
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
315
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 00:56:24 -
[142] - Quote
t3d's obsoleted assault frigates in that they took over their role for everything except maybe niche case harpies and some FW plex fights.
However, I love them. #LeaveBrittanyAlone |
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
38
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 01:06:18 -
[143] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:Leonardo Adami wrote:
It's a freaking destroyer, it's supposed to outshine all the frigs rofl, no frig should have any business going up against a destroyer period. You're whole post is just plain bad.
Edit to fix typos
Actually I don't have a problem with destroyers beating frigates. Destroyers should be able to murder frigates generally speaking. But the T3Ds are so much better than frigates in every practical sense that they completely obsolete them, they aren't just better in a straight up fight, they're better in virtually any situation. Aside from aesthetics and personal preferences, there is no reason to fly a Jag, Wolf, or Dramiel when you could fly a Svipul. It outshines them all in practically any role. Same goes for the Confessor overshadowing ships like the Succubus and Retribution. Not only does it have vastly superior tank and gank numbers, but the Confessor is actually faster and more agile than a Retribution, and with a 10mn AB fit, it outshines the Succubus in the Succubus's own role, which is going super fast with an AB. No reason to fly an AB Succubus when you could fly a 10mn AB Confessor, it has better tank, so much more damage, more versatility and range, etc. j
Basically you're saying the minmatar ships suck and I agree. Svipul is grossly OP, don't deny that and have stated many times it's the case. I've also stated confessor shouldn't be allowed to use 10mn ab. But that post I quoted was and is bad . And I stand by my previous statement(s). I also feel all AF's need to be looked at before they balance the T3D's because as it stands they're all pretty much crap and they were this way pre t3d's it's just blatantly obvious to even the most obtuse of individuals now.
While I'm here I'll say the Hecate is very well balanced imo and the jackdaw has to much tank and not enough dps.
|
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
137
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 08:40:47 -
[144] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:The main problem for me personally with T3Ds, is that I have flown the Confessor a lot and it totally outshines pretty much the entire frigate line-up of laser ships. Even pirate frigates like the Succubus, is totally overshadowed by the Confessor. The entire advantage of flying a Succubus, is that you can reach relatively high speeds with an AB which is great for range control and speed tanking, yet the Confessor can easily fit a 10mn AB and go faster than a Succubus with far better tank, damage and range (including the ability to switch modes). The Confessor is also significantly cheaper and so there is very little reason to fly a Succubus when you could fly a Confessor.
So not only are they great at killing frigates, but they actually make better frigates themselves in a lot of cases, especially if you compared them to the combat frigates like AFs and pirate frigs, and they can even align as fast as Interceptors, say what? PLUS they got the damage, tank and especially mobility to still be competitive with cruiser sized ships.
Overall T3Ds were a terrible idea in the first place. Its kind of mind blowing that such a bad ship design actually made it into the game. Were stuck with them now, but at least its been fun. Im sure everything will turn out OK anyway It's a freaking destroyer, it's supposed to outshine all the frigs rofl, no frig should have any business going up against a destroyer period. You're whole post is just plain bad. Edit to fix typos
Misguided absolute statements such as this have no business in discussion about balance.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16834
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 08:53:40 -
[145] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote:
Basically you're saying the minmatar ships suck and I agree. Svipul is grossly OP, don't deny that and have stated many times it's the case. I've also stated confessor shouldn't be allowed to use 10mn ab. But that post I quoted was and is bad . And I stand by my previous statement(s). I also feel all AF's need to be looked at before they balance the T3D's because as it stands they're all pretty much crap and they were this way pre t3d's it's just blatantly obvious to even the most obtuse of individuals now.
While I'm here I'll say the Hecate is very well balanced imo and the jackdaw has to much tank and not enough dps.
AF don't need to be buffed the 4 destroyers that are causing all of the imbalance need nerfed.
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Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
39
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 21:02:37 -
[146] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Leonardo Adami wrote:
Basically you're saying the minmatar ships suck and I agree. Svipul is grossly OP, don't deny that and have stated many times it's the case. I've also stated confessor shouldn't be allowed to use 10mn ab. But that post I quoted was and is bad . And I stand by my previous statement(s). I also feel all AF's need to be looked at before they balance the T3D's because as it stands they're all pretty much crap and they were this way pre t3d's it's just blatantly obvious to even the most obtuse of individuals now.
While I'm here I'll say the Hecate is very well balanced imo and the jackdaw has to much tank and not enough dps.
AF don't need to be buffed the 4 destroyers that are causing all of the imbalance need nerfed.
You're completely wrong in every way. AF's were rarely used before and even less so now (I agree the T3d's didn't help this one bit). They were "balanced" prior to the tiercide which was a long while ago and haven't been touched since. I know drugs in eve are good for you but no matter what anyone tells ist drugs irl are bad. Whatever drug you were on when you posted this I highly recommend you stop taking it asap.
And no the hecate does not need a nerf. The svipul needs one badly, the confessor needs to be tweaked and the jackdaw needs to be reworked so it has less tank more dps. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16838
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 07:17:21 -
[147] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote:
You're completely wrong in every way. AF's were rarely used before and even less so now
Before t3d were added assault frigates were averaging 50,000 kills a month, this has declined sharply to just 17,000. Assault frigates were one of the most popular classes of ships to fly.
Leonardo Adami wrote:
(I agree the T3d's didn't help this one bit). They were "balanced" prior to the tiercide which was a long while ago and haven't been touched since. I know drugs in eve are good for you but no matter what anyone tells ist drugs irl are bad. Whatever drug you were on when you posted this I highly recommend you stop taking it asap.
They were balanced very well vs the other ships until CCP added these vastly overpowered destroyers, hence the large number of them before the t3d arrived. You seem to have a short term memory.
Leonardo Adami wrote: And no the hecate does not need a nerf. The svipul needs one badly, the confessor needs to be tweaked and the jackdaw needs to be reworked so it has less tank more dps.
All of them need a nerf, they are simply too powerful for what they are. The should have the stats of t1 destroyers with the adaptability because there is exactly zero chance of a t1 destroyer being anything other than fodder to these ships.
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Ares Desideratus
Minmatar Brotherhood Ushra'Khan
283
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 13:11:29 -
[148] - Quote
Assault Ships were much more popular before T3Ds came, I distinctly remember around the time just before T3Ds came seeing plenty of them in all ares of space.
I think we can all agree Svipul and Confessor need nerfs. Since they're destroyers the gank abilities should stay but something should be done about their speed / signature / tank / resist combo, because they are able to fly like frigates with HAC level tank and gank (especially with 10mn fits)
Does the Jackdaw really need a nerf though? It's a good ship but does it really better than a Caracal in any role? I've seen more people using it as a sensor damp ship than actually flying it for legitimate combat.
800 dps Hecates are a thing but don't you think that is the way it should be for a ship such as this? Eris can also get 800 dps. If Hecate is to be nerfed it should be in some other ares other than it's gank ability, because that's what makes it a destroyer. But personally I don't really see the Hecate as being OP, but I also don't use it or know that much about it. |
Ares Desideratus
Minmatar Brotherhood Ushra'Khan
283
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 13:17:28 -
[149] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote:
Basically you're saying the minmatar ships suck and I agree. Svipul is grossly OP, don't deny that and have stated many times it's the case. I've also stated confessor shouldn't be allowed to use 10mn ab. But that post I quoted was and is bad . And I stand by my previous statement(s). I also feel all AF's need to be looked at before they balance the T3D's because as it stands they're all pretty much crap and they were this way pre t3d's it's just blatantly obvious to even the most obtuse of individuals now.
While I'm here I'll say the Hecate is very well balanced imo and the jackdaw has to much tank and not enough dps.
That is not really what I said at all, but yeah some Minmatar ships do suck right now, like the Jaguar. Not allowing the Confessor to use a 10mn is pretty stupid, just nerf it in such a way that 10mn fits no longer give it frigate levels of mobility and evasion. |
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
1285
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 13:39:55 -
[150] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:All of them need a nerf including the Hecate (a destroyer pumping out high end HAC damage from small guns and you don't see that as overpowered?
While you're at it, nerf the catalyst. Like, strip half its guns so it doesn't sit there as a 1mil hull pumping out 650dps. |
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SFM Hobb3s
Wrecking Shots Northern Coalition.
379
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 13:59:50 -
[151] - Quote
Irony is, jaguar and wolf are both excellent AF counters to Confessors. That EM armor resist is a serious pain to get through. When all is said and done, my preference that 10mn still remain viable for brawling fits stays. I'm happy with snipers not being able to fit them (well, I haven't found a way to decently fit a beam confessor with 10mn and have it not be crap so...).
The eve community just got a nice buff to battlecruisers, and are getting all kinds of new ewar frigs. All these things impact the lifespan of T3's in battle. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16840
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 14:16:02 -
[152] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:baltec1 wrote:All of them need a nerf including the Hecate (a destroyer pumping out high end HAC damage from small guns and you don't see that as overpowered? While you're at it, nerf the catalyst. Like, strip half its guns so it doesn't sit there as a 1mil hull pumping out 650dps.
There is a reason why nobody uses the gank cat to take on anything that can fight back.
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Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
605
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 14:26:52 -
[153] - Quote
Baltec1 wrote:
All of them need a nerf including the Hecate (a destroyer pumping out high end HAC damage from small guns and you don't see that as overpowered? ), they are simply too powerful for what they are. The should have the stats of t1 destroyers with the adaptability because there is exactly zero chance of a t1 destroyer being anything other than fodder to these ships.
*squints* Harvey.. is that you? Please stop focusing on just the dps of a t3d and take it all in.
Hecate is balanced as its incredibly slow and easy to scram kite that dps. If hecate uses sharpshooter then it sacrifices its tank bonus, which makes it considerably easier to kill. If it stays in tank mode, then it has very poor range. Then that 850dps drops quite quickly. Not to mention its very susceptible to neuts, both in max gank, dual web hull config or single/dual armor rep.
Ive killed every t3d and by far, the one that is the biggest pain in the ass is the svipul, as there is no obvious counter except neuting it to hell with dual webs to hold it. Hecates and jackdaws are easy to kill as well as both are slow with big sigs. The svipul is the main issue with t3d, all 4 dont need to suffer a nerf overhaul.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16840
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 14:46:32 -
[154] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
*squints* Harvey.. is that you? Please stop focusing on just the dps of a t3d and take it all in.
Hecate is balanced as its incredibly slow and easy to scram kite that dps. If hecate uses sharpshooter then it sacrifices its tank bonus, which makes it considerably easier to kill. If it stays in tank mode, then it has very poor range. Then that 850dps drops quite quickly. Not to mention its very susceptible to neuts, both in max gank, dual web hull config or single/dual armor rep.
Ive killed every t3d and by far, the one that is the biggest pain in the ass is the svipul, as there is no obvious counter except neuting it to hell with dual webs to hold it. Hecates and jackdaws are easy to kill as well as both are slow with big sigs. The svipul is the main issue with t3d, all 4 dont need to suffer a nerf overhaul.
I am looking at the whole package which is why I see the need for a nerf. As said, other destroyers can hit 650dps, the problem is that the Hecate doesn't need to make the sacrifices that the other destroyers have to make to get that kind of firepower. A gank catalyst cannot for example also fit a 300hp/s tank and a prop mod (that allows the Hecate to travel faster than said cat) and a cap booster and a neut while sporting 600 dps.
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Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
605
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 15:00:53 -
[155] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Stitch Kaneland wrote:
*squints* Harvey.. is that you? Please stop focusing on just the dps of a t3d and take it all in.
Hecate is balanced as its incredibly slow and easy to scram kite that dps. If hecate uses sharpshooter then it sacrifices its tank bonus, which makes it considerably easier to kill. If it stays in tank mode, then it has very poor range. Then that 850dps drops quite quickly. Not to mention its very susceptible to neuts, both in max gank, dual web hull config or single/dual armor rep.
Ive killed every t3d and by far, the one that is the biggest pain in the ass is the svipul, as there is no obvious counter except neuting it to hell with dual webs to hold it. Hecates and jackdaws are easy to kill as well as both are slow with big sigs. The svipul is the main issue with t3d, all 4 dont need to suffer a nerf overhaul.
I am looking at the whole package which is why I see the need for a nerf. As said, other destroyers can hit 650dps, the problem is that the Hecate doesn't need to make the sacrifices that the other destroyers have to make to get that kind of firepower. A gank catalyst cannot for example also fit a 300hp/s tank and a prop mod (that allows the Hecate to travel faster than said cat) and a cap booster and a neut while sporting 600 dps.
The catalyst has projection baked into the hull and doesnt need a mode switch to project that 650dps. Unlike the hecate which has to sacrifice its speed or tank to project similarly. As mentioned earlier those fits you speak of can be easily countered due to the slow speed, lack of projection and large-ish sig of the hecate.
You are looking at the whole package, but are insinuating all the bonuses are available at the same time. Which is not the case. A rail DD, arty jag, arty thrasher and other scram kite ships (if flown properly) could but a hecate in a bad position. Larger ships are even better at nuking a hecate. Especially if it has a medium neut. I see no major issues here.
And no, i have never flown a hecate, ive just killed quite a few of them. So im not trying to prevent a nerf to my favorite ship. I just think nerfing the hecate will push it into an eft warriors wet dream when all they look at is dps. Then they take it out and realize its a joke.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16840
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 15:31:40 -
[156] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
The catalyst has projection baked into the hull and doesnt need a mode switch to project that 650dps.
That nets it 2km more range, this means nothing with blaster boats.
Stitch Kaneland wrote: You are looking at the whole package, but are insinuating all the bonuses are available at the same time. Which is not the case.
All of what I put was available in defence mode aside from the much faster speed which you only need to catch the target, once you catch it you swap to defence mode.
Stitch Kaneland wrote: A rail DD, arty jag, arty thrasher and other scram kite ships (if flown properly) could but a hecate in a bad position.
Same goes for any other blaster boat.
Stitch Kaneland wrote: And no, i have never flown a hecate, ive just killed quite a few of them. So im not trying to prevent a nerf to my favorite ship. I just think nerfing the hecate will push it into an eft warriors wet dream when all they look at is dps. Then they take it out and realize its a joke.
This is the problem, you don't have to make hard choices with these ships like you do with the other destroyers. You sacrifice nothing for switching modes and the fitting room, slots and cap are all far too forgiving.
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Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
606
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 16:47:21 -
[157] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Stitch Kaneland wrote:
The catalyst has projection baked into the hull and doesnt need a mode switch to project that 650dps.
That nets it 2km more range, this means nothing with blaster boats. Stitch Kaneland wrote: You are looking at the whole package, but are insinuating all the bonuses are available at the same time. Which is not the case.
All of what I put was available in defence mode aside from the much faster speed which you only need to catch the target, once you catch it you swap to defence mode. Stitch Kaneland wrote: A rail DD, arty jag, arty thrasher and other scram kite ships (if flown properly) could but a hecate in a bad position.
Same goes for any other blaster boat. Stitch Kaneland wrote: And no, i have never flown a hecate, ive just killed quite a few of them. So im not trying to prevent a nerf to my favorite ship. I just think nerfing the hecate will push it into an eft warriors wet dream when all they look at is dps. Then they take it out and realize its a joke.
