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CCP Logibro
C C P C C P Alliance
1118
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Posted - 2015.09.15 23:40:06 -
[1] - Quote
Hello
Due to the ongoing investigation into the Warlords of the Deep and The Camel Empire teams in Alliance Tournament XIII, all prizes distributed to either team have been frozen and moved for safekeeping. This is intended to protect any further prospective buyers of these items in case we find that rules have been broken in the tournament and we need to remove prizes. Prize items will be returned to their original locations depending on the outcome of the investigation. Anyone affected by this should have received a mail from myself.
Prizes distributed to other teams are not affected by this action.
If you have been impacted by this and have further questions, please file a support ticket under Community.
CCP Logibro // EVE Universe Community Team // Distributor of Nanites // Patron Saint of Logistics
@CCP_Logibro
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TheMercenaryKing
Ultimatum. The Bastion
361
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Posted - 2015.09.15 23:46:20 -
[2] - Quote
Wow....I must say CCP, I am actually surprised you cared to do something. Usually Meta gaming like this is approved. Granted I don't know if there was any "cheating" involved such as a true A or B team, but I did hear about two teams collaborating together.
I applaud you for preventing further trading until and investigation is done, and actually investigating. |
Entity
X-Factor Industries Synthetic Existence
868
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Posted - 2015.09.15 23:50:19 -
[3] - Quote
This is like a bad soap opera.
Gòª......Gòæ...GòöGòù.Gòæ.Gòæ.GòöGòù.GòªGòæ.GòöGòùGòöGòªGòùGòöGòù
Gòæ.GòöGòùGòöGòùGòöGòú.GòöGòùGòá..Gòá GòáGòùGòáGò¥.GòæGòá GòáGò¥GòæGòæGòæGòÜGòù
Gò¬GòÉGòÜGò¥Gòæ.GòÜGò¥.GòÜGò¥Gòæ..GòÜGò¥GòæGòæGòÜGò¥.Gò¬GòÜGò¥GòÜGò¥Gòæ.GòæGòÜGò¥
Got Item?
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Lelob
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
201
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Posted - 2015.09.15 23:57:55 -
[4] - Quote
pwned! |
michael chasseur
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
61
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Posted - 2015.09.15 23:59:00 -
[5] - Quote
Entity wrote:This is like a GREAT soap opera.
ftfy |
Current Habit
Rusty Pricks
54
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Posted - 2015.09.15 23:59:55 -
[6] - Quote
lmao good job camellords |
Andrew Jester
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
1413
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Posted - 2015.09.16 00:00:50 -
[7] - Quote
Lelob was right
If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy
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Rockstara
Blackwater USA Inc. Pandemic Legion
45
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Posted - 2015.09.16 00:02:13 -
[8] - Quote
queue the organ music |
Globby
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
243
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Posted - 2015.09.16 00:08:29 -
[9] - Quote
the alliance tournament was an honorable and elite fighting between the best of the best and i am personally appalled that anyone would ever break rules and cheat in the last honorable bastion in eve online. shame on you. |
ShamedOne
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
46
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Posted - 2015.09.16 00:09:17 -
[10] - Quote
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Ripard Teg
Snuff Box Snuffed Out
1057
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Posted - 2015.09.16 00:13:26 -
[11] - Quote
I joked on Reddit about another issue that if you tell EVE players where the Line That Must Not Be Crossed is, they'll edge up to that Line naked until one butt hair is over the line, then do an obscene dance right there until that butt hair is lasered off, all the while protesting their innocence that they have not crossed the Line.
This incident is surely proof of it.
If two NFL teams shared strategies, patterns, information about opposing teams, stadiums, the cost of back office staff, equipment, training facilities, and locker rooms -- everything but players and coaches, and those are shared during practice games and training -- with the sole strategy of getting those two teams to the Super Bowl at any cost, the NFL would surely come down on those two teams like a ton of bricks.
But technically, in EVE ATs this is not only totally legal (if it does comprise dancing naked right up against the Line), it gives the best chance of maximizing AT payout.
And all of that is assuming that Camel/Warlords didn't cross the line. Should be interesting to see where this ends up.
aka Jester, who apparently was once Deemed Worthy To Wield The Banhammer to good effect.
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everender
Market PVP XAXAXAXAXAA
3
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Posted - 2015.09.16 00:14:15 -
[12] - Quote
Ayyyyy rip chessurs nose operation |
W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
346
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Posted - 2015.09.16 00:18:48 -
[13] - Quote
michael chasseur wrote:Entity wrote:This is like a GREAT soap opera. ftfy
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Unagi Tatsumaki
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
0
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Posted - 2015.09.16 00:23:03 -
[14] - Quote
RIP
CCP, if they are found guilty are you going to remove thier prizes or redistribute them down the chain? If you remove them these may become the most expensive AT ship in existence. |
Cartheron Crust
Matari Exodus The Camel Empire
179
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Posted - 2015.09.16 00:39:51 -
[15] - Quote
First page ground floor.
Also an actual cool story from a bro. |
MissBolyai
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
142
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 00:59:08 -
[16] - Quote
I guess I should sell my fiend now while they're worth about 100x what they were earlier today.
WTS Fiend. PM me on the PL forums for details. |
Lee Thrace
Aliastra Gallente Federation
8
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Posted - 2015.09.16 01:05:59 -
[17] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote:Hello
Due to the ongoing investigation into the Warlords of the Deep and The Camel Empire teams in Alliance Tournament XIII, all prizes distributed to either team have been frozen and moved for safekeeping. This is intended to protect any further prospective buyers of these items in case we find that rules have been broken in the tournament and we need to remove prizes.
All based on a statement made by someone who waited until they had sold their own prizes to come forward. lol.
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Callduron
Kite Co. Space Trucking Brave Collective
622
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Posted - 2015.09.16 01:06:06 -
[18] - Quote
Ripard Teg wrote: And all of that is assuming that Camel/Warlords didn't cross the line.
Part of the accusation is that they did cross the line.
Quote:[8/29/2015 1:43:30 PM] Kadesh: dont get depressed m8. Our matches were staged. We ran 1st setups predefined which were decided by online coinflip [8/29/2015 1:43:44 PM] Kadesh: who lost 1st match was supposed to get ff/shallow vs heaven [8/29/2015 1:43:57 PM] Kadesh: so we had just 1 real fight which we lost [8/29/2015 1:44:32 PM] Kadesh: and 2nd was 0 chances for us to win
http://evenews24.com/2015/09/14/warlords-of-the-deep-pilot-admits-foul-play-in-alliance-tournament-xiii
I write http://stabbedup.blogspot.co.uk/
I post on reddit as /u/callduron.
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Ron Mexxico
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
102
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Posted - 2015.09.16 01:28:05 -
[19] - Quote
epic troll ccp |
4chan SlashPOL
Implying Jita Prices Vaguely Opsec.
8
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Posted - 2015.09.16 01:39:10 -
[20] - Quote
CCP makes me proud. I'm so glad that they are going to look into it. |
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Korben Bada
Dread Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.09.16 01:51:09 -
[21] - Quote
Good move. Do a proper investigation and if all clear hand them back.
What is CCP going to do if the allegations are true however? The rules are pretty unclear around these issues, even though what they did isn't in the competitive spirit of the tourny and a disservice to viewers and fans. |
Eklykti
Zion foundation Legion of xXDEATHXx
18
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Posted - 2015.09.16 01:53:11 -
[22] - Quote
So, when PL used the monkeysphere exploit, CCP said their logs show nothing. And now, whel PL **** overheated the fan, you are 'investigating'. |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
299
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 01:55:10 -
[23] - Quote
Eklykti wrote:So, when PL used the monkeysphere exploit, CCP said their logs show nothing. And now, whel PL **** overheated the fan, you are 'investigating'.
Monkeysphere is undetectable, there fore it is legal |
Elise Randolph
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
1332
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 02:03:53 -
[24] - Quote
Eklykti wrote:So, when PL used the monkeysphere exploit, CCP said their logs show nothing. And now, whel PL **** overheated the fan, you are 'investigating'.
EleGiggle
~
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Cobat Marland
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
16
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Posted - 2015.09.16 02:18:41 -
[25] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote:all prizes distributed to either team have been frozen and moved for safekeeping Good call
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Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
148
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Posted - 2015.09.16 02:19:43 -
[26] - Quote
Eklykti wrote:So, when PL used the monkeysphere exploit, CCP said their logs show nothing. And now, whel PL **** overheated the fan, you are 'investigating'.
It was never used in AT matches.
PL is an honourable alliance. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
40121
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 02:26:26 -
[27] - Quote
Entity wrote:This is like a bad soap opera. Bad soaps operas are the best ones though.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Hendrick Tallardar
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
452
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 02:31:00 -
[28] - Quote
como la arena a trav+¬s del reloj de arena, estos son los d+¡as de nuestras vidas
EVE Online Weekly & Monthly Nullsec Recaps | EVE Streams
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KIAGumpy
Free Throbbing Veinal Penii For Spacmens Dead Terrorists
3
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Posted - 2015.09.16 04:31:28 -
[29] - Quote
If no one gets banned can we at least have CCP just send 7 trillion isk to the Camlords Captain and not have a bullshit tourney every year instead? |
Krops Vont
90
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Posted - 2015.09.16 04:43:45 -
[30] - Quote
michael chasseur wrote:Entity wrote:This is like a GREAT soap opera. ftfy
plz
Also, will skins and other related stuff be postponed?
--==Services==--
Propaganda/Art/Media
Wormhole Finding & Selling
o/ Play for fun
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Stoffl
Snuff Box Snuffed Out
45
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Posted - 2015.09.16 05:57:51 -
[31] - Quote
WOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL O L O L O L O L O L O L O L |
Big Lynx
3914
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 06:00:15 -
[32] - Quote
Stoffl wrote:WOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL O L O L O L O L O L O L O L
L O L |
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
5835
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 06:28:39 -
[33] - Quote
CCP, I have to say, you haven't been doing the right thing very often lately, but this is a definite step in the right direction. The only comment I'd make is on this statement:
CCP Logibro wrote:in case we find that rules have been broken in the tournament and we need to remove prizes.
All I have to ask is... can you please not pretend there's any other possibility?
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
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Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
1056
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 06:48:09 -
[34] - Quote
ty Logibro. I'm surprised about your quick action but penalizing any form of cheat in AT is the only way you can go. |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
148
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 06:48:44 -
[35] - Quote
If there's no tangible evidence that foul play occurred that's demonstrable as fact, CCP have no other choice. They can't find a group guilty for something on the basis of an unverifiable log and some rabble-rousing. Though of course, if they find something then it's not a problem.
That said, I think they definately need to think carefully about rules on collusion for next year, if people can't trust the tournament then winning means nothing. |
Roti Rotineque
Dodixie Mining Corporation
0
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 06:56:28 -
[36] - Quote
Oh noez. I bought one price ship, and it is gone. Quitting eve right now... |
NYT
Aliastra Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 07:37:47 -
[37] - Quote
Lee Thrace wrote:
All based on a statement made by someone who waited until they had sold their own prizes to come forward. lol.
That's what Eve is all about: maximizing your own profit and then betraying your "friends."
All while being lauded as a hero, naturally! |
trenny jr
Hoplite Brigade Hashashin Cartel
12
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Posted - 2015.09.16 08:27:42 -
[38] - Quote
Callduron wrote:Ripard Teg wrote: And all of that is assuming that Camel/Warlords didn't cross the line.
Part of the accusation is that they did cross the line. Quote:[8/29/2015 1:43:30 PM] Kadesh: Man it sucks we lost if only we had that great guy trenny Jr with us [8/29/2015 1:43:44 PM] Kadesh: he could lead us do victory [8/29/2015 1:43:57 PM] Kadesh: so we just have to try harder [8/29/2015 1:44:32 PM] Kadesh: I like my own farts http://evenews24.com/2015/09/14/warlords-of-the-deep-pilot-admits-foul-play-in-alliance-tournament-xiii
Yea cos text logs are solid evidence. |
Johnny Twelvebore
The Tuskers The Tuskers Co.
68
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 08:32:17 -
[39] - Quote
Ripard Teg wrote:I joked on Reddit about another issue that if you tell EVE players where the Line That Must Not Be Crossed is, they'll edge up to that Line naked until one butt hair is over the line, then do an obscene dance right there until that butt hair is lasered off, all the while protesting their innocence that they have not crossed the Line.
I have no view either way on the issue in the OP but that quote from Ripard really gave me a good laugh while being spot on accurate too:)
Bloody hell, another eve blog! http://johnnytwelvebore.wordpress.com
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Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society Affirmative.
385
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 08:58:29 -
[40] - Quote
Ripard Teg wrote:I joked on Reddit about another issue that if you tell EVE players where the Line That Must Not Be Crossed is, they'll edge up to that Line naked until one butt hair is over the line, then do an obscene dance right there until that butt hair is lasered off, all the while protesting their innocence that they have not crossed the Line. [...] Uhm, Ripard, have you considered blogging again? It seems a lot of your recent comments on here, Reddit or FHC start with "I joked on reddit [...]" or such, so why not write it all in one place? ;) |
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R17a
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
25
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Posted - 2015.09.16 08:58:33 -
[41] - Quote
The crowd is traditionally requires the burning of witches. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1057
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 09:37:07 -
[42] - Quote
Announcing an investigation based on the flimsy evidence made public so far would be pretty stupid.
If it was anyone else doing this, I'd say they must have additional intel to justify this action. |
Atlan Dallocort
Know your Role EON Alliance
52
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Posted - 2015.09.16 10:05:43 -
[43] - Quote
Just give all the prices to PL and the universe is in balance again. Never beat PL! |
Mai Khumm
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
680
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 12:08:42 -
[44] - Quote
KIAGumpy wrote:If no one gets banned can we at least have CCP just send 7 trillion isk to the Camlords Captain and not have a bullshit tourney every year instead? You have at least make it look like they did something...
Toronto EVE Thread!
[email protected]
@Toronto_EVE
(ALT of CO-Host Azami Nevinyrall)
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suicide
The Exit Plan Test Alliance Please Ignore
28
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 12:44:14 -
[45] - Quote
They won.
Give them ships.
Sigh. |
W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
346
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 12:59:55 -
[46] - Quote
IF they dq camlords.
I dont like a flat moving up the order (i.e pl 1, exodus 2, tusker 3.5, nulli 3.5). It isnt fair to the teams that had to go through the allegedly cheating teams first. Everyone lost to them, and if they got dqed the other half of the bracket (i.e the teams that didnt even face pl and only lost to hydra) then were kicked out unfairely. Pl then won by merit of having to face them last, while dodging other teams. That imo is not a fair way to win.
If they do dq camel and warlords the new top 4 should imo all be treated equal and no winner should be crowned, as there really was none bar camel/hydra. Otherwise pl would win by means of lucky seed and no one (bar pl ;) ) wants that. |
Arec Bardwin
1855
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 13:02:15 -
[47] - Quote
Perhaps next year consider making the prizes some token golden/silver/bronze ship skins and let the teams fight over space honour instead of trillions in prize ships
If anyone is surprised that eve players will do anything to win prizes worth this amount of isk they are incredibly naive. This includes CCP of course. |
Akrasjel Lanate
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
1829
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 13:21:09 -
[48] - Quote
EVE is meta don't be surprised when they play the game that way. End result is what matters
Akrasjel Lanate
Member of Black Thorne Corporation
Black Thorne Alliance
Citizen of Solitude
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1057
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 13:22:20 -
[49] - Quote
Arec Bardwin wrote:Perhaps next year consider making the prizes some token golden/silver/bronze ship skins and let the teams fight over space honour instead of trillions in prize ships If anyone is surprised that eve players will do anything to win prizes worth this amount of isk they are incredibly naive. This includes CCP of course. I think you are the naive one if you think people wouldn't compete with the same ferocity, be it for a unique ship, space honour, a medal, a title, a skin, a used Kleenex or just for fun and drama.
Maybe you've forgotten which game you are playing? |
Faife
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
296
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 13:39:06 -
[50] - Quote
i'm ok with giving them the prize ships, but ban them out of the accounts too
bans or riot |
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Tora Bushido
EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective
2732
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 13:41:16 -
[51] - Quote
Goodbye my good Fiend o/
DELETE THE WEAK, ADAPT OR DIE !
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Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
1056
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 13:54:52 -
[52] - Quote
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:EVE is meta don't be surprised when they play the game that way. End result is what matters
eve is meta, AT is not like the rest of the game, its meant as eSports where meta has no place.
imagine a soccer game where one team bribes the opponent keeper XD |
Faife
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
296
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 13:55:46 -
[53] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:Akrasjel Lanate wrote:EVE is meta don't be surprised when they play the game that way. End result is what matters eve is meta, AT is not like the rest of the game, its meant as eSports where no meta should be allowed. imagine a soccer game where one team bribes the opponent keeper XD
yes, just try and imagine corruption in FIFA. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
1056
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 13:58:05 -
[54] - Quote
Faife wrote: yes, just try and imagine corruption in FIFA.
even though I was talking about a particular match, you are missing the fact that corruption on even higher level is investigated and will have people punished. Noone wants to watch rigged crap, its death sentence for any serious sports (in case of FIFA not so much because no actual match/tournament has been cheated) |
Faife
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
296
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 14:00:17 -
[55] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:Faife wrote: yes, just try and imagine corruption in FIFA.
even though I was talking about a particular match, you are missing the fact that corruption on even higher level is investigated and will have people punished. Noone wants to watch rigged crap, its death sentence for any serious sports (in case of FIFA not so much because no actual match/tournament has been cheated)
well **** that noone guy whoever he is and you're insane if you think "no actual match/tournament" has been cheated.
also ban hydra |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
1056
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 14:06:41 -
[56] - Quote
Faife wrote: well **** that noone guy whoever he is and you're insane if you think "no actual match/tournament" has been cheated.
also ban hydra
regardless, there is always a shitstorm going once someone gets caught cheating/rigging matches. whats your point?
yes, ban hydra
W0lf Crendraven wrote:IF they dq camlords.
I dont like a flat moving up the order (i.e pl 1, exodus 2, tusker 3.5, nulli 3.5). It isnt fair to the teams that had to go through the allegedly cheating teams first. Everyone lost to them, and if they got dqed the other half of the bracket (i.e the teams that didnt even face pl and only lost to hydra) then were kicked out unfairely. Pl then won by merit of having to face them last, while dodging other teams. That imo is not a fair way to win.
If they do dq camel and warlords the new top 4 should imo all be treated equal and no winner should be crowned, as there really was none bar camel/hydra. Otherwise pl would win by means of lucky seed and no one (bar pl ;) ) wants that.
yea, maybe they just remove all prizes and be done with it. Would be more fair for the rest of AT participants. |
motie one
Secret Passage
18
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 14:38:02 -
[57] - Quote
It is very sad that things have come to this. CCP now need to do a detailed investigation. Freezing the prizes is a good first step and does not assume either innocence or guilt.
What ever action they take if guilt is found needs to be fair and honourable no matter how hard it is to implement.
If they do that all those who are fair minded will give them our full support.
Good luck with a difficuilt task, rise to the occasion and take pride in your efforts. |
Mr Rive
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
96
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 14:44:50 -
[58] - Quote
The people who participate in the AT follow the rules set out by CCP because we want an esport of our own. CCP get out of this exposure, enjoyment (i hope) and a feeling of cooperation with the players.
Breaking those rules doesn't violate the EULA, but it sets out to endanger something awesome. Hydra set out to play the game with CCP we all play between ourselves, that of out metaing our opponents. CCP is not our opponent. That's a line we as participants in the tournament cannot cross if the tournament is to have any validity as an esport.
If CCP can find objective proof of this in action in one or more teams in the AT, then it invalidates not only the prizes given out to the cheaters, but it invalidates any match they played throughout the tournament. There are a lot of teams who might have placed highly if it wasn't for their cheating, and they need to be compensated in some way.
IF the allegations are true, the captains of the teams need to be punished heavily. A lot of the pilots in the teams had an idea of what was going on (i mean hell everyone else did) but they were not the ones who tried to cheat the system. This kind of behaviour will continue if you dont set a very firm example of these pilots. |
Kaeda Maxwell
Screaming Hayabusa Neo-Bushido Movement
349
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 14:55:07 -
[59] - Quote
Mr Rive wrote:The people who participate in the AT follow the rules set out by CCP because we want an esport of our own. CCP get out of this exposure, enjoyment (i hope) and a feeling of cooperation with the players.
Breaking those rules doesn't violate the EULA, but it sets out to endanger something awesome. Hydra set out to play the game with CCP we all play between ourselves, that of out metaing our opponents. CCP is not our opponent. That's a line we as participants in the tournament cannot cross if the tournament is to have any validity as an esport.
If CCP can find objective proof of this in action in one or more teams in the AT, then it invalidates not only the prizes given out to the cheaters, but it invalidates any match they played throughout the tournament. There are a lot of teams who might have placed highly if it wasn't for their cheating, and they need to be compensated in some way.
IF the allegations are true, the captains of the teams need to be punished heavily. A lot of the pilots in the teams had an idea of what was going on (i mean hell everyone else did) but they were not the ones who tried to cheat the system. This kind of behaviour will continue if you dont set a very firm example of these pilots.
They haven't been found guilty yet. Jumping the gun much? |
W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
348
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 15:09:17 -
[60] - Quote
Mr Rive wrote:The people who participate in the AT follow the rules set out by CCP because we want an esport of our own. CCP get out of this exposure, enjoyment (i hope) and a feeling of cooperation with the players.
Breaking those rules doesn't violate the EULA, but it sets out to endanger something awesome. Hydra set out to play the game with CCP we all play between ourselves, that of out metaing our opponents. CCP is not our opponent. That's a line we as participants in the tournament cannot cross if the tournament is to have any validity as an esport.
If CCP can find objective proof of this in action in one or more teams in the AT, then it invalidates not only the prizes given out to the cheaters, but it invalidates any match they played throughout the tournament. There are a lot of teams who might have placed highly if it wasn't for their cheating, and they need to be compensated in some way.
IF the allegations are true, the captains of the teams need to be punished heavily. A lot of the pilots in the teams had an idea of what was going on (i mean hell everyone else did) but they were not the ones who tried to cheat the system. This kind of behaviour will continue if you dont set a very firm example of these pilots.
Severely disagree on some points, you cant punish the average member, what are they to do? Stop doing stuff midmatch when they realize it was thrown? If they realize it sooner, break of with all friends and go away? Even if you suspect, go to your team captain and complain and he tells you nothing is happening and to shut up, what are you to do?
While i agree with punishing the captains, dqing them and taking the prizes. The average member really shouldnt get punished at all. |
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Valkin Mordirc
1477
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 15:10:43 -
[61] - Quote
Kaeda Maxwell wrote:Mr Rive wrote:The people who participate in the AT follow the rules set out by CCP because we want an esport of our own. CCP get out of this exposure, enjoyment (i hope) and a feeling of cooperation with the players.
Breaking those rules doesn't violate the EULA, but it sets out to endanger something awesome. Hydra set out to play the game with CCP we all play between ourselves, that of out metaing our opponents. CCP is not our opponent. That's a line we as participants in the tournament cannot cross if the tournament is to have any validity as an esport.
