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Venalic Erus
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Posted - 2006.11.30 21:52:00 -
[1]
Is it just me... or should miners/builders not sell on the open market....
Miners/builders IMO are stupid peeps that spend thier time shooting royds with lasers to sell a product...
Let me give you some advice.. Get someone that knows about business to do your selling for you!!
Take the new BC's
They were selling for approx 120mill quite happily until someons cam along and decided to put them on the market for 100mill... 20mill drop??? WHY!!!
1mill isk drop would have been far better, keeps the price high for every one..
Then sombody else comes along and puts 4 on for 80mill.. all within the space of 1hour the price is dropped by 40mill..
we are now in a situation 24hrs later where the new BC's are build price +1mill
All becuase people are stupid and do not try and get the highest price possible for thier product!
Have some market sense people, supply and demand... Try selling at 1isk under the current lowest, rather than millions.. keeps the market good for everyone INCLUDING YOU!!!
grrr, idiots make me sooo angry sometimes...
p.s. flame away.. i am looking forward to it
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Erfnam
Time Cube Syndicate Daikoku Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.30 21:57:00 -
[2]
So you're saying that you want everyone to over inflate prices? If they did, than 120m for a drake would be "build price +1mill".
Time Cube Syndicate is recruiting |
Fedjakeen
Rebirth Inc. Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2006.11.30 22:00:00 -
[3]
Quote: Have some market sense people, supply and demand...
You explained it yourself. |
Venalic Erus
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Posted - 2006.11.30 22:06:00 -
[4]
so you dont count labour as as a cost?
current build price for a Drake (at regional mineral prices) is 37.5millapprox
they are currently selling for 42mill
where is the labour cost?
In business you look to make between 30 and 40% AFTER all costings... including labour, there is no room for labour at the current sell price...
If ships are selling for 120mill why drop the price to 100mill? why not 119mill and make an extra 19mill into the bargin!!
people need to learn some business if they are going to make headway into the capitalist empire that is EVE...
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.30 22:09:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Venalic Erus so you dont count labour as as a cost?
current build price for a Drake (at regional mineral prices) is 37.5millapprox
they are currently selling for 42mill
where is the labour cost?
In business you look to make between 30 and 40% AFTER all costings... including labour, there is no room for labour at the current sell price...
If ships are selling for 120mill why drop the price to 100mill? why not 119mill and make an extra 19mill into the bargin!!
people need to learn some business if they are going to make headway into the capitalist empire that is EVE...
Uh, dude, tech 1 ships are a low margin item.
Tier 3 BS and Tier 2 BC are no different than any other T1 ship.
-[23] Member-
Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON! |
Venalic Erus
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Posted - 2006.11.30 22:14:00 -
[6]
why should they be a low margin item?
if you have the only ship for sale in the entire region do you not sell for the highest price you can get... or do you sell for the minimum?
if its the latter stick to shooting royds and let business people handle the trades!
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mechtech
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Posted - 2006.11.30 22:40:00 -
[7]
Well, 1m profit is enough for some people, so thats the price.
You can't stop it, if you SOMEHOW get every producer to rig prices, someone new will go "hey, thats more profit than my lvl 3 missions", and set it back to +1m.
Supply and demand.
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Venalic Erus
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Posted - 2006.11.30 22:45:00 -
[8]
Quote: Supply and demand.
do you really understand that??
just because you make a small profit does not mean that you should not make a big profit if you are the only seller..
low supply + high demand = high prices!! not as you suggest... price so we break even!!
learn some business people please!!
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Caroglac
Amarr The Arrow Project The ARR0W Project
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Posted - 2006.11.30 23:06:00 -
[9]
so by your logic I should charge you 10,000 isk per unit for zydrine and you would happily pay it?
anyway, t1 ship bpo's inclueding the new tier 2 bc's and tier 3 battlecruisers are available to anyone with the money to buy them...
so there is an abundance of people building them. and prices fall to 5-10% above cost.
