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Malcanis
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Posted - 2006.12.12 10:23:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Rey Xavier Edited by: Rey Xavier on 12/12/2006 08:23:05 Hm, I wonder what's technically possible. If the infrastructure of EVE can't support more then 50000 players in the current form maybe there could be a kind of "superstructure", a kind of linked shards, where each shard is connected to the other, but like traveling from one Galaxy(arm) to the other it would not be without restrictions (kind of jump queue or something to balance shard load and /or working like JC). Maybe there is also the option to have support systems to improve performance in shards under heavy load because of massive engagements. Even though no perfect solution it could create the 50000 player chunks technically possible while still having a connected EVE-world.
Such a structure could be implemented rp/gameplay wise with a new opening wormhole leading to unexplored space or something...
I am no network/server specialist so forgive me throwing around generalisations without the neccessary technical background, just thought it might be an interesting idea...
I'd be fine with this as long as we could hop from shard to shard relatively freely. Once per 24 hour game cycle would be fine - the same rate as jump clones: Frequently enough so that it's not a huge problem but not so frequently that it's something that you can do casually. I'd also support there being a very limited number of entry points - the wormhole idea was a good one. It would be cute to have initially just one hi-sec system (the entry point), surrounded by a 1-2 deep shell of low-sec, with the rest of the new cluster as pure 0.0. Every month or so convert 2-4 of the highest-traffic low-sec to hi-sec, and 4-6 of the highest traffic 0.0 to low sec.
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Malcanis
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Posted - 2006.12.12 10:27:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Sokratesz
instead, get out of empire. living in 0.0 = no queues no lag no nothing
I can tell you for a fact that this is not true. Although it is certainly better than Jita...
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babyblue
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Posted - 2006.12.12 10:32:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Insidi Us The thing I love about a single server is player accountability. Last thing we need is some server A idiot coming to server B and leaving his or her reputation at the door.
To be honest, I would love that .
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Radioactive Babe
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Posted - 2006.12.12 11:00:00 -
[64]
the large majority of players (yes, the blob in high sec) would welcome it as their rep means nothing to them and couldnt give a **** about others either (except tossers like lofty)
someone mentioned the GHSC and Cyvok etc as showing why a single shard is great. newsflash: mostly just whorums and epeen measurers know who they are (or give a danm) ..
A good suggestion is having multiple galaxys (the wormhole comes alive again), but you can only jump between them once every 24 hours (at DT?).. good idea, just put controls on it - no wardecced corps (possibly no newbie corps), no transferring materials from one to the other, no ships/pos's transferred ... and maybe the ore could be very poor, so everyone is in T1 cruisers and frigs, and no-one can own the place with 100 T2 fitted BS's .... and 100X the routes from high sec to 0.0 .... and one for the pirates, no local
alas, poor risk vs reward, I knew you well
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.12.12 11:03:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Vetur So is there something to be gained - something tangible - from continuing to insist on remaining on a single server?
Yes. And if you don't get it, you don't get Eve. ----------
IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.12.12 11:13:00 -
[66]
Edited by: keepiru on 12/12/2006 11:12:52 All you people who keep suggesting shards: there's a special place for you in hell, and they have extra-pointy white-hot rusted iron sticks just for you.
If single server is not what you want, find another game, and don't let the door hit you on the way out. ----------------
Where are the scan probe BPOs? |
Miss Overlord
Gallente Ferrum Pugnus New Eve Order
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Posted - 2006.12.12 11:42:00 -
[67]
Originally by: keepiru Edited by: keepiru on 12/12/2006 11:12:52 All you people who keep suggesting shards: there's a special place for you in hell, and they have extra-pointy white-hot rusted iron sticks just for you.
If single server is not what you want, find another game, and don't let the door hit you on the way out.