This is the problem, you don't have to make hard choices with these ships like you do with the other destroyers. You sacrifice nothing for switching modes and the fitting room, slots and cap are all far too forgiving.
The difference is closer to 4km with null. Which is huge in a frig fight when scram kiting. The catalyst can shoot about 250-300dps at scram range with null. More than enough to take down most frigs.
Hecate can swap into sharpshooter mode to get similar results (no falloff bonus though) and can hit the edge of scram with null loaded neutrons. To do this it sacrifices its tank bonuses. So id say thats a very reasonable trade off.
Once you "catch" your target. More likely when your target catches you. Dual prop fits are quite common, or just straight AB fits. Once the hecate is scrammed, its prop bonus is useless and can be escaped from assuming you have an AB. Hell ive scram kited hecates with a tornado. Goes like this. Hecate rams target, target scram/webs back and then coasts out of blaster optimal. Now its just a matter of either leaving the fight if you cant break him, or finish the fight.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16843
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 18:04:51 -
[158] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
The difference is closer to 4km with null. Which is huge in a frig fight when scram kiting. The catalyst can shoot about 250-300dps at scram range with null. More than enough to take down most frigs.
It cant fit a prop mod, scram and web like the Hecate can though.
Stitch Kaneland wrote: Hecate can swap into sharpshooter mode to get similar results (no falloff bonus though) and can hit the edge of scram with null loaded neutrons. To do this it sacrifices its tank bonuses. So id say thats a very reasonable trade off.
Why would you do that when you can web it into void range though?
Stitch Kaneland wrote: Once you "catch" your target. More likely when your target catches you. Dual prop fits are quite common, or just straight AB fits. Once the hecate is scrammed, its prop bonus is useless and can be escaped from assuming you have an AB. Hell ive scram kited hecates with a tornado. Goes like this. Hecate rams target, target scram/webs back and then coasts out of blaster optimal. Now its just a matter of either leaving the fight if you cant break him, or finish the fight.
Personally I would always fit an AB but the Hecate has the option of fitting an AB and a MWD, something the catalyst and Eris cannot do. As I said, there are simply not enough drawbacks on this ship for that much firepower.
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W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
383
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 18:29:41 -
[159] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Stitch Kaneland wrote:
The difference is closer to 4km with null. Which is huge in a frig fight when scram kiting. The catalyst can shoot about 250-300dps at scram range with null. More than enough to take down most frigs.
It cant fit a prop mod, scram and web like the Hecate can though. Stitch Kaneland wrote: Hecate can swap into sharpshooter mode to get similar results (no falloff bonus though) and can hit the edge of scram with null loaded neutrons. To do this it sacrifices its tank bonuses. So id say thats a very reasonable trade off.
Why would you do that when you can web it into void range though? Stitch Kaneland wrote: Once you "catch" your target. More likely when your target catches you. Dual prop fits are quite common, or just straight AB fits. Once the hecate is scrammed, its prop bonus is useless and can be escaped from assuming you have an AB. Hell ive scram kited hecates with a tornado. Goes like this. Hecate rams target, target scram/webs back and then coasts out of blaster optimal. Now its just a matter of either leaving the fight if you cant break him, or finish the fight.
Personally I would always fit an AB but the Hecate has the option of fitting an AB and a MWD, something the catalyst and Eris cannot do. As I said, there are simply not enough drawbacks on this ship for that much firepower.
You would fit a ab to a hecate? Thanks for showing up in this thread and thanks for making it clear what you know about them. |
W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
383
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 18:30:29 -
[160] - Quote
SFM Hobb3s wrote:Irony is, jaguar and wolf are both excellent AF counters to Confessors. That EM armor resist is a serious pain to get through. When all is said and done, my preference that 10mn still remain viable for brawling fits stays. I'm happy with snipers not being able to fit them (well, I haven't found a way to decently fit a beam confessor with 10mn and have it not be crap so...).
The eve community just got a nice buff to battlecruisers, and are getting all kinds of new ewar frigs. All these things impact the lifespan of T3's in battle.
Both jag and wolf die without a chance vs the confessor (if fit correctly, i.e 10mn beam ktiing fit or 10mn dual pulse brawling fit) |
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Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
606
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 18:32:37 -
[161] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Stitch Kaneland wrote:
The difference is closer to 4km with null. Which is huge in a frig fight when scram kiting. The catalyst can shoot about 250-300dps at scram range with null. More than enough to take down most frigs.
It cant fit a prop mod, scram and web like the Hecate can though. Stitch Kaneland wrote: Hecate can swap into sharpshooter mode to get similar results (no falloff bonus though) and can hit the edge of scram with null loaded neutrons. To do this it sacrifices its tank bonuses. So id say thats a very reasonable trade off.
Why would you do that when you can web it into void range though? Stitch Kaneland wrote: Once you "catch" your target. More likely when your target catches you. Dual prop fits are quite common, or just straight AB fits. Once the hecate is scrammed, its prop bonus is useless and can be escaped from assuming you have an AB. Hell ive scram kited hecates with a tornado. Goes like this. Hecate rams target, target scram/webs back and then coasts out of blaster optimal. Now its just a matter of either leaving the fight if you cant break him, or finish the fight.
Personally I would always fit an AB but the Hecate has the option of fitting an AB and a MWD, something the catalyst and Eris cannot do. As I said, there are simply not enough drawbacks on this ship for that much firepower.
That is correct, because its range bonuses are baked into the hull. Something the hecate lacks. Prop/web catalysts are fairly common and overcome the whole needing 3 mid thing. Since most frigs wont last long against 500-600dps, having no scram is viable.
You do realize other ships have webs too right? A webbed/scrammed hecate vs a frig/dessie/cruiser and even a battlecruiser with an AB is faster than a tackled hecate and can dictate range. So you sticking with void in defense mode will make you an easy kill against someone who scram kites you. Using null and sharpshooter mode will allow you to hit out to scram range, at the cost of your tank bonus. Which allows the scram kiter to kill you faster, but also allows you to apply some damage to the scram kiter to kill him or force him off. Comes down to a dps race at that point.
The hecate can fit an AB/MWD. But that in itself is a drawback since you now dont have room for a cap booster for that cap hungry tank (rep fits anyway). It also makes you highly vulnerable to neuts.. Not to mention the hecate is hilariously slow with an AB (about 550m/s IIRC). A thrasher can do about 750m/s. So assuming both have webs, the thrasher can get out of blaster range and still apply damage, where as you cannot.
Again, this is more about pilot skill to beat a hecate. Which is why its balanced. The svipul on the other hand is completely different and needs a nerf.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16846
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 18:51:40 -
[162] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
You would fit a ab to a hecate? Thanks for showing up in this thread and thanks for making it clear what you know about them.
I also shield fit megathrons. Perhaps if you experimented with fittings more and followed the top fits on battleclinic less you would get to know more than one fit per ship.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16846
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 19:03:57 -
[163] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
That is correct, because its range bonuses are baked into the hull. Something the hecate lacks. Prop/web catalysts are fairly common and overcome the whole needing 3 mid thing. Since most frigs wont last long against 500-600dps, having no scram is viable.
Most frigs bug out the second a destroyer lands on them so you aint holding ****, hence why nobody uses a gank cat outside of ganking haulers in highsec.
Stitch Kaneland wrote: You do realize other ships have webs too right?
The two other very high damage destroyers don't though.
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Again, this is more about pilot skill to beat a hecate. Which is why its balanced..
Tell me why I would use any blaster specialist destroyer over a Hecate.
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Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
606
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 19:31:11 -
[164] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Stitch Kaneland wrote:
That is correct, because its range bonuses are baked into the hull. Something the hecate lacks. Prop/web catalysts are fairly common and overcome the whole needing 3 mid thing. Since most frigs wont last long against 500-600dps, having no scram is viable.
Most frigs bug out the second a destroyer lands on them so you aint holding ****, hence why nobody uses a gank cat outside of ganking haulers in highsec. Stitch Kaneland wrote: You do realize other ships have webs too right?
The two other very high damage destroyers don't though. Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Again, this is more about pilot skill to beat a hecate. Which is why its balanced..
Tell me why I would use any blaster specialist destroyer over a Hecate.
No they dont actually. Many frigs dont realize they arent pointed and fight to the end. Ive flown honor point fits frequently and youd be surprised how many dont realize they arent pointed. Some get away, but if your objective is to hold a location (plex), then its a win-win. Either you kill them, or you make them run.
Who said the web was isolated to a destroyer though? Im talking about scram kiting, which can be done in anything. A hecate can be scram kited by a frig, dessie, cruiser and BC that are AB fitted. Please read the entire point and not snip off the end with the pertinent information.
Ganking or for bait fits. Newbro friendly or you just need a dps powerhouse for cheap and have support ships to cover the tackle aspect. I.E, frigate gang with a few catalysts to kill larger ships. Its fairly common in FW.. i know, i know. Things exist other than ganking in HS and roaming nullsec.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16846
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 19:42:41 -
[165] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
No they dont actually. Many frigs dont realize they arent pointed and fight to the end. Ive flown honor point fits frequently and youd be surprised how many dont realize they arent pointed.
I fly them too, most will run and the inability to shut down a MWD will hurt..
Stitch Kaneland wrote: Who said the web was isolated to a destroyer though?
I did when we started to compare the Hecate with the other very high damage destroyers.
Stitch Kaneland wrote: Ganking or for bait fits. Newbro friendly or you just need a dps powerhouse for cheap and have support ships to cover the tackle aspect. I.E, frigate gang with a few catalysts to kill larger ships. Its fairly common in FW.. i know, i know. Things exist other than ganking in HS and roaming nullsec.
So none then because the Hecate will bring more damage, tank, utility, fitting room, cap, and speed than all of the other options can. This is why it is not balanced, the other destroyers must make hard choices while the Hecate can bring all of the options in one fit. It is also the reason why ships like the enyo and ishkur have been relegated to near uselessness, the Hecate out preforms everything in its level and below, same with the rest of the t3d lineup.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
42
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 01:54:19 -
[166] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Stitch Kaneland wrote:
No they dont actually. Many frigs dont realize they arent pointed and fight to the end. Ive flown honor point fits frequently and youd be surprised how many dont realize they arent pointed.
I fly them too, most will run and the inability to shut down a MWD will hurt.. Stitch Kaneland wrote: Who said the web was isolated to a destroyer though?
I did when we started to compare the Hecate with the other very high damage destroyers. Stitch Kaneland wrote: Ganking or for bait fits. Newbro friendly or you just need a dps powerhouse for cheap and have support ships to cover the tackle aspect. I.E, frigate gang with a few catalysts to kill larger ships. Its fairly common in FW.. i know, i know. Things exist other than ganking in HS and roaming nullsec.
So none then because the Hecate will bring more damage, tank, utility, fitting room, cap, and speed than all of the other options can. This is why it is not balanced, the other destroyers must make hard choices while the Hecate can bring all of the options in one fit. It is also the reason why ships like the enyo and ishkur have been relegated to near uselessness, the Hecate out preforms everything in its level and below, same with the rest of the t3d lineup.
Based on your responses it's clear you are only out for blood and have no clue regarding balance of the T3ds. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16846
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 05:36:12 -
[167] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote: Based on your responses it's clear you are only out for blood and have no clue regarding balance of the T3ds.
Do you even know how I would balance them? Or is this just another vague attack on someone pointing out how wildly out of whack these ship are compared to the other ships in its class.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
296
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 05:55:26 -
[168] - Quote
All this talk about scram kiting a hecate is funny. 250 dps at 9km with no range mods. 108 dps @ 11km.
But I guess everybody has faction scrams and links. |
Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
2036
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 10:54:50 -
[169] - Quote
So, for the people in the focus group, is there a consensus that AF should be improved before T3Ds get nerfed into the ground?
Dear eve players, please try and use the word "content" less and instead, be specific. Thanks
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SFM Hobb3s
Wrecking Shots Northern Coalition.
380
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 12:19:43 -
[170] - Quote
I don't like speaking on behalf of others but I'll provide some generic input. There are arguments both ways but I believe the consensus is that AF's are not meant to be a solo counter to a T3. Increasing cost of t3 is talked about. Balance-wise we talk a lot about how certain t3d's, namely Svipul, are much....easier to fly. We're mostly all agreed that its OP. The goal is that mode-switching is a critical and tactical choice, and the Svi can usually just do everything from one mode. While the other t3d's can be argued to be just as powerful, they actually do take skillful flying to be successful. This is something we want to keep. We frequently discuss the pros and cons of allowing 10mn AB use on these hulls, and are considering 'alternatives' designed to limit or bar their use without seriously impacting surviveability and versatility of the ship class. |
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Ares Desideratus
Minmatar Brotherhood Ushra'Khan
283
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 12:25:30 -
[171] - Quote
Templar Dane wrote:All this talk about scram kiting a hecate is funny. 250 dps at 9km with no range mods. 108 dps @ 11km.
But I guess everybody has faction scrams and links. 108 dps at 11km pretty much goes to show exactly why someone would want to scram kite the hecate |
Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
2037
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 13:33:24 -
[172] - Quote
SFM Hobb3s wrote:I don't like speaking on behalf of others but I'll provide some generic input. There are arguments both ways but I believe the consensus is that AF's are not meant to be a solo counter to a T3. Increasing cost of t3 is talked about. Balance-wise we talk a lot about how certain t3d's, namely Svipul, are much....easier to fly. We're mostly all agreed that its OP. The goal is that mode-switching is a critical and tactical choice, and the Svi can usually just do everything from one mode. While the other t3d's can be argued to be just as powerful, they actually do take skillful flying to be successful. This is something we want to keep. We frequently discuss the pros and cons of allowing 10mn AB use on these hulls, and are considering 'alternatives' designed to limit or bar their use without seriously impacting surviveability and versatility of the ship class.
Thanks. I agree with he comments regarding the Svipul and the oversized prop mods. I have a reasonably fit confessor and i hope it doesn't get nerfed because of the handful of op fits available.
Has anyone brought up the concept of penalties being applied to depending on the mode a T3D is in? for example, reduced optimal when in sharp propulsion mode or a reduction in speed in defence mode.
Dear eve players, please try and use the word "content" less and instead, be specific. Thanks
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Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
1287
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 15:20:05 -
[173] - Quote
Please keep in mind that there are already two MNRs going into T3D-production each, and the price didn't quite adjust to that rise yet. I'd be all for svipul's optimal bonus shifting to sharpshooter and 5 turrets to fit, but adjusting the price (by upping the production costs) of all because one and a half T3Ds are running amoque sounds shortsighted. |
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
49
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 15:02:04 -
[174] - Quote
So has this focused group fizzled out? |
Mario Putzo
1556
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 19:10:21 -
[175] - Quote
I'm not part of a focus group. But here is what I think needs to happen.
1) AFs should get a role bonus for something like 50% (arbitrary number) resistance to EW effects, put them in line to be Anti- EW Support ships a counter to new Navy Faction EW Frigs, and other T1/T2 EW platforms.
2) T3s need to have mode switch take the cooldown to kick in ie. Speed > Wait > Tank. In stead of Speed > Tank > wait. Also they need to have their fitting values looked at so people need to make a concrete choice about having speed, tank, or gank.
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2350
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 19:37:07 -
[176] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Also they need to have their fitting values looked at so people need to make a concrete choice about having speed, tank, or gank.