IF you cant handle that margin.. maby you should quit building and go run missions or something...
if you can get into the t2 production game you can see the margins that you are dreaming about but, until then.. dont whine here Cap Ship Sales |
Venalic Erus
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Posted - 2006.11.30 23:16:00 -
[10]
Quote: so by your logic I should charge you 10,000 isk per unit for zydrine and you would happily pay it?
if you were the only seller and i was that desperate for zyd... then the obvious answer is yes...
i am saying however dropping prices by 20mill a time is downright stupidity...
the prices would have remined high for alot longer which would have been good for all manufactures..
why take a 20mill loss if you dont need to?
basic marketing, many people lack!!
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Fiddlestx
Caldari Convergent Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.30 23:54:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Fiddlestx on 30/11/2006 23:55:34
Originally by: Venalic Erus
the prices would have remined high for alot longer which would have been good for all manufactures..
why take a 20mill loss if you dont need to?
basic marketing, many people lack!!
More like basic integrity that some manufacturer's lack. You say it's good for "all" manufacturers, but what about those buying the ships for 3x what you pay to build it? I think it's amusing that people nerfed your profit margin personally , and it's even funnier that you find it offensive that someone would even dare to sell ships for merely twice what they cost to build when they could just give into greed and make 3x. It's called integrity, here is a link to help you: Integrity. Honesty and integrity make for good business, extortion and price gouging always come back to bite you.
FYI your information what happened is supply and demand by it's very definition. You put ships up for 120 mil and people know they are getting royally screwed. Another manufacturer see's it as an opportunity. They put some up for 80 mil and the buyers see it and say "Hey, it's overpriced but look at that order for 120mil." They think they are getting a deal. You see a market where people are trying to take advantage of others with thier prices and you go in and make a market for yourself by undercutting and charging a more reasonable price. If you have a problem with this then as someone else said, go run missions, but don't ever complain because someone nerfed your margin that you had no business charging in the first place
Fiddlestx
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Venalic Erus
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Posted - 2006.12.01 00:05:00 -
[12]
haha.. yeah it was nerfed...
but in the few hours while the going was good i made just short of a bill plus all the BC bpo's (stockpile minerals FTW)
The people that complain are the buyers... but unfortunatly thats what they call a sellers market... if people are willing to pay that, then it should be sold at that.. no more no less... to drop the price by 20mill is still stupidity in any words...
119mill buyers would have still thought they got a good deal... if they were willing to pay that!!
i am glad i saw it coming and pulled out at the right time before the people who dont know how to run the market got involved!!
to talk of integraty.. lol.. what about integraty between manufactures huh...
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Chris15
Infinity Aeronautics
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Posted - 2006.12.01 00:46:00 -
[13]
I agree with Venalic to an extent. I would assume most builders (as with real life firms) would be profit maximisers. If people are willing to pay extremely high prices then the builders should take advantage of this opportunity. As its probably been said before we know the supply for the ships is pretty low and demand is high therefore there will be a shortage and its only normal that you pay an inflated price for a scare good.
But on the other hand, I am an EVE buyer and not so much a builder and I do think the price at the moment is a little steep for a simple Tech 1 ship. Like its been posted Tech 1 modules have low profit margins, they are in huge supply, they're price elastic. Not many builders can get away with charging high prices on a Tech 1 good.
Hopefully in a week or so these new ships will simply fall in place with the rest of the Tech 1 ships & modules and fall to a reasonable price, for my sake But I say builders should take advantage while they can. Just my two cents.
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Lithonius
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Posted - 2006.12.01 02:21:00 -
[14]
You also should take into consideration that if you're selling at material cost * 3, that price isn't sustainable. The guy who undercut you by 20 million was still making a huge profit, he just realizes that as more people get those BPOs into production, the price is going to deflate to material cost + 1-2 million. The longer your ships sit unsold on the market, the less they're worth.
You've got to price to move. If you want to corner the market, you need to go T2.
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Donthin Starlance
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Posted - 2006.12.01 02:52:00 -
[15]
This may be slightly off topic but it seems to me that the integration of quality into ships by CCP would allow for both type of builder to exist. What I am suggesting is that when producing ships (anything really) that the builder gets to choose the quality on some predetermined scale (lets just say 1-100 for now) the higher the quality of the ship then the better stats it gets, not a lot better but enough to make a difference.
