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Maduce Arnerette
Strelkov Industries
0
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Posted - 2015.09.22 19:05:24 -
[1] - Quote
I want to ask your guys opinions on something. In the space of 1 month, 2 frequent industrial players have rage-quit the game for reasons that boil down to what they describe as 'bad game mechanics' for industrialists.
So, my question is to you guys. What do you think of EVEs current climate for industrialists, regarding PvP. As both players were pushed to the brink of quitting because they lost a good portion of their assets.
Obviously, this (if it is an issue) is an important point to discuss. Because without industrialists, EVEs economy would struggle. Which spells bad news bears for the game.
(Please add constructive feedback) |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
3128
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Posted - 2015.09.22 19:12:51 -
[2] - Quote
Bad game mechanics is a very vague personal opinion. So you will need to elaborate on that to receive proper feedback.
For industry to thrive there MUST be PVP and thus to maintain competition industrial ships must fall under attack also.
If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
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Azda Ja
Green Skull LLC Bad Intention
4385
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Posted - 2015.09.22 19:17:19 -
[3] - Quote
Being constructive on something so vague isn't productive. Be more specific, because throwing a few buzzwords around and saying discuss at the end makes this seem like a troll.
Maduce Arnerette wrote: Obviously, this (if it is an issue) is an important point to discuss.
Obviously it's not so obvious if you can't tell if it's an issue or not.
Because sometimes you die. And sometimes we are why. GSLLC is Recruiting.
Grrr I tell you. Grrr.
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Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
129
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Posted - 2015.09.22 19:19:12 -
[4] - Quote
Maduce Arnerette wrote: Obviously, this (if it is an issue) is an important point to discuss. Because without industrialists, EVEs economy would struggle. Which spells bad news bears for the game.
Consider the following: The markets of EVE are absolutely saturated with goods of all kinds. Most are deflating as production outpaces demand. What about this situation indicates to you that industrialists are struggling? Would it not be the case that a strong indicator of "struggling," industrialists would be incredibly scarce goods, relative to demand, and rising prices across the board for goods these industrialists produce? |
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
14443
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Posted - 2015.09.22 19:20:43 -
[5] - Quote
There is no other difficulty, challenge, or other adversity in your profession save what other players bring to you. Without that, industry would literally just be an income faucet.
Not only do I think that what you're describing is okay, I would argue that it's still too easy, given the obscene safety that the new Citadels will provide.
And if you think the game's economy would "suffer" without the kind of people who quit if they have even any potential opposition from other players, it just shows that you don't know a whole lot about this game's market. The beauty of capitalism is that, for essential and desired services, demand will always exist, and supply will always rise to meet the demand. Even if you quit because other people are allowed to shoot you in a PvP game, the next guy will just find his ventures more profitable as a result of your competition being removed.
You don't matter.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Mag's
the united
20231
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Posted - 2015.09.22 19:21:58 -
[6] - Quote
Obviously something is obvious about being obviously obvious. That's obvious.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Azda Ja
Green Skull LLC Bad Intention
4385
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Posted - 2015.09.22 19:22:35 -
[7] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Obviously something is obvious about being obviously obvious. That's obvious. Obviously.
Because sometimes you die. And sometimes we are why. GSLLC is Recruiting.
Grrr I tell you. Grrr.
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DaReaper
Net 7
2567
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Posted - 2015.09.22 19:31:45 -
[8] - Quote
mining has not changed.
reactions from pos' has not changed
refining changed some, but as a miner (my main professtion) i like the changes
building interface has changed, and imp is a hell of a lot easyer to deal with.
removal of slots in stations was a god damn blessing.
As a primary industrial player... wtf are you talking about?
OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!
Yes i am optimistic about eve.. i'm giving it till dec 31st 2016 before i doom n gloom
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Emiai
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2015.09.22 19:38:55 -
[9] - Quote
Is this thread about being ganked? |
Divine Entervention
Legion's Knights Of The Round Intrepid Crossing
617
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Posted - 2015.09.22 19:54:17 -
[10] - Quote
Are other industrialists suppose to jump into this thread and begin dogpiling these "bad game mechanics" onto the forums?