That's mostly an auto-cannon problem. Any ship that can fit artillery will be able to fit autos and tank at the same time because of the fitting on them being so low. |
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
177
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 04:21:04 -
[177] - Quote
Hecate and Jackdaw are fairly well balanced. 10mn AB Confessor is fairly strong but relies on cap for everything it does (armor buffer builds are pretty weak IMO). Svipul is just way too strong. Not just 10mn Svipuls but also mwd fits just because base speed (speed while scrammed) on prop mode is still faster than frigates so it will still dictate range even in most of those scenarios.
The prop mode for the Svipul and Confessor need to changed to a % increase to speed provided by AB or MWD, and not an increase to the base speed. In autocannon fits I practically never switch to sharpshooter mode or defensive mode. The base speed increase on prop mode helps you mitigate more damage when fighting vs cruisers than defensive mode, and allows for more transversal/range dictation for damage application when fighter vs things smaller than cruisers than sharpshooter mode. |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
279
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 12:59:53 -
[178] - Quote
When is this focus group happening? I am waiting to see what your going to do to Tac Destroyers.
I hope there isn't much of a nerf as I find these ships interesting and fun to fly. Perhaps just increase their sig radius, and then buff AFs.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
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W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
390
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 13:09:36 -
[179] - Quote
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:Hecate and Jackdaw are fairly well balanced. 10mn AB Confessor is fairly strong but relies on cap for everything it does (armor buffer builds are pretty weak IMO). Svipul is just way too strong. Not just 10mn Svipuls but also mwd fits just because base speed (speed while scrammed) on prop mode is still faster than frigates so it will still dictate range even in most of those scenarios.
The prop mode for the Svipul and Confessor need to changed to a % increase to speed provided by AB or MWD, and not an increase to the base speed. In autocannon fits I practically never switch to sharpshooter mode or defensive mode. The base speed increase on prop mode helps you mitigate more damage when fighting vs cruisers than defensive mode, and allows for more transversal/range dictation for damage application when fighter vs things smaller than cruisers than sharpshooter mode.
Well balanced in regards to how op the svipul is yes, but not in regards to the other ships out there. Its the best one in terms of balance but while it is by far the worst t3d it isnt a bad ship. |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
279
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 13:12:27 -
[180] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:Hecate and Jackdaw are fairly well balanced. 10mn AB Confessor is fairly strong but relies on cap for everything it does (armor buffer builds are pretty weak IMO). Svipul is just way too strong. Not just 10mn Svipuls but also mwd fits just because base speed (speed while scrammed) on prop mode is still faster than frigates so it will still dictate range even in most of those scenarios.
The prop mode for the Svipul and Confessor need to changed to a % increase to speed provided by AB or MWD, and not an increase to the base speed. In autocannon fits I practically never switch to sharpshooter mode or defensive mode. The base speed increase on prop mode helps you mitigate more damage when fighting vs cruisers than defensive mode, and allows for more transversal/range dictation for damage application when fighter vs things smaller than cruisers than sharpshooter mode. Well balanced in regards to how op the svipul is yes, but not in regards to the other ships out there. Its the best one in terms of balance but while it is by far the worst t3d it isnt a bad ship. Your reply was a little confusing, but I think you mean to say the Svipul is OP. This is why I said increase sig radius across the board above, the Svipul is the one which would be hurt the most by that.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
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O2 jayjay
Sickology Together We Solo
47
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 04:12:51 -
[181] - Quote
Wrecktum Yourday wrote:While we're at it can we get pirate frigs out of novice plexes.
Like the most powerful frig in thw game? Worm im looking at you! |
Feyrin
Star Frontiers Brotherhood of Spacers
46
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 12:56:56 -
[182] - Quote
O2 jayjay wrote:Wrecktum Yourday wrote:While we're at it can we get pirate frigs out of novice plexes. Like the most powerful frig in thw game? Worm im looking at you!
The worm is being addressed seperately in the balance smorgasboard thread. -20 CPU -1 lowslot. Please discuss there. Lets try and keep this on topic. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
894
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 15:12:50 -
[183] - Quote
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:Hecate and Jackdaw are fairly well balanced. 10mn AB Confessor is fairly strong but relies on cap for everything it does (armor buffer builds are pretty weak IMO). Svipul is just way too strong. Not just 10mn Svipuls but also mwd fits just because base speed (speed while scrammed) on prop mode is still faster than frigates so it will still dictate range even in most of those scenarios.
The prop mode for the Svipul and Confessor need to changed to a % increase to speed provided by AB or MWD, and not an increase to the base speed. In autocannon fits I practically never switch to sharpshooter mode or defensive mode. The base speed increase on prop mode helps you mitigate more damage when fighting vs cruisers than defensive mode, and allows for more transversal/range dictation for damage application when fighter vs things smaller than cruisers than sharpshooter mode.
The Confessor is only good because you can fit a 10mn ab in the first place. If you fit a 1mn you are just an expensive lossmail waiting to happen. Take it away and the Confessor went from good to lol.
Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
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Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
51
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 17:12:56 -
[184] - Quote
Losing the 10mn on the confessor would hurt pve, not PvP so much. I love beam confessor a lot, and you have to have max fitting skills and use a lot of meta items to make it fit, so with the need please don't reduce cpu/pg doing so would be detrimental to a lot of great but not op fits. Especially for the confessor. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1858
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 19:22:24 -
[185] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:Hecate and Jackdaw are fairly well balanced. 10mn AB Confessor is fairly strong but relies on cap for everything it does (armor buffer builds are pretty weak IMO). Svipul is just way too strong. Not just 10mn Svipuls but also mwd fits just because base speed (speed while scrammed) on prop mode is still faster than frigates so it will still dictate range even in most of those scenarios.
The prop mode for the Svipul and Confessor need to changed to a % increase to speed provided by AB or MWD, and not an increase to the base speed. In autocannon fits I practically never switch to sharpshooter mode or defensive mode. The base speed increase on prop mode helps you mitigate more damage when fighting vs cruisers than defensive mode, and allows for more transversal/range dictation for damage application when fighter vs things smaller than cruisers than sharpshooter mode. The Confessor is only good because you can fit a 10mn ab in the first place. If you fit a 1mn you are just an expensive lossmail waiting to happen. Take it away and the Confessor went from good to lol.
The Confessor is just fine with a 5mn MWD. I've never used a 10mn AB on the Confessor, for philosophical reasons, and I've had plenty of success with it. Perhaps I am doing it "wrong," but the ship really does work without a 10mn AB.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Black Hydra Consortium.
2051
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 19:59:11 -
[186] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:elitatwo wrote:Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:Hecate and Jackdaw are fairly well balanced. 10mn AB Confessor is fairly strong but relies on cap for everything it does (armor buffer builds are pretty weak IMO). Svipul is just way too strong. Not just 10mn Svipuls but also mwd fits just because base speed (speed while scrammed) on prop mode is still faster than frigates so it will still dictate range even in most of those scenarios.
The prop mode for the Svipul and Confessor need to changed to a % increase to speed provided by AB or MWD, and not an increase to the base speed. In autocannon fits I practically never switch to sharpshooter mode or defensive mode. The base speed increase on prop mode helps you mitigate more damage when fighting vs cruisers than defensive mode, and allows for more transversal/range dictation for damage application when fighter vs things smaller than cruisers than sharpshooter mode. The Confessor is only good because you can fit a 10mn ab in the first place. If you fit a 1mn you are just an expensive lossmail waiting to happen. Take it away and the Confessor went from good to lol. The Confessor is just fine with a 5mn MWD. I've never used a 10mn AB on the Confessor, for philosophical reasons, and I've had plenty of success with it. Perhaps I am doing it "wrong," but the ship really does work without a 10mn AB. Agreeing with this after playing the pvp setups at eve vegas. For those who weren't there, they had eight prefit t3d's to chose from. The MWD confessor was the best ship in this meta, only being countered effectively by mwd svipuls with autocannons, neuts and scram. Obviously this isn't reflective of TQ, but it was awesome playing with t3's and being able to get so many fights in such a short period of time. The hecate rail scram-kite fit was the only fit that was completely awful, but that was because the fights were around a beacon with no gate in. The jackdaw had issues with its resist profile when there were so many svipuls and confessors running around. The confessor fits were both beams with 10mn ab or mwd, both with a web instead of point.
Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!
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elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
894
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 20:36:02 -
[187] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:The Confessor is just fine with a 5mn MWD. I've never used a 10mn AB on the Confessor, for philosophical reasons, and I've had plenty of success with it. Perhaps I am doing it "wrong," but the ship really does work without a 10mn AB.
Maybe but you cannot sig-tank with a mwd. I guess your fit uses pulses instead of beams so being close is what you want. The 10mn beam fit is different to fly that's why I fly it this way.
But this is also a matter of taste. How you like to fly and I may be completely different and that is fine. Let's not discuss taste.
Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
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W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
390
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 04:16:09 -
[188] - Quote
10mn beam fessor >>>>>> so hard over any other confessor |
Ray P
State Protectorate Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 17:25:01 -
[189] - Quote
Instalock Svipuls have to go |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1861
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 20:03:06 -
[190] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:The Confessor is just fine with a 5mn MWD. I've never used a 10mn AB on the Confessor, for philosophical reasons, and I've had plenty of success with it. Perhaps I am doing it "wrong," but the ship really does work without a 10mn AB. Maybe but you cannot sig-tank with a mwd. I guess your fit uses pulses instead of beams so being close is what you want. The 10mn beam fit is different to fly that's why I fly it this way. But this is also a matter of taste. How you like to fly and I may be completely different and that is fine. Let's not discuss taste.
Completely agree. Different play styles for different folks.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
53
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 23:38:45 -
[191] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:elitatwo wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:The Confessor is just fine with a 5mn MWD. I've never used a 10mn AB on the Confessor, for philosophical reasons, and I've had plenty of success with it. Perhaps I am doing it "wrong," but the ship really does work without a 10mn AB. Maybe but you cannot sig-tank with a mwd. I guess your fit uses pulses instead of beams so being close is what you want. The 10mn beam fit is different to fly that's why I fly it this way. But this is also a matter of taste. How you like to fly and I may be completely different and that is fine. Let's not discuss taste. Completely agree. Different play styles for different folks.
I fly with a mwd and beams and fly without a 10mn ab. Flys like a big slicer little omen navy issue. All of which do great without oversized ab's. |
Erik Kalkoken
VOLTAGE REGULATORS The Bloc
24
|
Posted - 2015.10.30 11:02:14 -
[192] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Important information from the focus group so far:
I'll start us off with one tidbit that we've already decided on (so that it doesn't derail other discussion): We plan on reducing Tactical Destroyer insurance payouts to T2 levels (30% of current payout) in the December release.
As mentioned in the latest CSM summit minutes, we are also planning on removing Tactical Destroyers from Small FW complexes.
+1 |
Erik Kalkoken
VOLTAGE REGULATORS The Bloc
24
|
Posted - 2015.10.30 11:39:57 -
[193] - Quote
I think the most annoying feature of the T3Ds is the Insta Warp Trick. It basically makes them gate camp proof, which is just too much for an already very powerful ship class.
Here are some ideas on how to mitigate that without having to change basic game mechanics: 1. Disallow mod changing while holding gate cloak. This way they can't use the insta trick if they jumped while being in the wrong mode. 2. Introduce a slight delay before mod change is effective. The insta trick only works, because the mod change effect is instant. If there were a slight delay, e.g. 1 sec. That would give an insta locker enough time to catch the T3D.
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Capqu
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1177
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 14:52:50 -
[194] - Quote
can we still apply?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
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Capqu
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1177
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 14:56:39 -
[195] - Quote
heres my cv https://zkillboard.com/character/1107018389/ i'm a frigate master
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
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elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
897
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 16:26:29 -
[196] - Quote
I don't need to look at that, I know. Best of luck!
Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
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Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
55
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 23:36:01 -
[197] - Quote
Any update on plans for these ships, or how the focus group is going? |
per
Terpene Conglomerate
87
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 18:56:57 -
[198] - Quote
just give AF's bonus: +50% dmg vs t3d's - two problems solved with one hit |
Johnny Riko
Jump Drive Appreciation Society Test Alliance Please Ignore
98
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 07:30:22 -
[199] - Quote
AFs need either a large tank improvement or a large speed improvement IMO. I'm not saying they should stand up to t3d, but they should at least feel like they have a role, as very heavy tackle or something.
I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
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Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
2100
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 07:55:08 -
[200] - Quote
per wrote:just give AF's bonus: +50% dmg vs t3d's - two problems solved with one hit
Design a frigate to kill a ship designed to kill frigates...
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
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Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders
563
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 15:46:52 -
[201] - Quote
Could we get an update on what else the Focus Group has come up with for T3Ds?
As a response to a few off topic posts in the thread though, most AFs function very well in FW lowsec if you exclude T3Ds from the equation. They don't need, nor warrant, a buff in most cases. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1911
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 16:01:26 -
[202] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Could we get an update on what else the Focus Group has come up with for T3Ds?
As a response to a few off topic posts in the thread though, most AFs function very well in FW lowsec if you exclude T3Ds from the equation. They don't need, nor warrant, a buff in most cases.
It would indeed be nice to have an update on this...
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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Barrogh Habalu
Forever Winter
1083
|
Posted - 2015.11.07 19:38:41 -
[203] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Could we get an update on what else the Focus Group has come up with for T3Ds?
As a response to a few off topic posts in the thread though, most AFs function very well in FW lowsec if you exclude T3Ds from the equation. They don't need, nor warrant, a buff in most cases. The issue is that there is a world outside FW, and t3ds won't probably become non-factor there even if you ban them in small plexes or something.
Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
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Shalashaska Adam
Partial Safety
96
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 04:07:21 -
[204] - Quote
My concern with the Focus Group approach, is that many people are going to have many ideas, and implementing many of them at the same time is going to trash these ships.
The Jackdaw and Hecate I believe are already perfectly fine, after the two already announced nerfs, the insurance and the banishment from small plex's, I don't see them needing any other changes.
The Svipul I think it's evident, will need a further alteration to its stats, but the Confessor should be given the two nerfs already announced and then left for a bit to see if it really requires any more after that. |
Johnny Riko
Jump Drive Appreciation Society Test Alliance Please Ignore
98
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 04:18:55 -
[205] - Quote
Shalashaska Adam wrote:My concern with the Focus Group approach, is that many people are going to have many ideas, and implementing many of them at the same time is going to trash these ships.
The Jackdaw and Hecate I believe are already perfectly fine, after the two already announced nerfs, the insurance and the banishment from small plex's, I don't see them needing any other changes.
The Svipul I think it's evident, will need a further alteration to its stats, but the Confessor should be given the two nerfs already announced and then left for a bit to see if it really requires any more after that.
If you think that the Hecate and Jackdaw are already in line with the meta, then why is it fair to only give the Confessor the same nerfs? I think everyone can agree the Svipul needs an actual nerf to it's ability. What I don't understand is why you don't believe the Confessor needs the same. It's clearly better than the Gallente and Caldari versions, but obviously not as massively overpowered as the Svipul. So surely the conclusion should be to give all T3D the insurance and small plex nerf, whilst giving the Confessor a slight reduction in ability and the Svipul a more severe nerf.