The effect of quality on the builder would be time used and mineral costs. A higher quality ship would take more time and minerals than a lower quality ship, crazy I know. With the mechanism in place there would still be reason to buy that 120 mil ship if its top of the line, but some ships would still be produced and sold at 80 mil. If nothing else this would make for a more realistic ship building industry, and builders could start seeking out niche markets.
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Ares Splinter
Dark Technocracy
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Posted - 2006.12.01 03:48:00 -
[16]
Lol, the OP lives in a fantasy world that reality is settling around.
The fact is that most people will wait for the price to drop & builders will oblige them. I highly doubt that it is only miners that are lowering the price of the new ships. It is the people that DO have a grasp of economics & market dynamics.
So sorry that you were not able to gouge the market for billions, it was idiotic to believe that you woulod be able to so with a tech one blueprint that sells openly on the market.
"Life either shrinks or expands in proportion to ones courage." |
Belzububba
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Posted - 2006.12.01 04:18:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Ares Splinter Lol, the OP lives in a fantasy world that reality is settling around.
The fact is that most people will wait for the price to drop & builders will oblige them. I highly doubt that it is only miners that are lowering the price of the new ships. It is the people that DO have a grasp of economics & market dynamics.
So sorry that you were not able to gouge the market for billions, it was idiotic to believe that you woulod be able to so with a tech one blueprint that sells openly on the market.
I agree think of the various game system launches they went crazy for a while then the price dropped like a brick I remember the original play station dropping almost $150 overnight the reason the ships go down so fast is if I am a buyer I will take the cheapest one. If there are 30 at 120mil and 1 at 119.5 mil I take the cheap one Also as a seller they are trying to push a quick profit knowing the bottom is going to drop fast Yes some people will make cash in this but them will be focusing on the long run Also for you saying most businesses try to make 30 to 40% after cost that is just absurd Where I work at the average net is about 4 to 15% Also take airlines after everything is paid they only make about $200 per flight (at least according to CNN money section a awhile back)
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Archbishop
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.12.01 04:32:00 -
[18]
I have "uber" builder skills and use buy orders to buy minerals very inexpensively. I'll fly 10 jumps for a good deal on minerals when I find it. I'm a cheapskate.
Yet I'm still undercut on the market? Why? Well several reasons.
1. People want to sell at ANY cost even BELOW what it cost them (dumb).
2. Miner/Builders basically are mining for FREE to supply the trit and pyerite and whatever else. They're selling their ships below market cost not realizing if they just sold the minerals (to builders) they'd make MORE MONEY in the long run.
3. Macrominers are in my opinion also doing some building. When I see Battleships so far under build cost I could never sell them I know "something" is up. Either its a complete idiot selling below cost without a clue or its a miner/builder basically working as slave labor or its a macrominer selling just for quick isk as there is no "labor" macromining and they're just trying to get isk as fast as they can to ebay it or whatever.
Venalic is right to a point. The "market supply" of certain T2 items and the limited availability of those BPO's has led to insane prices on some T2 ships. Profits of 300-500% arent uncommon for particular models.
By contrast the T1 market is flooded, very low margin, and overloaded with builders. Back after beta unlimited run BPC's meant people who invested billions in BPOs basically got "nothing" for their money. Even now with limited run BPCs its still way to easy for people to build whatever they want. If some things like explorer or researcher are a "career" then we need professional builder as a career. Make it so intensive skillwise that you cant do anything else but build yet make the benefits so good that non-builders have to see a builder.
Overall the problem with undercutters is at the heart of everything. We've all put things on the market for $500,000 isk only to come back an hour later and check and see someone at $499,999.99 isk. Its just the way it is some people are just "that way". I know in a market situation I'll match the lowest price but I dont undercut. Likewise if I'm a few jumps from the lowest price I may even market a bit higher just figuring people will save the travel time. Usually they do.
Archbishop
PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Victor Vision
Central Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2006.12.01 05:47:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Victor Vision on 01/12/2006 05:47:59
Originally by: Archbishop 1. People want to sell at ANY cost even BELOW what it cost them (dumb).
Mr. Archbishop,
people that sell t1 below buildcost most likely want a fast sale and might in addition to that have very bad refinery skills.
The solution to this problem is rather simple. BUY everything that is sold below your build cost. You can not loose, eihter you sell the item for more or you recycle it for a profit.