[yellow] im with ya there if youre not doing anything going to work etc log out - perhaps an afk timer of 1 hour might work would also remove cloaked alts from low sec this would reduce lag - removing drones in high sec is profitable and easier now wit hscan probes ( seperate from finding mission runners) secure cans if they havent been opened in 6 months return them to the owners hanger or make them unsecured and leave them and their contents in palce until someone with a scan probe finds em ( bring back the ability to scan for cargo cans also) was taken out off SISI for some lame reason - beyond that ongoing patching work more nodes faster technology upgrade the bandwidth requried from 56k min to 128k minimum connection speed that woudl help {/yellow]
These posts represent my personal views and not those of my corp or alliance. These do not reflect offical alliance or corp views
This is a disclaimer |
BurnHard
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Posted - 2006.12.12 12:18:00 -
[68]
I'm not sure I understand the logic of Shard = Bad. If you want to think about it, we already have 2 shards, with the one in China. The two are completely separate and don't interact with each other, so, err, please explain why this is bad again?
It all depends on Investment/Capital/Player Numbers. They cannot continue to increase ad-nauseum. At some point CCP either have to invest in a new shard or invest in new code - one or the other, if they want to grow over a certain limit.
There comes a point where your performance return per-circuit board added is no longer economic.
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.12.12 12:24:00 -
[69]
Sharding EVE would be the worst thing CCP could possibly do. I have full faith that they never will. -----------------------------------------------
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Rey Xavier
Gallente Bluestar Enterprises
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Posted - 2006.12.12 12:27:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Rey Xavier on 12/12/2006 12:27:49 About the shard in China:
I think you can't compare that 100% since this is probably rather a marketing and political issue. ===============================
Ihr pers÷nliches Kreditinstitut |
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Vanguard Frontiers Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.12.12 12:28:00 -
[71]
Originally by: BurnHard
I'm not sure I understand the logic of Shard = Bad. If you want to think about it, we already have 2 shards, with the one in China. The two are completely separate and don't interact with each other, so, err, please explain why this is bad again?
It all depends on Investment/Capital/Player Numbers. They cannot continue to increase ad-nauseum. At some point CCP either have to invest in a new shard or invest in new code - one or the other, if they want to grow over a certain limit.
There comes a point where your performance return per-circuit board added is no longer economic.
The game desperatly needs more nodes. In the region of 1 node per 50-100 users, insted of 1 node per 250 users. --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE |
Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.12.12 12:29:00 -
[72]
Moore's Law says that computing power on average doubles every eighteen months, so advances in technology are almost keeping up with Eve's PCU stats.
As such, I imagine that it will be a very long time indeed before the Eve cluster starts to overheat.
Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
BurnHard
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Posted - 2006.12.12 12:30:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Patch86 Sharding EVE would be the worst thing CCP could possibly do. I have full faith that they never will.
They already have. We have a shard for China. When the servers reach their limit, both from a software and hardware perspective, assuming the ROI would be prohibitive to modify either, the only way to continue growth will be to "shard", provided character transfer from one shard to the other was not possible.
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BurnHard
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Posted - 2006.12.12 12:31:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Rodj Blake Moore's Law says that computing power on average doubles every eighteen months, so advances in technology are almost keeping up with Eve's PCU stats.
As such, I imagine that it will be a very long time indeed before the Eve cluster starts to overheat.
Moores law is over sunshine. These days the trick is in the software being able to take advantage of multi-cores/distributed processing scenarios. I doubt the core of Eve is able to. So we are either talking new shard or new software. It all depends on which is most economic.
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BlueFieldsInMay
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Posted - 2006.12.12 12:32:00 -
[75]
I remember when we passed 20k, not to long before the major hardware upgrade. You'd get 350ish people in Oursalert or some place and get stuck after the jump, no warning nothing... two hours while you waited for a GM to move you. They could only go so fast because thier commands had to run on the overloaded node also.
So 10k users later the game has something like 50k more players, way less lag and I haven't been stuck in Jita in a very long time.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.12.12 12:37:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 12/12/2006 12:54:47 Edited by: Rodj Blake on 12/12/2006 12:37:39
Originally by: BurnHard
Originally by: Rodj Blake Moore's Law says that computing power on average doubles every eighteen months, so advances in technology are almost keeping up with Eve's PCU stats.