If CCP can find objective proof of this in action in one or more teams in the AT, then it invalidates not only the prizes given out to the cheaters, but it invalidates any match they played throughout the tournament. There are a lot of teams who might have placed highly if it wasn't for their cheating, and they need to be compensated in some way.
IF the allegations are true, the captains of the teams need to be punished heavily. A lot of the pilots in the teams had an idea of what was going on (i mean hell everyone else did) but they were not the ones who tried to cheat the system. This kind of behaviour will continue if you dont set a very firm example of these pilots. They haven't been found guilty yet. Jumping the gun much?
Hey I'm fairly neutral to this whole thing,
Quote:IF the allegations are true
You should read homie.
#DeleteTheWeak
|
Mr Rive
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
97
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 15:18:29 -
[62] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Mr Rive wrote:The people who participate in the AT follow the rules set out by CCP because we want an esport of our own. CCP get out of this exposure, enjoyment (i hope) and a feeling of cooperation with the players.
Breaking those rules doesn't violate the EULA, but it sets out to endanger something awesome. Hydra set out to play the game with CCP we all play between ourselves, that of out metaing our opponents. CCP is not our opponent. That's a line we as participants in the tournament cannot cross if the tournament is to have any validity as an esport.
If CCP can find objective proof of this in action in one or more teams in the AT, then it invalidates not only the prizes given out to the cheaters, but it invalidates any match they played throughout the tournament. There are a lot of teams who might have placed highly if it wasn't for their cheating, and they need to be compensated in some way.
IF the allegations are true, the captains of the teams need to be punished heavily. A lot of the pilots in the teams had an idea of what was going on (i mean hell everyone else did) but they were not the ones who tried to cheat the system. This kind of behaviour will continue if you dont set a very firm example of these pilots. Severely disagree on some points, you cant punish the average member, what are they to do? Stop doing stuff midmatch when they realize it was thrown? If they realize it sooner, break of with all friends and go away? Even if you suspect, go to your team captain and complain and he tells you nothing is happening and to shut up, what are you to do? While i agree with punishing the captains, dqing them and taking the prizes. The average member really shouldnt get punished at all.
no I tend to agree. There are a lot of really good pilots in hydra teams. They deserve to get to keep playing. I know how PL works and a lot of the team doesnt know half of whats going on, and trust their captains when they tell them what to do. I would like to see the pilots find homes in new alliances, with captains who dont deliberately flaunt the rules.
Again, IF THE ALLEGATIONS ARE TRUE, seen as some people dont seem to get that bit. Something went on, but CCP has to be fair and know they broke rules before they start handing out punishments for a tournament whose verdict has already been reached. |
Helo Dhals
I Pay Hookers 2 Leave Allibaitors
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 15:36:37 -
[63] - Quote
This is literally why we can't have nice things.
CCP puts together a tournament for pilots to test their mettle and instead, greed takes over and it becomes about how much you can get away with. Don't be surprised if the alliance tournaments go away after another incident like this. |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
149
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 15:53:50 -
[64] - Quote
Helo Dhals wrote:This is literally why we can't have nice things.
CCP puts together a tournament for pilots to test their mettle and instead, greed takes over and it becomes about how much you can get away with. Don't be surprised if the alliance tournaments go away after another incident like this.
Yeah, I don't think anyone would be that surprised if this was the last AT
I mean, the same team doing the same thing after previously being banned for it.
Ironically, they could have easily just have won. No team came close to beating either of their teams. Fielding 2 teams is within the rules, sharing setups and AT ships is within the rules, they just didn't need to fix their own matches. Had they just genuinely fought each other they'd still get exactly the same share of AT ships and prizes because agreeing to split prizes is also within the rules.
Seems that wasn't enough lol.
|
DeadDuck
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
161
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 16:00:40 -
[65] - Quote
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:EVE is meta don't be surprised when they play the game that way. End result is what matters
Wrong.
EVE is a product that CCP sells.
People, don't seem to understand that, there are RL jobs dependent on how well EVE Online, the main CCP product sells or not.
The AT is one of the biggest events the game brings to their paying customers. It's officially sponsored by CCP, and if the allegations are true, these people (Hydramel) are destroying the image of that same AT, the image of the game, and hurting CCP income or at least potential income.
Suspicious from rigged results for the 2nd time ? And from the same people ? On a Offical sponsored event ? That's what you can call bad PR.
What do you think a CEO from a RL corporation should do if you see a very restrict number of their clients destroy the public image of their bigest selling product?
Trust me if CCP discovers that matches were fixed... it will be arsh for the people involved. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1057
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 16:10:23 -
[66] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:Yeah, I don't think anyone would be that surprised if this was the last AT CCP is imperfect sure, but I doubt they are so foolish that they would throw away one of their more successful creations just because some players trolled them.
Captain Thunk wrote:No team came close to beating either of their teams. Fielding 2 teams is within the rules, sharing setups and AT ships is within the rules, they just didn't need to fix their own matches. Had they just genuinely fought each other they'd still get exactly the same share of AT ships and prizes because agreeing to split prizes is also within the rules. That sounds like a pretty good case for assuming their innocence until some actual evidence is produced to the contrary, doesn't it? |
Faife
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
296
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 16:21:54 -
[67] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote: That sounds like a pretty good case for assuming their innocence until some actual evidence is produced to the contrary, doesn't it?
no?
#BansOrRiot |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
1056
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 16:22:27 -
[68] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote: That sounds like a pretty good case for assuming their innocence until some actual evidence is produced to the contrary, doesn't it?
no, because they already got caught cheating. So the contrary is to assume.
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Severely disagree on some points, you cant punish the average member, what are they to do?
be honest and speaking up after the match, to CCP if needed. How bout that? DHB could speak up, why not the others? |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
150
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 16:25:34 -
[69] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:That sounds like a pretty good case for assuming their innocence until some actual evidence is produced to the contrary, doesn't it? An accusation made by one of the team players on the Hydramel team led to the investigation that's currently taking place which either will, or will not, turn up concrete evidence. That's what investigations are for.
One of their own players making the accusation is a good case for assuming that there needs to be an investigation.
I'm not sure which part wasn't clear to you.
|
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
150
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 16:34:38 -
[70] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote: be honest and speaking up after the match, to CCP if needed. How bout that? DHB could speak up, why not the others?
I would expect in the course of the investigation, the other players on the Hydramel team will be given a chance to speak up. As their account and possible prize ship is on the line, I hardly imagine all of them are going to deny anything happened if infact, like DHB, they were duped and didn't realise until the last stages that their actions had actually been predetermined at a BBQ event sometime before.
This is Eve, as so many people have pointed out, their loyalty is to themselves and not some imaginary corporation and e-bushido. IF there were clear signs something was amiss on the final stages like DHB asserts then they aren't going to go down with the ship when they know full well that others are going to save themselves. And why should they? This was collusion at the highest level, the actual grunts that did the work were, according to DHB, oblivious until the 2 parts of the team met.
|
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Mr Rive
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
97
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 16:34:49 -
[71] - Quote
DeadDuck wrote:Akrasjel Lanate wrote:EVE is meta don't be surprised when they play the game that way. End result is what matters Wrong. EVE is a product that CCP sells. People, don't seem to understand that, there are RL jobs dependent on how well EVE Online, the main CCP product sells or not. The AT is one of the biggest events the game brings to their paying customers. It's officially sponsored by CCP, and if the allegations are true, these people (Hydramel) are destroying the image of that same AT, the image of the game, and hurting CCP income or at least potential income. Suspicious from rigged results for the 2nd time ? And from the same people ? On a Offical sponsored event ? That's what you can call bad PR. What do you think a CEO from a RL corporation should do if you see a very restrict number of their clients destroy the public image of their bigest selling product? Trust me if CCP discovers that matches were fixed... it will be arsh for the people involved.
I think you're correct on every point but the last one, CCP knows something went on, thats why they made the rule clarifications. It's bad PR if they can prove them. I feel its just as bad PR for them if they can't. Thats why we need the rules changes regardless. I think the best way we can get that is a joint effort by CCP and the vast majority of ethical tournament teams, and the best way, imo to do that, is by appointing a dedicated tournament CSM. CCP should let the players vote who wants to represent them, but I feel manny would be an excellent candidate regardless. Obviously, I dont want to seem as if that would be a biased call, so to avoid that opening it up to a vote from tournament sourced candidates would be the best action they could take. It would kill a lot of birds with one stone. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1057
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 16:45:22 -
[72] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:That sounds like a pretty good case for assuming their innocence until some actual evidence is produced to the contrary, doesn't it? An accusation made by one of the team players on the Hydramel team led to the investigation that's currently taking place which either will, or will not, turn up concrete evidence. That's what investigations are for. One of their own players making the accusation is a good case for assuming that there needs to be an investigation. I'm not sure which part wasn't clear to you. All that is perfectly clear.
I think CCP absolutely needs to carry out an investigation. I do think it was a massive blunder for them to announce it publicly, but that is a different matter.
What I find really daft is that so many people are predicting the result of that investigation and calling it against Warlords and Camel.
Given the history of the groups involved and the obvious tournament prowess of the two teams, it's more likely that the investigation will turn up no concrete evidence at all.
|
Helo Dhals
I Pay Hookers 2 Leave Allibaitors
2
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 16:49:37 -
[73] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote: Given the history of the groups involved and the obvious tournament prowess of the two teams, it's more likely that the investigation will turn up no concrete evidence at all.
If that is the actual outcome, you will see a massive drop in alliance participation next year. Why should anyone spend 80 some odd PLEX plus all the time/energy/ISK for practice, if there is no collective confidence in CCP's ability to provide/preserve an even playing field? |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
151
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 16:54:56 -
[74] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Captain Thunk wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:That sounds like a pretty good case for assuming their innocence until some actual evidence is produced to the contrary, doesn't it? An accusation made by one of the team players on the Hydramel team led to the investigation that's currently taking place which either will, or will not, turn up concrete evidence. That's what investigations are for. One of their own players making the accusation is a good case for assuming that there needs to be an investigation. I'm not sure which part wasn't clear to you. All that is perfectly clear. I think CCP absolutely needs to carry out an investigation. I do think it was a massive blunder for them to announce it publicly, but that is a different matter. What I find really daft is that so many people are predicting the result of that investigation and calling it against Warlords and Camel. Given the history of the groups involved and the obvious tournament prowess of the two teams, it's more likely that the investigation will turn up no concrete evidence at all.
People do that, I haven't as I'm happy to wait to see what CCP find.
As for calling it publicly, that's just to show they're looking into it, rather than just silently ignoring questions about DHBs statement. You can't really fault CCP for doing that.
Yet you've made your own prediction, so I guess you're no better. The history isn't so good. Isn't at least one of the key players banned for RMT? Yet here he is trying to get his hands on trillions of ISK in prizes. The team accused has also done exactly this before and was banned from participating the following year.
What you're actually saying is you don't think they'll have left anything concrete as evidence that can be used to prove what they've done, so I'll just wish you the best of luck getting your AT prize ship back :) |
Lucas Quaan
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
113
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 17:00:58 -
[75] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Given the history of the groups involved and the obvious tournament prowess of the two teams, it's more likely that the investigation will turn up no concrete evidence at all. Well, given the history of the pilots involved, this is also the fourth time that particular scheme was attempted. Not taking any sides here, but there is a precedent for this sort of behaviour. |
Hendrick Tallardar
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
457
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 17:04:54 -
[76] - Quote
Hendrick Tallardar wrote:English only outside of the language specific forums - CCP Logibro
Woah, take a joke Logibro.
EVE Online Weekly & Monthly Nullsec Recaps | EVE Streams
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Mr Rive
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
100
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 17:25:45 -
[77] - Quote
This is all daft. I dont care whether the accusations are true or not. It makes no difference to the tournament in the future. Everyone knows what went on. Everyone knows something unethical went on. What matters is the rules get changed for next year so all of this stupid behaviour and using the tournament as a profit machine gets blocked out. Someone or some people did something which damaged the tournament to make a quick buck. It doesnt matter what that thing is, what matters is they knew they were doing it, they knew it was wrong, and they didnt care about the consequences for the tournament. If there is proof, they need to be banned from ever participating again, because they have done it before and you bet your ass they will try and do it again, they dont care. If there is no concrete evidence for CCP to use, then the people resnponsible need to have it as difficult as possible for them to break the rules again.
If neither of these things happen, next year is going to be a farce, and there will be no point in continuing the alliance tournament at all. Instead of treating it as a bit of fun, and as a tool for prestige, you can bet more alliances will make the tournament into a profit machine, it will be part of their yearly income, just like moon mining used to be.
I do NOT want to be a part in a tournament where this is the case. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1057
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 17:30:33 -
[78] - Quote
Helo Dhals wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Given the history of the groups involved and the obvious tournament prowess of the two teams, it's more likely that the investigation will turn up no concrete evidence at all. If that is the actual outcome, you will see a massive drop in alliance participation next year. Why should anyone spend 80 some odd PLEX plus all the time/energy/ISK for practice, if there is no collective confidence in CCP's ability to provide/preserve an even playing field? I suppose that is a possible outcome. Like I say, it was stupid for CCP to announce the investigation.
Captain Thunk wrote:As for calling it publicly, that's just to show they're looking into it, rather than just silently ignoring questions about DHBs statement. You can't really fault CCP for doing that. I certainly can.
Unless they had clear and irrefutable evidence of collusion between Warlords and Camel before making that announcement, they took a significant PR risk. If they didn't have that evidence, they should have investigated in secret.
Captain Thunk wrote:Yet you've made your own prediction, so I guess you're no better. Have I? It was not my intention if I did.
I'm actually undecided, because I don't think there is sufficient information on which to base a worthwhile prediction.
I could make a wild ass guess, I could go along with the mob or I could stick to my alliance loyalties. But since none of these things convey any greater likelihood of a correct prediction, I don't think I will.
Captain Thunk wrote:What you're actually saying is you don't think they'll have left anything concrete as evidence that can be used to prove what they've done I don't think it's very likely that CCP will find anything concrete, no.
But what I'm "actually saying" is that I would not be in the least bit surprised to find you've all been trolled by HYDRA yet again.
|
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
151
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 17:40:34 -
[79] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote: But what I'm "actually saying" is that I would not be in the least bit surprised to find you've all been trolled by HYDRA yet again.
The point at which the ships were taken it ceases to become a troll, even if that's how it started.
There's no way Hydramel can continue to exploit the same flaw in AT rules, so it hurts them more than anyone else. They've been exploiting it for 4 years now and I can't see how CCP cannot change the rules for next year and allow them to continue doing it.
I too initially thought it was a troll, but if it was, it backfired.
|
Faife
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
296
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 17:47:01 -
[80] - Quote
#BansOrRiot |
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1057
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 17:47:25 -
[81] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:The point at which the ships were taken it ceases to become a troll, even if that's how it started. No, that would just be where it escalated to a higher level of trolling.
Captain Thunk wrote:There's no way Hydramel can continue to exploit the same flaw in AT rules, so it hurts them more than anyone else. They've been exploiting it for 4 years now and I can't see how CCP cannot change the rules for next year and allow them to continue doing it. Sounds rather like they've just pulled up the ladder behind them, doesn't it?
Captain Thunk wrote:I too initially thought it was a troll, but if it was, it backfired. With so many people going full ******? I don't think so.
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Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
151
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 17:54:40 -
[82] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:No, that would just be where it escalated to a higher level of trolling.
Sounds rather like they've just pulled up the ladder behind them, doesn't it?
If you were a member of the Hydramel team I'd call that :backpeddling: Instead it's just bad spin.
Bad Bobby wrote:Captain Thunk wrote:I too initially thought it was a troll, but if it was, it backfired. With so many people going full ******? I don't think so. When you kill off your multi-trillion annual income, that's pretty much guaranteed, it's very difficult, even if you were the offspring of Goebbels and the Iraqi Information minister, to spin this as something positive.
But thanks for taking part.
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Hendrick Tallardar
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
457
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 18:03:27 -
[83] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:With so many people going full ******? I don't think so.
With their 80 or so AT ships, which are worth hundreds of billions of ISK, frozen by CCP which in turn gives PL the majority of the available AT ships to sell and profit off of due to lower availability, yeah it sorta did.
EVE Online Weekly & Monthly Nullsec Recaps | EVE Streams
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1057
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 18:13:21 -
[84] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:No, that would just be where it escalated to a higher level of trolling.
Sounds rather like they've just pulled up the ladder behind them, doesn't it? If you were a member of the Hydramel team I'd call that :backpeddling: Instead it's just bad spin. Bad spin on what?
If it was a massive troll, then it was a massive troll and you are one of it's many victims.
If it wasn't a massive troll, then it's up to CCP to try to salvage what they can from the PR disaster that will follow.
I'd rather it be the former than the later, tbh.
Captain Thunk wrote:When you kill off your multi-trillion annual income, that's pretty much guaranteed, it's very difficult, even if you were the offspring of Goebbels and the Iraqi Information minister, to spin this as something positive. A successful troll on an internet spaceships forum is a successful troll on an internet spaceships forum. I don't see what spin that needs.
Captain Thunk wrote:Did you name yourself Bad Bobby? or did CCP add the prefix once they saw you post? I don't know what CCP thinks of my posting. Given the number of subscribers it's brought to the game, I suppose they can't hate it that much. |
Selene Mikabosh
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 18:18:26 -
[85] - Quote
I really am struggling to see the problem here.
They were the two best teams it doesn't even matter. Seems like a bunch of jealous babies crying about it.
I am an outsider though this is just my perspective looking from outside in and these posts. |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
151
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 18:33:06 -
[86] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote: Bad spin on what?
If it was a massive troll, then it was a massive troll and you are one of it's many victims.
If it wasn't a massive troll, then it's up to CCP to try to salvage what they can from the PR disaster that will follow.
I'd rather it be the former than the later, tbh.
I too want it to be the former, trolling themselves out of trillions of ISK with 1st and 2nd prizes year in, year out is hillarious.
Let's face the facts, Hydramel isn't just better than it's closest rivals, it's way better. I can't speak for teams like Nulli, but in the last 2 years in 7 matches, PL is 1-6 down to Hydramel - that's curbstompingly better than PL is.
So yeah, I don't call losing out on your ability to take 1st and 2nd places every year a ~massive troll~
|
Red Shirt Number-Four
Natural Born Killas Party Poopers.
0
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 18:37:48 -
[87] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote: You should read homie.
Because GAWD knows, EVERYTHING you ever read on the Internet is TRUE and never needs to be questioned! |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1057
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 18:43:28 -
[88] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:I too want it to be the former, trolling themselves out of trillions of ISK with 1st and 2nd prizes year in, year out is hillarious. Good, I was beginning to worry that you had lost your sense of humour.
Captain Thunk wrote:Let's face the facts, Hydramel isn't just better than it's closest rivals, it's way better. I can't speak for teams like Nulli, but in the last 2 years in 7 matches, PL is 1-6 down to Hydramel - that's curbstompingly better than PL is. Sure, I'd go along with that. Given those stats.
Captain Thunk wrote:So yeah, I don't call losing out on your ability to take 1st and 2nd places every year a ~massive troll~
I'm not certain that's the way it would turn out, if this is a troll.
It really depends on how CCP react to the whole episode. That's where the real issue is: the unpredictable element that is CCP. |
Midori Neko-chan
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 18:44:18 -
[89] - Quote
Pandemic (Sore) Losers best losers. |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
151
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 18:52:48 -
[90] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:
It really depends on how CCP react to the whole episode. That's where the real issue is: the unpredictable element that is CCP.
Troll or not, it only works because there's plenty of scope for this to *maybe* have happened, which means CCP are almost certainly going to have to tighten up on collusion and team sharing rules because it jeopardises the integrity of the tournament.
Even if found not guilty, which in the absence of verifiable evidence is a certainty, CCP can't ignore the fact the rules do need to change and teams shouldn't enter multiple teams with which to take a greater share of AT prizes. It's not like the other teams can emulate Hydramel and also submit additional teams as it means spreading their players across many teams which weakens them, and as we've already established they already can't beat Hydramel at full strength.
So the days of taking 1st and 2nd places are over. 50 Ships instead of 75.
If it's a troll then it cost them at least 2.5 tril to do and that's best case scenario. |
|
Lovey Dovey
Great Game Mechanic GoonSwarm
0
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 18:54:08 -
[91] - Quote
Midori Neko-chan wrote:Pandemic (Sore) Losers best losers.
PL have the most AT ships available from this tournament as a result of whats happening. I'm sure any soreness from taking 3rd is being addressed with the increased value in the ships they're selling. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1057
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 19:00:57 -
[92] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:Troll or not, it only works because there's plenty of scope for this to *maybe* have happened, which means CCP are almost certainly going to have to tighten up on collusion and team sharing rules because it jeopardises the integrity of the tournament. I agree completely.
But CCP have been in many positions where all logic and sense dictates they should go one way and still they go the other.
Captain Thunk wrote:Even if found not guilty, which in the absence of verifiable evidence is a certainty, CCP can't ignore the fact the rules do need to change No argument there either. I also think it was only a matter of time before this occurred, if not this year then in the next few ATs it had to come to this, because of the poor ruleset CCP is currently using.
Captain Thunk wrote:So the days of taking 1st and 2nd places are over. 50 Ships instead of 75. I'm not sure that actually follows, but I can completely see why you think so.
Captain Thunk wrote:If it's a troll then it cost them at least 2.5 tril to do and that's best case scenario. That should make it particularly tough for people to top then.
|
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
1057
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 19:03:28 -
[93] - Quote
Selene Mikabosh wrote:I really am struggling to see the problem here.
the problem is that we have a bunch of cheating scumbags here. |
Cobat Marland
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
17
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 19:06:13 -
[94] - Quote
Selene Mikabosh wrote:I really am struggling to see the problem here.
They were the two best teams it doesn't even matter. Seems like a bunch of jealous babies crying about it.
I am an outsider though this is just my perspective looking from outside in and these posts. Because they had a 65% chance of finishing better than everyone else by running two teams, which is forbidden, to have A team and B team. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1057
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 19:08:17 -
[95] - Quote
Cobat Marland wrote:they had a 65% chance of finishing better than everyone else by running two teams, which is forbidden, to have A team and B team. No it isn't. If it was, this thread wouldn't exist.
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Mr Rive
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
101
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 19:34:06 -
[96] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Cobat Marland wrote:they had a 65% chance of finishing better than everyone else by running two teams, which is forbidden, to have A team and B team. No it isn't. If it was, this thread wouldn't exist.
If you're not a hydra alt, you're rather daft.
If you ARE a hydra alt, then you're trying to justify ruining the tournament. How does it make you feel to be the bad guy? |
umaya
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 21:01:06 -
[97] - Quote
ITT: people who don't know who bad bobby is.
Also ITT people who should separate the fact that they don't like certain rules vs what is actually being investigated.
The collusion rule isn't actually about how close teams work together, go read the thread, go read fozzies answers. The only thing under question is whether camel and hydra have fixed a match or not. |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
300
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 21:08:06 -
[98] - Quote
Cobat Marland wrote:Selene Mikabosh wrote:I really am struggling to see the problem here.
They were the two best teams it doesn't even matter. Seems like a bunch of jealous babies crying about it.