Thank you for your time, VV
In my business there is no black, nor white. Just a million different shades of grey. |
Venalic Erus
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Posted - 2006.12.01 09:28:00 -
[20]
Quote: people that sell t1 below buildcost most likely want a fast sale and might in addition to that have very bad refinery skills.
bad refinery skills... surely that would make the sale cost higher... not lower....
The point i am making is that why do people feel the need to undercut other manufactures by such vast amounts. I cannot see the logic behind it..
It not only happens with ships, it happens with 99% of the buildable items on the market.. If you are willing to take such a cut in profit, then the whole system becomes unviable for everyone..
Enevetably this should mean that prices rise again due to a lack of supply.. but unfortunatly this is not the case.. there is always another idiot that comes along and nerfs the market yet again!!
i stand by what i say, 1isk people.. not millions....
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2006.12.01 09:49:00 -
[21]
Anyone wanting to buy a ship +20M is free to set up a buy order for that price, me thinks OP bought up a ****load of BPOs with his/her main in order to sell overpriced ships.
Or OP bought them overpriced ships in an attempt to resell even higher when other producers dropped their prices leaving OP with negative in wallet.
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Venalic Erus
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Posted - 2006.12.01 10:25:00 -
[22]
was that last post targeted at me?
if it was your entirley wrong!
I built all the ships i sold!..
buying and selling is a dangerous game, i had stock piled enough mins to build enough ships to make a very tidy profit... but that is beside the point AND off topic..
i know what the eve market is like.. its full of idiots that massivly undercut each other for a reason unknown to me...
once again... 1 isk not millions, have some business sense!!
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Victor Vision
Central Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2006.12.01 10:44:00 -
[23]
Miss Venalic Erus,
since I am in an excellent mood due to having had a very profitable business day, I will try to enlighten you further.
Originally by: Venalic Erus bad refinery skills... surely that would make the sale cost higher... not lower....
Not true. Most sellers that sell under production cost are not producers. They are either people trying to sell off old ships, or loot. Many of these people do not even bother looking at how many minerals they would get from refining the items.
Those that do check and still sell under mineral price, have bad refining skills. With bad refining skills at a station with 32% yield the amount of minerals to be gained from an item is very different from a person with maxed refining skills in a station with 50% refining yield.
Originally by: Venalic Erus The point i am making is that why do people feel the need to undercut other manufactures by such vast amounts. I cannot see the logic behind it..
The logic is, especially with very overpriced items, that offering the item significantly below the sell price will result in fast sales. Referring to the new ship types, it was cristal clear that the prices of these would only be very high for a short amount of time. So the speed of sales was of importance.
Playing the market is a form of PvP, Miss Venalic Erus. Skilled players have always been, and will always be, making isks of the market.
Please attend some further classes in the University of Caille School. This might help. Of course Amarrian schools are better, and if you had attended those you probably never would have posted the unenlightend posts that you did post.
All the best to you for your future, VV
In my business there is no black, nor white. Just a million different shades of grey. |
Feronia
Gallente Magma Industries
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Posted - 2006.12.01 10:50:00 -
[24]
The tech 1 market has always suffered from a severe case of overproduction. This tends to lead to lower prices and after some time to sales at production cost.
The new battlecruisers and battleships are no exception. The short production time makes it easy to flood the market with new ships daily. Its a matter of weeks before we reach the lowest pricelevel, after research has been done on the BPO's.
Whether you undercut with 1 Isk or 10 mill Isk doesn't make much difference, it only accelerates the price downgrading process. So enjoy the normal price levels while they last.
Why undercut with a few mill instead of 1 Isk ? Nobody is going to do several jumps to save 1 Isk. They might to save a few mill.
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Horton Heat
Distribution Solutions
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Posted - 2006.12.01 10:58:00 -
[25]
When you undermine people by a reasonable margin then you're calling out the over-pricing sellers of goods, you're causing a shift in the market towards more reasonable prices, you're maybe even thinking of your customers (God forbid we think of the customers!) - though you are probably just thinking I'll put these on, still at a profit, but a fair bit lower than the nearest seller (to make life easier).