You made this up, huh?
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12443
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Posted - 2015.09.22 19:57:44 -
[11] - Quote
Emiai wrote:Is this thread about being ganked?
It has to be. I'll be it either involves bumping or hyperdunking.
Bad game mechanics now equal = "I lost something in an open world sanbox game known for it's ruthless killers". |
Lady Ayeipsia
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
959
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Posted - 2015.09.22 19:58:18 -
[12] - Quote
Emiai wrote:Is this thread about being ganked?
That would be my guess. They must likely were hauling more than 1 bil in a freighter through a common choke point system. Simple solution is to haul less. Yes, that means more trips but the added safety makes up for it.
Alternatively, they lost a POS or were robbed blind by a corpmate. For the former, get stuff our of a POS when a wardec occurs. If robbed, don't be so trusting.
That said, them quiting decreases competition and makes room for new blood that may bring new ideas to the table which will lead to more profit for all.
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Azda Ja
Green Skull LLC Bad Intention
4387
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Posted - 2015.09.22 20:09:02 -
[13] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Are other industrialists suppose to Supposed to. This is the new "I could care less" I've noticed in the last few weeks.
Sorry, it's been bothering me more and more lately.
Because sometimes you die. And sometimes we are why. GSLLC is Recruiting.
Grrr I tell you. Grrr.
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Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
352
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Posted - 2015.09.22 20:10:25 -
[14] - Quote
If enough industrialists quit, supply will drop, prices will rise and dabbling in industry will be much more worthwhile. The crux with mining or building stuff as opposed to shooting red crosses is, that the whole industry thing has no real ISK faucets. An industrialist can only get by if people are willing to pay for his products, wheras a mission runner just gets a fixed amount of isk (and loot) out of nowhere. So, Industry will always depend on the market.
As for the losing of assets: Could you explain how that came to pass? Because, obviously that's a very important point to discuss as well. Can you also explain, how you think the game mechanics are bad? |
Lady Ayeipsia
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
960
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Posted - 2015.09.22 20:18:19 -
[15] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:If enough industrialists quit, supply will drop, prices will rise and dabbling in industry will be much more worthwhile. The crux with mining or building stuff as opposed to shooting red crosses is, that the whole industry thing has no real ISK faucets. An industrialist can only get by if people are willing to pay for his products, wheras a mission runner just gets a fixed amount of isk (and loot) out of nowhere. So, Industry will always depend on the market.
As for the losing of assets: Could you explain how that came to pass? Because, obviously that's a very important point to discuss as well. Can you also explain, how you think the game mechanics are bad?
I would argue that the market is swinging back in favor of the industrialist as well. After the changes to invention, quantities of t2 items flooded the market, hindering profit. The far has since faded and we are starting to see a return to profitability for several t2 mods. |
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
8613
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Posted - 2015.09.22 21:03:39 -
[16] - Quote
Thank goodness industrialists are "having it hard". Time for some of those pompous blowhards to take a space-hike.
[b]----
CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off.[/b]
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26236
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Posted - 2015.09.22 21:11:20 -
[17] - Quote
DaReaper wrote:mining has not changed.
reactions from pos' has not changed
refining changed some, but as a miner (my main professtion) i like the changes
building interface has changed, and imp is a hell of a lot easyer to deal with.
removal of slots in stations was a god damn blessing.
As a primary industrial player... wtf are you talking about? Seconding this.
Industry has become more interesting. Yes, there are a few more dynamics that go into determining build cost, but since that information is completely transparent and immediately available, it's not something that makes it more difficult GÇö it just requires better planning and timing in what you bring to market when.
GǪand there are tools available to deal with that.