As such, I imagine that it will be a very long time indeed before the Eve cluster starts to overheat.
Moores law is over sunshine. These days the trick is in the software being able to take advantage of multi-cores/distributed processing scenarios. I doubt the core of Eve is able to. So we are either talking new shard or new software. It all depends on which is most economic.
Notice that I used the weak version of Moore's Law - computing power rather than raw clock speed or number of switches.
Anyway, lag is no worse now than it was after the release of Castor three years ago.
Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
Matrix Aran
Legio Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.12.12 12:38:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Matrix Aran on 12/12/2006 12:41:01
Originally by: Vetur I've been saying it in-game, and yes, I'm sure people are sick of hearing me whining on. It's heretical flame-bait, too, so I know I deserve what I'm bound to get here. But...
We've all been impressed with EVE's ever-increasing peak concurrent user figure. The MMO world has been rocked at the stunning achievement, I'm sure. Everquest and World of Warcraft can only look on in awe.
But seriously, CCP, isn't it time you rested on your laurels now? You've made your point: you've managed to get more people online on a single server than any other game ever. By a long, long way, too. Your record's safe for a while, no doubt - and even when and if it's broken, you still got there first. But - and maybe this is just my impression as someone who doesn't understand the technicalities behind the whole thing - I get the distinct impression Tranquility's starting to creak under the strain. Traffic control queues, from what I can gather, are a symptom of this. And because of the node setup the queues don't even make logical sense: more than once I've been held for five or ten minutes to access systems that proved to have a tiny handful of pilots in them. There's chaos in Jita - every other line in the Help channel seems to be making that point - and numerous other systems are becoming nightmares to navigate. But of course we all know about these issues.
I realise I'm uneducated on this; I'm not even what you'd call a 'hardcore' player - so I'm quite prepared to accept that I just don't know what I'm talking about. But really, is there a reason why the game can't and shouldn't be sharded at this point? I've been playing casually for a good few years now, and the game and its economy worked perfectly well a year ago when we had half the PCU level. So is there something to be gained - something tangible - from continuing to insist on remaining on a single server?
You sir have just steped on the bigest forum landmine ever in Eve. Never ever speak of sharding this lovely game, or we shalt chop your ********* off. Lets take this for example: In eve BoB destroys the first titan in its history. If there were multiple shards this event would mean diddly squat because it just means some alliance on "that other shard" kill some big ship. It loses its impact on the whole comunity and the effect gets worse the more shards you add.
Technicaly there is not a forseeable limit to a single shard. The game today with 33K peak users is running about as well back when 5K users was a record. The reason is simple: Eve effectively is already sharded. Seeing as different solar systems rest on different server nodes, efectivly the server is segmented, but under normal conditions you never notice this. As more and more players join the game, the eve devs add more hardware to create more individual nodes. ----
Originally by: Oveur on rigs Sure, np, it's only like ... the 6th time I say this here
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wystler
Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2006.12.12 12:54:00 -
[78]
To those people commenting about traffic control and the problems caused by it, Oveur stated on EVE-TV on Sunday that its causing more problems than it solves and they are talking about taking it out. Whether that means definitely it IS coming out or not I guess we wait and see
(Donations of beer to Oveur usually assist this kind of thing along smoothly )
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Nobler
Caldari Messerschmitt Shipyards The SUdden Death Squad
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Posted - 2006.12.12 13:01:00 -
[79]
I like the post about logging off afk players, I think if you are afk for six hours- sitting in a station, you will be logged off after so many hours of inactivity, or maybe make that an option in the client to set a log off timer.
I mean come on how many of us get drunk, go ganking, get pod killed, and pass out at the station We sleep for hours on end while we tie up a spot on the cluster..it's fair. Not just get drunk some of just don't sleep so we fall asleep in front of the computer.