I'm more interested to see what will be done to Assault Frigates, because even with the proposed changes, the Hecate and Jackdaw are still making AFs redundant. If AFs are to maintain the same role, they need to/should be faster than the T3Ds, or they need to be completely rebranded into a different role.
I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
228
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 06:01:06 -
[206] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:Shalashaska Adam wrote:My concern with the Focus Group approach, is that many people are going to have many ideas, and implementing many of them at the same time is going to trash these ships.
The Jackdaw and Hecate I believe are already perfectly fine, after the two already announced nerfs, the insurance and the banishment from small plex's, I don't see them needing any other changes.
The Svipul I think it's evident, will need a further alteration to its stats, but the Confessor should be given the two nerfs already announced and then left for a bit to see if it really requires any more after that. If you think that the Hecate and Jackdaw are already in line with the meta, then why is it fair to only give the Confessor the same nerfs? I think everyone can agree the Svipul needs an actual nerf to it's ability. What I don't understand is why you don't believe the Confessor needs the same. It's clearly better than the Gallente and Caldari versions, but obviously not as massively overpowered as the Svipul. So surely the conclusion should be to give all T3D the insurance and small plex nerf, whilst giving the Confessor a slight reduction in ability and the Svipul a more severe nerf. I'm more interested to see what will be done to Assault Frigates, because even with the proposed changes, the Hecate and Jackdaw are still making AFs redundant. If AFs are to maintain the same role, they need to/should be faster than the T3Ds, or they need to be completely rebranded into a different role.
I just stumbled upon some really delicious Svipul fits that's gotten me feeling giddy as of late, but alas I know it's only temporary. Just be careful how badly you nerf this ship, it's one of the better Minnie ships at there right now.
The Confessor is more cap dependent than any other T3D, it doesn't need any more nerfs. |
Aiyshimin
Fistful of Finns Paisti Syndicate
583
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 08:39:02 -
[207] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:
The Confessor is more cap dependent than any other T3D, it doesn't need any more nerfs.
No, it's way less cap dependent than the Hecate, which has less total capacitor and higher cap use for running a repper. |
Dunstan
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 23:48:46 -
[208] - Quote
As far as insurance goes; why not do a rework?
For Example:
T1 - 75% After Cost of Insurance Hull Price Returned Nv - 55% After Cost of Insurance Hull Price Returned T2 - 45% After Cost of Insurance Hull Price Returned Pr - 35% After Cost of Insurance Hull Price Returned T3 - 25% After Cost of Insurance Hull Price Returned
I would also like to see T3 abilities come into effect at end of cycle time. If this is done, I wouldn't mind a cut in half for cool-down, but not really needed as they are good even without it.
|
DrysonBennington
Aliastra Gallente Federation
242
|
Posted - 2015.11.14 10:26:49 -
[209] - Quote
I mean you actually want us to believe that each time we dock the ship repairs cost 30 million ISK. |
Kroggort
Rondass
0
|
Posted - 2015.11.14 16:24:40 -
[210] - Quote
Get rid of oversized AB Harmonize PG needs for small Arty/AC Tweak Svipul PG
Fixed. |
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Budrick3
Quantum Wolves
142
|
Posted - 2015.11.14 16:26:04 -
[211] - Quote
How about you loose skill points every time you blow up in a t3d and keep them powerful. This way, with great power comes great responsibility, and people would start flying cruisers once again. |
Aisha Shimaya
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2
|
Posted - 2015.11.14 16:44:11 -
[212] - Quote
Budrick3 wrote:How about you loose skill points every time you blow up in a t3d and keep them powerful. This way, with great power comes great responsibility, and people would start flying cruisers once again. That sure worked for Strategic Cruisers |
Klatus Doshu
Die Kreuzritter Invidia Gloriae Comes
6
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 14:23:30 -
[213] - Quote
Just bringing again my thoughts on the T3 from a producer's point view, since there were some statements, that T3D are too cheap. Well, perhaps you can tweak that, by adding the need to produce also 3 subsytems (offensive, propulsion and defensive) for the 3TD plus of course the hull. Then you assemble it to the final TD3. You could use the same relics for reverse engineering as for the T3 cruisers, you just have to select which BPC you want ...as you already have to do now. By the extra effort in research and production the prices should also raise for the T3D. You can adjust the material need for the BPCs in such way, that you gain the desired raise in prices.
This would be only a minor intervention, which perhaps adresses some concerns about the TD3s. |
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1649
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 04:22:32 -
[214] - Quote
You'd think that ships thought up and introduced by 2 pvpers, turned devs, shouldn't result in such a mess that it requires a focus group to try and fix it. |
Medio Morde
TYR. Exodus.
5
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 21:10:15 -
[215] - Quote
Hi.
Why don't T3 destroyers cost skills when they die? They should. They are strong enough to warrant people still flying them, despite the potential loss. |
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
182
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 02:05:43 -
[216] - Quote
Medio Morde wrote:Hi.
Why don't T3 destroyers cost skills when they die? They should. They are strong enough to warrant people still flying them, despite the potential loss. Yeah let's encourage more risk adverse behaviour in PvP. |
Soltys
34
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 02:39:58 -
[217] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:You'd think that ships thought up and introduced by 2 pvpers, turned devs, shouldn't result in such a mess that it requires a focus group to try and fix it.
TBH, the wole T3 concept has been rather superfluous since its introduction .... if not right out damaging. We have:
- generic T1 stuff - dirt cheap and derp-forgiving, but still good and fulfiling their role - "T1" pirate and faction variations - much stronger and expensive, often with specific roles/perks (pirate ones esp.) - specialized T2 stuff - more expensive but still able to be mass produced, excelling at their roles but lacking in the other ares (in theory)
There is enough issues with all those groups to have a lifetime of balancing. And those 3 groups are enough cover any and all EvE needs.
The hell we need T3 for, roughly stomping over everything else around their respective class sizes ? As I mentioned earlier - considering T3 is supposed to be overpowered one or the other way - it's practically unbalancable, as any nerfs getting them in line with the other groups automatically lead to the quesiton: then what is the point of T3 if it's not more powerful ? This sutff is basically an absolute endgame "gear" to borrow nomenclature from other mmos (and to get the point across). But in this game ?
Jita Flipping Inc.: Solmp / Kovl
|
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1666
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 05:12:23 -
[218] - Quote
Soltys wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:You'd think that ships thought up and introduced by 2 pvpers, turned devs, shouldn't result in such a mess that it requires a focus group to try and fix it. TBH, the wole T3 concept has been rather superfluous since its introduction .... if not right out damaging. We have: - generic T1 stuff - dirt cheap and derp-forgiving, but still good and fulfiling their role - "T1" pirate and faction variations - much stronger and expensive, often with specific roles/perks (pirate ones esp.) - specialized T2 stuff - more expensive but still able to be mass produced, excelling at their roles but lacking in the other ares ( in theory) There is enough issues with all those groups to have a lifetime of balancing. And those 3 groups are enough cover any and all EvE needs. The hell we need T3 for, roughly stomping over everything else around their respective class sizes ? As I mentioned earlier - considering T3 is supposed to be overpowered one or the other way - it's practically unbalancable, as any nerfs getting them in line with the other groups automatically lead to the quesiton: then what is the point of T3 if it's not more powerful ? This sutff is basically an absolute endgame "gear" to borrow nomenclature from other mmos (and to get the point across). But in this game ?
T3D should never have been implemented. Anyone with a brain could/should realise that it would completely disrupt the landscape, the second someone brought that up the rest of the devs should have reacted with "don't be a moron, it's a dumb idea" and leave it at that. However, somehow our fantastically clever pvp DEVS didn't see that coming. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
910
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 08:39:22 -
[219] - Quote
Medio Morde wrote:Hi.
Why don't T3 destroyers cost skills when they die? They should. They are strong enough to warrant people still flying them, despite the potential loss.
Hi, go find a class 3-6 wormhole, go inside and have a look. Maybe make some isk in an Ibis and tell us how that went.
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
|
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1598
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 15:41:07 -
[220] - Quote
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:Medio Morde wrote:Hi.
Why don't T3 destroyers cost skills when they die? They should. They are strong enough to warrant people still flying them, despite the potential loss. Yeah let's encourage more risk adverse behaviour in PvP.
Risk aversion is in one's soul. It's not in the ship at all. |
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SaB0TaG3
TYR. Exodus.
10
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 13:01:17 -
[221] - Quote
If you want to fix T3Ds without them completely overpowering the meta like they currently do, I would suggest changing the following:
- Take away the scan res bonus from sharpshooter mode. T3D gatecamps (especially arti svipul) are extremely oppressive. Not even frigs can get past. Otherwise, the scan res effects are negligible. If the point was to make them a gate camping ship, it succeeded.
- Reduce the sig radius reduction to 33% per level instead of 66%. The resist bonus is way more than enough to make the T3Ds tanky. They don't need to also not be able to be hit well by the ships that should be killing them (cruisers).
- Mode switching: Maybe only allow them to switch modes if they haven't used an agressive mod in a certain amount of time, or make the mode switch timer longer.
- PG is a little too high on the svipul, oversized AB, and double extended ships should not still be able to use the largest guns imo. There's no sacrifice to be made while fitting. |
RcTamiya
SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart.
25
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 13:03:45 -
[222] - Quote
Please keep in mind, that RR-T3Ds are something people like and use ... don't ruin them too ;) |
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
60
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 04:00:47 -
[223] - Quote
SaB0TaG3 wrote:If you want to fix T3Ds without them completely overpowering the meta like they currently do, I would suggest changing the following:
- Take away the scan res bonus from sharpshooter mode. T3D gatecamps (especially arti svipul) are extremely oppressive. Not even frigs can get past. Otherwise, the scan res effects are negligible. If the point was to make them a gate camping ship, it succeeded.
- Reduce the sig radius reduction to 33% per level instead of 66%. The resist bonus is way more than enough to make the T3Ds tanky. They don't need to also not be able to be hit well by the ships that should be killing them (cruisers).
- Mode switching: Maybe only allow them to switch modes if they haven't used an agressive mod in a certain amount of time, or make the mode switch timer longer.
- PG is a little too high on the svipul, oversized AB, and double extended ships should not still be able to use the largest guns imo. There's no sacrifice to be made while fitting.
- When you jump through a gate and start off in speed mode, then start aligning and switch modes, you pretty much instawarp. Not sure if this was intended, but on top of all the other things that make T3Ds op, this also makes them mostly invulnerable on gates. Messing with the conditions for mode switch might fix this.
I agree with all this except for the mode switching. I don't believe Increasing the time between switches is the way to go. Make the modes more desirable to use so people actuallly switch. But everything lose is spot on. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2403
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 14:33:06 -
[224] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:You'd think that ships thought up and introduced by 2 pvpers, turned devs, shouldn't result in such a mess that it requires a focus group to try and fix it.
Making a class that has tools for close to any situation is generally a surefire way of making an OP class. It happened in other games too. |
Soltys
34
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 14:54:03 -
[225] - Quote
SaB0TaG3 wrote:
- PG is a little too high on the svipul, oversized AB, and double extended ships should not still be able to use the largest guns imo. There's no sacrifice to be made while fitting.
Ability to fit oversized prop modules shouldn't exist at all IMHO, whether it's about svipul or any other ship in the game. Either soft (e.g. 90% penalty to the effectivness of the module) or hard (cannot fit, period).
Otherwise the remaining approach is to nerf PG, which indirectly inhibits other sensible fits - only for the sake of avoiding oversized prop modules.
Mass*agility adjustments aren't exactly amazing idea either, as they also (negatively) influence all other stuff that involves mass addition.
Jita Flipping Inc.: Solmp / Kovl
|
Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
881
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 20:33:58 -
[226] - Quote
Soltys wrote:SaB0TaG3 wrote:
- PG is a little too high on the svipul, oversized AB, and double extended ships should not still be able to use the largest guns imo. There's no sacrifice to be made while fitting.
Ability to fit oversized prop modules shouldn't exist at all IMHO, whether it's about svipul or any other ship in the game. Either soft (e.g. 90% penalty to the effectivness of the module) or hard (cannot fit, period). Otherwise the remaining approach is to nerf PG, which indirectly inhibits other sensible fits - only for the sake of avoiding oversized prop modules. Mass*agility adjustments aren't exactly amazing idea either, as they also (negatively) influence all other stuff that involves mass addition.
I kind of agree with this. Make the T3Ds unable to use a cruiser size AB. Then see how they do. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
915
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 12:42:16 -
[227] - Quote
Soltys wrote:....some blurrbhh-....
Translation:
Mah Ibis can't kill a boat that is 2x the size of an Ibis, fully mean, make nurf nao!!
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2403
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 14:13:09 -
[228] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Soltys wrote:....some blurrbhh-.... Translation: Mah Ibis can't kill a boat that is 2x the size of an Ibis, fully mean, make nurf nao!!
Translation : Don't nerf me bro! |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1963
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 15:52:26 -
[229] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:Soltys wrote:SaB0TaG3 wrote:
- PG is a little too high on the svipul, oversized AB, and double extended ships should not still be able to use the largest guns imo. There's no sacrifice to be made while fitting.
Ability to fit oversized prop modules shouldn't exist at all IMHO, whether it's about svipul or any other ship in the game. Either soft (e.g. 90% penalty to the effectivness of the module) or hard (cannot fit, period). Otherwise the remaining approach is to nerf PG, which indirectly inhibits other sensible fits - only for the sake of avoiding oversized prop modules. Mass*agility adjustments aren't exactly amazing idea either, as they also (negatively) influence all other stuff that involves mass addition. I kind of agree with this. Make the T3Ds unable to use a cruiser size AB. Then see how they do.
Making propulsion modules size-specific would fix the problems with a lot of ships.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
|
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1679
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 22:41:43 -
[230] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Making propulsion modules size-specific would fix the problems with a lot of ships.
It's an easy, obvious and elegant solution to many of the problems indeed so it probably won't happen because folks who thought that Mordu and T3D was a good idea don't recognise a good idea when they see one. Or a bad one at that.
|
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Iyacia Cyric'ai
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
183
|
Posted - 2015.12.02 06:31:22 -
[231] - Quote
SaB0TaG3 wrote:PG is a little too high on the svipul, oversized AB, and double extended ships should not still be able to use the largest guns imo. There's no sacrifice to be made while fitting. Oversized AB, Double medium extender and largest ACs don't all fit. Oversized AB uses MASB not extenders and can't fit the largest guns without gimping the fit. Double extender fits use mwd.
The issue isn't oversized ABs IMO, it's mostly just speed mode. Even a scrammed MWD Svipul gets enough base speed boost from speed mode to control range/tracking in fights. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1193
|
Posted - 2015.12.06 20:37:16 -
[232] - Quote
so are svipuls still going unnerfed? what's going on with this? |
Feyrin
Star Frontiers Brotherhood of Spacers
59
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 13:54:05 -
[233] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:so are svipuls still going unnerfed? what's going on with this?
There aren't any changes slated for the 8th of december. So no immediate nerfs on the horizon.
I have to say I had pretty high hopes for the idea of focus groups as a great way to cut away some of the chaff and mean that CCP devs didn't have to wade through 150 pages of speculation and rabble rousing to get to the valuable feedback. However the complete lack of any engagement with the wider community since this focus group went live is totally the wrong way to go about it. Tell us what is going on we just want to help! |
strangescript
Solus Ventures
8
|
Posted - 2015.12.11 18:47:35 -
[234] - Quote
The mode system is kind of OP in general. You never know what you are facing when fighting them and simple click drastically changes what the ship is capable of in PVP. How you do you logically plan strategy around that?