I am an outsider though this is just my perspective looking from outside in and these posts. Because they had a 65% chance of finishing better than everyone else by running two teams, which is forbidden, to have A team and B team.
A and B team is fine, A and B team colluding on the outcome is where **** hits the fan |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
151
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 21:09:30 -
[99] - Quote
umaya wrote:ITT: people who don't know who bad bobby is.
Also ITT people who should separate the fact that they don't like certain rules vs what is actually being investigated.
The collusion rule isn't actually about how close teams work together, go read the thread, go read fozzies answers. The only thing under question is whether camel and hydra have fixed a match or not.
The point is you can't have two teams working closely together and not worry about collusion with fixed matches.
If you haven't learnt that yet then there's no hope for you. |
Faife
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
296
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 21:42:05 -
[100] - Quote
#BansOrRiot |
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Mr Rive
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
101
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 22:10:53 -
[101] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:Cobat Marland wrote:Selene Mikabosh wrote:I really am struggling to see the problem here.
They were the two best teams it doesn't even matter. Seems like a bunch of jealous babies crying about it.
I am an outsider though this is just my perspective looking from outside in and these posts. Because they had a 65% chance of finishing better than everyone else by running two teams, which is forbidden, to have A team and B team. A and B team is fine, A and B team colluding on the outcome is where **** hits the fan
its not fine, its within the rules. That doesnt mean its a good rule, just that they cant exactly change the rules halfway through the tournament.
The rules should be changed after this, there is no justifying b teams now. There's a reason we didn't do it. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1866
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 22:23:14 -
[102] - Quote
Mr Rive wrote:This is all daft. I dont care whether the accusations are true or not. It makes no difference to the tournament in the future. Everyone knows what went on. Everyone knows something unethical went on. What matters is the rules get changed for next year so all of this stupid behaviour and using the tournament as a profit machine gets blocked out. Someone or some people did something which damaged the tournament to make a quick buck. It doesnt matter what that thing is, what matters is they knew they were doing it, they knew it was wrong, and they didnt care about the consequences for the tournament. If there is proof, they need to be banned from ever participating again, because they have done it before and you bet your ass they will try and do it again, they dont care. If there is no concrete evidence for CCP to use, then the people resnponsible need to have it as difficult as possible for them to break the rules again.
If neither of these things happen, next year is going to be a farce, and there will be no point in continuing the alliance tournament at all. Instead of treating it as a bit of fun, and as a tool for prestige, you can bet more alliances will make the tournament into a profit machine, it will be part of their yearly income, just like moon mining used to be.
I do NOT want to be a part in a tournament where this is the case.
How quickly you have come to my side eh.
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.
Creator of Burn Jita
Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
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Hiply Rustic
Aliastra Gallente Federation
304
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 22:41:30 -
[103] - Quote
Mr Rive wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote:Cobat Marland wrote:Selene Mikabosh wrote:I really am struggling to see the problem here.
They were the two best teams it doesn't even matter. Seems like a bunch of jealous babies crying about it.
I am an outsider though this is just my perspective looking from outside in and these posts. Because they had a 65% chance of finishing better than everyone else by running two teams, which is forbidden, to have A team and B team. A and B team is fine, A and B team colluding on the outcome is where **** hits the fan its not fine, its within the rules.
So A team from one alliance and B team from another enter the field (although working together, so same team really), A team opens fire as B team sits idly while their ships are destroyed...outcome predetermined by leaders of the two alliances...is within the rules? Or is it only perceived to be within the rules because it was made to seem like an actual fight sort of took place?
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
"Eve deliberately excludes the stupid and the weak willied."
EvE: Only the strong-willied need apply.
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Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
155
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 22:53:55 -
[104] - Quote
Hiply Rustic wrote:
So A team from one alliance and B team from another enter the field (although working together, so same team really), A team opens fire as B team sits idly while their ships are destroyed...outcome predetermined by leaders of the two alliances...is within the rules? Or is it only perceived to be within the rules because it was made to seem like an actual fight sort of took place?
It's only perceived within the rules if you 'fight'. Sitting stationary is illegal.
Under current rules you can share tactics, ships and setups with each other so you could just arrange beforehand that A-team flies a comp that beats what the B-team is flying easily - A's Rock to B's Scissors. This allows you to predetermine who will win without having broken any of CCPs rules.
I think this demonstrates how absurd the situation really is.
Considering the numerous ways Hydramel could have done what they've done legitimately, but didn't, I can only conclude that the team captains just wanted to cheat. That's unless DHB made it all up. In which case they didn't cheat but yeah....comedic set of rules.
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Mr Rive
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
102
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 23:07:01 -
[105] - Quote
Hiply Rustic wrote:Mr Rive wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote:Cobat Marland wrote:Selene Mikabosh wrote:I really am struggling to see the problem here.
They were the two best teams it doesn't even matter. Seems like a bunch of jealous babies crying about it.
I am an outsider though this is just my perspective looking from outside in and these posts. Because they had a 65% chance of finishing better than everyone else by running two teams, which is forbidden, to have A team and B team. A and B team is fine, A and B team colluding on the outcome is where **** hits the fan its not fine, its within the rules. So A team from one alliance and B team from another enter the field (although working together, so same team really), A team opens fire as B team sits idly while their ships are destroyed...outcome predetermined by leaders of the two alliances...is within the rules? Or is it only perceived to be within the rules because it was made to seem like an actual fight sort of took place?
does thunk's post answer your question? I think he said it better than I could have. |
Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
903
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 23:20:35 -
[106] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:Hiply Rustic wrote:
So A team from one alliance and B team from another enter the field (although working together, so same team really), A team opens fire as B team sits idly while their ships are destroyed...outcome predetermined by leaders of the two alliances...is within the rules? Or is it only perceived to be within the rules because it was made to seem like an actual fight sort of took place?
It's only perceived within the rules if you 'fight'. Sitting stationary is illegal. Under current rules you can share tactics, ships and setups with each other so you could just arrange beforehand that A-team flies a comp that beats what the B-team is flying easily - A's Rock to B's Scissors. This allows you to predetermine who will win without having broken any of CCPs rules. I think this demonstrates how absurd the situation really is. Considering the numerous ways Hydramel could have done what they've done legitimately, but didn't, I can only conclude that the team captains just wanted to cheat. That's unless DHB made it all up. In which case they didn't cheat but yeah....comedic set of rules.
At this point we have to assume that u colluded with both teams aswell since your setups lost.
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Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
156
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 23:22:42 -
[107] - Quote
Baali Tekitsu wrote:
At this point we have to assume that u colluded with both teams aswell since your setups lost.
That only works when the 3 teams have already agreed to pool the prizes and split evenly.
As that hasn't happened, your logic has failed.
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Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
903
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 23:24:30 -
[108] - Quote
I think CCP should investigate if there wasnt any foul play involved in the PL losses, losing againts both teams is pretty fishy since PL cant possibly be worse than Hydras.
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Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
903
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 23:27:12 -
[109] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:Baali Tekitsu wrote:
At this point we have to assume that u colluded with both teams aswell since your setups lost.
That only works when the 3 teams have already agreed to pool the prizes and split evenly. As that hasn't happened, your logic has failed.
How is it a requirement to share prices to collude?
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Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
158
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 23:30:22 -
[110] - Quote
Baali Tekitsu wrote:Captain Thunk wrote:Baali Tekitsu wrote:
At this point we have to assume that u colluded with both teams aswell since your setups lost.
That only works when the 3 teams have already agreed to pool the prizes and split evenly. As that hasn't happened, your logic has failed. How is it a requirement to share prices to collude?
Because you need to gain something from it, not demonstrate stupidity like you're doing.
I've had to deal with some pretty weak arguments in my time, but come on man, did you fall out of a 3rd storey window and feel the urgent need to start poasting?
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Hiply Rustic
Aliastra Gallente Federation
304
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 23:34:16 -
[111] - Quote
Mr Rive wrote:Hiply Rustic wrote:
its not fine, its within the rules.
So A team from one alliance and B team from another enter the field (although working together, so same team really), A team opens fire as B team sits idly while their ships are destroyed...outcome predetermined by leaders of the two alliances...is within the rules? Or is it only perceived to be within the rules because it was made to seem like an actual fight sort of took place?
does thunk's post answer your question? I think he said it better than I could have. [/quote]
It both answered the question and highlighted the absurdity of the rule as implemented.
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
"Eve deliberately excludes the stupid and the weak willied."
EvE: Only the strong-willied need apply.
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Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
903
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 23:36:50 -
[112] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:Baali Tekitsu wrote:Captain Thunk wrote:Baali Tekitsu wrote:
At this point we have to assume that u colluded with both teams aswell since your setups lost.
That only works when the 3 teams have already agreed to pool the prizes and split evenly. As that hasn't happened, your logic has failed. How is it a requirement to share prices to collude? Because you need to gain something from it, not demonstrate stupidity like you're doing. I've had to deal with some pretty weak arguments in my time, but come on man, did you fall out of a 3rd storey window and feel the urgent need to start poasting?
I dont really see how any of the teams ~gains~ something from dropping to losers bracket and having to fight an additional series +disedvantage in finals.
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Hiply Rustic
Aliastra Gallente Federation
304
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 23:37:26 -
[113] - Quote
Baali Tekitsu wrote:I think CCP should investigate if there wasnt any foul play involved in the PL losses, losing againts both teams is pretty fishy since PL cant possibly be worse than Hydras.
Much edgy, very angst.
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
"Eve deliberately excludes the stupid and the weak willied."
EvE: Only the strong-willied need apply.
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Ryu Chaos
Tr0pa de elite. Pandemic Legion
16
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 23:53:55 -
[114] - Quote
Quote:I dont really see how any of the teams ~gains~ something from dropping to losers bracket and having to fight an additional series +disedvantage in finals.
apparently you didnt see the "so-called" logs. the tldr logs of kadesh said this:
"In our semifinal vs Camel, we would fight the first match legitimately and whoever lost would give up his second match as well, so we would have more time to prepare for the BO1 vs the Tuskers. this way we will have 40-60 min compared to the 20 that either of the team would have."
if you see the second match the reaction times are stupidly slower as shown by blast X in another thread.
Also CCP's schedule was fixed, if the BO3 finish in 2 matches, the time would still be kept and they would just go to jita cam or whatever.
The funny part is that they could simply drop the second match for various reasons (not show more setups etc) which i think is also in the rule, the illegal part was that the teams reached an agreement for either to concede their second match.
@RyuChaos_
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Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
903
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 23:55:54 -
[115] - Quote
Some people seem to forget that at no point was it set in stone that both teams reach the finals, putting yourself intentionally at a disedvantage for possibly just 14 price ships and shame of lose is pretty stupid. Especially considering hoe much time each of the teams put into this. Until investigation comes to conclusion give them benefit of the doubt, until now we seen only some pasted chat lines and many claims.
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Mr Rive
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
103
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 23:58:55 -
[116] - Quote
Baali Tekitsu wrote:Captain Thunk wrote:Baali Tekitsu wrote:Captain Thunk wrote:Baali Tekitsu wrote:
At this point we have to assume that u colluded with both teams aswell since your setups lost.
That only works when the 3 teams have already agreed to pool the prizes and split evenly. As that hasn't happened, your logic has failed. How is it a requirement to share prices to collude? Because you need to gain something from it, not demonstrate stupidity like you're doing. I've had to deal with some pretty weak arguments in my time, but come on man, did you fall out of a 3rd storey window and feel the urgent need to start poasting? I dont really see how any of the teams ~gains~ something from dropping to losers bracket and having to fight an additional series +disedvantage in finals.
The best teams get into the winner's bracket. They betted on getting one team through in the winner's bracket with skill, they better on getting one through in the losers bracket with effort.
They also did it because they wanted to ensure they didnt have to do any fishy buisness until the finals when they would face each other and the matches were irrelevant. The sooner one team goes down to the loser's bracket, the less chance they have of facing bigger teams until later on. This means they dont have to show any more setups than they have to against the smaller teams.
This isnt some kind of conspiracy theory, they did almost the exact same thing last year. And guess what, when they got banned for colluding with outbreak, they did the exact same thing too. |
Mr Rive
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
103
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 00:01:35 -
[117] - Quote
Baali Tekitsu wrote:Some people seem to forget that at no point was it set in stone that both teams reach the finals, putting yourself intentionally at a disedvantage for possibly just 14 price ships and shame of lose is pretty stupid. Especially considering hoe much time each of the teams put into this. Until investigation comes to conclusion give them benefit of the doubt, until now we seen only some pasted chat lines and many claims.
they're not claims, they did the same thing with outbreak and got banned for it. This time they were just less obvious, to no offense, put people like you in doubt. I hate to keep saying it, but everyone knows something went on. As I say, whether CCP can prove it is irrelevant for next year, they need to change the rules regardless, or its only a matter of time before another match fix that got the original hydra team banned happens again, and everyone gets so sick of the tournament being so obviously rigged that no one wants to participate. |
Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
903
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 00:35:29 -
[118] - Quote
Mr Rive wrote:Baali Tekitsu wrote:
I dont really see how any of the teams ~gains~ something from dropping to losers bracket and having to fight an additional series +disedvantage in finals.
The best teams get into the winner's bracket. They betted on getting one team through in the winner's bracket with skill, they better on getting one through in the losers bracket with effort. They also did it because they wanted to ensure they didnt have to do any fishy buisness until the finals when they would face each other and the matches were irrelevant. The sooner one team goes down to the loser's bracket, the less chance they have of facing bigger teams until later on. This means they dont have to show any more setups than they have to against the smaller teams. This isnt some kind of conspiracy theory, they did almost the exact same thing last year. And guess what, when they got banned for colluding with outbreak, they did the exact same thing too.
Except there is no pattern there, actually. Outbreak dropped to losers bracket after their third match in AT IX, last year HYDRA dropped to losers after their fourth match, this year they dropped to losers after their fifth match. If at all they try to remain as long as possible in winners and not drop to losers.
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Faife
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
296
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 03:17:25 -
[119] - Quote
#BansOrRiot is trending on twitter atm |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1057
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 04:32:26 -
[120] - Quote
Mr Rive wrote:If you're not a hydra alt, you're rather daft. I'm surprised that you don't already know that I'm a long standing HYDRA member, as well as an ex-member of your own corp in PL. But we can put that surprise down to my ego and narcissism and move on.
Mr Rive wrote:If you ARE a hydra alt, then you're trying to justify ruining the tournament. I'm not trying to justify ruining the tournament. I'm debating whether the tournament has been ruined and if so, who by.
Mr Rive wrote:How does it make you feel to be the bad guy? I've been the bad guy for a long time. Just the same as you have. I don't find it feels like anything much, since it's chiefly in the perception of others. Being the object of such vehement hatred over space pixels and forum wars has always caused me to smile. So maybe that answers your question?
With that out of the way, maybe we can get back to the real subject?
You and I appear to disagree as to whether there is evidence of an offense being committed under the current AT ruleset. You appear to think that Warlords and Camel have effectively poured petrol over themselves and run into a burning building. I think it's much more likely that they've just trolled the **** out of you, your alliance, CCP and a fair section of the playerbase.
Neither of us really knows at this point. Maybe we'll find out when CCP complete their investigation and publish their findings.
You and I appear to agree that the current AT ruleset is poor and invites this kind of troublesome metagaming and controversy that probably isn't healthy for the future of the burgeoning e-sport that (I assume) both of us love.
We also appear to agree that regardless of the results of CCP's investigation those rules need to be improved.
Have I got all that right?
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Lovey Dovey
Great Game Mechanic GoonSwarm
0
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Posted - 2015.09.17 05:37:51 -
[121] - Quote
Baali Tekitsu wrote:I think CCP should investigate if there wasnt any foul play involved in the PL losses, losing againts both teams is pretty fishy since PL cant possibly be worse than Hydras.
The amount of desperate spin in your post is palpable. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1070
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 06:43:39 -
[122] - Quote
Lovey Dovey wrote:If it's a troll, then it blew up in their face and they're worse off than everyone else at the moment. They even made PL better off by lowering the available supply of Imps & Fiends, which means PL can charge more due to low supply. If you want to value everyone by the number of AT ships they currently hold, maybe.
I don't personally subscribe to that method of valuation. |
Jommis
Cool Intentions SpaceMonkey's Alliance
105
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Posted - 2015.09.17 06:46:08 -
[123] - Quote
Give all the ships to the fine people at www.iwantisk.com so they can raffle them.
Hello, world!
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Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
161
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Posted - 2015.09.17 06:48:50 -
[124] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:I'm surprised that you don't already know that I'm a long standing HYDRA member, as well as an ex-member of your own corp in PL. But we can put that surprise down to my ego and narcissism and move on.
Bad Bobby wrote: You and I appear to disagree as to whether there is evidence of an offense being committed under the current AT ruleset. You appear to think that Warlords and Camel have effectively poured petrol over themselves and run into a burning building. I think it's much more likely that they've just trolled the **** out of you, your alliance, CCP and a fair section of the playerbase.
This says it all, you simultaneously claim to be a member of Hydra yet can only suggest it might be an elaborate troll that backfired.
You can't say for sure because you don't actually know and while you think it's more likely it's a troll, you're not prepared to risk your credibility with a definitive answer because you accept that you could well be wrong as it is something the higher ups might have done and not clued you in on.
Interesting insight into Hydra and your position in it. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1070
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 07:07:08 -
[125] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:This says it all, you simultaneously claim to be a member of Hydra yet can only suggest it might be an elaborate troll that backfired. No, I claim to be a member of HYDRA and suggest this might be a pretty straightforward troll that has succeeded.
Captain Thunk wrote:You can't say for sure because you don't actually know and while you think it's more likely it's a troll, you're not prepared to risk your credibility with a definitive answer because you accept that you could well be wrong as it is something the higher ups might have done and not clued you in on. Yes.
That's essentially what I've already said reworded in such a way as to make it sound like making wild guesses is somehow more noble and wise than accepting the limits of your knowledge.
Captain Thunk wrote:Interesting insight into Hydra and your position in it. I didn't claim to be anything more than a long standing member of HYDRA and only that after being accused of being a HYDRA alt. I've not claimed to be one of the Warlords or Camel AT teams. The last time I was in an AT team it was under the HYDRA ticker and nowdays my questionable past, PL affiliations and distinct lack of talent prevent me from competing alongside Warlords in the AT.
I've also made it abundantly clear that my knowledge is insufficient to make a determination about this controversy. I'm advocating we discuss the things we can actually discuss and leave the wild conjectures out of it.
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Lovey Dovey
Great Game Mechanic GoonSwarm
1
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Posted - 2015.09.17 07:08:05 -
[126] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote: If you want to value everyone by the number of AT ships they currently hold, maybe.
I don't personally subscribe to that method of valuation.
It's valuing who is in a better situation in tangible and provable terms. You can screech all you want about the community being trolled, but at the moment the people doing the trolling have lost more than anyone.
Bad Bobby wrote: No, I claim to be a member of HYDRA and suggest this might be a pretty straightforward troll that has succeeded.
Succeeded in your alliance/group losing all your gains from the tournament and putting your rivals in a better position monetarily. Seems like a pretty dumb way to measure success. |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
161
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Posted - 2015.09.17 07:12:07 -
[127] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote: I didn't claim to be anything more than a long standing member of HYDRA and only that after being accused of being a HYDRA alt.
My apologies, I admit the limits to my knowledge, I wasn't aware that HYDRA was anything but an AT team.
I admire your loyalty to your alliance and your sterling attempts to white knight it during this thread. You've had little to work with and some large logic holes to skirt around. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1070
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 07:26:52 -
[128] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:My apologies, I admit the limits to my knowledge, I wasn't aware that HYDRA was anything but an AT team. Apology accepted.
HYDRA has always been more than just an AT team. Obviously the high profile of the AT team has a tendency to eclipse everything else.
Now, can we stop slinging **** at eachother and actually have a discussion about the subject at hand?
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Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
162
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Posted - 2015.09.17 07:40:34 -
[129] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Captain Thunk wrote:My apologies, I admit the limits to my knowledge, I wasn't aware that HYDRA was anything but an AT team. Apology accepted. HYDRA has always been more than just an AT team. Obviously the high profile of the AT team has a tendency to eclipse everything else. Now, can we stop slinging **** at eachother and actually have a discussion about the subject at hand?
Yeah, so back to the troll that backfired.
CCP opened an investigation into the matter which would only have happened if someone had submitted evidence via support ticket to warrant an investigation. This, I think we can agree, would be a ticket from DHB Wildcat because no-one else could submit the ticket on his behalf as they can't claim veracity over logs they've actually copied of a random website. No-one else has the insight into what really went on that he had.
A ticket he would never have submitted in the first place according to DHB had his team Captain not delivered an angry post aimed at him in response to his actions.
So this is why, assuming it's a troll at all, it's backfired. Hydramel had not intention of giving up their scheme, they've used it for 4 years and an elaborate troll isn't the way to get rules changes. It's detrimental to their income and makes no logical sense as to why this would all be a method to force CCP into 'fixing' the tournament from being fixed.
Not to mention, people who know DHB think he's too e-honoure to go in for this kind of thing.
I mean, your attempts are valiant, but you're relying on no tangible evidence being left in the client and none of the 24+ members of the Hydramel team folding out of self-preservation - from CCPs point of view it will only take 1.
Even if that does happen, Hydramel forfeits 2.5 Tril at least annual income, with rules changes that only affect Hydramel.
So yeah, it's a backfire if it's a troll.
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GROUND XERO
Paradox Collective Project.Mayhem.
0
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Posted - 2015.09.17 07:48:15 -
[130] - Quote
Before PL is screaming for bans...i wanna ask why they are still allowed to join AT after throwing a match with dual tanked vagas... because everyone knows this must have been a thrown match... |
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1070
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 07:49:40 -
[131] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Now, can we stop slinging **** at eachother and actually have a discussion about the subject at hand? Yeah, so back to the troll that backfired. Apparently not. |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
162
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Posted - 2015.09.17 07:51:53 -
[132] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Captain Thunk wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Now, can we stop slinging **** at eachother and actually have a discussion about the subject at hand? Yeah, so back to the troll that backfired. Apparently not.
There's not much else we can discuss.
It's either an elaborate troll that backired, in which case
-or-
It's true, in which case |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1070
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 08:01:04 -
[133] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:There's not much else we can discuss. We can't discuss the current AT rules and what improvements need to be made to them?
We can't discuss the current AT tournament structure and how that can be improved?
We can't discuss the place that AT ships play in the AT meta and the overall EVE economy?
We can't discuss the unstable nature of the EVE community and it's horrendous groupthink?
You feel that there is nothing constructive or valuable to add to this thread? Only more trolling, insults, rage, ignorance and hysterics?
Ok. I suppose it's just /thread then.
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Mr Rive
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
103
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Posted - 2015.09.17 08:52:14 -
[134] - Quote
GROUND XERO wrote:Before PL is screaming for bans...i wanna ask why they are still allowed to join AT after throwing a match with dual tanked vagas... because everyone knows this must have been a thrown match...
what on earth would we have to gain from kicking ourselves out of the tournament? |
DeadDuck
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
164
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Posted - 2015.09.17 09:23:38 -
[135] - Quote
Mr Rive wrote:GROUND XERO wrote:Before PL is screaming for bans...i wanna ask why they are still allowed to join AT after throwing a match with dual tanked vagas... because everyone knows this must have been a thrown match... what on earth would we have to gain from kicking ourselves out of the tournament?