For you old farts that use to play Trade Wars and games a like remember it had a log off inactivity timer.
Also adopting from Trade Wars - Sector voids. Players should be able to exclude waypoints in their autopilot path, and we can sorta do this now, we just can't specify exact sectors.
Jump Queues - I remember hearing they were going away after last big upgrade because that would *fix* all the problems. I think it would be fair to cloak someone that is waiting to jump. I have been in 0.0 jumping into a 0.0 sector with 0 people in it, and got put in a jump queue. Possible that low populated 0.0 space is being put on nodes with high empire traffic..anyway it's a load of Minmater Dog Poo that we can get ganked waiting at a gate because the cluster has issues. Balance it please.
Closing- CCP congrats for making one of my favorite games. Three paid accounts, one ****ed off wife, one house that never will get painted , multiple computers, high speed internet connection, and constant forum browsing at work. Hi my name is Nobler and I'm an EvE addict. Great game, just has it's growing pains.
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Mesacc
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.12.12 13:07:00 -
[80]
Originally by: George Soros A new shard can be a whole new section of Eve. New areas that exists parallel to the Eve we know.
That made me think, What if the worm hole re-opened (second server we could swap between)and we could go back to the galaxy we came from? maybee find earth? (or by that time, whats left of it) Just a thought
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babyblue
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Posted - 2006.12.12 13:29:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Mesacc
Originally by: George Soros A new shard can be a whole new section of Eve. New areas that exists parallel to the Eve we know.
That made me think, What if the worm hole re-opened (second server we could swap between)and we could go back to the galaxy we came from? maybee find earth? (or by that time, whats left of it) Just a thought
imho that is not the same as another shard, it is simply a mechanism for adding to the existing shard, since what defines your shard is both character and object persistence from one server to another.
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Vetur
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Posted - 2006.12.12 13:31:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Glengrant
Originally by: Vetur I see a lot of apparently population-related problems,
And you assume it is a universal. But it is not. I play a lot - I have very rarely any noticable lag. Certainly not enough to bother me.
No, I don't assume it's universal. I assume it's a problem being experienced by a lot of players. As a matter of fact lag rarely causes me problems, either, although I notice it from time to time. I was more moved to ask the question by the jump queues, and by CCP's own comments about the reduction in server performance lately. Quote: And never even close to the level where I would welcome a shard (China doesn't count - and even that bothers me a bit).
Quote: A solution that breaks the game is not a solution, regardless how obvious.
So surely there is no level at which you'd welcome a shard. Or is it more the case that sharding would not break the game, as such, but that it would change it in a way that you personally wouldn't like? Quote: Also I assure you that I fly around a lot and I was in about 4 short queues (longest was 7 - once - cost me 15 seconds or so)
And that's fine - as long as you realise that people's experience with queues is inevitably going to be subjective. You've lost 15 seconds to a queue - good for you. Many others have lost a lot longer than that - not to mention the loss of ships and ISK. And finding myself at #56 in a queue last night to get into a system reporting 13 pilots on the map seemed unreasonable. You may well have been lucky. Perhaps today you'll not be. Who knows? Quote: But perhaps part of the problem is not TQ but your client or connection? (not queues obviously :-)
No - as you say, not queues. |
Vetur
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Posted - 2006.12.12 13:33:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Crumplecorn Yes. And if you don't get it, you don't get Eve.
Thanks for that bit of wisdom. |
Crumplecorn
Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.12.12 13:34:00 -
[84]
Originally by: BurnHard
Originally by: Patch86 Sharding EVE would be the worst thing CCP could possibly do. I have full faith that they never will.
They already have. We have a shard for China.