Maduce Arnerette wrote:So, my question is to you guys. What do you think of EVEs current climate for industrialists, regarding PvP. As both players were pushed to the brink of quitting because they lost a good portion of their assets. The current climate is pretty good. Ideally, there should be a lot more combat and large-scale destruction going on to provide a more lucrative market, but it's not exactly hard to cash in as it is. As for your two players, that sounds more like they flew what they couldn't afford to lose GÇö a fundamental user error that has nothing to do with industry.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
8613
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Posted - 2015.09.22 21:13:36 -
[18] - Quote
I mean, the fewer producers there are, the lower the supply of producible goods (presumably), and the higher the price. Good for Johnny-come-latelies :)
[b]----
CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off.[/b]
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Matrea D
Maggie's Magical Miners Maggie's Magical Malliance
6
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Posted - 2015.09.22 21:44:56 -
[19] - Quote
Maduce Arnerette wrote:I want to ask your guys opinions on something. In the space of 1 month, 2 frequent industrial players have rage-quit the game for reasons that boil down to what they describe as 'bad game mechanics' for industrialists.
So, my question is to you guys. What do you think of EVEs current climate for industrialists, regarding PvP. As both players were pushed to the brink of quitting because they lost a good portion of their assets.
Obviously, this (if it is an issue) is an important point to discuss. Because without industrialists, EVEs economy would struggle. Which spells bad news bears for the game.
(Please add constructive feedback)
I suspect your friends loaded up too many eggs into their freight basket, autopiloted through a known hotbed of gankers, and got upset when they returned to their keyboards to find a fresh clone.
Which puts the climate for industrialists who actually pay attention into the "very good" category.
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
608
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Posted - 2015.09.22 21:59:02 -
[20] - Quote
I agree that for this discussion to go anywhere, more info on what is defined as poor mechanics is required.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
45
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Posted - 2015.09.22 22:08:16 -
[21] - Quote
Azda Ja wrote:Being constructive on something so vague isn't productive. Be more specific, because throwing a few buzzwords around and saying discuss at the end makes this seem like a troll. Maduce Arnerette wrote: Obviously, this (if it is an issue) is an important point to discuss.
Obviously it's not so obvious if you can't tell if it's an issue or not.
Well, if it is an issue he's confident it's an obvious one.
A case for more AoE in EvE
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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
5563
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Posted - 2015.09.22 22:16:26 -
[22] - Quote
I can see some things being harder for industrialists. Mostly by things like invention being easier to do in bulk, which can lead to a saturated market.
That's about it.
(I'm not a fan of hyperdunking, but I mostly want to see the mechanics behind it change. Bumping is weird)
Woo! CSM X!
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
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Memphis Baas
576
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Posted - 2015.09.22 22:18:53 -
[23] - Quote
Maduce Arnerette wrote:'bad game mechanics' for industrialists. [...] EVEs current climate for industrialists, regarding PvP.
Industry gameplay has remained mostly unchanged. Realize that manufacturing stuff is coded as a different mechanic than taking the stuff to Jita to sell it. As an industrialist you sit in station completely safe and make stuff. As a trader, however, you're vulnerable to PVP.
And you've always been vulnerable to PVP. CCP hasn't really changed it all that much, and in fact they've made it quite a bit safer with the changes to the aggression / flags, and the toughening of Concord.
Players, however, have banded together recently, in the form of CODE. and the Hulkageddon folk to really bring PVP to high-sec. And ultimately their point is that this is a PVP game, not a PVE raiding game with crafting on the side. And PVP games function on the premise that some players will win the fights, and most of the rest will mostly lose and function as prey.
In my opinion, the industry people who are responsible for manufacturing huge amounts of ships for the various null alliances, including the capital ships that have to be made in space over several months of bringing supplies in (covertly so no one knows), I'm not hearing them complaining, they're just doing their jobs and producing the ships for their corpmates.
The high-sec industry-for-profit people, however, are seeing increased PVP attacks (just like everyone else in high-sec), and a whole lot of competition from other high-sec people who aren't willing to move. So economics apply and the profit goes down, and the PVP attacks continue to happen.
Think about it this way: you're supposed to learn the game and then move the f. out of high-sec so that other newbies who join the game after you have some room to learn the game too, so they can move out and make room for even newer newbies. But everybody is staying in high-sec.