Stop making sense !
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Mr Rive
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
103
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 11:18:31 -
[136] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Captain Thunk wrote:There's not much else we can discuss. We can't discuss the current AT rules and what improvements need to be made to them? We can't discuss the current AT tournament structure and how that can be improved? We can't discuss the place that AT ships play in the AT meta and the overall EVE economy? We can't discuss the unstable nature of the EVE community and it's horrendous groupthink? You feel that there is nothing constructive or valuable to add to this thread? Only more trolling, insults, rage, ignorance and hysterics? Ok. I suppose it's just /thread then.
none of these things can be reasonably discussed while the question of hydra's cheating hangs in the air. What went wrong was a symptom of the problem with the current ruleset. We're talking about cures, but everyone keeps dragging it back into whether they think hydra did/didnt cheat.
Frankly, that question, as i keep saying, is irrelevant to next year. We all know something fishy went on, thats not groupthink its fact. If PL had done something like this, everyone would be tearing us apart too. The fact hydra have been banned for it in the past only shows that they're clearly interested in flaunting the rules as much as possible.
You were caught with your hand in the cookie jar again. The question is whether someone took a picture of you doing it, not whether you were manipulating the rules and pushing the boundaries. 'But nobody can prove we stole a cookie! Its just everyone hates us! It's not OUR fault there's one less cookie in the jar and no one else was in the house! what if it was rats????'
It derails the topic, and I think you actually want to fix the cause of these problems, you just dont want to admit hydra did anything illegal or unethical, again. You sound like one of the good guys, I wouldn't be surprised if like many of the hydra team you didnt really 'care' why you kept winning as long as you got your payout at the end. That's fine, I might have done the same in your position, but dont keep pulling this back on to whether hydra is guilty or not, that's not the real problem with the tournament. |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
163
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 11:29:43 -
[137] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:We can't discuss the current AT tournament structure and how that can be improved? I think we're in agreement that it should be a competition between teams, this was highlighted by PL before the tournament started and as it progressed. This led to rules clarifications CCP made as best they could. Ultimately, it seems it wasn't enough. It's not like CCP hasn't been liberal, in this thread alone I've highlighted several other ways that Hydramel could have achieved exactly the same effect without actually breaking any rules, but it seems to some this is no fun unless you break a few of the rules. This is where the danger is for Hydramel, CCP have given them scope to do what they've been doing for years now so this is more of an insult to CCP than anything else. We've already all agreed that Hydramel would have won just as easily without cheating. So I think this removes CCPs choice, they will clamp down on all forms of collusion. Which isn't a bad thing, afterall it's an Alliance Tournament, if you can't get 24 people in your own alliance to run tests then guess what, you're not an alliance.
Bad Bobby wrote:We can't discuss the place that AT ships play in the AT meta and the overall EVE economy? It's a question of balance. It's undeniable AT ships are crowd pleasers, people like to see them on the line and 'sploding, but they are inbalanced and the points cost should start to reflect this. Great if you have them and want to use them, but they should never be the same points cost as the same class of hull. I don't see many people arguing with this.
Bad Bobby wrote:We can't discuss the unstable nature of the EVE community and it's horrendous groupthink? Personally, I hate the 'community' endless whining and personal attacks made directly at CCP employees. Yet they're expected to sit there and endure it endlessly with only perfectly polite responses, they can't ignore it because it would offend the delicate little flowers and they can't give an emotional response because of expectations of 'professional behaviour'. I think the situation is stupid and an indictment on modern humanity. It's not an Eve thing, it's not a gaming thing, it's a moronic culture that breeds entitlement. I rarely get involved, I don't often read eve-o, reddit or any of the others. I saw it in 2006 it hasn't changed any since.
Bad Bobby wrote: You feel that there is nothing constructive or valuable to add to this thread? Only more trolling, insults, rage, ignorance and hysterics?
Basically no, we're all waiting for the outcome of CCPs Investigation and killing time until it's complete. Sure, I enjoy posting and it's made me smile with various defences of Hydramel and what appears to be one guy cycling alts to post implications that PL somehow cheated by losing - ignoring the fact that PL doesn't profit in doing this.
I just like to argue and this makes a change from baiting Americans on pl.com |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1077
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 12:23:45 -
[138] - Quote
Mr Rive wrote:none of these things can be reasonably discussed while the question of hydra's cheating hangs in the air. What went wrong was a symptom of the problem with the current ruleset. We're talking about cures, but everyone keeps dragging it back into whether they think hydra did/didnt cheat. Whether Warlords and Camel cheated or not, or whether this whole thing is a troll or not, will come out soon enough... or not. So I don't see much need to discuss it further than we already have.
Mr Rive wrote:Frankly, that question, as i keep saying, is irrelevant to next year. Which is why I think we can happily discuss the future, regardless of the verdict of the investigation, because the fact there is need for an investigation at all is the actual problem.
Mr Rive wrote:I think you actually want to fix the cause of these problems I do, because I want EVE and the AT to survive and flourish. However, I would rather it remains the classic sandbox EVE where anything goes and the weak just have to HTFU. The idea that EVE should be turned into a muted version of itself for some reason just doesn't work for me.
Mr Rive wrote:you just dont want to admit hydra did anything illegal or unethical, again. I'll admit it as soon as I know it to be true. In fact, I'll be laughing with the rest of you.
Mr Rive wrote:You sound like one of the good guys, I wouldn't be surprised if like many of the hydra team you didnt really 'care' why you kept winning as long as you got your payout at the end. That's fine, I might have done the same in your position, but dont keep pulling this back on to whether hydra is guilty or not, that's not the real problem with the tournament. I'm not one of the good guys by any stretch, but I'm also not an exploiter or rulebreaker, because I value my continued existence and prosperity within this game.
I very much did care about why we kept winning and I think that it's spurious to suggest our wins were all predicated on cheating.
I'm also not the one that keeps pulling this discussion back to the "did they / didn't they" question because I don't see the point in pure speculation. |
Taraas Enko
Hax. Shadow Cartel
16
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 12:40:02 -
[139] - Quote
IF the guys running the AT from CCP fail to resolve this then yous may as well get a job at FIFA |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1077
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 12:40:41 -
[140] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:I think we're in agreement that it should be a competition between teams, this was highlighted by PL before the tournament started and as it progressed. This led to rules clarifications CCP made as best they could. Ultimately, it seems it wasn't enough. It's not like CCP hasn't been liberal, in this thread alone I've highlighted several other ways that Hydramel could have achieved exactly the same effect without actually breaking any rules, but it seems to some this is no fun unless you break a few of the rules. This is where the danger is for Hydramel, CCP have given them scope to do what they've been doing for years now so this is more of an insult to CCP than anything else. We've already all agreed that Hydramel would have won just as easily without cheating. So I think this removes CCPs choice, they will clamp down on all forms of collusion. Which isn't a bad thing, afterall it's an Alliance Tournament, if you can't get 24 people in your own alliance to run tests then guess what, you're not an alliance. Yeah, I feel the current collusion rules are far too permissive and leave it so open to abuse. It also appears to me that the rules are very difficult to police and enforce. But we'll see the truth of that soon enough, I expect.
Captain Thunk wrote:It's a question of balance. It's undeniable AT ships are crowd pleasers, people like to see them on the line and 'sploding, but they are inbalanced and the points cost should start to reflect this. Great if you have them and want to use them, but they should never be the same points cost as the same class of hull. I don't see many people arguing with this. I think a better points balance is certainly possible. But do you think that the number, value and tournament viability of the AT prizes is right? I'm not sure we need prizes so valuable when the bragging rights alone would be sufficient to drive the best of us to compete. I'm not sure having the tournament prizes perpetuate an advantage over those that do not have them is really the right dynamic either.
Captain Thunk wrote:Personally, I hate the 'community' endless whining and personal attacks made directly at CCP employees. Yet they're expected to sit there and endure it endlessly with only perfectly polite responses, they can't ignore it because it would offend the delicate little flowers and they can't give an emotional response because of expectations of 'professional behaviour'. I think the situation is stupid and an indictment on modern humanity. It's not an Eve thing, it's not a gaming thing, it's a moronic culture that breeds entitlement. I rarely get involved, I don't often read eve-o, reddit or any of the others. I saw it in 2006 it hasn't changed any since. People on the internet. So often magical and so often down right disgusting. It's an insoluble problem in my mind, so I've always gone for the classic approach of killing them all and let "god" sort them out.
Captain Thunk wrote:Basically no, we're all waiting for the outcome of CCPs Investigation and killing time until it's complete. I think there needs to be more reading material in this waiting room.
Anyway, thanks for engaging me on the actual issues. Snigg #1.
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MissBolyai
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
143
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 13:27:48 -
[141] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:HYDRA has always been more than just an AT team. Obviously the high profile of the AT team has a tendency to eclipse everything else.
You mean Warlords of the Deep, right? Or are you talking about mother Hydra and her offspring Camel and Warlords?
Hydra doesn't have an AT team. I understand the confusion though, and I think that's at the heart of CCP's inquiry. |
W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
350
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 13:33:26 -
[142] - Quote
Literally all you pl people are on about is camel and warlords/hydra beeing 1 team, that isnt the issue, never was the issue and is totally legal. Its all about if they turned their bo3 into a bo1 or not and if the finals were legit. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1082
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 13:46:22 -
[143] - Quote
MissBolyai wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:HYDRA has always been more than just an AT team. Obviously the high profile of the AT team has a tendency to eclipse everything else. You mean Warlords of the Deep, right? No, I mean HYDRA RELOADED.
But following your lead and taking this all completely out of context, you can call me a Warlords Of The Deep member instead, I was only a member of Warlords for the blink of an eye, but nbd.
MissBolyai wrote:Or are you talking about mother Hydra and her offspring Camel and Warlords? It's somewhat harsh on Camel to claim that they are merely the offspring of HYDRA RELOADED when they in fact originated as an entirely separate entity and have their own independent tournament pedigree. Indeed, it was that independent tournament pedigree along with their small gang focus that led HYDRA in to a training partnership with them in the first place.
MissBolyai wrote:Hydra doesn't have an AT team. If you say so. |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
301
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 14:08:38 -
[144] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Literally all you pl people are on about is camel and warlords/hydra beeing 1 team, that isnt the issue, never was the issue and is totally legal. Its all about if they turned their bo3 into a bo1 or not and if the finals were legit.
I guess you weren't around for the Drama Lama when Waffles tried to enter the tournament for the first time were you..... |
MissBolyai
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
143
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 14:22:33 -
[145] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:MissBolyai wrote:Hydra doesn't have an AT team. If you say so.
Am I wrong? http://community.eveonline.com/community/alliance-tournament/ I just crtl + f'd the snot out of that page for "hydra" and got 0 results.
And if Camel had their own independent tournament pedigree, why did they need to share setups/ships/tactics with Warlords? Again, no one from PL (sans Rive) is saying that PL should have won, and the official stance of PL is that Warlords and Camel out-executed us on the last day. Trust me, I am the official spokesman for PL.
But you're a dumbojet if you think that dhb's claims aren't significant and against the rules. |
W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
350
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 14:32:10 -
[146] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:W0lf Crendraven wrote:Literally all you pl people are on about is camel and warlords/hydra beeing 1 team, that isnt the issue, never was the issue and is totally legal. Its all about if they turned their bo3 into a bo1 or not and if the finals were legit. I guess you weren't around for the Drama Lama when Waffles tried to enter the tournament for the first time were you.....
Who cares about that, its specifically says that what they did, bar the actual match fixing and gentlemans rules, i.e beeing 1 team, training together, trading ships, trading setups, splitting pizes and so on is 100% legal. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1082
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 14:40:12 -
[147] - Quote
MissBolyai wrote:if Camel had their own independent tournament pedigree, why did they need to share setups/ships/tactics with Warlords? Because they needed to practice against a top tier team in order to prepare themselves for the AT.
As a result they put out an amazing performance throughout the competition.
Since it clearly works, why knock it?
MissBolyai wrote:Trust me, I am the official spokesman for PL. And I'm the Sultan Of Brunei.
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MissBolyai
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
143
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 14:43:41 -
[148] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:MissBolyai wrote:if Camel had their own independent tournament pedigree, why did they need to share setups/ships/tactics with Warlords? Because they needed to practice against a top tier team in order to prepare themselves for the AT. Practice against? or Collude with?
We'll leave the decision on that to CCP, but those logs and the information that's come out since DHB's post are pretty damning. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1082
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 14:51:51 -
[149] - Quote
MissBolyai wrote:Practice against? or Collude with? You told me they didn't need to collude to win. But I'm pretty sure everyone can do with some practice before a tournament. |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
301
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 14:57:51 -
[150] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote:W0lf Crendraven wrote:Literally all you pl people are on about is camel and warlords/hydra beeing 1 team, that isnt the issue, never was the issue and is totally legal. Its all about if they turned their bo3 into a bo1 or not and if the finals were legit. I guess you weren't around for the Drama Lama when Waffles tried to enter the tournament for the first time were you..... Who cares about that, its specifically says that what they did, bar the actual match fixing and gentlemans rules, i.e beeing 1 team, training together, trading ships, trading setups, splitting pizes and so on is 100% legal.
So, basically, everything they did was OK, EXCEPT the part where they cheated
But that is OK, we shouldn't worry about that part, look at everything they did that was OK?? |
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MissBolyai
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
144
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 15:00:47 -
[151] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:MissBolyai wrote:Practice against? or Collude with? You told me they didn't need to collude to win. But I'm pretty sure everyone can do with some practice before a tournament. C'mon man. |
MissBolyai
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
144
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 15:03:27 -
[152] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:MissBolyai wrote:Practice against? or Collude with? You told me they didn't need to collude to win. But I'm pretty sure everyone can do with some practice before a tournament. To make a sports analogy at the risk of you not getting it: The New England Patriots didn't need to cheat to get to the Super Bowl last year, but they did. That doesn't mean it is ok/legal. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1082
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 15:18:17 -
[153] - Quote
You're entirely welcome to take everything I say out of context if you wish, but it's not going to lead to any meaningful debate on the issues.
And as I have already said, I wasn't present when the alleged events took place, so I can't attest either way.
If you've got any actual evidence, feel free to share it with the rest of us. |
MissBolyai
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
144
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 15:22:59 -
[154] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:You're entirely welcome to take everything I say out of context if you wish, but it's not going to lead to any meaningful debate on the issues.
And as I have already said, I wasn't present when the alleged events took place, so I can't attest either way.
If you've got any actual evidence, feel free to share it with the rest of us. We will continue to leave that to CCP. The court of public opinion has already spoken, as little sway as that might hold. |
W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
351
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 16:35:03 -
[155] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:W0lf Crendraven wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote:W0lf Crendraven wrote:Literally all you pl people are on about is camel and warlords/hydra beeing 1 team, that isnt the issue, never was the issue and is totally legal. Its all about if they turned their bo3 into a bo1 or not and if the finals were legit. I guess you weren't around for the Drama Lama when Waffles tried to enter the tournament for the first time were you..... Who cares about that, its specifically says that what they did, bar the actual match fixing and gentlemans rules, i.e beeing 1 team, training together, trading ships, trading setups, splitting pizes and so on is 100% legal. So, basically, everything they did was OK, EXCEPT the part where they cheated But that is OK, we shouldn't worry about that part, look at everything they did that was OK??
Im not saying that, if they fixed matches i want them banned. Im saying a lot of pl guys are claiming that the working together as 1 team part is basicely the bad thing, but it is of no matter at all. |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
302
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 17:17:56 -
[156] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote:W0lf Crendraven wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote:W0lf Crendraven wrote:Literally all you pl people are on about is camel and warlords/hydra beeing 1 team, that isnt the issue, never was the issue and is totally legal. Its all about if they turned their bo3 into a bo1 or not and if the finals were legit. I guess you weren't around for the Drama Lama when Waffles tried to enter the tournament for the first time were you..... Who cares about that, its specifically says that what they did, bar the actual match fixing and gentlemans rules, i.e beeing 1 team, training together, trading ships, trading setups, splitting pizes and so on is 100% legal. So, basically, everything they did was OK, EXCEPT the part where they cheated But that is OK, we shouldn't worry about that part, look at everything they did that was OK?? Im not saying that, if they fixed matches i want them banned. Im saying a lot of pl guys are claiming that the working together as 1 team part is basicely the bad thing, but it is of no matter at all.
I have consistently said working together is within the rules, even sharign ships and setups is fine within the rules
What I have also said is the first time Waffles went for the tournament, everyone threw a fit and the 2 teams couldn't even talk to one another from the time practice started until the AT was over.....Now, the rules have changed over the years relaxing that a bit, but we have stayed the course to eliminate any sense of impropriety, yet hydra/Warlords/Camel have basically laughed at us and cheated (Once for sure, twice we will find out soon)
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Lovey Dovey
Great Game Mechanic GoonSwarm
3
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 17:21:06 -
[157] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Im not saying that, if they fixed matches i want them banned. Im saying a lot of pl guys are claiming that the working together as 1 team part is basicely the bad thing, but it is of no matter at all.
Actually that is part of the overarching problem with regards to how CCP are enforcing the rules as there's a case of double standards being applied either intentionally or unintentionally. For example: Waffles were denied entrance into the AT for years because they were affiliated with PL, despite having their own logistics support, financial independence, and so forth. The reason they were told they couldn't initially join the AT, and later were told they couldn't practices, share comps, or ships with PL's team, was because of the concern they would collude following Hydra's antics in ATIX. Then later on in another AT you have two teams competing comprised of Hydra members & corps (some of whome rejoined Hydra after the tournament) openly say they're sharing logistics, fleet comps, tactics, & even AT ships. It's sort of silly to say "you guys can't do this, but you guys totally can and that's a fair thing." It's one of the problems CCP needs to address with regards to how the AT is ran, since that "A & B Team" situation contributed to the match fixing that is the cause for this thread. |
Mr Rive
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
103
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 17:41:45 -
[158] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote:W0lf Crendraven wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote:W0lf Crendraven wrote:Literally all you pl people are on about is camel and warlords/hydra beeing 1 team, that isnt the issue, never was the issue and is totally legal. Its all about if they turned their bo3 into a bo1 or not and if the finals were legit. I guess you weren't around for the Drama Lama when Waffles tried to enter the tournament for the first time were you..... Who cares about that, its specifically says that what they did, bar the actual match fixing and gentlemans rules, i.e beeing 1 team, training together, trading ships, trading setups, splitting pizes and so on is 100% legal. So, basically, everything they did was OK, EXCEPT the part where they cheated But that is OK, we shouldn't worry about that part, look at everything they did that was OK?? Im not saying that, if they fixed matches i want them banned. Im saying a lot of pl guys are claiming that the working together as 1 team part is basicely the bad thing, but it is of no matter at all.
again, its not against the rules, that doesnt mean it isnt goddamn stupid and should be stopped. If youre working together as one team, you should be one team, not one team with a much higher chance of winning.
If you really want to play that game, how many teams do you recon PL could field this way if we wanted to go all douchey like hydra? Do you really want us to ruin the tournament because it's not 'technically against the rules?' |
RoCkEt X
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
140
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 19:14:38 -
[159] - Quote
EHRMAGERD DRAMA LLAMA |
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
342
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 19:58:32 -
[160] - Quote
Hail Hydra
source: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1356138#post1356138
The players will make a better version of the game, then CCP initially plans.
http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg
The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
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Yazoul Samaiel
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 09:35:32 -
[161] - Quote
Oh dear such Drama.
On the other hand goons whining about something they are terrible at as always
Maybe CCP should also nerf the tourney and make a spelling contest or something that goons might win at although that would be doubtful as well. |
Javeeik
The Tuskers The Tuskers Co.
2
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 13:48:17 -
[162] - Quote
Quote:Im not saying that, if they fixed matches i want them banned. Im saying a lot of pl guys are claiming that the working together as 1 team part is basicely the bad thing, but it is of no matter at all.
Quote:again, its not against the rules, that doesnt mean it isnt goddamn stupid and should be stopped. If youre working together as one team, you should be one team, not one team with a much higher chance of winning.
If you really want to play that game, how many teams do you recon PL could field this way if we wanted to go all douchey like hydra? Do you really want us to ruin the tournament because it's not 'technically against the rules?'
Are you reading a different reply to me somehow? I dont understand how you arrived at this response? the only point wolf is making is that this discussion should soley revolve around the allogation they predetermined a result.
This:
Quote: Actually that is part of the overarching problem with regards to how CCP are enforcing the rules that contributed to the current situation. For example: Waffles were denied entrance into the AT for years because they were affiliated with PL, despite having their own logistics support, financial independence, and so forth. The reason they were told they couldn't initially join the AT, and later were told they couldn't practices, share comps, or ships with PL's team, was because of the concern they would collude. Following Hydra's antics in ATIX, Waffles were permitted to compete but there were allegations they would collude and thus were told they couldn't coordinate with PL with regards to AT practices, logistics, etc.
Later on in another AT you then have two teams competing comprised of Hydra members & corps (some of whom rejoined Hydra after the tournament, like Genos Occidere who up until January were also in Camel) openly say they're sharing logistics, fleet comps, tactics, & even AT ships. It's sort of silly to have CCP say "you guys can't do this, but you guys can" and think that's any semblance of equal application of the rules. The ability to share ships, tactics, and logistics is one of the problems CCP needs to address with regards to how the AT is ran since this whole "A & B Team" situation contributed to the alleged match fixing that this thread is a result of.
Is a good point, but thats something for another year and a seperate issue CCP need to either address or not as they see fit. |
Lovey Dovey
Great Game Mechanic GoonSwarm
6
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 17:14:40 -
[163] - Quote
Yazoul Samaiel wrote:On the other hand goons whining about something they are terrible at as always
Hi, Yaz.
Why'd you get purged from PL?
Javeeik wrote: This:
Is a good point, but thats something for another year and a seperate issue CCP need to either address or not as they see fit.
Not really. It's a contributing factor to this current situation. CCP allowed a team to run an A & B team setup, share all sorts of assets & logistics, and so forth. That in turn is part of why the pre-arranged matches that are being alleged came about, the close proximity of two teams working together and sharing assets.
It's not as bad as when these same players involved in this issue thought having Hydra & Outbreak being in a singular corp on Sisi during testing for a previous AT was a totally OK thing to do. CCP banned them from competing that year when they found out, so we all know how well that works. These are all symptoms of the same problem; you shouldn't be allowed to field multiple teams from the same alliance solely for the AT, let alone be allowed to share everything under the sun save for pilots. Realistically, this is an issue CCP needs to address and prevent now rather than in a year.
Hell, there's even the insinuation that Garmon,who was supposedly permabanned for RMT, was logging in on an alt to play which is against the EULA/TOS when it comes to bypassing bans issued by CCP. Which if true, is comically dumb of Hydra to do.