The whole assault frigate argument doesn't really hold much weight either. T3 Desties are a ship size and tech level higher. They will of course eliminate the role AF's filled. (I don't like it either but I am not sure what people expected) Not to mention AF's have been struggle to fill a role for years anyway.
When I first saw these things I immediately thought that they looked OP as hell. I now have a sub, and have been training for a confessor ever since. My luck they will get nerfed by the time I can fly one well. |
Valacus
Streets of Fire
75
|
Posted - 2015.12.14 01:09:29 -
[235] - Quote
So no nerfs with the new T2 logi frigates. Great, now Svipuls are even more OP. Confessors too. I'm not sure what CCP was expecting when they released T3Ds. AFs are 100% obsolete. Most frigates are. T3Ds go as fast as frigates, turn as fast, can insta-warp, tank better, hit harder, just as small sig(with the exception of the Jackdaw. Caldari aren't allowed to have anything nice), and just utterly replace frigates in general. T3Ds can solo cruiser sized ships with ease. They all need to be gutted, but the Svipul and the Confessor need the most nerfing. We're going the complete wrong way in terms of balance. More power to the already highly preferred smaller ship classes while the larger subcaps continue to be ignored. |
Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony The Wraithguard.
138
|
Posted - 2015.12.14 22:55:11 -
[236] - Quote
May have been suggested already, but here's what I think: Assault Frigs could use a little speed. A T2 Rifter isn't supposed to be slower than a T1 Rifter -- it's supposed to be BETTER.
The Svipul - and only the Svipul - could use some toning down on the sensor strength and speed bonus in propulsion mode.
How do I figure? I fly Confessors, Jackdaws and Svipuls (haven't flown the Hecate because Gallente) - and the Svipul in propulsion mode matches the speed on assault frigs easily (it's the only T3D that goes well over a 1000 m/sec faster than the others!). Similarly, the Svipul in sharpshooter mode gets considerably better lockspeed than the others I've handled.
One would assume assault frigates, being smaller, target stuff faster. Because that's usually how it goes in EvE. The Svipul is an exception here.
One would assume destroyers are on-par with cruisers speeds and somewhat slower than assault frigs. Again, the Svipul is an exception.
I'm not talking the Big Bang here -- just a minor tweak (say, +8 m/sec on all assault frig) and a minor adjustment on the Svipul's Propmode / Sharpshooter bonusses would do the trick I think. The bonus on tracking speed is excellent; the scanres bonus is ... too much of a good thing. A Svipul in Defensive or Sharpshooter mode moves just fine; yet in Propulsion mode it could use less raw speed. Or, if top speed remains the way it is (to allow the ship to remain "different"), then gimp its agility (the exact opposite of the Jackdaw's Propmode). |
elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
958
|
Posted - 2015.12.16 18:55:29 -
[237] - Quote
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:... A T2 Rifter isn't supposed to be slower than a T1 Rifter -- it's supposed to be BETTER....
That premise is plain wrong. A tech2 is supposed to be different, not better.
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Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony The Wraithguard.
143
|
Posted - 2015.12.16 19:24:17 -
[238] - Quote
While I do agree with your statement, I feel assault frigates need a little "something" to give them an edge. They ought to be different, "specialised", yes? Well then ... what exactly are they specialised in? I always assumed they were beefier, damage dealing versions of the vanilla frigs; yet as it stands, they this role is completely overshadowed by T3 destroyers because T3Ds have taken over their sigradius bonus, and move at roughly the same speeds as well.
What I'm trying to get at, is that you may want to review their specialisation by giving them a little velocity buff as to ensure there's still a place for them. Different is one thing, no discussion there. But I also want better. Because I paid good ISK for it. Does that make sense to you?
The old 50% MWD sigradius reduction is no longer a selling point as T3Ds have it too. So... dare I suggest an 80% MWD sigradius reduction? A plain speed buff perhaps?
"Why speed" you ask? Well, because that would differentiate them from Tech III destroyers. Destroyers can retain their role as frigblapping machines with or without this modification; but I could once again undock an assault frig and feel like I've made a meaningful choice -- in this case, speed over gank/tank.
Your T1 frig would still be 'different' ; case in fact, a Rifter can fit scram/web/MWD whereas a Wolf only has 2 mids. It is by definition not a tackler but fleet DPS support. |
Shalashaska Adam
Partial Safety
119
|
Posted - 2015.12.17 15:00:52 -
[239] - Quote
https://suitonia.wordpress.com/2015/12/17/why-are-the-svipul-and-confessor-so-much-more-overpowered-than-the-hecate-and-jackdaw/
Highly recommend CCP give this a good read.
I think the observations and suggestions made in that article, really hit the nail on the head.
Changing the confessors speed mode bonuses to match the hecate, combined with a little base speed nerf and perhaps a small sig increase, would I think perfectly balance that ship, without ruining the fits of those who already use it in other already balanced ways.
Same again for the svipul, speed mode changed to match the hecate, base speed nerf, signature increase. A little something more might be required afterwards for that ship, but i think you get it 99% of the way there by simply making those changes.
What I think should be avoided is any further changes to their fitting, doing so is not truely addressing the issue, certainly not for the confessor atleast. By doing so you restrict the creativity and flexibility of all fits just to try and bandaid one particular issue.
Also would cut out the unintended mode switch trick, instead by giving them 2 sec alligns only in speed mode. |
Morrigan LeSante
Senex Legio The OSS
890
|
Posted - 2015.12.18 14:45:18 -
[240] - Quote
Have we considered applying a DPS malus when in defensive/prop modes? Their current DPS to tank ratio is foobar, imo. |
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elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
968
|
Posted - 2015.12.21 02:17:39 -
[241] - Quote
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:While I do agree with your statement, I feel assault frigates need a little "something" to give them an edge. They ought to be different, "specialised", yes? Well then ... what exactly are they specialised in? I always assumed they were beefier, damage dealing versions of the vanilla frigs; yet as it stands, they this role is completely overshadowed by T3 destroyers because T3Ds have taken over their sigradius bonus, and move at roughly the same speeds as well.
What I'm trying to get at, is that you may want to review their specialisation by giving them a little velocity buff as to ensure there's still a place for them. Different is one thing, no discussion there. But I also want better. Because I paid good ISK for it. Does that make sense to you?
The old 50% MWD sigradius reduction is no longer a selling point as T3Ds have it too. So... dare I suggest an 80% MWD sigradius reduction? A plain speed buff perhaps?
"Why speed" you ask? Well, because that would differentiate them from Tech III destroyers. Destroyers can retain their role as frigblapping machines with or without this modification; but I could once again undock an assault frig and feel like I've made a meaningful choice -- in this case, speed over gank/tank.
Your T1 frig would still be 'different' ; case in fact, a Rifter can fit scram/web/MWD whereas a Wolf only has 2 mids. It is by definition not a tackler but fleet DPS support.
I do get that and I don't know what the answer is. Yes a tad more speed would be nice but the concept still is that assault ships were supposed to hunt cruisers and up. A destroyer that is custom made for killing everything in it's class and below is not a good target for assault ships, unless you don't plan to live to tell a tale about it.
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elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
968
|
Posted - 2015.12.21 02:36:41 -
[242] - Quote
Shalashaska Adam wrote:https://suitonia.wordpress.com/2015/12/17/why-are-the-svipul-and-confessor-so-much-more-overpowered-than-the-hecate-and-jackdaw/
Highly recommend CCP give this a good read.
I think the observations and suggestions made in that article, really hit the nail on the head.
Changing the confessors speed mode bonuses to match the hecate, combined with a little base speed nerf and perhaps a small sig increase, would I think perfectly balance that ship, without ruining the fits of those who already use it in other already balanced ways.
Same again for the svipul, speed mode changed to match the hecate, base speed nerf, signature increase. A little something more might be required afterwards for that ship, but i think you get it 99% of the way there by simply making those changes.
What I think should be avoided is any further changes to their fitting, doing so is not truely addressing the issue, certainly not for the confessor atleast. By doing so you restrict the creativity and flexibility of all fits just to try and bandaid one particular issue.
Also would cut out the unintended mode switch trick, instead by giving them 2 sec alligns only in speed mode.
While I do like Suitonia and respect him a lot, I disagree somewhat.
Maybe the base speed on the Confessor is higher than the other ones but with that mass addition that makes the Confessor have more mass than a titan make is move really bulky. You can try an experiment on SiSi and fit a few 1600mm plates on a Maller and put a 100mn afterburner on and tell me how "agile" that is. There is not doubt that that minmatar thing is overpowered and needs to go down in flames.
Someone put a bath-tub with lead and bathe someone we all know in it and ask him, how he moves in his fancy new lead-coat. The rest of the blog says, destroyer kills frigate - destroyer op.
Here is a hint, Ibis kills Jackdaw because Jackdaw underpowered. Haven't flown the Hecate much, only once, but I feel that the Caldari and Gallente got a very short stick there and the sudden minmatar f(l)avoritism is making me sick.
Thy shalt not have a better ship than those of the Caldari - masters of technology.
That minmatar yolo-i-win-boat should explode when you hit approach, not the other way around. And for the rest of the lowsec is zee onla plece in EVE population, for the last time destroyer kills frigate - zee END.
And please make sure you apply to join EVE-UNI today, so they can explain to you what damage per hit and damage per second means - oh zee horror, two different things.
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
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Bobman Smith
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
0
|
Posted - 2015.12.21 22:37:11 -
[243] - Quote
Fixing T3 Dessies is quite simple.
Remove insurance: You lose it, you lose it all! (unless you come back to salvage your own corps) Increase Dessy Hull cost to about 160M: They should simply cost more then a T2! Change 50% to 25% weapons damage bonus. Doing good damage should be an asset to the class, but it should be its utility that gives it its advantage over T2. T2 DPS should always out DPS T3.
T3 Destroyers should cost aprox 160M. Change 50% to 25% weapons damage bonus.
Remove Insurance from game. Undocking should be risky with no paybacks!
Ban Frigate Pirate Ships from Novice FW Plexs.
Have more then 1 Clone in a station without loss.
|
elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
971
|
Posted - 2015.12.22 01:19:20 -
[244] - Quote
Bobman Smith wrote:Fixing T3 Dessies is quite simple.
Remove insurance: You lose it, you lose it all! (unless you come back to salvage your own corps) Increase Dessy Hull cost to about 160M: They should simply cost more then a T2! Change 50% to 25% weapons damage bonus. Doing good damage should be an asset to the class, but it should be its utility that gives it its advantage over T2. T2 DPS should always out DPS T3.
Sorry for my ignorance but what is a "dessay" and why should it cost more than a pirate cruiser? And while we are at it, can we reduce the amount of turrets a destroyer has?
An eight turret Catalyst is too stronk, should be 0.1 or 0.009 turrets, so they can't hurt the poor newbies in the lows and stuff. Better have all destroyers have a weapon damage penalty of 99.991% and rename them to pokemons instead - I poketh thee.
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
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|
Bobman Smith
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
1
|
Posted - 2015.12.22 03:41:11 -
[245] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Bobman Smith wrote:Fixing T3 Dessies is quite simple.
Remove insurance: You lose it, you lose it all! (unless you come back to salvage your own corps) Increase Dessy Hull cost to about 160M: They should simply cost more then a T2! Change 50% to 25% weapons damage bonus. Doing good damage should be an asset to the class, but it should be its utility that gives it its advantage over T2. T2 DPS should always out DPS T3. Sorry for my ignorance but what is a "dessay" and why should it cost more than a pirate cruiser? And while we are at it, can we reduce the amount of turrets a destroyer has? An eight turret Catalyst is too stronk, should be 0.1 or 0.009 turrets, so they can't hurt the poor newbies in the lows and stuff. Better have all destroyers have a weapon damage penalty of 99.991% and rename them to pokemons instead - I poketh thee.
Your logic is? Maybe its Dessie? You speak slang? Destroyers are commonly called Dessies, or Dessys, or however its spelt as its not really a proper word but an acronym.
Why should a T3 cost more then Pirate? Um, here's one: Its state of the art! Pirate ships are essentially glorified T1's still and they're costs reflect there rarity. There rarity balances there strengths over T1.
And its, "puff puff pass" fyi
T3 Destroyers should cost aprox 160M. Change 50% to 25% weapons damage bonus.
Remove Insurance from game. Undocking should be risky with no paybacks!
Ban Frigate Pirate Ships from Novice FW Plexs.
Have more then 1 Clone in a station without loss.
|
elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
974
|
Posted - 2015.12.22 17:44:45 -
[246] - Quote
Bobman Smith wrote:... Maybe its Dessie? You speak slang? Destroyers are commonly called Dessies, or Dessys, or however its spelt as its not really a proper word but an acronym.
Sorry, I don't speak colloquial. I hear it alot but this is not what they tought us in school. Haven't you ever noticed that I very rarely use acronyms at all? Since this forum is open to read for all mankind to see I abstain from using acronyms which people from other backgrouds maybe not be familiar with as we are.
I still disagree that a large frigate should cost more than a pirate faction ship. State of the art maybe but they really shine in unknown space where you have to make more tactical decisions and don't have a market hub to dock and buy stuff that isn't there. Maybe it is difficult to comprehend for people with a narrow viewfield but outside of lowsec there are areas of New Eden that are just out of reach of anything and all you have there is what you bring.
Unless you live in Syndicate where you can dock in most systems, everyone elses station doesn't allow for "outsiders" to dock and trade. I said many, many times in the last decade that they digging their own grave but they wouldn't listen. Now they are begging CCP to clean up the mess they created.
There needs to be a general shift in a lot of places but when I call for nerfs, people start to look funny. Maybe someday, someone finds a ways to nerf people. Until then we need to put a secret service detail on the middle school's playground.
So pokemons and frigate online it is.
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
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Bobman Smith
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
1
|
Posted - 2015.12.22 21:16:22 -
[247] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Bobman Smith wrote:... Maybe its Dessie? You speak slang? Destroyers are commonly called Dessies, or Dessys, or however its spelt as its not really a proper word but an acronym. Sorry, I don't speak colloquial. I hear it alot but this is not what they tought us in school. Haven't you ever noticed that I very rarely use acronyms at all? Since this forum is open to read for all mankind to see I abstain from using acronyms which people from other backgrouds maybe not be familiar with as we are. I still disagree that a large frigate should cost more than a pirate faction ship. State of the art maybe but they really shine in unknown space where you have to make more tactical decisions and don't have a market hub to dock and buy stuff that isn't there. Maybe it is difficult to comprehend for people with a narrow viewfield but outside of lowsec there are areas of New Eden that are just out of reach of anything and all you have there is what you bring. Unless you live in Syndicate where you can dock in most systems, everyone elses station doesn't allow for "outsiders" to dock and trade. I said many, many times in the last decade that they digging their own grave but they wouldn't listen. Now they are begging CCP to clean up the mess they created. There needs to be a general shift in a lot of places but when I call for nerfs, people start to look funny. Maybe someday, someone finds a ways to nerf people. Until then we need to put a secret service detail on the middle school's playground. So pokemons and frigate online it is.