CCP has made all sorts of changes to the industry to encourage this exodus that isn't happening, from increased ores in null to being able to "upgrade" your null space, to the upcoming citadels and other stations in null that will promote industry much more than high sec stations do.
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Violet Crumble
Funtime Factory
749
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Posted - 2015.09.22 22:21:11 -
[24] - Quote
Maduce Arnerette wrote:So, my question is to you guys. What do you think of EVEs current climate for industrialists, regarding PvP. As both players were pushed to the brink of quitting because they lost a good portion of their assets. Eve's climate for industrialists with regards to PvP is fine in my opinion.
I have no issues with there being some risk in my activities, especially hauling. It's much more fun than hit autopilot and go AFK. Having to be responsible for the safety of my things is one of the best aspects of the game.
If a couple of players lost a good portion of their assets in pvp situations, then it was less them being pushed to the brink and more them willing jumping. They should have made better choices so that they were never risking a good portion of their assets, especially if they couldn't afford to do so and/or taken plenty of precautions to protect themselves if they did need to risk a lot.
Funtime Factory - We put the fun back in funtime
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Webvan
All Kill No Skill
14002
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Posted - 2015.09.22 22:25:51 -
[25] - Quote
Maduce Arnerette wrote:So, my question is to you guys. What do you think of EVEs current climate for industrialists, regarding PvP. As both players were pushed to the brink of quitting because they lost a good portion of their assets. Straight up answer: doesn't everyone?? Why should Industrialists be protected from loss when everyone else just deals with their loss?
It's the same for everyone, no special treatment.
I'm in it for the money
Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26246
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Posted - 2015.09.22 22:57:49 -
[26] - Quote
Webvan wrote:Maduce Arnerette wrote:So, my question is to you guys. What do you think of EVEs current climate for industrialists, regarding PvP. As both players were pushed to the brink of quitting because they lost a good portion of their assets. Straight up answer: doesn't everyone?? Nah. I'd be amazed if I've lost even a very small portion of my total assets. But then, I'm a miserly and sneaky hoarderGǪ
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Webvan
All Kill No Skill
14002
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Posted - 2015.09.22 23:32:15 -
[27] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Nah. I'd be amazed if I've lost even a very small portion of my total assets. But then, I'm a miserly and sneaky hoarderGǪ Hmm? Same risk everyone else deals with as soon as you undock. If someone want's to sink billions into a BS and drive it like an ice cream truck through lowsec, and they lose a portion of everything they have, this is bad mechanics?
I'm in it for the money
Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26251
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Posted - 2015.09.22 23:34:34 -
[28] - Quote
Webvan wrote:Tippia wrote:Nah. I'd be amazed if I've lost even a very small portion of my total assets. But then, I'm a miserly and sneaky hoarderGǪ Hmm? Same risk everyone else deals with as soon as you undock. If someone want's to sink billions into a BS and drive it like an ice cream truck through lowsec, and they lose a portion of everything they have, this is bad mechanics? Oh, I meant that in response to GÇ£doesn't everyone [lose a good portion of their assets]GÇ¥ GÇö I may have read your reply wrong.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1524
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Posted - 2015.09.22 23:48:00 -
[29] - Quote
Yeah, basically CCP have not changed.
Not sure if the player base has either. Despite the impression that there are an increasing number of players wanting to get rid of the PvE industrial aspects of the game and move EVE more to a sort of death match PvP arena - those sort of guys were always around. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25117
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Posted - 2015.09.23 00:02:43 -
[30] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:Yeah, basically CCP have not changed.
Not sure if the player base has either. Despite the impression that there are an increasing number of players wanting to get rid of the PvE industrial aspects of the game and move EVE more to a sort of death match PvP arena - those sort of guys were always around. I'd say that any apparent swing towards more players wanting to get rid of the PvE aspects of the game is a reaction to the endless and ill informed "hisec should be safe", "if you want to PvP get out of highsec" and "think of the children" threads posted by those who aren't willing to accept Eve for the heartless dogs mother of a game that she is, or those that have been polluted by the themepark nature of some other games.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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