Undercut someone by 1 isk and you'll be undercut in a few minutes yourself, undercut someone by a few million and you're going to either make them reduce their prices or get out of the market.
Where you have a single person selling to many, a monopoly, the seller can fix the price to an extent. These don't last long in Eve, and as the market for a new product settles then supply and demand comes into effect - towards the start of a product's manufacture then the 'rules' of supply and demand don't mean too much.
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Jennai
The Greater Goon The OSS
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:06:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Jennai on 01/12/2006 11:09:23
Originally by: Venalic Erus
Quote: so by your logic I should charge you 10,000 isk per unit for zydrine and you would happily pay it?
if you were the only seller and i was that desperate for zyd... then the obvious answer is yes...
i am saying however dropping prices by 20mill a time is downright stupidity...
the prices would have remined high for alot longer which would have been good for all manufactures..
why take a 20mill loss if you dont need to?
basic marketing, many people lack!!
I sold my first rokh on patch day for 235m. at the time, the only ones on the market were 400. I sold it cheap because I wanted money REAL QUICK so I could go buy drake bpos in kakakela and resell them in jita for 40m profit each. maybe the buyer resold it for 100m profit, maybe he kept it and was happy with getting such a great deal so early, it didn't matter to me because I needed the money right then. I put my second rokh on market for 300 and went away for a while. it eventually sold, and then I resold the bpo for 120m profit.
sometimes people want money right away. sometimes (e.g. reselling skillbooks in regions that don't have them) they're estimating that they'd make more profit over time by selling at a lower price. if there's only one guy in region selling a book and he's got it up at 40x markup and sale history says they're selling very slowly, the second reseller might put his up at 20x markup and sell them over twice as fast as they would at 40x.
when I built modules in oursulaert, I drove several competitors away by undercutting until prices were barely above mineral cost. some of them were dumb enough to undercut those prices by a large enough amount that I could buy out their entire stock and reprocess for profit, others just cancelled their sell orders and moved somewhere else. in both cases, I achieved my goal of making them go away so I could put my prices back to a good margin and not have to deal with some guy undercutting by one isk every ten minutes.
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MinusOrange
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:18:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Venalic Erus
Quote: Supply and demand.
do you really understand that??
just because you make a small profit does not mean that you should not make a big profit if you are the only seller..
low supply + high demand = high prices!! not as you suggest... price so we break even!!
learn some business people please!!
Supply and demand is a theory, not reality. We shouldn't comply with theory but theory should be altered to human behaviour.
Okay enough yada yada yada.
I know your frustration, i also had it when i thought production was a thing you could make money with. Well, you can't, or hardly. Except not when you mine your own stuff, buy the high ends and then sell it for the lowest price on the market.
The only way to do make money from your production are thinks like: have patience, sell in regions where the supply is low (meaning lazy people don't wanna make a couple of jumps to safe money). And i think you can think of other approaches as wel.
Keep your cool and be a business man that confronts himself with what is happening in eve.
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Lypert
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:52:00 -
[28]
it is called market fixing. Why not buy the ships that are underpriced and resell them or reprocess them. Now there is better business sense than just whingeing. -------------------------------------------------- Zemindar Supremacy is recruiting |
Sonlatur
Minmatar Matari Raiders
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Posted - 2006.12.01 12:04:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Venalic Erus
Quote: Supply and demand.
do you really understand that??
just because you make a small profit does not mean that you should not make a big profit if you are the only seller..
low supply + high demand = high prices!! not as you suggest... price so we break even!!
learn some business people please!!
If the supply really so low, then i suppose some people would buy the cheap battlecruisers and afterwards there would be more than enough buyers left to buy yours .
But maybe the supply isnt quite so low after all?
And for dropping the prices by a good bit - maybe they are out of money and need to sell quickly to build more.
Funny also that you assume all builders mine their minerals themselves...
-- "Greetings fellow pod pilot. I am Sonlatur of the Sebiestor tribe and you have become a target in my war against the Evil Amarr Empire. Ransom negotiations are possible." |
Block Ukx
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Posted - 2006.12.01 12:10:00 -
[30]
I agree with Velanic, but please there is no need to call people stupid.
I suggests miners/builders read Archbishop's post over and over. Selling at production prices its only going to hurt your bussines in the long run.
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