You make a good point about using acronyms on public fourms and I'll make the effort to reduce them going forwards.
But the rest of what you said does not make any sense... I'm trying to reverse engineer the logic but get stumped with trying to enter the value "pokemon" as its been referenced twice. Is there a guide I missed? Some activity in Eve I have not heard about? Please enlighten me your grace, as I'm having difficulties decoding your point...
T3 Destroyers should cost aprox 160M. Change 50% to 25% weapons damage bonus.
Remove Insurance from game. Undocking should be risky with no paybacks!
Ban Frigate Pirate Ships from Novice FW Plexs.
Have more then 1 Clone in a station without loss.
|
elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
980
|
Posted - 2015.12.23 00:51:47 -
[248] - Quote
Bobman Smith wrote:...You make a good point about using acronyms on public fourms and I'll make the effort to reduce them going forwards.
But the rest of what you said does not make any sense... I'm trying to reverse engineer the logic but get stumped with trying to enter the value "pokemon" as its been referenced twice. Is there a guide I missed? Some activity in Eve I have not heard about? Please enlighten me your grace, as I'm having difficulties decoding your point...
I was trying to make a word-play. Since everyone here is so hellbend on nerfing my laserboat I was proposing a 99.991% weapon damage penalty at which time the only thing they would be doing is poking someone but not doing what they should be doing. Is poking an Ibis with one hp damage enough, so that they are not considered "overpowered"?
Hence the pokemons, the new name for destroyers.
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
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Johnny Riko
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
102
|
Posted - 2015.12.28 04:41:26 -
[249] - Quote
I don't think they seem that OP. It seems more that they suit the current meta. Mobile ships that can deal damage from distance while kiting are the flavour of the month. I find a garmur far more oppressive in small gang. Perhaps the svipul needs a slight tweaking, but the other ships seem ok.
I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
|
Atomeon
The Scope Gallente Federation
63
|
Posted - 2015.12.28 09:59:37 -
[250] - Quote
How about make them really T3, when you die in it you lose skill points? Thats the penalty for T3s so far. |
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Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
920
|
Posted - 2016.01.02 07:48:28 -
[251] - Quote
It's 2016. Can we nerf the Svipul yet? |
elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
1016
|
Posted - 2016.01.02 14:03:59 -
[252] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:It's 2016. Can we nerf the Svipul yet?
They are still at holidays - so are you. Give it a few weeks, they will do it.
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
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Ares Desideratus
EVE OF EVELUTION
322
|
Posted - 2016.01.03 04:45:01 -
[253] - Quote
Restricting ships to fitting size-specific prop mods is a terrible idea because it homogenizes fitting choices while accomplishing nothing in terms of balance. None of the T3Ds are OP because of oversized prop mods, and oversized prop mods are an interesting and unique aspect of ship fitting that deserves to be left in the game. Oversized prop fits in general are not OP and are not necessarily a bad thing, it's just that some ships that happen to be OP also happen to be good with oversized props. Taking oversized props away is just unnecessary restriction on player creativity. |
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
711
|
Posted - 2016.01.04 15:21:34 -
[254] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:Restricting ships to fitting size-specific prop mods is a terrible idea because it homogenizes fitting choices while accomplishing nothing in terms of balance. None of the T3Ds are OP because of oversized prop mods, and oversized prop mods are an interesting and unique aspect of ship fitting that deserves to be left in the game. Oversized prop fits in general are not OP and are not necessarily a bad thing, it's just that some ships that happen to be OP also happen to be good with oversized props. Taking oversized props away is just unnecessary restriction on player creativity.
I agree. As a disclaimer, i do not use oversized AB t3ds. That being said, i do use oversized AB BCs as it actually allows BCs to have some form of range control to smaller ships. A 10mn AB BC is laughable (maybe 500m/s if you are lucky), where as a 100mn AB is around 800-1k m/s. Sacrifices are made and the ships still turn like a planet, but i have range control to dunk smaller ships like t3ds. 10mn t3ds on their own arent that hard to deal with either. Especially when you have neuts.
The issue specifically with t3ds is that their prop mode gives them a huge agility bonus and combined with links (which gives agility/speed bonuses) puts them over the top. Its not an oversized prop issue, its a prop mode bonus + links issue.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
|
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2452
|
Posted - 2016.01.04 18:11:21 -
[255] - Quote
How about increasing their sig to really make larger vessels (all with medium weapon systems) more effective at dealing with them? They seem intended to be the bane of most frigate hulls anyway but an increased sig let bigger weapon actually hit them or at least make it easyer. |
Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony The Wraithguard.
173
|
Posted - 2016.01.04 19:04:38 -
[256] - Quote
I think their size is ok -- 220 vulcans, dual 150 rails, light missiles can hit them just fine (and this is the armament you'd use to take on smaller targets anyway)
In fact, having excellent ships in game is not a dealbreaker, as long as it hurts when you lose them, and as long as all 4 tactical destroyers are balanced compared to their own class. That's why the Svipul, superior in both speed and scanres, could perhaps use a little toning down.
Signature size would make little difference. The reason you can't easily get rid of them, imo, is you can fit 24k EHP tanks on them -- and that's considerably more than an interdictor with the same pricetag and sigsize can mount.
Which, again, would be fine if they'd up the price x1.5 (around 90 mil). |
Ares Desideratus
EVE OF EVELUTION
327
|
Posted - 2016.01.04 23:36:57 -
[257] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
I agree. As a disclaimer, i do not use oversized AB t3ds. That being said, i do use oversized AB BCs as it actually allows BCs to have some form of range control to smaller ships. A 10mn AB BC is laughable (maybe 500m/s if you are lucky), where as a 100mn AB is around 800-1k m/s. Sacrifices are made and the ships still turn like a planet, but i have range control to dunk smaller ships like t3ds. 10mn t3ds on their own arent that hard to deal with either. Especially when you have neuts.
The issue specifically with t3ds is that their prop mode gives them a huge agility bonus and combined with links (which gives agility/speed bonuses) puts them over the top. Its not an oversized prop issue, its a prop mode bonus + links issue.
Yup. Oversized ABs are great on even T1 destroyers and battlecruisers. There are tradeoffs for fitting them, so it is OK. They are fun.
But T3Ds are a different ball game.
Compare the Confessor to the Succubus. Unlike the Confessor, the Succubus is actually bonused to ABs. Yet if they both fit 10mn ABs the Confessor is significantly more agile than the Succubus even if it is not in speed mode.
So, a Confessor, a destroyer hull, is more agile with an oversized AB than a pirate frigate that is specifically designed to work with ABs.
Succubus align time with 10mn = 19.5 seconds. Confessor align time with 10mn = 17.7 seconds. Confessor align time in speed mode = 11.8 seconds
An 11.8 second align time with an oversized AB would be ridiculous for a frigate, nevermind a T3D with 450 DPS.
Succubus is my favourite ship and I love flying an oversized AB on it, but since the Confessor came out it is completely overshadowed by it.
I'm not entirely sure what will be done about these ships but those are some thoughts for food I guess. |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
920
|
Posted - 2016.01.06 20:48:20 -
[258] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:[quote=Stitch Kaneland]
T3Ds are a different ball game.
Compare the Confessor to the Succubus. Unlike the Confessor, the Succubus is actually bonused to ABs. Yet if they both fit 10mn ABs the Confessor is significantly more agile than the Succubus even if it is not in speed mode.
So, a Confessor, a destroyer hull, is more agile with an oversized AB than a pirate frigate that is specifically designed to work with ABs.
T3Ds were a stupid idea for a ship class and are like this more or less across the board: they take a destroyer hull and pack HAC-like stats onto it. It's HACs all over again-- pay enough ISK and you can literally cheat the game's original set of power progression tradeoffs by gaining more stats without any commensurate decrease in agility, scan res, signature size, or damage application.
EVE was a much better game when increasing your on-paper stats (DPS, tank, etc) required actual sacrifices in other, non-wallet areas. Now it's just a game of, "how much money can I throw at these problems to make them go away?" While that approach may have been somewhat viable in the distant past, when only a small minority of players could afford to cheat the system (in terms of both ISK and skillpoints), the fact that these T2 and T3 platforms are now almost universally attainable has ruined the PvP meta completely. It's literally worse than the nano-HAC era. Sure, pre-nerf nano-HACs were a gigantic pain to deal with, but at least only the richest BoB elite PvPers actually flew them. Now you cruise through nullsec and 95% of the combat ships you see are Svipuls. They can run from anything they don't want to fight, they can fight almost anything in the game, and they're super oppressive to new players. It's absurd. |
Valacus
Streets of Fire
121
|
Posted - 2016.01.08 22:53:19 -
[259] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:[quote=Stitch Kaneland]
T3Ds are a different ball game.
Compare the Confessor to the Succubus. Unlike the Confessor, the Succubus is actually bonused to ABs. Yet if they both fit 10mn ABs the Confessor is significantly more agile than the Succubus even if it is not in speed mode.
So, a Confessor, a destroyer hull, is more agile with an oversized AB than a pirate frigate that is specifically designed to work with ABs. T3Ds were a stupid idea for a ship class and are like this more or less across the board: they take a destroyer hull and pack HAC-like stats onto it. It's HACs all over again-- pay enough ISK and you can literally cheat the game's original set of power progression tradeoffs by gaining more stats without any commensurate decrease in agility, scan res, signature size, or damage application. EVE was a much better game when increasing your on-paper stats (DPS, tank, etc) required actual sacrifices in other, non-wallet areas. Now it's just a game of, "how much money can I throw at these problems to make them go away?" While that approach may have been somewhat viable in the distant past, when only a small minority of players could afford to cheat the system (in terms of both ISK and skillpoints), the fact that these T2 and T3 platforms are now almost universally attainable has ruined the PvP meta completely. It's literally worse than the nano-HAC era. Sure, pre-nerf nano-HACs were a gigantic pain to deal with, but at least only the richest BoB elite PvPers actually flew them. Now you cruise through nullsec and 95% of the combat ships you see are Svipuls. They can run from anything they don't want to fight, they can fight almost anything in the game, and they're super oppressive to new players. It's absurd.
At least T3Cs have some ISK barrier to prevent people from flying them all the time, along with skill point loss, which sucks donkey balls, but T3Ds have none of the above. Insurance replaces your loss, destroyer skills take no time at all, small guns same story, and T3Ds are universally and completely better than all ship classes underneath them. You miss a pirate ewar bonus here and there, no 30km points and 24km webs, boo hoo, you get everything else you could ever ask for out of a ship. |
Kasia en Tilavine
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
74
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 10:18:12 -
[260] - Quote
So did the focus group happen? Did it die? Or what? Can one of the focus group members at least come give us a wave to indicate that this was/is progressing beyond "let's do this! +1" |
|
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
43943
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 03:17:24 -
[261] - Quote
Kasia en Tilavine wrote:So did the focus group happen? Did it die? Or what? Can one of the focus group members at least come give us a wave to indicate that this was/is progressing beyond "let's do this! +1" Yes it progressed beyond lets do this.
Towards the end of the year activity dropped off for a number of reasons. There was some good discussion before that however.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
1059
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 07:14:39 -
[262] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Kasia en Tilavine wrote:So did the focus group happen? Did it die? Or what? Can one of the focus group members at least come give us a wave to indicate that this was/is progressing beyond "let's do this! +1" Yes it progressed beyond lets do this. Towards the end of the year activity dropped off for a number of reasons. There was some good discussion before that however.
Mind sharing some details?
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
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rsantos
TEC-NOLOGY Sorry We're In Your Space Eh
48
|
Posted - 2016.02.03 01:41:45 -
[263] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Kasia en Tilavine wrote:So did the focus group happen? Did it die? Or what? Can one of the focus group members at least come give us a wave to indicate that this was/is progressing beyond "let's do this! +1" Yes it progressed beyond lets do this. Towards the end of the year activity dropped off for a number of reasons. There was some good discussion before that however.
They had lots of space beers and made new friends... Some had to be carried home. (totally space fiction) |
Sitting Bull Lakota
Careless Bears LLC
62
|
Posted - 2016.02.03 21:47:07 -
[264] - Quote
As long as no one from CCP is going to give us an update on the status of this focus group, can we have this thread moved to Upcoming Feature and Change Feedback Center with the rest of the abandoned threads?
This sticky is cluttering my forum hud. |
Suitonia
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
679
|
Posted - 2016.02.07 08:36:54 -
[265] - Quote
I recently published an Article on Crossing-Zebras that gives a good TL;DR of most of the relevent discussion in the T3D focus group.
http://crossingzebras.com/inside-the-tactical-destroyer-focus-group/
Contributer to Eve is Easy:
https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos
Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
|
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
4951
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 06:03:05 -
[266] - Quote
TLDR, nothing's happening (nor does it seem like it will anytime soon). Great article, though.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
|
Shalashaska Adam
Partial Safety
125
|
Posted - 2016.02.26 21:27:16 -
[267] - Quote
Are your own recommendations indicative of the focus group as a whole, can you say how likely they are to be the changes made? I couldn't agree more with your assessment of the problem, and your suggestion to rectify it seems to be the only course of action. Anything else would be just another failed band-aid, but with these changes the two ships would be fixed without being ruined. |
Loradan Illstari
Heretic Army I N F A M O U S
9
|
Posted - 2016.03.14 19:31:02 -
[268] - Quote
Another good useless article. Good because it's correct and productive in spirit, useless because CCP gives zero f**ks. They had the opportunity to rebalance T3Ds with the frigate logi patch and utterly failed to do so. They aren't gonna change that now. |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1498
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 21:47:10 -
[269] - Quote
Any news on this issue? When can we expect a balance pass on T3D?
The Tears Must Flow
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Speedkermit Damo
Hax.
511
|
Posted - 2016.04.20 09:08:46 -
[270] - Quote
End the Svipul menace!
Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
|
|
Speedkermit Damo
Hax.
511
|
Posted - 2016.04.20 10:14:26 -
[271] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:[quote=Vaju Enki]But I do sympathise with Pilots, who only fly one ship, probably very well, feeling rather, disheartened.
Lots of pilots only fly one ship it's true. The problem is that the one ship is more often than not a Svipul.
Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
|
Wanda Fayne
206
|
Posted - 2016.05.15 01:28:21 -
[272] - Quote
So this thread died? Hmmm,
Congratulations Mrs Svipul! You are now officially the #1 ISK killing ship in Eve Online.
In April 2016 alone, you factored in on over 100k kills. You outscore all of your classmates. Combined.
We would like to thank our long-time champion Mr Sabre for your tenure (now get out pleez) |
elitatwo
Eve Minions O.U.Z.O. Alliance
1215
|
Posted - 2016.05.16 01:58:34 -
[273] - Quote
Fozzie doesn't really care about ship balance. minmatar op, let's put battleship mass on a laser-frigate and call it a day.
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
|
Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
815
|
Posted - 2016.05.27 01:18:53 -
[274] - Quote
CCP, nobody gives a flying fk if you want to pad the next big release with a untested fix. This is a bloody overnight hot-fix solution, and the lack of ******* feedback is hilariously bad.
I really want to know the justifications involved here; 1. For ignoring player feedback and releasing something so absurdly broken. 2. For ignoring player feedback and not fixing said absurdity.