In short, Hydra/Camels/Warlords knew they were cheating, got caught breaking AT rules for an alleged third time and are confused why they're not being coddled by CCP. |
Mr Rive
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
108
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 18:45:32 -
[164] - Quote
Lovey Dovey wrote:Yazoul Samaiel wrote:On the other hand goons whining about something they are terrible at as always Hi, Yaz. Why'd you get purged from PL? Javeeik wrote: This:
Is a good point, but thats something for another year and a seperate issue CCP need to either address or not as they see fit.
Not really. It's a contributing factor to this current situation. CCP allowed a team to run an A & B team setup, share all sorts of assets & logistics, and so forth. That in turn is part of why the pre-arranged matches that are being alleged came about, the close proximity of two teams working together and sharing assets. It's not as bad as when these same players involved in this issue thought having Hydra & Outbreak being in a singular corp on Sisi during testing for a previous AT was a totally OK thing to do. CCP banned them from competing that year when they found out, so we all know how well that works. These are all symptoms of the same problem; you shouldn't be allowed to field multiple teams from the same alliance solely for the AT, let alone be allowed to share everything under the sun save for pilots. Realistically, this is an issue CCP needs to address and prevent now rather than in a year. Hell, there's even the insinuation that Garmon,who was supposedly permabanned for RMT, was logging in on an alt to play which is against the EULA/TOS when it comes to bypassing bans issued by CCP. Which if true, is comically dumb of Hydra to do. In short, Hydra/Camels/Warlords knew they were cheating, got caught breaking AT rules for an alleged third time and are confused why they're not being coddled by CCP.
smart post.
Yez got purged because he is a terrible poster. He is welcome back any time he learns that grathtelkin is the #1 top *****.
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1090
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 05:37:40 -
[165] - Quote
Lovey Dovey wrote:got caught breaking AT rules for an alleged third time In ATIX collusion was not against the rules. HYDRA practiced with Outbreak, we fixed matches, no rules were broken.
In ATX HYDRA, Outbreak and YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT were all excluded from the tournament before it began.
You can read the official post by CCP here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1356138#post1356138. All three groups had their application fees returned and no further action was taken. Please note that YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT is a PL affiliated group, so any offense we can be accused of comitting in ATX can be equally leveled at PL, but in reality no actual offense was committed by any of these groups - they just were not eligible to enter the tournament that year due to a change in policy decided upon by CCP and acted upon at a very late stage.
So there is no history of cheating in HYDRA. There is however a history of playing to the limit of the rules, in order to win, and occasionally being the victim of unfortunate CCP decisions. A history that we share with PL, our chief detractor.
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Mr Rive
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
108
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 13:33:33 -
[166] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Lovey Dovey wrote:got caught breaking AT rules for an alleged third time In ATIX collusion was not against the rules. HYDRA practiced with Outbreak, we fixed matches, no rules were broken. In ATX HYDRA, Outbreak and YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT were all excluded from the tournament before it began. You can read the official post by CCP here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1356138#post1356138. All three groups had their application fees returned and no further action was taken. Please note that YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT is a PL affiliated group, so any offense we can be accused of comitting in ATX can be equally leveled at PL, but in reality no actual offense was committed by any of these groups - they just were not eligible to enter the tournament that year due to a change in policy decided upon by CCP and acted upon at a very late stage. So there is no history of cheating in HYDRA. There is however a history of playing to the limit of the rules, in order to win, and occasionally being the victim of unfortunate CCP decisions. A history that we share with PL, our chief detractor.
WE HAVE FOUND WEAPONS OF MASS DISTRUCTION IN IRAQ WE WIN MISSION ACCOMPLISHED :aircraftcarrier: |
Lovey Dovey
Great Game Mechanic GoonSwarm
6
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 17:08:35 -
[167] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:In ATIX collusion was not against the rules. HYDRA practiced with Outbreak, we fixed matches, no rules were broken. In ATX HYDRA, Outbreak and YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT were all excluded from the tournament before it began. You can read the official post by CCP here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1356138#post1356138. All three groups had their application fees returned and no further action was taken. Please note that YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT is a PL affiliated group, so any offense we can be accused of comitting in ATX can be equally leveled at PL, but in reality no actual offense was committed by any of these groups - they just were not eligible to enter the tournament that year due to a change in policy decided upon by CCP and acted upon at a very late stage. So there is no history of cheating in HYDRA. There is however a history of playing to the limit of the rules, in order to win, and occasionally being the victim of unfortunate CCP decisions. A history that we share with PL, our chief detractor.
"we fixed matches once and got caught breaking the rules the next year, but guys it's CCP making the bad decisions not us. You should also ignore that we recently got accused of cheating again and having our prize ships confiscated. Did you know Waffles & PL are from the same social group! They're cheating too! :reddit:" - Sad Bobby
You are either really dumb or just desperate. Probably a mix of both. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1090
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 03:52:38 -
[168] - Quote
Lovey Dovey wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Lovey Dovey wrote:got caught breaking AT rules for an alleged third time In ATIX collusion was not against the rules. HYDRA practiced with Outbreak, we fixed matches, no rules were broken. In ATX HYDRA, Outbreak and YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT were all excluded from the tournament before it began. You can read the official post by CCP here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1356138#post1356138. All three groups had their application fees returned and no further action was taken. Please note that YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT is a PL affiliated group, so any offense we can be accused of comitting in ATX can be equally leveled at PL, but in reality no actual offense was committed by any of these groups - they just were not eligible to enter the tournament that year due to a change in policy decided upon by CCP and acted upon at a very late stage. So there is no history of cheating in HYDRA. There is however a history of playing to the limit of the rules, in order to win, and occasionally being the victim of unfortunate CCP decisions. A history that we share with PL, our chief detractor. "we fixed matches once and got caught breaking the rules the next year, but guys it's CCP making the bad decisions not us. You should also ignore that we recently got accused of cheating again and having our prize ships confiscated. Did you know Waffles & PL are from the same social group! They're cheating too! :reddit:" - Sad Bobby You are either really dumb or just desperate. Probably a mix of both. No, just pointing out that your statement about our history was factually incorrect. |
Lovey Dovey
Great Game Mechanic GoonSwarm
6
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 21:45:29 -
[169] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:No, just pointing out that your statement about our history was factually incorrect.
Yeah you're right, you only got caught twice including this current incident and that's totally different. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1090
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 03:17:04 -
[170] - Quote
Lovey Dovey wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:No, just pointing out that your statement about our history was factually incorrect. Yeah you're right, you only got caught twice including this current incident and that's totally different. No, we have never been caught cheating.
It is totally different, because what I'm saying is true and what you are saying is false.
Since true and false are opposites, that is as different as it is possible to be. |
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Lovey Dovey
Great Game Mechanic GoonSwarm
6
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 04:57:19 -
[171] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:No, we have never been caught cheating.
Yeah, no. You got caught cheating in the build up to ATX, which was why you were barred from competing that year. There has also been enough evidence of breaking the rules for the AT this year that CCP have decided to prevent your group access to the winnings.
That's not making things up, those are things that actually happened in the manner in which they happened. You can pretend they didn't but that would just be your cognitive dissonance. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1090
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Posted - 2015.09.21 06:51:30 -
[172] - Quote
Lovey Dovey wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:No, we have never been caught cheating. Yeah, no. You got caught cheating in the build up to ATX, which was why you were barred from competing that year. No. HYDRA, Outbreak and Waffles were ruled ineligible to compete in ATX. We therefore were unable to compete in ATX and likewise were unable to cheat in ATX. All this was concluded before ATX started.
See this quote from CCP:
CCP Sreegs wrote:It is because of these philosophical beliefs and changes that we have come to the tough decision of removing three teams from eligibility for competition in Alliance Tournament X. Notice that it doesn't say "HYDRA, Outbreak and Waffles are cheating so we've banned them from the tournament". It doesn't say that because that isn't what happened.
Lovey Dovey wrote:There has also been enough evidence of breaking the rules for the AT this year that CCP have decided to prevent your group access to the winnings. There has been an allegation of cheating in this year's AT. An allegation that has not been upheld by CCP at this time. An allegation that is not supported by anything other than hearsay at this time. Until CCP rules either way on the allegations, they are just allegations, not facts.
Lovey Dovey wrote:That's not making things up, those are things that actually happened in the manner in which they happened. No it isn't and CCP historical verdicts on these matters are publicly available for anyone to verify the truth of it.
You started out claiming that we were caught breaking AT rules three times. Which is simply false.
Now your new interpreation is that the ATX verdict was a ruling that we were cheating and the ATXIII verdict (that hasn't even been given yet) is a ruling that we were cheating.
You can argue with me on these points as much as you like, but the facts remain the same. There is no history of cheating in HYDRA. That may or may not change once CCP returns the results of their investigation.
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DeadDuck
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
165
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 09:38:43 -
[173] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:You can argue with me on these points as much as you like, but the facts remain the same. There is no history of cheating in HYDRA.
Yeah... reminds me those Offshore Companys based in the Cook Islands. They are "legal", but for some odd reason the market knows that Tax Haven as "Crook Islands"... |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1090
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Posted - 2015.09.21 09:49:19 -
[174] - Quote
DeadDuck wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:You can argue with me on these points as much as you like, but the facts remain the same. There is no history of cheating in HYDRA. Yeah... reminds me those Offshore Companys based in the Cook Islands. They are "legal", but for some odd reason the market knows that Tax Haven as "Crook Islands"... It is still legal though.
If it were to become illegal, there would no longer be a need to joke about it being the "Crook Islands".
Once CCP changed the rules, we changed our behaviour in order to comply with them. There were obviously some issues with timing that meant we found ourselves on the wrong side of a CCP ruling for ATX. |
DeadDuck
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
165
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 10:00:58 -
[175] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:[quote=DeadDuck] It is still legal though.
They are known by "Crook Islands" it's because the only thing legal is actually the Company, the facade, the name "Hydra" in this paralelism, if you prefer. What happens behind those facades it's very illegal...
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1090
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 10:07:06 -
[176] - Quote
DeadDuck wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:[quote=DeadDuck] It is still legal though.
They are known by "Crook Islands" it's because the only thing legal is actually the Company, the facade, the name "Hydra" in this paralelism, if you prefer. What happens behind those facades it's very illegal... I bow to your knowledge of these RL matters.
But the parallel is false, because in-game HYDRA appears to be crooked but actually obeys the rules to the letter.
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Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
1065
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 16:20:05 -
[177] - Quote
stop nitpicking, (legal) cheater. |
Lovey Dovey
Great Game Mechanic GoonSwarm
6
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 18:18:49 -
[178] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Notice that it doesn't say "HYDRA, Outbreak and Waffles are cheating so we've banned them from the tournament". It doesn't say that because that isn't what happened.
It's adorable that after however many years you still think that two alliances merging into a corp and sharing assets, in which they shared no assets, logistics etc. is the same as an affiliated alliance like Waffles being wholly independent of PL when it comes to their assets & logistics for the AT.
Hint: They're not nor will they ever be.
Quote:An allegation that is not supported by anything other than hearsay at this time.
CCP haven't acted on hearsay though. They haven't even said anything about what sort of evidence they've received to prompt their investigation. So your claim is false. Please try to keep to the facts and not make things up.
Quote:Now your new interpretation is that the ATX verdict was a ruling that we were cheating and the ATXIII verdict (that hasn't even been given yet) is a ruling that we were cheating.
You don't get barred from competing because you didn't break the rules CCP laid out. They told Hydra/Outbreak they weren't allowed to merge into a singular corp for testing as that was against the rules, and they were breaking the rules.
I also said "allegedly" for this current situation, please try to read more carefully next time.
Quote:There is no history of cheating in HYDRA.
Except for that time you were barred for breaking the AT rules for ATX during testing, and right now while HYDRA members are being investigated for match fixing which is against the ATXIII rules. |
Mr Rive
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
109
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 18:35:33 -
[179] - Quote
I'm so please someone from HYDA came along, I've been hoping they would for a while.
There is no further proof needed that hydra will do anything that they think they can get away with to make as much isk as possible from the tournament.
There's no point arguing with them, just read their posts, and smile, because they know the game theyre playing, you know the game they're playing, but they will never admit it, you dont need to convince them that what theyre doing is wrong, they know. They just don't care because they make a LOT of money doing it. They have a lot invested in it, so why would anything anyone says convince them that what theyre doing is wrong? It's not wrong in their eyes.
It took someone with a conscience inside HYDRA to secure in CCP's minds that something had to be done, this year was just the final straw, theyve pushed it as far as they can, made as much money off it as they can, now all theyre doing is trying to cover their asses so the next scheme they come up with to make as much money in the AT as possible will be confused as much as possible, so they can keep it going as long as they can, like they did with this scheme.
Games over Bobby, you lost this battle. The question is whether you lose the war, and that depends on CCP's responce to the incident.
Go on Bobby, tell me I'm wrong. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1091
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Posted - 2015.09.21 19:05:39 -
[180] - Quote
I've already dealt with all those arguments, please bring some new ones. |
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Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
170
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 23:02:26 -
[181] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:I've already dealt with all those arguments, please bring some new ones. No you tried to claim Hydra is comparable to PL and gloss over the fact that Hydra and all it's heads were blocked from participating for a year as a lesson for the ruined final and Hydramel is currently being investigated with it's prizes held in stasis.
So, no, not the same as none of that has ever happened to PL.
This isn't because Hydra 'lives on the edge' unluckily being the victim of CCPs judgements, it's because Hydra directly attacks and insults CCP by trying to ruin Alliance Tournaments - this isn't metagaming or trolling as it's target is the company itself, it's just stupid. Which is something PL has never done, even though CCP tries to recruit our best players.
But your spin is worthy of a Dead or Alive one hit wonder, so carry on. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1091
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Posted - 2015.09.22 02:55:00 -
[182] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:No you tried to claim Hydra is comparable to PL Only in reference to a specific CCP ruling, which impacted both of our groups:
CCP Sreegs wrote:Running list of removed teams:
Hydra Reloaded Outbreak. YOUR VOTES DONGÇÖT COUNT Bad Bobby wrote:in reality no actual offense was committed by any of these groups - they just were not eligible to enter the tournament that year due to a change in policy decided upon by CCP and acted upon at a very late stage. And in reference to my view that both teams play to win and bring all of their resources to that fight:
Bad Bobby wrote:There is however a history of playing to the limit of the rules, in order to win, and occasionally being the victim of unfortunate CCP decisions. A history that we share with PL, our chief detractor. So I'm not accusing PL of anything, other than slinging mud at us, for which their is ample evidence in this thread.
Captain Thunk wrote:Hydra directly attacks and insults CCP by trying to ruin Alliance Tournaments - this isn't metagaming or trolling as it's target is the company itself, it's just stupid. The truth is that HYDRA does not want to ruin Alliance Tournaments, the only one we believe we ruined (ATIX) was a massive **** up on our part and did not go according to our plan at all.
We were punished for that through the exclusion from ATX, which hit both of our teams, while CCP only decided to exclude one of yours. That's because they had a reason to be vengeful against HYDRA and no reason to be so against PL. We understand that we ruined the ATIX final, we understand that we caused CCP a massive embarrassment and lost them money. We are sorry for that and have no intention of repeating that performance.
None of this changes the simple fact that CCP has never upheld any claims that HYDRA has broken AT rules. Which is why I've been posting to set the record straight about that, because people claiming that we have broken AT rules on a whole load of occasions are just re-interpreting history out of ignorance or malice. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1091
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 02:57:33 -
[183] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:This isn't because Hydra 'lives on the edge' unluckily being the victim of CCPs judgements That exclusion was down to two things: bad timing and bad feelings.
The change of CCP attitude came suddenly and left us on the wrong side of the ATX entry requirements. We didn't have any time to fix that, because the entrance deadline had passed.
The bad feelings from CCP were justified and I totally understand why they came down hard on us that year. |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
170
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 03:44:20 -
[184] - Quote
And you've missed that Waffles has never been associated with PL in the way that Hydra's heads are.
Waffles use the same website and services so there's an *opportunity* for it to happen, but PL has clearly never used that opportunity which is evident simply by looking at the results in all of the tournaments ever. I think even you will agree that it's obvious that PL provides no actual support other than cheering those loveable little guys on during their matches.
Whenever CCP decides that because there is a link, even if it's not exploited, and Waffles can't participate then we just live with it as it's understandable that the public can be deceived into that kind of thing is happening when Hydra is clearly doing what it does even if we're not.
It's a shame though for Waffles isn't it? Man, they're loveable. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1091
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 04:00:51 -
[185] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:And you've missed that Waffles has never been associated with PL in the way that Hydra's heads are.
Waffles use the same website and services so there's an *opportunity* for it to happen, but PL has clearly never used that opportunity which is evident simply by looking at the results in all of the tournaments ever. I think even you will agree that it's obvious that PL provides no actual support other than cheering those loveable little guys on during their matches.
Whenever CCP decides that because there is a link, even if it's not exploited, and Waffles can't participate then we just live with it as it's understandable that the public can be deceived into that kind of thing is happening when Hydra is clearly doing what it does even if we're not.
It's a shame though for Waffles isn't it? Man, they're loveable. It isn't me that keeps bringing up the link between PL and Waffles.
I personally don't think that the PL/Waffles link (or the link with Horde) is in any way relevant.
I did mention it myself as a minor aside, because it was somewhat relevant to discrediting some specific claims about HYDRA breaking AT rules. But I don't think it's a slight against PL and I made that abundantly clear in several posts.
While there may be some people who do think that PL/Waffles/Horde are an A/B/C team collective, I am not one of them. I also don't think any of that matters either way, because in my opinion A/B/C or even D teams aren't the core issue with the current AT rules.
I feel the core issue is that the current rules encourage and reward destructive metagaming to change the course of the AT in a way that most other teams cannot compete with.
I don't really have an issue with people throwing matches so that they can win big on EVE-bet, because it's not really significant in the grand scheme of things, nobody who has a fighting chance of getting AT ships has any reason to pull that kind of stunt for a few hundred bill on the side. So I don't think that issue has any more impact than inserting hostile agents in enemy AT teams in order to disrupt them and force under-performance in matches.
I'd like to see an AT structure and ruleset where nobody stands to gain anything from losing a match, but that's not what we have now.
[EDIT] Also, as an ex-PL veteran, I support Waffles and Horde as much as you do. That is to say, with cheers and the occasional eve-bet. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1092
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 04:46:07 -
[186] - Quote
Warlords and Camel are practice partners that share logistics, resources, theorycrafting, setups, prizes and a common ethos. None of this is up for debate and none of this is illegal in this year's AT.
What PL, Waffles and Horde do with respect to the above isn't relevant. Because it wouldn't be illegal for them just the same as it isn't illegal for Warlords and Camel. Plus they aren't the ones being investigated.
So I personally think we can put all that **** to bed.
The issues to debate are:
1) Did Warlords and Camel throw matches / have house rules? Because if they did then they are in breach of the rules.
2) Are the current rules and AT structure fit for purpose?
Since the answer to #1 is unknown and unknowable for any of us not directly involved, there isn't really much to debate. The evidence made public so far is pretty pathetic and lacks any kind of corroboration, so unless CCP can find some hard evidence or are willing to make a brutal judgement without such evidence, it really doesn't matter.
I found it interesting that CCP made a public announcement of their investigation, before anything beyond hearsay had been put forward publicly as evidence. It looked to me like they were going on a fishing expedition in the hope that someone would come forward to corroborate DHB's claims, because otherwise the idea of publicly announcing an investigation that had every chance of failing and turning in to another embarrassing PR disaster for CCP was pretty foolish. But maybe they were handed the smoking gun by someone, since they haven't said anything we cannot tell, except the fact they haven't said anything is pretty telling. Why sit on the smoking gun when this whole debacle can be put to bed?
So I, like you, am waiting for CCP's response on this issue. I know what my friends and alliance mates have said and I know where my loyalties and trust lies, so my feeling is that CCP will come back empty. Of course I may be wrong, but even still it'll be another fun tale to add to the EVE history books.
I think #2 is a subject that is fit for debate at this time. Because it doesn't matter what the result of CCP's current investigation is, the rules and AT structure need improvement.
The fact that they need to investigate allegations like this at all is a problem. The AT should be set up so these things are cut and dried and the results of matches can stand without question. Because while that isn't the case, we are going to see this kind of drama explosion on a regular basis, since why not cook up some chat logs and submit them to CCP whenever the AT result isn't to your liking? You know what they'll do, since they've set a precedent and you know they'll take time carrying out their investigation, so why not **** up the forums, troll the AT winners and inconvenience them with bogus confiscations whenever you can?
Running the AT this way is a recipe for disaster in my opinion. Sure, that disaster is impacting my friends at this point in time, but it'll also impact any other AT winner that has bitter and unscrupulous enemies going forward (and that's every AT winner). |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
170
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 05:37:06 -
[187] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote: 1) Did Warlords and Camel throw matches / have house rules? Because if they did then they are in breach of the rules.
2) Are the current rules and AT structure fit for purpose?
1) Pure conjecture, let's be real none of us are 'in the know'. According to DHB Wildcat, even he wasn't aware until the final weekend and it was only his frustration that led to an alleged convo over Skype with the team captain where the captain confided in him. The question is, why would he lie and put everything on the line? If, as you suggested earlier, it's a troll then it's backfired for reasons I've stated numerous times and I hardly think CCP are going to look too kindly to their time being wasted all for someones elaborate joke. So to me, in addition to DHBs reputation, it would seem he's telling the truth because there's no alternative motive that fits.
2) I think you said yourself in an ealier post that they clearly are not, which fits in with PLs line of thinking which had been pointing out the obvious problems before the AT even got underway. It's kinda sad as it was so avoidable, I've listed numerous ways the Hydra heads could have colluded within the rules, but because they couldn't, fan favourites like Waffles are unlikely to ever be allowed to participate again because of something that Hydra does and noone else does. I mean, let's face it - it's not exactly ~clever manipulation of the rules that noone else saw~. It's just that the other 62 teams playing in the AT all got it, we didn't have Goonswarm fielding 20 teams just for the lolz or anyone else. To make it much much worse this is all after CCP lopped of a bunch of Hydra heads a few years ago to underscore the point. Again, everyone else got the message except Hydra. It's naive to say that no-one else saw the scope for the abuse when they were saying it before the Tournament started, it's just everyone else understands that taking on the company itself is a lot different to trolling players.
I think we need to face the fact that Hydra is the Lance Armstrong of Eve, there will never be a sincere apology, nothings going to change and he doesn't even think it's cheating. So everyone else pays for Hydra's arrogance even after it was given a very clear warning that singled it exclusively out.
So yeah, CCP is going to have to spend a lot of extra time clarifying AT rules to the minutest detail specifically and solely for Hydra, the other 62 teams got the message years ago. Waffles and any other fan favourites similarly affected will just have to accept they don't get to play anymore. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1092
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 06:32:52 -
[188] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:1) Pure conjecture, let's be real none of us are 'in the know'. According to DHB Wildcat, even he wasn't aware until the final weekend and it was only his frustration that led to an alleged convo over Skype with the team captain where the captain confided in him. Absolutely.
Captain Thunk wrote:The question is, why would he lie and put everything on the line? Every part of DHB's behavior with respect to this case has been foolish in my eyes and betraying his team mates, regardless of the truth or otherwise of the allegations, is just plain bad.