No, that's a seperate game. You sign up for WoW, you get put on one of many servers. You sign up for Eve, there is only one server you are put on. They needed a seperate one for China for other reasons. ----------
IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win |
Grez
Minmatar The Raven Warriors
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Posted - 2006.12.12 13:36:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Grez on 12/12/2006 13:38:02 Firstly, EVE is on many servers. It's not just one blade like many other game servers are. TQ is THE most powerful virtual gaming server in the world. It's so powerful, it's in the top 500 super clusters in the world, and CCP had to check-in with the US military to get the RAMSAN's they wanted. Point I'm trying to make is that, EVE's already sharded, beyond belief, but CCP's software handles it in such a way that it's handled as one whole.
The next step for TQ is optimisations on the software side of things. We already have nodes up the wazoo, and they are always trying to find ways to boost TQ, and give her new life. More nodes, or hardware will not fix the problem, neither will sharding it to much extent. The reason we have a China 'shard', is that the Chinese government do not allot Chinese gamers to play on games more than a few hours a day, and they enforce checks for this, and they have to have seperate gaming servers to allow this, hence there's a seperate 'shard' for China.
Just wait for them to roll out software enhancements, and stay out of trade hubs (Jita). ---
Cache Clearer
Still waiting for a Wrangler-edit! |
Mesacc
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.12.12 13:36:00 -
[86]
Originally by: babyblue
Originally by: Mesacc
Originally by: George Soros A new shard can be a whole new section of Eve. New areas that exists parallel to the Eve we know.
That made me think, What if the worm hole re-opened (second server we could swap between)and we could go back to the galaxy we came from? maybee find earth? (or by that time, whats left of it) Just a thought
imho that is not the same as another shard, it is simply a mechanism for adding to the existing shard, since what defines your shard is both character and object persistence from one server to another.
Your prolly right. I dont have a clue how it all works or what all those technical terms mean. I just thought it would be cool.
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BhallSpawn
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Posted - 2006.12.12 13:37:00 -
[87]
Dynamic Load Balencing That's what eve needs It doesn't need more shards, and split up up servers
It needs resource allocation on a dynamic level to make it so where the population goes the resources go with it.
I'm tired of the ques, they made no sense.. (sorry the cosmos is full right now)... but something has to be done. Telling us 50k would be no problem with the tranq update turned out to be a huge lie, and the server can barely handle 30k.
If the programmers were smart they'd put the game down for a week and redo the code right. Cause as it is now.. throwing hardware upgrades at a borked system won't solve anything.
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Grez
Minmatar The Raven Warriors
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Posted - 2006.12.12 13:40:00 -
[88]
Originally by: BhallSpawn Dynamic Load Balencing That's what eve needs It doesn't need more shards, and split up up servers
It needs resource allocation on a dynamic level to make it so where the population goes the resources go with it.
I'm tired of the ques, they made no sense.. (sorry the cosmos is full right now)... but something has to be done. Telling us 50k would be no problem with the tranq update turned out to be a huge lie, and the server can barely handle 30k.
If the programmers were smart they'd put the game down for a week and redo the code right. Cause as it is now.. throwing hardware upgrades at a borked system won't solve anything.
It already has this. If a node goes down, it shunts systems it hosts to a new node as fast as it can. It also detects the usage of systems over a period of time, and assigns the more comonly used systems to nodes with systems that are hardly ever used. And I'd love to see you re-write millions of lines of code in a week. They're throwin hardware at TQ because they needed it to host the new regions. ---
Cache Clearer
Still waiting for a Wrangler-edit! |
Mephesto Nizal
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Posted - 2006.12.12 13:41:00 -
[89]
There needs to be a purgetory fire in between systems. When you jump with the gate, there should be somekind of visual effect happening before you enter the system during the trip. Have that effect last as long as the queue.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.12.12 13:43:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Crumplecorn on 12/12/2006 13:43:45
Originally by: Mephesto Nizal There needs to be a purgetory fire in between systems. When you jump with the gate, there should be somekind of visual effect happening before you enter the system during the trip. Have that effect last as long as the queue.
A.K.A. a loading screen. Nice.
I can just see the loading message now, 'Loading... Please wait as that hauler you were chasing gets away' ----------
IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win |
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