Jesus christ. If you can't do the job, hire someone who can so we don't need to suffer.
Players, just wait. The solution is going to be more powercreep for the ships suffering from this plague. And it is a plague. Released despite public outcry, and ignored as it spreads.
DO YOUR JOBS.
https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage
DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE T3D CANCER
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ISD Fractal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1250
|
Posted - 2016.06.27 13:21:27 -
[275] - Quote
Quote:31. Abuse of CCP employees and ISD volunteers is prohibited.
CCP operate a zero tolerance policy on abuse of CCP employees and ISD volunteers. This includes but is not limited to personal attacks, trolling, GÇ£outingGÇ¥ of CCP employee or ISD volunteer player identities, and the use of any former player identities when referring to the aforementioned parties.
Our forums are designed to be a place where players and developers can exchange ideas in a polite and friendly manner for the betterment of EVE Online. Players who attack or abuse employees of CCP, or ISD volunteers, will be permanently banned from the EVE Online forums across all their accounts with no recourse, and may also be subject to action against their game accounts. I have removed some comments.
ISD Fractal
Lieutenant
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
|
Valacus
Streets of Fire
133
|
Posted - 2016.08.24 00:45:49 -
[276] - Quote
Wanna hear a joke?
"[Focus Group] Tactical Destroyers"
Hahahaha, I'm hilarious. |
|
CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
14316
|
Posted - 2016.08.27 16:20:28 -
[277] - Quote
Hey folks. The summer vacation season is over, we've done enough internal planning here at CCP to get a good estimate of exactly when different things can fit into our roadmap. I've re-read all the logs from earlier in the year to make sure my memory of the earlier discussions is nice and fresh.
So we're officially restarting the T3D focus group, with a specific goal of preparing for a comprehensive rebalance in our big November release.
All the original focus group members have been invited to the new channel, and we may open up a search for new members depending on how many of the original members still have time to participate. CSM 11 members also have open invites to join.
Game Designer | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie
http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/
|
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Bobmon
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
185
|
Posted - 2016.08.27 16:23:19 -
[278] - Quote
Awesome!
EN24 CEO / Chief Editor
[@BobmonEve][2] - Third Party Service - #HABIT - Bobmon for CSM
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Aden Ordinii
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
21
|
Posted - 2016.08.27 16:31:36 -
[279] - Quote
Hi there... I know as a Hi Sec guy i am surely not to be allowed to voice anything , because Null Sec rules. But just saying, i use Fessors to hunt and kill gank Cats. its perfect for this job, range dps all good. Yes its a sniper, but it works it realy well in that . I hope some in that group can look it from the view of Hi sec guys, its even good at PvE. I dont know how the comp of this focus group is, or what sorts of playstyle they represent, but dont ignore Hi Sec as usual. |
Ashley Traynor
Lazerhawks
13
|
Posted - 2016.08.27 16:45:56 -
[280] - Quote
If any more people are needed, I'd love to help out in a focus group for T3D's. Pretty huge theorycrafting nerd here so I'm sure there's something new I could bring to the table :) |
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Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2821
|
Posted - 2016.08.27 16:51:31 -
[281] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey folks. The summer vacation season is over, we've done enough internal planning here at CCP to get a good estimate of exactly when different things can fit into our roadmap. I've re-read all the logs from earlier in the year to make sure my memory of the earlier discussions is nice and fresh.
So we're officially restarting the T3D focus group, with a specific goal of preparing for a comprehensive rebalance in our big November release.
All the original focus group members have been invited to the new channel, and we may open up a search for new members depending on how many of the original members still have time to participate. CSM 11 members also have open invites to join.
you keep flirting like this and we're gona end up in bed together.
Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
|
Joffy Aulx-Gao
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
101
|
Posted - 2016.08.27 17:06:28 -
[282] - Quote
Joffy reporting in sir,
I'm the T3 Dessie pilot for the A Band Apart Alliance Tournament team, so far this year i've flown a T3 Dessie in 80 practice matches, i've optimized all our T3 Dessie fits to the smallest detail. I will also collect info from rest of A Band Apart to see what ideas we can come up with.
I'm a lowsec pirate, diplo of A Band Apart and a CSM candidate
CSM Campaign
CSM Interview
|
Casper24
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
6
|
Posted - 2016.08.27 17:28:38 -
[283] - Quote
If there are spots open - id like to be considered for this group please. Flew the T3d for Warlords of the Deep exclusively last year, and being a small gang/solo Amamake pilot, have fought against it in about every small ship there is.
smack allowed in english only
|
Mr Hyde113
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
300
|
Posted - 2016.08.27 17:29:11 -
[284] - Quote
WAKE UP FROM HIBERNATION
Mr Hyde - CSM XI Permanent Attendee
Youtube Channel
Twitter
|
Le Mittani
SergalJerk Test Alliance Please Ignore
17
|
Posted - 2016.08.27 17:44:58 -
[285] - Quote
so what are the odds that fozzie actually listens to the group this time? |
Shalashaska Adam
Partial Safety
199
|
Posted - 2016.08.27 17:46:17 -
[286] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey folks. The summer vacation season is over, we've done enough internal planning here at CCP to get a good estimate of exactly when different things can fit into our roadmap. I've re-read all the logs from earlier in the year to make sure my memory of the earlier discussions is nice and fresh.
So we're officially restarting the T3D focus group, with a specific goal of preparing for a comprehensive rebalance in our big November release.
All the original focus group members have been invited to the new channel, and we may open up a search for new members depending on how many of the original members still have time to participate. CSM 11 members also have open invites to join.
Bumping this article, still the only thing that needs to be considered: http://crossingzebras.com/inside-the-tactical-destroyer-focus-group/
With this thread having been delayed by so much, I am getting the feeling that CCP are going to just give a heavy handed bat to get this over and done with, ignoring the benefit of the new monthly release schedual. While the svipul could use a couple of alterations, destroying the current fittings or stats of the fessor is completely unnessasery.
In short, change the svipul and fessor speed modes to match those of the hecate and jackdaw. Change the base speed bonus into a mwd only bonus, reduce their base speed and give them the 66% agility bonus instead. Bam, fessor entirely fixed with nothing else nessasery, svipul 80% fixed, with maybe another small change to it in the following release.
Hardly any work needed. |
Frigate Menace
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2016.08.27 17:52:54 -
[287] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey folks. The summer vacation season is over, we've done enough internal planning here at CCP to get a good estimate of exactly when different things can fit into our roadmap. I've re-read all the logs from earlier in the year to make sure my memory of the earlier discussions is nice and fresh.
So we're officially restarting the T3D focus group, with a specific goal of preparing for a comprehensive rebalance in our big November release.
All the original focus group members have been invited to the new channel, and we may open up a search for new members depending on how many of the original members still have time to participate. CSM 11 members also have open invites to join.
Without the hated Tactical Destroyers to suffocate us, once more shall the Frigates roam free to beat down the hated Battleship oppressors. Truly, a glorious day for our kind.
An alternate character of a CSM member sympathetic to the persecuted Frigate race. Anyone taking this account seriously is a damnable fool.
|
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1256
|
Posted - 2016.08.27 17:52:55 -
[288] - Quote
the weapon tiericide sounds great. t2 ammo for all weapons, spec skill for all weapons. maybe make t2 ammo way less important and do falloff bonus/penalty on t1 ammo also so there's more than 2 ammo types for falloff weapons |
Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross Sev3rance
243
|
Posted - 2016.08.27 18:33:14 -
[289] - Quote
I have hated the constant stream of ship nerfs coming in over the past year.
However in this case, IMO you should beat those ******* with the nerf bat until they're black and blue. They need significant nerfs to 1) Speed, 2) Scan Res (insta-svipul is cancer), and 3) Inertia (b/c wtf, instawarping T3Ds). |
Moac Tor
Cyber Core Stain Confederation
700
|
Posted - 2016.08.27 18:40:55 -
[290] - Quote
It is only really the Svipul, and Confessor to a lesser degree, that need nerfing (mainly due to their high speed and low sig combination). The Jackdaw and Hecate are in a good place IMO.
Rather than a massive nerf hammer being bought down as some are suggesting, I'm hoping to see a sensible approach to balancing the T3 destroyers.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
|
|
Mr Hyde113
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
300
|
Posted - 2016.08.27 18:52:00 -
[291] - Quote
Frigate Menace wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey folks. The summer vacation season is over, we've done enough internal planning here at CCP to get a good estimate of exactly when different things can fit into our roadmap. I've re-read all the logs from earlier in the year to make sure my memory of the earlier discussions is nice and fresh.
So we're officially restarting the T3D focus group, with a specific goal of preparing for a comprehensive rebalance in our big November release.
All the original focus group members have been invited to the new channel, and we may open up a search for new members depending on how many of the original members still have time to participate. CSM 11 members also have open invites to join. Without the hated Tactical Destroyers to suffocate us, once more shall the Frigates roam free to beat down the hated Battleship oppressors. Truly, a glorious day for our kind.
T3Ds are part of the Frigate Menace. Soon Battleships will roam the skies again and smite your kind like the locusts you are. #MakeBattleshipsGreatAgain
Mr Hyde - CSM XI Permanent Attendee
Youtube Channel
Twitter
|
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1256
|
Posted - 2016.08.27 19:19:40 -
[292] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:It is only really the Svipul, and Confessor to a lesser degree, that need nerfing (mainly due to their high speed and low sig combination). The Jackdaw and Hecate are in a good place IMO.
Rather than a massive nerf hammer being bought down as some are suggesting, I'm hoping to see a sensible approach to balancing the T3 destroyers.
jackdaw can easily get way too much tank for a destroyer |
Planet 6
Know your Role League of Unaligned Master Pilots
3
|
Posted - 2016.08.27 20:49:31 -
[293] - Quote
if there any spots open, id like to join :) |
Lugia3
Tri-gun
1514
|
Posted - 2016.08.27 22:06:16 -
[294] - Quote
I will make sure t3ds get the d if you vote for me.
"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
|
Miner Hottie
No Vacancies No Vacancies.
183
|
Posted - 2016.08.27 23:33:26 -
[295] - Quote
"Thousands of Oncologists protested in the streets of Reykjavik as CCP Fozzie tentatively announced a working trial for a cure for cancer involving the severe beating of a internet space ship with an odd shaped bat named nerf."
Seriously, all of the T3Ds need to have a bigger base sig radius and the Svipul needs less scan resolution in Sharpshooter. A few of the hulls probably need their base PG/CPU tweaked (lowered) so there is a bit more compromise going on in fitting them.
It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.
|
Xavier Azabu
Tarantism Paisti Syndicate
52
|
Posted - 2016.08.27 23:43:03 -
[296] - Quote
I'd like to join this focus group. I have been involved in the discussion since post #22. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6085844#post6085844 I have experience with and against t3ds in the field. |
Xavier Azabu
Tarantism Paisti Syndicate
52
|
Posted - 2016.08.27 23:45:39 -
[297] - Quote
Miner Hottie wrote:"Thousands of Oncologists protested in the streets of Reykjavik as CCP Fozzie tentatively announced a working trial for a cure for cancer involving the severe beating of a internet space ship with an odd shaped bat named nerf."
Seriously, all of the T3Ds need to have a bigger base sig radius and the Svipul needs less scan resolution in Sharpshooter. A few of the hulls probably need their base PG/CPU tweaked (lowered) so there is a bit more compromise going on in fitting them.
Svipul scan resolution is not an issue. In order to make it insta-lock it sacrifices almost all of its tank and can be defeated by a T1 frigate with a 1mn ab. It's alpha/dps is the real issue. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1256
|
Posted - 2016.08.28 00:01:44 -
[298] - Quote
more like remove all scan res bonuses from sharpshooter modes, and have a long think about what actual value scan res sensor boosting adds to the game |
Dunk Dinkle
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
132
|
Posted - 2016.08.28 00:02:44 -
[299] - Quote
Svipuls delenda est! |
Roenok Baalnorn
Sadistically Sinister
306
|
Posted - 2016.08.28 00:13:49 -
[300] - Quote
I think the T3s are fine as they are. The most common reason given for a nerf is " look at zkill, the svipul is the top ship always". That is true. But its the top ship because it has a fast base lock and good range meaning it can KM whore easily. Just because it can KM whore doesnt mean it needs a nerf.
When i compared ships k:l ratios all of the T3Ds had a similar K:L ratio as most other pvp ships. Some faction ships have 3 times the average K:L ratio yet no one complains about these. Its not that T3Ds are hard to kill and dont die. They die in the same ratio as most other ships. They are popular because they are fast, have good scan res, and decent range. They are a balance between a frigate and a cruiser.
I dont understand what people find so difficult about killing one? Remove logi support and they are kind of squishy. And apparently the stats agree with me because they die just as much as the next pvp ship, ratio wise.
What this entire discussion on T3Ds is, is a knee jerk reaction .. Instead of figuring out how to counter a T3D, and their are many ways, its better to just whine about it until CCP swings the nerf bat at it. Then we dont have to make any effort to try to counter T3Ds.
Destroyers for a long time were the LOL of ships. They were so worthless i didnt even bother to train destroyers pass level 3 for nearly 8 years. Only dictors were of any use. Now destroyers are in a decent place and people want to swing the nerf bat at them because they are to lazy to make an effort to counter them.
You want to counter a svipul gang? Bring T2 cruisers. They will melt away from existence. If you want to balance T3Ds for solo play STFU and STFD ,Eve isnt about solo play its about fleet pvp.
Thats my two cents, flame on. |
|
FT Cold
R3d Fire Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
67
|
Posted - 2016.08.28 01:35:26 -
[301] - Quote
Good news, pretty happy about this.
Make sure to nerf them hard enough so that in each role they're close enough to a t1 hull fit for that specific function. If you buy one, you should be buying versatility not just brute power. |
Miner Hottie
No Vacancies No Vacancies.
183
|
Posted - 2016.08.28 01:51:55 -
[302] - Quote
Xavier Azabu wrote:Miner Hottie wrote:"Thousands of Oncologists protested in the streets of Reykjavik as CCP Fozzie tentatively announced a working trial for a cure for cancer involving the severe beating of a internet space ship with an odd shaped bat named nerf."
Seriously, all of the T3Ds need to have a bigger base sig radius and the Svipul needs less scan resolution in Sharpshooter. A few of the hulls probably need their base PG/CPU tweaked (lowered) so there is a bit more compromise going on in fitting them. Svipul scan resolution is not an issue. In order to make it insta-lock it sacrifices almost all of its tank and can be defeated by a T1 frigate with a 1mn ab. It's alpha/dps is the real issue.
Stick enough remote sebos on a Svipul in SS mode and it can tank gate guns for a while.
It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.
|
Capqu
Half Empty Play Hard Pray Harder
1203
|
Posted - 2016.08.28 03:21:02 -
[303] - Quote
lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
|
Atum' Ra
Nomen-illis-Legio Legion of xXDEATHXx
99
|
Posted - 2016.08.28 08:23:33 -
[304] - Quote
Mr Hyde113 wrote:Frigate Menace wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey folks. The summer vacation season is over, we've done enough internal planning here at CCP to get a good estimate of exactly when different things can fit into our roadmap. I've re-read all the logs from earlier in the year to make sure my memory of the earlier discussions is nice and fresh.