As to why:
The most obvious reason is he was upset and just exploded all over the forums.
Given the nature and content of his post, that looks pretty accurate. Since he had already decided to leave the team and clearly wasn't willing to take steps to defuse the bad blood between him and his ex-team mates, he wasn't putting anything on the line by throwing a handful of uncorroborated allegations and salty comments around.
Unfortunately Kadesh decided to turn it in to a lover's quarrel and escalate the whole thing with personal attacks in the opposite direction. This was even more foolish than DHB's behaviour in my opinion.
Once Kadesh started slinging **** back at DHB, it turned into a freakshow and DHB took the obvious next step by submitting a ticket to CCP, causing what would have been just a minor altercation between two idiots to turn in to an official case requiring an investigation. It was at this point that DHB put something on the line, not before, because at this point he was risking his own AT rewards.
Obviously if DHB's allegations were false, he had total control over that risk, because he would have known there was no case to answer for and it would just be an escalation shitstorm that would eventually blow itself out. If DHB's allegations were true then, and only then, was he actually risking anything he hadn't already sacrificed.
So either DHB just thew a drama hand-grenade and walked away. Knowing nothing would really come of it.
Or he was forced by his emotions and e-honor to bring down his own team for an offense that was either real or perceived.
Either option is entirely plausible and consistent. Both are things we've seen many times before.
Captain Thunk wrote:If, as you suggested earlier, it's a troll then it's backfired for reasons I've stated numerous times and I hardly think CCP are going to look too kindly to their time being wasted all for someones elaborate joke. I assumed this would be the cause because of my long experience with HYDRA. It may not make sense from the outside, but from the inside a massive self-inflicted drama bomb apocalypse was always very likely.
Sane minds do not often prevail in HYDRA. But tbh, that's one of the reasons why I've enjoyed my time in HYDRA so much.
Captain Thunk wrote:So to me, in addition to DHBs reputation, it would seem he's telling the truth because there's no alternative motive that fits. I think that line of reasoning assumes that DHB carefully planned this out, wasn't just raging hard on the forums and didn't just escalate after being raged back at.
Looking at his posts, I don't see any sign of careful planning, wisdom, caution or even the effort to make coherent arguments. I think he was just throwing his toys out of the pram.
I think stupidity is a far more compelling cause to this drama than conspiracy.
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1092
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 06:47:52 -
[189] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:2) I think you said yourself in an ealier post that they clearly are not, which fits in with PLs line of thinking which had been pointing out the obvious problems before the AT even got underway. It's kinda sad as it was so avoidable Yeah, we're on the same page.
Captain Thunk wrote:I've listed numerous ways the Hydra heads could have colluded within the rules And in my mind that's even more reason to question the allegations. But that's issue #1, not issue #2, so I'll move on.
Captain Thunk wrote:fan favourites like Waffles are unlikely to ever be allowed to participate again because of something that Hydra does and noone else does. I'd hate to see that be the case.
Captain Thunk wrote:I mean, let's face it - it's not exactly ~clever manipulation of the rules that noone else saw~. It's just that the other 62 teams playing in the AT all got it, we didn't have Goonswarm fielding 20 teams just for the lolz or anyone else. To make it much much worse this is all after CCP lopped of a bunch of Hydra heads a few years ago to underscore the point. Again, everyone else got the message except Hydra. It's naive to say that no-one else saw the scope for the abuse when they were saying it before the Tournament started, It was an obvious approach to take if you want maximum rewards.
But obviously, only people who can put together two or more winning teams can really expect to benefit from it. Goonswarm could have fielded 20 teams just for the lolz, but none of them would have had a realistic chance of winning. They would have had to enter enough teams to exclude all the potential winners in order to gain anything and that's just not a realistic plan.
Everyone saw what was happening, because nobody was hiding it. The commentators spoke repeatedly on this matter, because there was no effort or need to hide what was entirely within the rules.
The fact that those rules were bad isn't a crime that HYDRA, Warlords or Camel committed. They just do what people who play to win do and they took advantage of every opportunity they could to win and maximize that win. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1092
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 06:57:01 -
[190] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:it's just everyone else understands that taking on the company itself is a lot different to trolling players. Really, nobody in HYDRA, Warlords or Camel wants to **** on CCP. That is just an opinion you and others have formed. It's just not true.
Captain Thunk wrote:So yeah, CCP is going to have to spend a lot of extra time clarifying AT rules to the minutest detail specifically and solely for Hydra, the other 62 teams got the message years ago. Waffles and any other fan favourites similarly affected will just have to accept they don't get to play anymore. I very much hope not, but I don't see why this has to be the case.
It would seem like a pretty stupid way of progressing from this point to repeat the same mistakes that CCP have made countless times in the past. It's pointless for a small company like CCP with finite resources, finite skills and finite knowledge to attempt to out smart the rest of the playerbase. It's never worked before and it'll never work in the future.
Just formulate tournament rules and a tournament structure that aims for the achievable. Make it so nobody achieves a benefit in the AT from throwing a match in the AT. Sure, they can win big on EVE-bet or something but that hardly matters.
It then doesn't matter how many teams I enter from my multi-headed troll beast. Because I can only win if I win. There is no incentive to throw matches, there is no reason for destructive collusion and there is no need for CCP to investigate such allegations to the detriment of everyone. The sandbox metagaming that EVE is famous for can carry on without any unnecessary impact on the tournament.
The idea of handing the AT over to the lawyers is just plain silly. I very much hope CCP doesn't go that way. |
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Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
170
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 07:15:41 -
[191] - Quote
Wow, 3 poasts to plough through.
I'll get around to reading them later maybe, but one of the last lines did catch my eye as I scrolled frantically for the bottom of the abyss.
Quote:It then doesn't matter how many teams I enter from my multi-headed troll beast. Because I can only win if I win.
As a spectator sport it dies, no-one wants to watch a handful of rich alliances buy up all the AT slots and play with themselves. Again, this is what I said in my considerably shorter poast, Everyone else understands what the Alliance Tournament is except Hydra - I dunno, they just seem to think it's plural or something, whereas literally every other alliance in the game - most notably the ones with the dodgiest reputations all managed to understand it.
Though I do understand CCPs problem, I mean, I'm having a hard time helping you understand and you're not even on one of the Hydra AT teams. I don't want to think how many pictures and diagrams CCP have wasted their time making trying to explain to Hydra Team Captains how it's meant to work.
I really wouldn't be overly surprised if CCP just decides not to bother doing it's annual head banging against the wall ritual anymore. |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
170
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 07:17:09 -
[192] - Quote
This is a second post because you seem like a nice enough dude and I don't want people to think you're on your own with your epic defence arguments that span several posts. Trust me, I'm good at distraction. |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
170
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 07:18:26 -
[193] - Quote
Yep, that worked. See? Fooled 'em all |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1092
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 07:23:38 -
[194] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:one of the last lines did catch my eye as I scrolled frantically for the bottom of the abyss. Quote:It then doesn't matter how many teams I enter from my multi-headed troll beast. Because I can only win if I win. As a spectator sport it dies, no-one wants to watch a handful of rich alliances buy up all the AT slots and play with themselves My point is that it doesn't matter. If there is no massive advantage to be gained from doing it, we will not do it. Chances are nobody else will do it either. Remove the incentive to do things that are bad for the AT and people will probably stop doing things that are bad for the AT. Continue to directly encourage destructive behavior by giving an incentive to throw matches for your own teams benefit and this **** will continue. |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
170
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 07:25:10 -
[195] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Captain Thunk wrote:one of the last lines did catch my eye as I scrolled frantically for the bottom of the abyss. Quote:It then doesn't matter how many teams I enter from my multi-headed troll beast. Because I can only win if I win. As a spectator sport it dies, no-one wants to watch a handful of rich alliances buy up all the AT slots and play with themselves My point is that it doesn't matter. If there is no massive advantage to be gained from doing it, we will not do it. Chances are nobody else will do it either. Remove the incentive to do things that are bad for the AT and people will probably stop doing things that are bad for the AT. Continue to directly encourage destructive behavior by giving an incentive to throw matches for your own teams benefit and this **** will continue.
Yeah, I'm sure Lance Armstrong wouldn't have bothered with performance enhancing drugs either if they didn't offer him an overpowering advantage.
Blame the drugs, not Lance. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1092
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 07:28:47 -
[196] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Captain Thunk wrote:one of the last lines did catch my eye as I scrolled frantically for the bottom of the abyss. Quote:It then doesn't matter how many teams I enter from my multi-headed troll beast. Because I can only win if I win. As a spectator sport it dies, no-one wants to watch a handful of rich alliances buy up all the AT slots and play with themselves My point is that it doesn't matter. If there is no massive advantage to be gained from doing it, we will not do it. Chances are nobody else will do it either. Remove the incentive to do things that are bad for the AT and people will probably stop doing things that are bad for the AT. Continue to directly encourage destructive behavior by giving an incentive to throw matches for your own teams benefit and this **** will continue. Yeah, I'm sure Lance Armstrong wouldn't have bothered with performance enhancing drugs either if they didn't offer him an overpowering advantage. Indeed. There would have been no sense in him doing so. Hence my point.
Captain Thunk wrote:Blame the drugs, not Lance. Blame Lance for using the drugs, sure.
But don't bury your head in the sand and say that drugs don't exist and the advantages they offer don't exist.
Unfortunately for RL sports they don't occur in a controlled environment where these things can be trivially eliminated. |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
170
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 07:31:31 -
[197] - Quote
So what you're saying is after countless warnings and explanations, even though every single other competing alliance gets it, Hydra just cannot possibly resist the temptation to cheat? And it's CCPs fault for not instituting a 300 page explanation of the rules that locks every possible avenue down.
I guess I can agree with that, you drive a long and arduous argument my friend.
It's a shame others, not Hydra, are likely to pay the price for Hydra's inability to just not cheat for once.
Poor ol' Waffles :( |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1092
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 07:36:23 -
[198] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:So what you're saying is after countless warnings and explainations, even though every single other competing alliance gets it, Hydra just cannot possibly resist the temptation to cheat? No, I'm saying that there are simple ways to make the tournament better, regardless of who competes. You don't have to leave massive holes in the AT structure and ruleset that invite bad people to drive busses through them.
It really doesn't matter if HYDRA is guilty of what you claim or not, the rules still need to be improved.
Just asking everyone to behave in an honorable way and not cause any drama or trouble isn't going to work. The idea that it would is just plain stupid.
Make the rules reflect the AT you want to see, not the the AT you want to avoid. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1092
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 07:41:34 -
[199] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:And it's CCPs fault for not instituting a 300 page explanation of the rules that locks every possible avenue down. No, that's the opposite of what I said. |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
170
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 07:50:13 -
[200] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Captain Thunk wrote:And it's CCPs fault for not instituting a 300 page explanation of the rules that locks every possible avenue down. No, that's the opposite of what I said.
No offence, but you've also said that you Accept PL, Waffles and Horde are not actually colluding in any shape or form here in this thread, but on your alt in the DHB thread you did make that claim and compared what PL does to what Hydra does.
It's not CCPs job to chase after one alliance spread across several parts because they consistently ruin the tournament. How about Hydra just mans up for once and takes a little responsibility for its actions rather than making "Alliance Tournament" the gig at CCP no-one wants to be saddled with.
edit: I forgot, much like your alliance, what you say comes in several packages.
Bad Bobby wrote: It really doesn't matter if HYDRA is guilty of what you claim or not, the rules still need to be improved.
No arguments there, PL and others have said this for quite a while now. |
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Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
170
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 07:52:35 -
[201] - Quote
Unrelated Question: If CCP deletes one of your posts, do 2 more appear in its place? |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1092
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 07:57:37 -
[202] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:It's not CCPs job to chase after one alliance spread across several parts because they consistently ruin the tournament. Which is why it's daft to have the rules set up so that it becomes their job by default.
That's why I say having rules that simply work and don't require a huge amount of effort to police will benefit CCP, benefit the AT and prevent all this totally unwarranted drama from exploding every time someone doesn't like the AT result. |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
170
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 09:43:04 -
[203] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote: What I say on Joe when it's all fun and games and nobody is taking anything seriously is one thing. But once a whole host of monkeys start flinging their faeces in my direction, spreading lies and propaganda and making a fairly concerted effort to have me and all my friends banned then a more serious and considered response is justified.
I'm sure you can understand the distinction.
Yeah, I can understand that and it's fine.
We'll just pencil it in as another troll that backfired.
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1092
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 09:46:03 -
[204] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:Bad Bobby wrote: What I say on Joe when it's all fun and games and nobody is taking anything seriously is one thing. But once a whole host of monkeys start flinging their faeces in my direction, spreading lies and propaganda and making a fairly concerted effort to have me and all my friends banned then a more serious and considered response is justified.
I'm sure you can understand the distinction.
Yeah, I can understand that and it's fine. We'll just pencil it in as another troll that backfired. And this time, you'd even be right.
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Mr Rive
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
109
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 10:05:33 -
[205] - Quote
Your whole argument revolves around 'but honestly we didnt KNOW CCP would get upset that we fixed their entire tournament with outbreak! Our cheating wasnt technically against the rules, why are you holding it against us it's not fair we just want to play the game you guys. You guys?' :Cartman:
Nobody is that dense. Give it up. You goofed, now you're scared youre gonna get banned for real. Nothing you will say now will change the outcome of the verdict, and you're just making it worse trying to absolve yourself of any guilt.
Why is it so difficult to say okay we ****** up, it will never happen again, we will try and profit from the tournament through honest means in the future? |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1092
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 10:28:24 -
[206] - Quote
Mr Rive wrote:Your whole argument revolves around 'but honestly we didnt KNOW CCP would get upset that we fixed their entire tournament with outbreak! Our cheating wasnt technically against the rules, why are you holding it against us it's not fair we just want to play the game you guys. You guys?' :Cartman:
Nobody is that dense. Give it up. You goofed, now you're scared youre gonna get banned for real. Nothing you will say now will change the outcome of the verdict, and you're just making it worse trying to absolve yourself of any guilt.
Why is it so difficult to say okay we ****** up, it will never happen again, we will try and profit from the tournament through honest means in the future? Rive, I don't expect you to read everything I've posted.
But please, don't pretend that it can all be summed up with a few sentences that point in the total opposite direction to everything I stand for in the game.
If the final of ATIX had gone the way we had planned, which it absolutely did not, none of this would have happened. Unfortunately we were nowhere near as good at fixing AT matches as we thought we were and the whole thing turned in to the most embarrassing farce.
It wasn't against the rules, be it technically or otherwise. Put it in italics or bold if you want. But it certainly screwed up a whole lot of things and I'm personally very sorry that it went that way.
I'm not scared that I'll be banned btw. Because even if Kadesh fixed every match in the AT while simultaneously posting **** sandwiches to every CCP staffer it would never come back on me.
We certainly ****** up in ATIX, but to say it will never happen again is not within my power.
I will not be planning to profit from the AT, or anything else, by purely honest means because that's just not the game I play. But I have never and will never break AT rules. |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
170
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 10:30:15 -
[207] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote: If the final of ATIX had gone the way we had planned, which it absolutely did not, none of this would have happened. Unfortunately we were nowhere near as good at fixing AT matches as we thought we were and the whole thing turned in to the most embarrassing farce.
Seems practice isn't making perfect.
Are we meant to be looking forward to the day Hydra finally perfects their AT match fixing technique?
|
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
170
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 10:31:23 -
[208] - Quote
I'm being harsh, sorry for that.
Hydra would have gotten away with fixing matches this year if DHB Wildcat hadn't blabbed. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1092
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 10:35:53 -
[209] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:Are we meant to be looking forward to the day Hydra finally perfects their AT match fixing technique?
I'm not sure that would be in your own interests.
At the moment our problems seem to be more HR related anyway.
|
Mr Rive
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
111
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 10:40:15 -
[210] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Mr Rive wrote:Your whole argument revolves around 'but honestly we didnt KNOW CCP would get upset that we fixed their entire tournament with outbreak! Our cheating wasnt technically against the rules, why are you holding it against us it's not fair we just want to play the game you guys. You guys?' :Cartman:
Nobody is that dense. Give it up. You goofed, now you're scared youre gonna get banned for real. Nothing you will say now will change the outcome of the verdict, and you're just making it worse trying to absolve yourself of any guilt.
Why is it so difficult to say okay we ****** up, it will never happen again, we will try and profit from the tournament through honest means in the future? If the final of ATIX had gone the way we had planned, which it absolutely did not, none of this would have happened. Unfortunately we were nowhere near as good at fixing AT matches as we thought we were and the whole thing turned in to the most embarrassing farce. We certainly ****** up in ATIX, but to say it will never happen again is not within my power.
And now we come to it. 'We fixed matches, we're not as good at it as we thought. We thought we had gotten better at it, but we ****** up again, I regret that we ****** up, it was a real shame, not that we fixed the matches, but that we ****** up'
Do you really think continuing on this line is going to gain you ANY support?
As I said a couple of pages ago, the best thing for you to do now is admit you screwed up again, and try and salvage as much from this as you can, so kadesh can try and find a way to fix it again next year.
You really can't win this one, no matter how hard you try to spin it. |
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Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
170
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 10:44:23 -
[211] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Captain Thunk wrote:Are we meant to be looking forward to the day Hydra finally perfects their AT match fixing technique?
I'm not sure that would be in your own interests. At the moment our problems seem to be more HR related anyway.
If only Hydra just did what the other 62 teams manage to do year in, year out, I think you'd find all your problems disappearing - yet again, you think it isn't your fault. It really is a problem entirely of your own creation.
I don't recall any scandals involving other teams, it's literally just Hydra. it's a shame I seem to have failed to get you to see that.
|
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
303
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 10:53:36 -
[212] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Mr Rive wrote:Your whole argument revolves around 'but honestly we didnt KNOW CCP would get upset that we fixed their entire tournament with outbreak! Our cheating wasnt technically against the rules, why are you holding it against us it's not fair we just want to play the game you guys. You guys?' :Cartman:
Nobody is that dense. Give it up. You goofed, now you're scared youre gonna get banned for real. Nothing you will say now will change the outcome of the verdict, and you're just making it worse trying to absolve yourself of any guilt.
Why is it so difficult to say okay we ****** up, it will never happen again, we will try and profit from the tournament through honest means in the future? Rive, I don't expect you to read everything I've posted. But please, don't pretend that it can all be summed up with a few sentences that point in the total opposite direction to everything I stand for in the game. If the final of ATIX had gone the way we had planned, which it absolutely did not, none of this would have happened. Unfortunately we were nowhere near as good at fixing AT matches as we thought we were and the whole thing turned in to the most embarrassing farce. It wasn't against the rules, be it technically or otherwise. Put it in italics or bold if you want. But it certainly screwed up a whole lot of things and I'm personally very sorry that it went that way. I'm not scared that I'll be banned btw. Because even if Kadesh fixed every match in the AT while simultaneously posting **** sandwiches to every CCP staffer it would never come back on me. We certainly ****** up in ATIX, but to say it will never happen again is not within my power. I will not be planning to profit from the AT, or anything else, by purely honest means because that's just not the game I play. But I have never and will never break AT rules.
LOL, by ATXX you might be good enough so it all looks legit is what you are saying..... |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1094
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 10:57:32 -
[213] - Quote
Mr Rive wrote:Do you really think continuing on this line is going to gain you ANY support? You of all people are in no place to lecture me on effective PR.
Mr Rive wrote:You really can't win this one, no matter how hard you try to spin it. I'm sorry Rive, you seem to have forgotten that we did win this one.
|
Mr Rive
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
113
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 11:00:55 -
[214] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Mr Rive wrote:Do you really think continuing on this line is going to gain you ANY support? You of all people are in no place to lecture me on effective PR. Mr Rive wrote:You really can't win this one, no matter how hard you try to spin it. I'm sorry Rive, you seem to have forgotten that we did win this one.
First off, whose 'we'? I thought warlords and CAMEL were the finalists, not hydra. Didnt hydra get banned for fixing matches like you just said they did?
Second, you 'won' AT IX too, and that turned out great for you in the long run, didnt it? |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
173
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 11:03:37 -
[215] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Mr Rive wrote:Do you really think continuing on this line is going to gain you ANY support? You of all people are in no place to lecture me on effective PR. Mr Rive wrote:You really can't win this one, no matter how hard you try to spin it. I'm sorry Rive, you seem to have forgotten that we did win this one.
No man, you've lost.
You literally said that Hydra's fixed matches but didn't do it well enough while simultaneously saying wildcat is a liar with his logs and you haven't fixed matches despite his reputation that he's built over many years. If you still think he's trolling, then I for one would love to hear CCPs reaction when they find out their time and resources are being wasted.
You have to admit, it really does look quite bad for Hydra and yes, you've defended as best you can with many long posts I'm afraid I didn't have time to read, but you've had so little to work with. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1094
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 11:08:15 -
[216] - Quote
Mr Rive wrote:First off, whose 'we'? I thought warlords and CAMEL were the finalists, not hydra. Make up your mind Rive, are we all the same group or not?
Mr Rive wrote:Didnt hydra get banned for fixing matches like you just said they did? No. HYDRA never got banned from anything for fixing matches.
We got excluded from ATX because we entered HYDRA and Outbreak and CCP ruled them ineligible to compete in that tournament. The rules and CCP's philosophy had changed between ATIX and ATX. That left us on the wrong side of the line without any time to change our course.
Mr Rive wrote:Second, you 'won' AT IX too, and that turned out great for you in the long run, didnt it? It did actually, but it wasn't without it's issues, as I've already explained.
|
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
173
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 11:15:41 -
[217] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Mr Rive wrote:Didnt hydra get banned for fixing matches like you just said they did? No. HYDRA never got banned from anything for fixing matches. We got excluded from ATX because we entered HYDRA and Outbreak and CCP ruled them ineligible to compete in that tournament. The rules and CCP's philosophy had changed between ATIX and ATX. That left us on the wrong side of the line without any time to change our course. You said yourself that Hydra was victim of CCPs rulings. It's pretty clear that they intentionally found a way to exclude Hydra precisely because of the final the year before that Hydra ruined by badly staging the fight. You admitted as much yourself.
That was the warning. The, "hey, yeah, don't ever do that again moment". I'm not sure why you haven't realised that and done it again this year. Maybe CCP have to explicitly tell the Hydra teams in clear language, like the rules. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1094
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 11:19:26 -
[218] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Mr Rive wrote:You really can't win this one, no matter how hard you try to spin it. I'm sorry Rive, you seem to have forgotten that we did win this one. No man, you've lost. Citation?
Captain Thunk wrote:You literally said that Hydra's fixed matches but didn't do it well enough while simultaneously saying wildcat is a liar with his logs and you haven't fixed matches despite his reputation that he's built over many years. No.
I said we fixed matches when it was legal to do so.
I said we stopped fixing matches when it ceased to be legal to do so. CCP made it pretty clear on this point so we weren't really left in any doubt.
I haven't said Wildcat is a liar at all. I've made it quite clear that I don't know the truth of the matter. Just reading his posts, I feel he was just throwing a hissy fit. Even if it turns out to be all lies, I think he has extenuating circumstances that would prevent me from calling him a plain liar.
Captain Thunk wrote:If you still think he's trolling, then I for one would love to hear CCPs reaction when they find out their time and resources are being wasted. I don't think he's trolling now, because I've had time to investigate it all further. But that was certainly my first instinct having read his post. Now I think he's just upset and behaving irrationally.
But yeah, I doubt CCP is going to be happy with this whole situation no matter how their investigation ends.
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1094
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 11:24:40 -
[219] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:You have to admit, it really does look quite bad for Hydra No. If CCP comes back with a verdict against us, then it might look bad for HYDRA. In the meantime, this is just a bunch of people shooting the **** about AT drama.
Captain Thunk wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Mr Rive wrote:Didnt hydra get banned for fixing matches like you just said they did? No. HYDRA never got banned from anything for fixing matches. We got excluded from ATX because we entered HYDRA and Outbreak and CCP ruled them ineligible to compete in that tournament. The rules and CCP's philosophy had changed between ATIX and ATX. That left us on the wrong side of the line without any time to change our course. You said yourself that Hydra was victim of CCPs rulings. It's pretty clear that they intentionally found a way to exclude Hydra precisely because of the final the year before that Hydra ruined by badly staging the fight. You admitted as much yourself. I think they changed the rules and their philosophy for that reason.
I think they excluded one of my teams and your Waffle bros due to that rule change.
I think they excluded my other team (and not your PL bros) as vengeance for the badly staged final in ATIX.
I made that all pretty clear in my previous post that you are referencing.
Captain Thunk wrote:That was the warning. The, "hey, yeah, don't ever do that again moment". I'm not sure why you haven't realised that and done it again this year. Maybe CCP have to explicitly tell the Hydra teams in clear language, like the rules. I'm sorry but that is all predicated on the idea that we actually broke the rules this year. Which is something you've confirmed is unknown to both of us.
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Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
173
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 11:26:20 -
[220] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Captain Thunk wrote:No man, you've lost. Citation?
Scroll up, it's the bit where you basically say "We f****d up fixing matches, sorry you guys noticed, it wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for the rules getting in the way - CCP need to fix that" |
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Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
173
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 11:32:38 -
[221] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote: I'm sorry but that is all predicated on the idea that we actually broke the rules this year. Which is something you've confirmed is unknown to both of us.
Listening to your sketchy defence and DHB Wildcats post, I can't help but feel it's looking like this did all happen.
Basically you're down to saying that Wildcat must have had a mental breakdown because that's literally the only thing that can plausibly explain the events of the last week. That's a desperate argument.
I would be extremely surprised if other AT members from one of Hydra's heads haven't seen whats coming and confessed what they know to save themselves. They all know it's only going to take a few out of a pool of what 30? 40? and they aren't going to want to be the ones that end up carrying the can. Truth always outs as you've been eloquently demonstrating during the course of this thread.
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1094
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 11:33:45 -
[222] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Captain Thunk wrote:No man, you've lost. Citation? Scroll up, it's the bit where you basically say "We f****d up fixing matches, sorry you guys noticed, it wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for the rules getting in the way - CCP need to fix that" I didn't say that, basically or otherwise.
I think I've been pretty clear on this, so if you aren't understanding me after all this posting then there isn't much more I can do for you.
Either way, I don't see how the statements of a HYDRA member that wasn't involved in this AT in any capacity other than as a spectator would make any difference to Warlords or Camel winning or losing the AT.
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Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
173
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 11:35:22 -
[223] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:
Either way, I don't see how the statements of a HYDRA member that wasn't involved in this AT in any capacity other than as a spectator would make any difference to Warlords or Camel winning or losing the AT.
So you're now backpeddling and saying you have no clue as you're not involved in any capacity. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1094
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 11:38:06 -
[224] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:Bad Bobby wrote: I'm sorry but that is all predicated on the idea that we actually broke the rules this year. Which is something you've confirmed is unknown to both of us.
Listening to your sketchy defence and DHB Wildcats post, I can't help but feel it's looking like this did all happen. Basically you're down to saying that Wildcat must have had a mental breakdown because that's literally the only thing that can plausibly explain the events of the last week. That's a desperate argument. I would be extremely surprised if other AT members from one of Hydra's heads haven't seen whats coming and confessed what they know to save themselves. They all know it's only going to take a few out of a pool of what 30? 40? and they aren't going to want to be the ones that end up carrying the can. Truth always outs as you've been eloquently demonstrating during the course of this thread. No.
Throughout this discussion you have made every effort to misinterpret and distort my statements to suit your own agenda.
All I have to do is keep posting the truth and being a comparatively reasonable participant in this debate to win it. You're doing all my work for me. |
Hoodie Mafia
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
49
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 11:42:05 -
[225] - Quote
Wow 12 pages, keep on going gents
I wonder how many extra pages we can make it to once the bans are official |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1094
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 11:42:49 -
[226] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Either way, I don't see how the statements of a HYDRA member that wasn't involved in this AT in any capacity other than as a spectator would make any difference to Warlords or Camel winning or losing the AT.
So you're now backpeddling and saying you have no clue as you're not involved in any capacity. No, I've been saying that since page 4 of this thread.
That's not backpeddling, that's simply stating the simple truth over and over again.
The reason why I'm bringing my lack of relevance up, is that you seemed to think that things that I said somehow constituted an AT loss for Camel and Warlords. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1095
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 11:48:49 -
[227] - Quote
Hoodie Mafia wrote:Wow 12 pages, keep on going gents
I wonder how many extra pages we can make it to once the bans are official I think there will be far more drama if the reverse occurs. |
Hoodie Mafia
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
49
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 11:54:45 -
[228] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Hoodie Mafia wrote:Wow 12 pages, keep on going gents
I wonder how many extra pages we can make it to once the bans are official I think there will be far more drama if the reverse occurs.
Agreed, as it marks the beginning of the end if that ends up happening |
Mr Rive
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
113
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 12:09:36 -
[229] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Captain Thunk wrote:Bad Bobby wrote: I'm sorry but that is all predicated on the idea that we actually broke the rules this year. Which is something you've confirmed is unknown to both of us.
Listening to your sketchy defence and DHB Wildcats post, I can't help but feel it's looking like this did all happen. Basically you're down to saying that Wildcat must have had a mental breakdown because that's literally the only thing that can plausibly explain the events of the last week. That's a desperate argument. I would be extremely surprised if other AT members from one of Hydra's heads haven't seen whats coming and confessed what they know to save themselves. They all know it's only going to take a few out of a pool of what 30? 40? and they aren't going to want to be the ones that end up carrying the can. Truth always outs as you've been eloquently demonstrating during the course of this thread. No. Throughout this discussion you have made every effort to misinterpret and distort my statements to suit your own agenda. All I have to do is keep posting the truth and being a comparatively reasonable participant in this debate to win it. You're doing all my work for me.
This isnt a debate. This is the question of whether hydra cheated this year. Debates dont have yes or no answers. There's just a best and a worse way of doing somehting.
Did hydra cheat? Yes? No?
Everything that you have said so far pushes the perception to 'yes'. Just because you don't call it cheating, doesnt mean it isnt. It just means you're arguing semantics, which are pointless to the question. |
Mr Rive
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
113
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 12:11:29 -
[230] - Quote
Hoodie Mafia wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Hoodie Mafia wrote:Wow 12 pages, keep on going gents
I wonder how many extra pages we can make it to once the bans are official I think there will be far more drama if the reverse occurs. Agreed, as it marks the beginning of the end if that ends up happening
Not really, the only way we end up with this being the end is if CCP decide not to change the rules for next year, and make sure they incorporate feedback to make that happen.
The question of whether there is proof of hydra's cheating is really not that important. I just enjoy seeing bad bobby **** the pooch and take pictures. |
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1095
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 12:49:46 -
[231] - Quote
Mr Rive wrote:This isnt a debate. It looks like one, at least when it's not a pissing contest.
Mr Rive wrote:This is the question of whether hydra cheated this year. It's a lot more than that. At least from my perspective. I don't even know why we would even concern ourselves with that question, since CCP's verdict is what matters.
Mr Rive wrote:Debates dont have yes or no answers. Debates don't generally have answers, be they yes, no or otherwise.
Mr Rive wrote:Did hydra cheat? Yes? No?
Everything that you have said so far pushes the perception to 'yes'. It wasn't possible for me to push your perception to "yes" because that's where it started.
You can't speak for the perceptions of others, because you don't know or understand them. |
Mr Rive
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
113
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 17:23:57 -
[232] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote: So there is no history of cheating in HYDRA. There is however a history of playing to the limit of the rules, in order to win, and occasionally being the victim of unfortunate CCP decisions. A history that we share with PL, our chief detractor.
It's funny, its almost convenient that you forgot you posted that several pages back, almost as if to shift the blame towards us.
Bad Bobby wrote:It isn't me that keeps bringing up the link between PL and Waffles.
I personally don't think that the PL/Waffles link (or the link with Horde) is in any way relevant.
oh wait never mind, it seems your tactic backfired.
Bad Bobby wrote: If the final of ATIX had gone the way we had planned, which it absolutely did not, none of this would have happened. Unfortunately we were nowhere near as good at fixing AT matches as we thought we were and the whole thing turned in to the most embarrassing farce.
We certainly ****** up in ATIX, but to say it will never happen again is not within my power.
"we fixed matches, ccp got pissed and banned us for doing something so incomprehensively wrong in a competative sport, putting it in to the rules would be stupid as everyone knows its wrong. We hoped we had gotten better at it, but clearly CCP is pissed again because we're doing the same thing this year, it just depends to what extent"
Bad Bobby wrote:
You and I appear to disagree as to whether there is evidence of an offense being committed under the current AT ruleset.
Well ain't that a doozey, you admit to ******* up in atIX, you say you we'rent technically breaking any rules, but you and I both know what you did was wrong. As you say 'bad PR', I rather think you just annoyed the hell out of CCP, and no amount of PR would have fixed it. You dont know how their brains work, it's probably why they keep trying to recruit certain PL members, and not certain HYDRA members~
So what's happened is, in your own words, this is either a troll, or you tried to do exactly the same thing as you did in ATIX and it backfired again, because you weren't as good at it as you thought.
You are not very good at petty politics. You might be good at scamming noobs, but youre entering a whole different ball game here and all you are doing is making CCP more mad with your inane evasions and backpedalling.
Just go back to scamming noobs out of titans m8. You're making it worse. |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
173
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 21:56:14 -
[233] - Quote
As you said Bad Bobby, short of DHB Wildcat having somekind of meltdown, his allegations are certainly true.
So it's a question of probability. Hydra, very probably cheated and fixed matches, just like it has a history of doing.
There just aren't many alternatives that fit the situation. You tried the trolling angle but have conceded that this hasn't all been a troll. There isn't much left, it boils down to either Insanity on Wildcats part or it's true. Wildcat is a veteran player and I've never heard anyone call him insane.
Judging by how you've moved your stance in the last few days I think you're beginning to realise where exactly this is all going.
So, with that in mind, how do you think the 30-40 boys on the teams are holding out? Do you think they're sticking to the story, praying plausible deniability will carry them through? Do you think any of them have folded under the pressure as they realise the situation is looking bleak and it's time to save themselves? Do you think the onus is on them to go down with the ship because honoure, even though many pilots weren't part of the conspiracy and only found out in the final stages like Wildcat? Do you think future Hydra teams are going to put special emphasis on the ability to keep quiet over talented flying? Hypothetically, if some Hydra pilots have spoken freely with CCP adding to the weight of evidence, would you despise their lack of loyalty, would you feel betrayed? Do you have any opinions on why it is it's only Hydra that runs into trouble? PL has won the AT numerous times yet I do not recall any scandal associated with any of the wins. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1095
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 23:10:07 -
[234] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:As you said Bad Bobby, short of DHB Wildcat having somekind of meltdown, his allegations are certainly true. I don't think I said that. My opinion right now is that his allegations of match fixing are false and that CCP has sufficient proof to confirm that.
Captain Thunk wrote:So it's a question of probability. Hydra, very probably cheated and fixed matches, just like it has a history of doing. It's not a question of probability, because there is no random number god at play here. There are facts, there is evidence and there is CCP's decision on how to proceed. The facts and evidence don't support your claims of match fixing and the only unknown is CCP.
Captain Thunk wrote:There just aren't many alternatives that fit the situation. Well, there is the obvious one, that DHB got angry, posted stuff, got abuse back, got even angrier and petitioned.
That's certainly a lot more plausible than your alternative, in my opinion.
Captain Thunk wrote:Judging by how you've moved your stance in the last few days I think you're beginning to realise where exactly this is all going. I can't claim to know where we will be in a week or so. I don't have your omniscience.
But that's not really my role in all this, my chief concern is that we are in the best possible position we can achieve for the next AT and the AT after that.
Captain Thunk wrote:So, with that in mind, how do you think the 30-40 boys on the teams are holding out? I think they're fine, particularly since they know a lot more about this whole situation than you do.
The rest of your post is predicated on what I believe to be your hubris. So I don't think I really need to answer it.
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1095
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 23:14:48 -
[235] - Quote
Overall I think I've achieved what I set out to in this thread and in the absence of a CCP verdict, I can declare victory and take my rest for now.
I'd like to thank the PL posters for being so co-operative. I didn't expect to get such an easy ride. |
Mr Rive
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
115
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 00:15:49 -
[236] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Overall I think I've achieved what I set out to in this thread and in the absence of a CCP verdict, I can declare victory and take my rest for now.
I'd like to thank the PL posters for being so co-operative. I didn't expect to get such an easy ride.
hahaha okay. Have fun. You're a muppet, but thanks for all the screenshots. |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
173
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 00:30:17 -
[237] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Overall I think I've achieved what I set out to in this thread and in the absence of a CCP verdict, I can declare victory and take my rest for now.
I'd like to thank the PL posters for being so co-operative. I didn't expect to get such an easy ride.
I was wondering when Hydra was going to order you to stop posting.
Your defence has led to more questions and is flimsy at best, because it rests entirely on DHB Wildcat having a mental breakdown, which according to people who know him doesn't sound like him at all. Not only that, it has to manifest itself in this convoluted bizarre situation where he destroys himself while trying to destroy others. It's desperate and by making you constantly have to repeat it, I think you're realising how incredibly flimsy this defence actually is which is why you want to make your exit. In all honesty, I don't blame you. It seems the rest of Hydra had the foresight to see where this would go and chose not to post at all.
The rest of the Hydra defence is trying to stare CCP down with the tagline "YOU CAN'T PROVE S**T!", good luck with that.
Either way, a sincere thanks to DHB Wildcat, his brave actions will lead to the rules changes the AT badly needs. It's a shame that it wasn't till the end, when he finally won Gold, that he realised it means nothing if you don't feel you actually won it.
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Ion Udan
Escape Velocity
106
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 00:52:36 -
[238] - Quote
I'm thoroughly enjoying reading this thread but I have a burning question.
Bad Bobby, all your references to DHB and his posts relate to him being "angry" and off he goes telling lies.
You said "Well, there is the obvious one, that DHB got angry, posted stuff, got abuse back, got even angrier and petitioned."
If Hydra/Warlords/Camel all operated within this years AT as legitimate teams, what did DHB have to be angry at? His team won, he got ships, prizes and ISK.
I don't know many people who get angry at nothing, or even, angry at winning. I do know alot of people who get angry at being cheated and deceived. Especially by people they thought were trustworthy and having that broken.
Reading through this thread even you admit that HYDRA/Warlords/Camel operate right at the very edge of the rules, and bending them almost to the point of breaking to achieve their end result. Winning and ISK. And you admit yourself this will continue to occur until the rules are written in a way that no one can spin them in a fashion that could be misinterpreted.
I'll be very interested to see how this plays out.
So, glorious QEX brother steals potatoes from hisec.
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1095
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 04:46:55 -
[239] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:I was wondering when Hydra was going to order you to stop posting. I don't think you understand HYDRA leadership.
There are certainly some posts on this subject that I could have done without, but not in this thread. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1095
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 04:55:07 -
[240] - Quote
Ion Udan wrote:what did DHB have to be angry at? I'm not going to repeat the mud slinging that started this debacle, if you want the answer to your question there are two locked threads where you will get a 1st person perspective on it, regrettable though they may be.
Ion Udan wrote:And you admit yourself this will continue to occur until the rules are written in a way that no one can spin them in a fashion that could be misinterpreted. No, actually. My recommendation wasn't that the rules get turned in to something that specifically forbids every possible transgression, but that the rules and structure are altered so that it isn't needed. If nobody has a illegitimate incentive to throw a match, then the very question of match throwing can be put to bed and CCP will not have to worry about these drama bombs.
Ion Udan wrote:I'll be very interested to see how this plays out. Me too. I can't think of anything relevant that hasn't been covered now, so all that remains is to wait for the CCP verdict. Then I'm sure the drama will continue.
|
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Ion Udan
Escape Velocity
106
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 05:41:04 -
[241] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Ion Udan wrote:what did DHB have to be angry at? I'm not going to repeat the mud slinging that started this debacle, if you want the answer to your question there are two locked threads where you will get a 1st person perspective on it, regrettable though they may be.
I've read those two locked threads, my question about what DHB had to be angry at relates specifically to two points:
As DHB says; He was angry that he was deceived and cheated by his own team on how AT would play out.
or as Kadesh says He was angry because his doctrines weren't followed and his input wasn't received well from leadership and was generally disruptive.
Now we're all pretty intelligent people around here. If I were in DHB shoes, and lets say I was angry because of point 2. If i'd just won AT and received all my goodies. I wouldn't then turn around and destroy it all for "reasons". I'd think to myself, well my doctrines weren't followed but hey "WE JUST WON AT!!! How awesome is that!" What an achievement.
It seems rather obvious out of the two, which is most likely to have occurred.
In regards to your reply about the rules of AT "If nobody had an illegitimate incentive to throw a match, then the very question of match throwing can be put to bed"
That is a very subjective statement, what drives player A may not drive player B. The whole purpose of a tournament is to have a winner. If player A is focussed on ISK, and the AT has a massive ISK reward, then he has motivation. However if player B is not motivated by ISK, but eHonor and winning, then he has motivation no what the "reward" is. Just winning is his motivation.
So with that in mind, and your statement applied, should we not even have a tournament?
So, glorious QEX brother steals potatoes from hisec.
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1095
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 07:04:23 -
[242] - Quote
I wish I could offer you some insight in to DHB's decisions on this, but they are as much of a mystery to me as they are to you.
Ion Udan wrote:In regards to your reply about the rules of AT "If nobody had an illegitimate incentive to throw a match, then the very question of match throwing can be put to bed"
That is a very subjective statement, what drives player A may not drive player B. The whole purpose of a tournament is to have a winner. If player A is focussed on ISK, and the AT has a massive ISK reward, then he has motivation. However if player B is not motivated by ISK, but eHonor and winning, then he has motivation no what the "reward" is. Just winning is his motivation. It doesn't matter if the person is driven by isk, e-honor or the desire to be the best of the best.
If throwing matches doesn't help them win, then they can gain no riches, e-honor or other accolades from doing it.
Double elimination tournaments allow a team to lose a match/series and still continue to compete. They can throw matches and still win.
Single elimination tournaments do not have the same dynamic. If you lose a match/series then you are out and cannot then go on to benefit from your loss later in that tournament.
You can certainly throw one match in a series, in order to fake out your opponents or gain some information advantage, but I don't think that's the kind of match throw that anyone wants to prevent.
You can certainly throw matches in order to win big on eve-bet, but that's outside of the scope of the tournament rules and probably not as big a deal either.
So my point is that tournament structure has a massive effect on what kind of metagaming is viable. Choosing double elimination makes the kind of match fixing that Warlords and Camel are accused of viable and also offers a significant incentive to field two teams in the tournament, since those two teams facing eachother before the finals isn't a problem.
Choosing double elimination and making these metagaming options viable also means that when accusations start flying around CCP have to spend time investigating it and suffer the PR problems associated with it. If that metagaming is not viable then they don't have that unwarranted extra workload and unwanted controversy to deal with. |
Hoodie Mafia
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
49
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 07:11:34 -
[243] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:I wish I could offer you some insight in to DHB's decisions on this, but they are as much of a mystery to me as they are to you. Ion Udan wrote:In regards to your reply about the rules of AT "If nobody had an illegitimate incentive to throw a match, then the very question of match throwing can be put to bed"
That is a very subjective statement, what drives player A may not drive player B. The whole purpose of a tournament is to have a winner. If player A is focussed on ISK, and the AT has a massive ISK reward, then he has motivation. However if player B is not motivated by ISK, but eHonor and winning, then he has motivation no what the "reward" is. Just winning is his motivation. It doesn't matter if the person is driven by isk, e-honor or the desire to be the best of the best. If throwing matches doesn't help them win, then they can gain no riches, e-honor or other accolades from doing it. Double elimination tournaments allow a team to lose a match/series and still continue to compete. They can throw matches and still win. Single elimination tournaments do not have the same dynamic. If you lose a match/series then you are out and cannot then go on to benefit from your loss later in that tournament. You can certainly throw one match in a series, in order to fake out your opponents or gain some information advantage, but I don't think that's the kind of match throw that anyone wants to prevent. You can certainly throw matches in order to win big on eve-bet, but that's outside of the scope of the tournament rules and probably not as big a deal either. So my point is that tournament structure has a massive effect on what kind of metagaming is viable. Choosing double elimination makes the kind of match fixing that Warlords and Camel are accused of viable and also offers a significant incentive to field two teams in the tournament, since those two teams facing eachother before the finals isn't a problem. Choosing double elimination and making these metagaming options viable also means that when accusations start flying around CCP have to spend time investigating it and suffer the PR problems associated with it. If that metagaming is not viable then they don't have that unwarranted extra workload and unwanted controversy to deal with.
In short;
CCP should not have picked double elimination, this forced Hydra/Camel to do match fixing Damn you CCP...
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1095
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 07:17:30 -
[244] - Quote
Hoodie Mafia wrote:In short;
CCP should not have picked double elimination, this forced Hydra/Camel to do match fixing Damn you CCP... It allows anyone to be rewarded by match fixing.
And it allows anyone to make accusations of match fixing and force CCP to deal with the fallout.
It doesn't matter if any match fixing actually occurs, the damage and negative dynamic still remains.
I am not saying that single elimination is a magic bullet, but I do feel that it has a better balance of upsides and downsides when compared to double elimination. It's certainly still possible to benefit from match fixing, but you have to fix other people's matches, not your own and that is a much harder prospect. |
Lovey Dovey
Great Game Mechanic GoonSwarm
7
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 07:37:27 -
[245] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:We were punished for that through the exclusion from ATX, which hit both of our teams, while CCP only decided to exclude one of yours. That's because they had a reason to be vengeful against HYDRA and no reason to be so against PL.
That's not the reason at all, and thinking it is supports the notion that you suffer from a victim complex. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1095
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 07:47:50 -
[246] - Quote
Lovey Dovey wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:We were punished for that through the exclusion from ATX, which hit both of our teams, while CCP only decided to exclude one of yours. That's because they had a reason to be vengeful against HYDRA and no reason to be so against PL. That's not the reason at all, and thinking it is supports the notion that you suffer from a victim complex. I do love internet psychologists. Please tell me more.