So we're officially restarting the T3D focus group, with a specific goal of preparing for a comprehensive rebalance in our big November release.
All the original focus group members have been invited to the new channel, and we may open up a search for new members depending on how many of the original members still have time to participate. CSM 11 members also have open invites to join. Without the hated Tactical Destroyers to suffocate us, once more shall the Frigates roam free to beat down the hated Battleship oppressors. Truly, a glorious day for our kind. T3Ds are part of the Frigate Menace. Soon Battleships will roam the skies again and smite your kind like the locusts you are. #MakeBattleshipsGreatAgain
Long live the paradigm : bigger is better and stronger |
Yarosara Ruil
545
|
Posted - 2016.08.28 09:34:25 -
[305] - Quote
Buff the Jackdaw, nerf the Svipul. Focus on that!
Completely not biased at all. |
Titus Cole Dooley
18
|
Posted - 2016.08.28 10:58:00 -
[306] - Quote
Please leave the Jackdaw alone. |
Roenok Baalnorn
Sadistically Sinister
310
|
Posted - 2016.08.28 12:44:17 -
[307] - Quote
Miner Hottie wrote:Xavier Azabu wrote:Miner Hottie wrote:"Thousands of Oncologists protested in the streets of Reykjavik as CCP Fozzie tentatively announced a working trial for a cure for cancer involving the severe beating of a internet space ship with an odd shaped bat named nerf."
Seriously, all of the T3Ds need to have a bigger base sig radius and the Svipul needs less scan resolution in Sharpshooter. A few of the hulls probably need their base PG/CPU tweaked (lowered) so there is a bit more compromise going on in fitting them. Svipul scan resolution is not an issue. In order to make it insta-lock it sacrifices almost all of its tank and can be defeated by a T1 frigate with a 1mn ab. It's alpha/dps is the real issue. Stick enough remote sebos on a Svipul in SS mode and it can tank gate guns for a while. So can 30 other ships.
|
Aijle Mijleroff
Infernal Laboratory Infernal Octopus
59
|
Posted - 2016.08.28 14:59:53 -
[308] - Quote
I hope that the CCP will dismiss Fozzie before he destroy all world of eve-online |
Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
840
|
Posted - 2016.08.28 15:41:10 -
[309] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey folks. The summer vacation season is over, we've done enough internal planning here at CCP to get a good estimate of exactly when different things can fit into our roadmap. I've re-read all the logs from earlier in the year to make sure my memory of the earlier discussions is nice and fresh.
So we're officially restarting the T3D focus group, with a specific goal of preparing for a comprehensive rebalance in our big November release.
All the original focus group members have been invited to the new channel, and we may open up a search for new members depending on how many of the original members still have time to participate. CSM 11 members also have open invites to join. You should've done this with Barges/Exhumers and Orca/Rorqual aswell before breaking everything there! |
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2800
|
Posted - 2016.09.01 11:35:24 -
[310] - Quote
... one thing, please keep the base speed push in prop mode for Svipul and Confessor. Because it gives you game play options -> GTFO when scrammed if skilled and the instawarp trick (which needs also some player skill and focus). The Hecate is that bad balanced ship, because first: it's dead when scrammed/webbed and second instawarps without player skill involved.
... though I like the idea of splitting the DPS bonus into sharpshooter mode.
I'm my own NPC alt.
|
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Croc Evil
Croc's Family Business
13
|
Posted - 2016.09.05 06:06:30 -
[311] - Quote
I had idea for tactical destroyers for some time. So I will just spit it out at may be ....
As Strategic cruisers has unique balancing with skill point loss, I was thinking about something unique for T3D's. What comes into my mind was:
- When T3D is destroyed, pilot will be podded right with its ship.
- Give T3Ds bonuses to implant and booster effects
- Make T3Ds to rely on implants and boosters to be effective
That should create appropriate risk/reward ratio and also new fitting/combat possibilities (with mode switching quite a few). Because of potentialy high value lost other type of ships now hindered by T3Ds should become interesting again (mainly Assault Frigates)
If this idea has already been mentioned, then just count this post as thumb up for it
|
Lexx Devi
Freeport . 7
1
|
Posted - 2016.09.06 17:53:42 -
[312] - Quote
Hmmm. Seems someone is making it to difficult. May be CCP or May be players having issues adapting to their foe. Never the less, How about making it easier to separate ships classes?
Scale all ships speed +20-50% Normalize Damage vs. Range/tracking
Example:
Frigs 80-150 DPS // 7000-10000/ms Destroyers 130-280 DPS // 5000-7000/ms Cruisers 260-530 DPS // 4000-5000/ms BattleCruisers 400-780 DPS // 2500-4000/ms Battleship 750-1100 DPS // 1000-2500/ms
The reason im spit-balling this is to note that *Its easier to separate between More significantly different ships.
Personally i don't agree to a balanced universe, Discord! & The PL'arger hunts the Weaker. That is what EvE is always going to be.
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2838
|
Posted - 2016.09.13 08:32:12 -
[313] - Quote
For those not following the logs, here are the discussed T3D / Svipul changes: https://focusgrouplogs.tech.ccp.is/tactical-destroyers/2016-09-11/
All the proposed nerfs are in ... big nerf hammer ... have to think about the consequences.
I'm my own NPC alt.
|
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2839
|
Posted - 2016.09.13 10:47:44 -
[314] - Quote
After some thoughts, my proposed additions
- compensate for the removal of the mode-switch-trick for Svipul and Confessor with an improved bonus to agility, but make it so, it only brings it down to instawarp with at least one nanofiber fitted (compromise on tank)
- make ewar resistance bonus accross the board, damp, TD, TP and ECM
- the loss of scan res is a big hit, I would like to see a compensation by lifting the scanres to the level of other destroyers like the Thrasher. This does not make it overpowered, but 350 scanres (base) on a Svipul is ridiculous compared to ~500 for other destroyers.
Have to test it once it hits SiSi ... my concern is as stated already above, that the Svipul lose its status as a (true) solo roaming PvP + PvE at the same time capable ship, which is a very unique position. I'm not sure why this would be intended ... with fleet boosts changed, "solo" Svipuls, and with the scanres change, camp Svipuls should not be a bigger issue anymore than with other ships.
I'm my own NPC alt.
|
Shalashaska Adam
Partial Safety
200
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 04:11:09 -
[315] - Quote
I don't suppose this feedback thread is being read at all, as per usual.
All these drastic changes are not nessasery, especially for the Confessor.
Look at what makes the Hecate balanced, it's purely the difference in speed mode.
Damage does not need to be moved to the sharpshooter mode, that isn't nessasery.
Scanres does not need to be taken away from the sharpshooter mode, that isn't nessasery.
All the Confessor needs is a rework of the speed mode bonuses to match the Hecates.
Much too much time spent talking about it is creating a bloated list of changes, which will probably ruin a good ship.
Nothing needs doing to the sharpshooter mode of the Confessor.
Change the propulsion mode to match the Hecate.
The Hecate has the same sharpshooter mode as the Confessor, and it is completely balanced, it is clearly not the issue. |
Yana Shakti
Tronhadar
37
|
Posted - 2016.10.09 02:11:26 -
[316] - Quote
motie one wrote:If frigates can escape gate camps, why should a tactical destroyer, in propulsion mode not be able to follow? Gate camps are not entitled to be provided easy kills. If players use the right ship, fitted well, and flown well, they ARE entitled to pass them.
+1
Allowing properly fitted T3Ds to (often) bypass gate-camps improves game play. It permits solo players to roam more freely into otherwise inaccessible regions. And it forces campers to put actual effort into hunting and killing intruders. I'd say that's pretty healthy.
Bear in mind that nullbears use T3Ds for system defense. Pushing solo roamers back toward using the Ranis/Crusader is not really a good idea. They're not as viable as they used to be. Today, a solo Crusader simply dies to the defenders' own Svipul (who doesn't have to worry about gate-camps since he's on home turf).
So in general, please give solo roamers sufficient options to keep it interesting. I'm not saying it should be easy to roam out by yourself. But it should be possible and the results should be meaningful. |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18275
|
Posted - 2016.10.09 04:08:24 -
[317] - Quote
There should be fairly easy ballpark goals with any change.
T3D must not invalidate the other destroyers, T1 destroyers must be a viable option.
T3D should not invalidate all frigates, It must possible for a AF and even T1 frigates to stand some sort of chance vs a T3D.
T3D should not be getting cruiser level stats at all.
|
13kr1d1
Hedion University Amarr Empire
178
|
Posted - 2016.10.09 07:57:11 -
[318] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:There should be fairly easy ballpark goals with any change.
T3D must not invalidate the other destroyers, T1 destroyers must be a viable option.
T3D should not invalidate all frigates, It must possible for a AF and even T1 frigates to stand some sort of chance vs a T3D.
T3D should not be getting cruiser level stats at all.
The infinite growth factor of stats and cost for "better" tiers of ship is a huge problem. They need to be able to do things the other hulls can't without necessarily being stronger. Either that, or T1 stuff starts needing to be buffed for pure combat or the ability to take on more generalized roles, and T2/3 start being specialized tasks.
Yana Shakti wrote:motie one wrote:If frigates can escape gate camps, why should a tactical destroyer, in propulsion mode not be able to follow? Gate camps are not entitled to be provided easy kills. If players use the right ship, fitted well, and flown well, they ARE entitled to pass them. +1 Allowing properly fitted T3Ds to (often) bypass gate-camps improves game play. It permits solo players to roam more freely into otherwise inaccessible regions. And it forces campers to put actual effort into hunting and killing intruders. I'd say that's pretty healthy. Bear in mind that nullbears use T3Ds for system defense. Pushing solo roamers back toward using the Ranis/Crusader is not really a good idea. They're not as viable as they used to be. Today, a solo Crusader simply dies to the defenders' own Svipul (who doesn't have to worry about gate-camps since he's on home turf). So in general, please give solo roamers sufficient options to keep it interesting. I'm not saying it should be easy to roam out by yourself. But it should be possible and the results should be meaningful.
No. Stop it. The game already is easy mode since jump freighters
"solo play" is NOT a selling point of an MMO. Go play Wing Commander Privateer if you want to explore space and only get shot at by rats.
If anything, the fact that the ONe person here, you, demands solo play over ALL of the people that committed to the gatecamp, says YOU are at fault because your desires are not shared by the majority at that moment.
Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18276
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Posted - 2016.10.09 08:37:52 -
[319] - Quote
13kr1d1 wrote:
T1 frigs really should never be able to stand up to T1 dessies, let alone T2 or T3. Dessies are meant to wipe out frigs, not be "a slightly tougher frig with a huge sig penalty". If I had to put it in numbers, I'd say that supposing equal abilities and equal fittings and skills learned, a 20 on 20 frig fight should end with 0 on one side and maybe 3 on the other. 20 frigs vs 20 dessies should end with 14 dessies left, if not more.
T1 frigates must stand a chance vs destroyers. Right now it is possible to take on and kill a saber with many t1 frigates if the frigate pilot is skilled enough. I'm not saying it should be easy, just possible to do. An assault frigate should put up a fight vs destroyers and they do until it comes to T3D. |
Yana Shakti
Tronhadar
37
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Posted - 2016.10.09 09:43:28 -
[320] - Quote
13kr1d1 wrote:T1 frigs really should never be able to stand up to T1 dessies.
Come visit lowsec where solo T1 frigs routinely kill solo dessies and some solo AFs still sometimes kill T3Ds. Skill >> hull. This unpredictability must remain or fights become dull.
13kr1d1 wrote:"solo play" is NOT a selling point of an MMO.
Erm... You might be surprised at how many competent solo players there are in EVE. They're not a 'community' any more than cats can form herds. But listening to F1 pushers rag on solo players gets my goat.
13kr1d1 wrote:...YOU are at fault because your desires are not shared by the majority at that moment.
Perhaps my most memorable fight while gate-camping was with a dual prop Dram that jumped into us, warped out, came back and killed a few of our number. I was glad to see a solo player able to separate and nail those that deserved to be nailed. My point was that some ship (perhaps not the Dram) should still fill that role.
Also, what's this group-think nonsense? |
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ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1679
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Posted - 2016.10.14 21:02:14 -
[321] - Quote
I have removed an off-topic post. Please be respectful to everyone and constructive with the topic at hand if you want to participate.
ISD Decoy
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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GROUND XERO
Rennfeuer Project.Mayhem.
10
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Posted - 2016.10.24 06:54:51 -
[322] - Quote
So again... why messing with that many changes???? Noone would change that many stuff to see if it fixes something !!!!
- you might end up having more issues than you had before - of course i-¦m happy there are ppl doing a focus group to deal with issues! SO THX to all giving their time!!! - again .... it is a T3 dessi so it should be stronger than a t2 and stronger than a t1 keep that in mind for you tons of changes - right now an assault frig is able to kill a T3D of course not when fitted well and flown correctly (and of course if there are no offgrid links!!!) https://zkillboard.com/kill/56459352/ and if you watch killboards and search through the losses of all T3Ds you will see there are a lot of solo losses against frigs t1 dessis etc. (even Inties :_)) - a lot of cruiser could kill a T3D one on one easily - the alpha of arty svipuls is high! but alpha of any arties is high
SO PLS DON`T MESS WITH ALL STATS!!!! DON`T ADD NEW ONCE!!!! DECREASE SINGLE STATS THAT ARE CAUSING THE ISSUE! |
Erik Kalkoken
VOLTAGE REGULATORS No Handlebars.
31
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Posted - 2016.10.26 02:25:35 -
[323] - Quote
Just seen the newest changes to the T3Ds on Sissi.
I really do not understand why there have to be so many changes to the ships. It feels like an over-reactions, which will lead to these awesome ships not being used anymore. They are pretty expensive compared to an AF and even T2 destroyer.
I understand the speed change to eliminate the insta-warp feature. that makes a lot of sense. But do you really need to nerf the T3D to the ground?
And where is the official communication (dev blog, forum post) about these changes? That people need to find out about this by looking on the test server is very odd. Looks to me that these changes were rushed.....
Here is a summary on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/59eu2c/sisi_t3_destroyer_bonus_and_stat_changes_here/
Alliance Facebok page - Check out my blog - Find me on zKillboard
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18367
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Posted - 2016.10.26 05:18:23 -
[324] - Quote
Erik Kalkoken wrote:Just seen the newest changes to the T3Ds on Sissi. I really do not understand why there have to be so many changes to the ships. It feels like an over-reactions, which will lead to these awesome ships not being used anymore. They are pretty expensive compared to an AF and even T2 destroyer. I understand the speed change to eliminate the insta-warp feature. that makes a lot of sense. But do you really need to nerf the T3D to the ground? And where is the official communication (dev blog, forum post) about these changes? That people need to find out about this by looking on the test server is very odd. Looks to me that these changes were rushed..... Here is a summary on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/59eu2c/sisi_t3_destroyer_bonus_and_stat_changes_here/
When you have a ship as overpowered as these this kind of change should be expected. It probably isn't enough. |
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
3055
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Posted - 2016.10.26 14:14:25 -
[325] - Quote
Two things I'm really not happy with ...
What is the reasoning to keep Jackdaw's and Hecate's effortless instawarp capability while you remove the mode-switch trick from Confessor and Svipul?
Also the new ewar resistence bonus is rather useless.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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