Titans 4U convinced most of the internet psychologists of EVE that I'm a psychopath, so I'm interested to see how you think those two disorders interplay. |
Lovey Dovey
Great Game Mechanic GoonSwarm
7
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 08:11:00 -
[247] - Quote
Please provide evidence that CCP barring Hydra/Outbreak for violating rules was actually because they wanted vengeance for the match fixing in ATIX as you claimed.
I'll wait. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1095
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 08:23:30 -
[248] - Quote
Lovey Dovey wrote:Please provide evidence that CCP barring Hydra/Outbreak for violating rules was actually because they wanted vengeance for the match fixing in ATIX as you claimed.
I'll wait. Sure, I'll swap it for evidence that your opinion matters. |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
173
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 08:39:36 -
[249] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Lovey Dovey wrote:Please provide evidence that CCP barring Hydra/Outbreak for violating rules was actually because they wanted vengeance for the match fixing in ATIX as you claimed.
I'll wait. Sure, I'll swap it for evidence that your opinion matters.
That's a bit mean, none of us are important enough to have our opinions really matter.
He does have a point though about the defensive complex, you do seem to feel that CCP has victimised Hyrda when it's actually CCP who has to deal with the extra workload and problems that having Hydra in creates.
That or you just play the victim card in this thread because there's little else to use as a defence. Let's face it Hydra wiggles the rules in absolutely everything for the best possible advantage, so it is something they'd do isn't it? |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1095
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 08:55:28 -
[250] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Lovey Dovey wrote:Please provide evidence that CCP barring Hydra/Outbreak for violating rules was actually because they wanted vengeance for the match fixing in ATIX as you claimed.
I'll wait. Sure, I'll swap it for evidence that your opinion matters. That's a bit mean, none of us are important enough to have our opinions really matter. That doesn't come across in his posting though, does it?
Captain Thunk wrote:He does have a point though about the defensive complex, you do seem to feel that CCP has victimised Hyrda when it's actually CCP who has to deal with the extra workload and problems that having Hydra in creates. Which I covered in the very next sentence of the post Lovey Dovey is quoting, as well as in other posts.
Bad Bobby wrote:We were punished for that through the exclusion from ATX, which hit both of our teams, while CCP only decided to exclude one of yours. That's because they had a reason to be vengeful against HYDRA and no reason to be so against PL. We understand that we ruined the ATIX final, we understand that we caused CCP a massive embarrassment and lost them money. We are sorry for that and have no intention of repeating that performance. This is what happens when you deliberately miss-interpret and distort my posts in order to support your own agenda.
Since all you guys appear to have left in your bag of tricks is word games, I'm not inclined to worry too much. |
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Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
173
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 09:08:32 -
[251] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:We were punished for that through the exclusion from ATX, which hit both of our teams, while CCP only decided to exclude one of yours. That's because they had a reason to be vengeful against HYDRA and no reason to be so against PL. We understand that we ruined the ATIX final, we understand that we caused CCP a massive embarrassment and lost them money. We are sorry for that and have no intention of repeating that performance.
But you did repeat it.
This right now, is a repetition.
CCP has been embarrassed, the legitimacy of the AT has been called into question and the prizes have been moved into stasis while an investigation is being held. This didn't happen in ATIX, CCP waited a year before doing anything
PL didn't get punished because it did nothing wrong (traditional definition, not Hydra definition). Crying because PL didn't take the fall what Hydra did isn't likely to get you much sympathy
I don't think CCP will be taking Hydra's 11th promise not to do it again seriously
This is what happens when you deliberately miss-interpret and distort CCPs posts for your own agenda. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1095
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 09:21:44 -
[252] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:But you did repeat it.
This right now, is a repetition. You are just repeating the same allegation as if it's fact, which it isn't.
Captain Thunk wrote:PL didn't get punished because it did nothing wrong (traditional definition, not Hydra definition). Crying because PL didn't take the fall what Hydra did isn't likely to get you much sympathy The quote being referenced is taken from a post where I'm pointing out why PL didn't get hit in the same way, because they didn't commit an offense. I've dealt with that distinction at length, including several posts saying that Waffles didn't do anything wrong.
I'm not sure why you think I want sympathy from anyone.
Do you really have nothing else but this? |
Mr Rive
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
115
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 09:24:13 -
[253] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:We were punished for that through the exclusion from ATX, which hit both of our teams, while CCP only decided to exclude one of yours. That's because they had a reason to be vengeful against HYDRA and no reason to be so against PL. We understand that we ruined the ATIX final, we understand that we caused CCP a massive embarrassment and lost them money. We are sorry for that and have no intention of repeating that performance. This is what happens when you deliberately miss-interpret and distort my posts in order to support your own agenda.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u0EL_u4nvw
seriously though. You know no one else in their right ******* mind would have tried to fix the finals of the AT because 'it wasn't technically against the rules' and think they would get away with it, not once, but several times? I mean its not like you tried to do the same exact thing and got barred from the tournament.
The reason CCP barred waffles is very simple, and something I dont think you can wrap your tiny lilttle brain around (can you see how your evasive, nonsensical, bad political PR posts have made me feel bobby?).
CCP are incredibly invested in being impartial. The reason waffles got barred, is not because they would have done anything wrong, CCP knows with certainty they wouldn't have, they just wont say it. They did it, so you couldn't try and throw in their face the fact they werent being impartial about only banning you, which is exactly the kind of hilariously bad argument youre trying to make now.
Because here's the thing, I know you understand it, youre not ********, just really dumb to continue posting as if you're 'winning'. Most groups are in the tournament to have fun, hopefully make some isk, and PLAY WITHIN THE RULES. PL has never been penialized for doing anything in a tournament that wasn't a genuine mistake, because we want to win legitemately, its half the fun of the tournament, having a set base of rules. HYDRA have never really seemed to care about that, which is fine, youre allowed not to give a **** about the rules to make isk, a lot of people do it IRL. The best part about eve though is, if you **** off the devs enough with your blatant line towing smugness, they can just change the rules of the game, and the second you cross that line, there is no forgiveness.
It doesn't matter wither CCP can find proof of hydra cheating this year, nobody cares about the tournament isk but you guys, what matters is youre never going to be able to pull these bullshit stunts again, and your desperate flailings and backpedallings so you can even try again next year are the best forum porn ive ever seen. |
RAW23
910
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 09:51:42 -
[254] - Quote
ITT: PL pilots unironically complaining about people following the letter of the law rather than its spirit.
Bookmarked for posterity.
_There are two types of EVE player: _
those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
|
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
173
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 10:06:55 -
[255] - Quote
If DHB's logs are skype logs then it's been game over since day 1, most people have assumed they were skype logs.
Skype logs are stored for 30 days by default on Skypes cloud servers and cannot be edited by users. All Wildcat has ever had to do is have a Skype call with a CCP employee and share his screen (inbuilt in Skype) and simply scroll up to the relevent part of the convo - just 1 of countless ways CCP can verify the logs.
It's no secret and I'm sure there are Hydra pilots that have complied fully with the investigation because they knew this was always a slamdunk by Wildcat.
The other 12 pages were just me enjoying myself
|
Mr Rive
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
116
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 10:08:04 -
[256] - Quote
ITs the tournament. That's what its there to do. Make a ruleset so that the best pilots come out on top. If it doesnt do that, then there is no point in there being a tournament at all.
Eve is a sandbox, the tournament is not. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1160
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 13:23:45 -
[257] - Quote
Mr Rive wrote:ITs the tournament. That's what its there to do. Make a ruleset so that the best pilots come out on top. If it doesnt do that, then there is no point in there being a tournament at all. Are you saying that the best pilots didn't come out on top this year? |
Mr Rive
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
116
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 13:31:45 -
[258] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Mr Rive wrote:ITs the tournament. That's what its there to do. Make a ruleset so that the best pilots come out on top. If it doesnt do that, then there is no point in there being a tournament at all. Are you saying that the best pilots didn't come out on top this year?
no of COURSE not, but its funny every time hydra has just ran one team, we seem to wipe the floor with you :itsamystery: |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1160
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 14:07:08 -
[259] - Quote
Mr Rive wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Mr Rive wrote:ITs the tournament. That's what its there to do. Make a ruleset so that the best pilots come out on top. If it doesnt do that, then there is no point in there being a tournament at all. Are you saying that the best pilots didn't come out on top this year? no of COURSE not, but its funny every time hydra has just ran one team, we seem to wipe the floor with you :itsamystery: It's true, we only managed to achieve 2nd place and PL took 1st on both of those occasions.
It just goes to show how important having a good team to practice with is. |
Soldarius
Naliao Inc. Test Alliance Please Ignore
1378
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 16:53:48 -
[260] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:...you could just arrange beforehand that A-team flies a comp that beats what the B-team is flying easily - A's Rock to B's Scissors. This allows you to predetermine who will win without having broken any of CCPs rules.
I think this demonstrates how absurd the situation really is.
Considering the numerous ways Hydramel could have done what they've done legitimately, but didn't, I can only conclude that the team captains just wanted to cheat. That's unless DHB made it all up. In which case they didn't cheat but yeah....comedic set of rules.
IMO this sort of situation fits the definition of collusion. If two teams pre-arrange to fly certain comps so that one is almost certain to counter the other, then they have effectively fixed the match results.
When two teams go the route of not just working together in practices by sharing wormhole logistics, POS, and comps, but also agree to share prizes, there is no longer any incentive to actually win. They have in effect become one team, a sort of reverse "B-team".
I think CCP made a mistake in allowing teams to share wormhole logistics. Its like two NFL teams sharing the same locker rooms, transportation, equipment, staff, finances, play books, MVP awards, and even the Vince Lombardi Trophy.
Should DHB Wildcat's accusations be proven, there can be only one response: forfiture of all prizes and permanent banning of all involved players. Otherwise, the Alliance Tournament will never be taken seriously as an eSport.
http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
|
|
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research Create Alliance
682
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 17:28:04 -
[261] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Mr Rive wrote:ITs the tournament. That's what its there to do. Make a ruleset so that the best pilots come out on top. If it doesnt do that, then there is no point in there being a tournament at all. Are you saying that the best pilots didn't come out on top this year?
This isn't something we could know from watching the tournament.
WTS ME 10 TE 20 BPOs & BPO Packs
WTS Collectible Large Rigged Small/Medium Ships
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W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
353
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 18:08:52 -
[262] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:If DHB's logs are skype logs then it's been game over since day 1, most people have assumed they were skype logs. Skype logs are stored for 30 days by default on Skypes cloud servers and cannot be edited by users. All Wildcat has ever had to do is have a Skype call with a CCP employee and share his screen (inbuilt in Skype) and simply scroll up to the relevent part of the convo - just 1 of countless ways CCP can verify the logs. It's no secret and I'm sure there are Hydra pilots that have complied fully with the investigation because they knew this was always a slamdunk by Wildcat. The other 12 pages were just me enjoying myself
I was going to to say "Thats not proof in any way or form, someone can make a skype account and call himself Kadesh, talk to his other account, collude with himself and then submit that as proof. Since you cant proof that it was the actual person it doesnt count"
But yeah, if he simply screenshared proof that it was indeed the leadership by virtues of showing it was him in other chat rooms then it probably would count. |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
173
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 18:51:09 -
[263] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Captain Thunk wrote:If DHB's logs are skype logs then it's been game over since day 1, most people have assumed they were skype logs. Skype logs are stored for 30 days by default on Skypes cloud servers and cannot be edited by users. All Wildcat has ever had to do is have a Skype call with a CCP employee and share his screen (inbuilt in Skype) and simply scroll up to the relevent part of the convo - just 1 of countless ways CCP can verify the logs. It's no secret and I'm sure there are Hydra pilots that have complied fully with the investigation because they knew this was always a slamdunk by Wildcat. The other 12 pages were just me enjoying myself I was going to to say "Thats not proof in any way or form, someone can make a skype account and call himself Kadesh, talk to his other account, collude with himself and then submit that as proof. Since you cant proof that it was the actual person it doesnt count" But yeah, if he simply screenshared proof that it was indeed the leadership by virtues of showing it was him in other chat rooms then it probably would count.
He can also look up the users exact skype name while screensharing which will confirm it is the real Kadesh (right click->view profile)
Also the timestamps in Skype would mean Wildcat would had to have prepared all this before the final.
I'm certain many in Hydra have realised this, which is why none of them have posted anything since the investigation began, they've realised the game was up - which indicates they all knew, even if they weren't directly told. (Bad Bobby isn't actually part of the team, he's just a well wisher)
|
Lovey Dovey
Great Game Mechanic GoonSwarm
9
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 18:59:41 -
[264] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote: Sure, I'll swap it for evidence that your opinion matters.
There's no need to be so upset at a simple request to prove a claim you made. |
Valkin Mordirc
1503
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 22:11:22 -
[265] - Quote
CCP Just announced a new Tech 3 Damage Control called "Bad Bobby III"
#DeleteTheWeak
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Mr Rive
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
116
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 01:30:23 -
[266] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:CCP Just announced a new Tech 3 Damage Control called "Bad Bobby III"
Whenever you hit hull does it shout 'STOP VICTIMIZING ME!!!'?? |
General Vachot
The Vendunari End of Life
18
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 02:17:13 -
[267] - Quote
OK so this thread has been a wonderful pantomime so far.
Its been a while though - any likely word on the result of this thing or have I missed something??
Anyone ? CCP? |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
304
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 02:29:34 -
[268] - Quote
General Vachot wrote:OK so this thread has been a wonderful pantomime so far.
Its been a while though - any likely word on the result of this thing or have I missed something??
Anyone ? CCP?
CCP Logibro just got on a plane to Twitchcon, he just got off a plane from soethign else, so i don't see any resolution anytime soon |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1160
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 03:42:00 -
[269] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Mr Rive wrote:ITs the tournament. That's what its there to do. Make a ruleset so that the best pilots come out on top. If it doesnt do that, then there is no point in there being a tournament at all. Are you saying that the best pilots didn't come out on top this year? This isn't something we could know from watching the tournament. I was only asking for a clarification of Rive's opinion. I agree that watching the tournament doesn't provide that information.
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Captain Thunk wrote:If DHB's logs are skype logs then it's been game over since day 1, most people have assumed they were skype logs. Skype logs are stored for 30 days by default on Skypes cloud servers and cannot be edited by users. All Wildcat has ever had to do is have a Skype call with a CCP employee and share his screen (inbuilt in Skype) and simply scroll up to the relevent part of the convo - just 1 of countless ways CCP can verify the logs. It's no secret and I'm sure there are Hydra pilots that have complied fully with the investigation because they knew this was always a slamdunk by Wildcat. The other 12 pages were just me enjoying myself I was going to to say "Thats not proof in any way or form, someone can make a skype account and call himself Kadesh, talk to his other account, collude with himself and then submit that as proof. Since you cant proof that it was the actual person it doesnt count" But yeah, if he simply screenshared proof that it was indeed the leadership by virtues of showing it was him in other chat rooms then it probably would count. However the presence of authenticated skype logs between Kadesh and DHB says nothing about the authenticity of the claims made in them. I could convo DHB and tell him I've just eaten his lunch, he might become upset about that, but his lunch may still be in the fridge where he left it.
But we're already several steps down the rabbit hole. We still don't know if there are any skype logs. Also there are plenty of convos between Warlords AT members that contradict the statements made in DHB's logs. This is why we don't treat hearsay as evidence. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1161
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 03:55:43 -
[270] - Quote
Lovey Dovey wrote:Bad Bobby wrote: Sure, I'll swap it for evidence that your opinion matters.
There's no need to be so upset at a simple request to prove a claim you made. That doesn't look like evidence to me. |
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Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
173
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 04:44:23 -
[271] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote: However the presence of authenticated skype logs between Kadesh and DHB says nothing about the authenticity of the claims made in them. I could convo DHB and tell him I've just eaten his lunch, he might become upset about that, but his lunch may still be in the fridge where he left it.
But we're already several steps down the rabbit hole. We still don't know if there are any skype logs. Also there are plenty of convos between Warlords AT members that contradict the statements made in DHB's logs. This is why we don't treat hearsay as evidence.
If you read the logs before they were moderated (available on other sites) then you will know that the Team Captain explicitly talked about throwing matches by arrangement between the Hydra heads.
It can be verified from DHB Wildcats client as I described, although not from Kadesh's, as he can delete single messages.
If Wildcats claims are true and CCP screenshare to witness the logs still in place then it's case closed. No room to spin with it. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1161
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 05:05:17 -
[272] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:Bad Bobby wrote: However the presence of authenticated skype logs between Kadesh and DHB says nothing about the authenticity of the claims made in them. I could convo DHB and tell him I've just eaten his lunch, he might become upset about that, but his lunch may still be in the fridge where he left it.
But we're already several steps down the rabbit hole. We still don't know if there are any skype logs. Also there are plenty of convos between Warlords AT members that contradict the statements made in DHB's logs. This is why we don't treat hearsay as evidence.
If you read the logs before they were moderated (available on other sites) then you will know that the Team Captain explicitly talked about throwing matches by arrangement between the Hydra heads. It can be verified from DHB Wildcats client as I described, although not from Kadesh's, as he can delete single messages. If Wildcats claims are true and CCP screenshare to witness the logs still in place then it's case closed. No room to spin with it. No, as I pointed out in that quote. |
Lovey Dovey
Great Game Mechanic GoonSwarm
9
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 06:19:29 -
[273] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:That doesn't look like evidence to me.
I'm sorry you feel the need to resort to misogynistic behavior to try and shut down a female playing pointing out you have a tendency to cry about "we're the victims of CCP being unfair" several times while ignoring the reality of what happened. |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
173
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 06:44:28 -
[274] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Captain Thunk wrote:Bad Bobby wrote: However the presence of authenticated skype logs between Kadesh and DHB says nothing about the authenticity of the claims made in them. I could convo DHB and tell him I've just eaten his lunch, he might become upset about that, but his lunch may still be in the fridge where he left it.
But we're already several steps down the rabbit hole. We still don't know if there are any skype logs. Also there are plenty of convos between Warlords AT members that contradict the statements made in DHB's logs. This is why we don't treat hearsay as evidence.
If you read the logs before they were moderated (available on other sites) then you will know that the Team Captain explicitly talked about throwing matches by arrangement between the Hydra heads. It can be verified from DHB Wildcats client as I described, although not from Kadesh's, as he can delete single messages. If Wildcats claims are true and CCP screenshare to witness the logs still in place then it's case closed. No room to spin with it. No, as I pointed out in that quote.
What? You think because two people who are merely participating in the AT chatting away and not aware of match fixing this would somehow counteract the Team Captain explicitly stating that the matches are fixed?
Or are you just hoping that the logs are not from Skype or similar verifiable source?
|
MissBolyai
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
146
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 14:23:02 -
[275] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:Hydra heads
golfclapping the heck outta that wit |
W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
353
|
Posted - 2015.09.28 05:05:35 -
[276] - Quote
This sure is taking forever. |
Dancul1001
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
62
|
Posted - 2015.09.28 05:20:56 -
[277] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:This sure is taking forever.
i heard logibro was at twitchcon or something maybe we will hear soon (tm) |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1193
|
Posted - 2015.09.28 12:03:02 -
[278] - Quote
As Dancul says, Logibro, the person who is handling this is a busy man.
It takes as long as it takes and it's important that it isn't rushed. |
Lovey Dovey
Great Game Mechanic GoonSwarm
9
|
Posted - 2015.09.28 16:56:16 -
[279] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:As Dancul says, Logibro, the person who is handling this is a busy man.
It takes as long as it takes and it's important that it isn't rushed.
Why did you lie to everyone? |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
1067
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 11:10:42 -
[280] - Quote
so when is CCP going to announce redistribution of AT prizes and permaban of camels of the deep pilots from all future AT? Because thats the only valid outcome of this. |
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Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
304
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 16:29:47 -
[281] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:so when is CCP going to announce redistribution of AT prizes and permaban of camels of the deep pilots from all future AT? Because thats the only valid outcome of this.
Read the last 3 pages of the day 4 summit notes. I know Falcon was there talking about the integrity of the tournament and some other interesting things, also it was stated it may takes a few weeks and that basically started this past week as Logibro has been traveling and this past week was basically his first back in Iceland since the tournament. So, I would say not this coming week, probably the week after, or maybe the week after that |
TinkerHell
Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory.
188
|
Posted - 2015.10.05 09:06:32 -
[282] - Quote
I heard that alot of them have negative wallets because of the asset freeze? Seems a bit harsh to make Camels and Warlords wait with negative wallets if they are eventually found innocent. If they have negative wallets they cant even repair or trade their ships. |
Pinky TheBrain
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.06 01:37:56 -
[283] - Quote
TinkerHell wrote:I heard that alot of them have negative wallets because of the asset freeze? Seems a bit harsh to make Camels and Warlords wait with negative wallets if they are eventually found innocent. If they have negative wallets they cant even repair or trade their ships.
Yeah negative wallets is definately unfair for the guys that werent involved in the debacle. I feel for them. I hope this gets resolved soon |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
178
|
Posted - 2015.10.06 18:42:37 -
[284] - Quote
Can we get a reaction from Bad Bobby to the recent development? |
Gary Bell
Herp Inc.dot Darwinism.
146
|
Posted - 2015.10.06 18:51:39 -
[285] - Quote
What development Post IT!
PS.. I already posted how to fix this whole thing CCP in the other thread |
Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
3052
|
Posted - 2015.10.06 18:53:05 -
[286] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6082899#post6082899
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
|
Lovey Dovey
Great Game Mechanic GoonSwarm
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.06 19:17:05 -
[287] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:Can we get a reaction from Bad Bobby to the recent development?
"There has never ever never ever never ever never ever EVER been any cheating in Hydra" |
JEFFRAIDER
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
391
|
Posted - 2015.10.06 23:28:28 -
[288] - Quote
p u r e p w n a g e
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1249
|
Posted - 2015.10.07 04:28:06 -
[289] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:Can we get a reaction from Bad Bobby to the recent development? Sure!
See you again next year! |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
185
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 15:59:48 -
[290] - Quote
Kadesh wrote: I regret nothing. If i could rewind time back, I just would be more opsec, so that no little f*****r annoys me after the tournament. Anyone who has other mindset with ~honor~ or any other high-moral bullshit doesn't deserve to win. This is eve.
Bad Bobby wrote:Captain Thunk wrote:Can we get a reaction from Bad Bobby to the recent development? Sure! See you again next year!
Yep! I can well imagine us all being forced to endure another episode of this. |
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Mr Rive
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
122
|
Posted - 2015.10.10 02:31:41 -
[291] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Overall I think I've achieved what I set out to in this thread and in the absence of a CCP verdict, I can declare victory and take my rest for now.
I'd like to thank the PL posters for being so co-operative. I didn't expect to get such an easy ride.
If you could weaponize smug, my face would destroy an entire continent right about now.
|
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
1068
|
Posted - 2015.10.12 09:48:44 -
[292] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Captain Thunk wrote:Can we get a reaction from Bad Bobby to the recent development? Sure! See you again next year!
I'm pretty damn sure whatever reincarnation of hydracamels of the deep we will see in the tournament, they will try to cheat around rules somehow. A life AT ban of every single member + alts of them should have been spoken by CCP. |
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