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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
A55 Burger
Weiland Yutani Corporation
36
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Posted - 2015.06.19 01:21:25 -
[1651] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:A55 Burger wrote:
I don't think they do at all levels.
Doesn't matter what you think, fact is they do play EVE. The other fact is that the CSM support this change too.
This is somewhat a fair point. However, it doesn't matter what any of us 'think'. What matters is the almighty dollar, and after spending probably 5K USD on this game over the last 7 years, the nature of their disconnect from what many players think is what alarms me. Call it my experiences with another MMO making sweeping changes without long contemplation.
Removing all the ship commands is a pretty sweeping change, and has me contemplating walking away from the whole mess.
I like game changes, as long as they are for a reason that makes sense. Changing how every ship in the game operates to address one ship class is absurd. Perhaps that isn't the real reason for the change, but if that's the case, that process should be transparent. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16243
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Posted - 2015.06.19 01:32:08 -
[1652] - Quote
A55 Burger wrote:baltec1 wrote:A55 Burger wrote:
I don't think they do at all levels.
Doesn't matter what you think, fact is they do play EVE. The other fact is that the CSM support this change too. This is somewhat a fair point. However, it doesn't matter what any of us 'think'. What matters is the almighty dollar, and after spending probably 5K USD on this game over the last 7 years, the nature of their disconnect from what many players think is what alarms me. Call it my experiences with another MMO making sweeping changes without long contemplation. Removing all the ship commands is a pretty sweeping change, and has me contemplating walking away from the whole mess. I like game changes, as long as they are for a reason that makes sense. Changing how every ship in the game operates to address one ship class is absurd. Perhaps that isn't the real reason for the change, but if that's the case, that process should be transparent.
They aren't removing orbit, approach and the like any time soon. This is another example of CCP saying something and people going off the deep end thinking they said something else. The only change happening is the fleet warp nerf as specified in the OP, nothing more. This change simply means you need to use dedicated scouts like we used to, nothing more. All of this talk of having to stagger warps in mixed fleets is nonsense. As is the view this is aimed only at bombers, CCP gave bombers as just one example of a fleet that would need to alter its tactics a bit.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16243
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Posted - 2015.06.19 01:33:51 -
[1653] - Quote
A55 Burger wrote:[quote=baltec1][quote=A55 Burger]
*Lots of people play this game for relatively narrow segments of gameplay. What would you do without the Megathron?
Fly another ship.
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A55 Burger
Weiland Yutani Corporation
36
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Posted - 2015.06.19 01:36:21 -
[1654] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:A55 Burger wrote:baltec1 wrote:A55 Burger wrote:
I don't think they do at all levels.
Doesn't matter what you think, fact is they do play EVE. The other fact is that the CSM support this change too. This is somewhat a fair point. However, it doesn't matter what any of us 'think'. What matters is the almighty dollar, and after spending probably 5K USD on this game over the last 7 years, the nature of their disconnect from what many players think is what alarms me. Call it my experiences with another MMO making sweeping changes without long contemplation. Removing all the ship commands is a pretty sweeping change, and has me contemplating walking away from the whole mess. I like game changes, as long as they are for a reason that makes sense. Changing how every ship in the game operates to address one ship class is absurd. Perhaps that isn't the real reason for the change, but if that's the case, that process should be transparent. They aren't removing orbit, approach and the like any time soon. This is another example of CCP saying something and people going off the deep end thinking they said something else. The only change happening is the fleet warp nerf as specified in the OP, nothing more. This change simply means you need to use dedicated scouts like we used to, nothing more. All of this talk of having to stagger warps in mixed fleets is nonsense. As is the view this is aimed only at bombers, CCP gave bombers as just one example of a fleet that would need to alter its tactics a bit.
I'm not concerned with the 'when' of future changes, I'm simply so dissatisfied with the direction of the game (this change being one point, the future change being the other) that I'm talking about it, as are many others.
It's almost as if the developers think there is some magic pool of customers out there just waiting to play the game, but they won't jump in just yet. I don't know if that's the case. The proliferation of these types of games is why I think this. Once, Eve had virtually no competition. This isn't the case anymore.
For the most part, the customers they have and have had are it. For this game to remain engaging, those players need to play it. |
A55 Burger
Weiland Yutani Corporation
36
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Posted - 2015.06.19 01:42:30 -
[1655] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
They aren't removing orbit, approach and the like any time soon. This is another example of CCP saying something and people going off the deep end thinking they said something else. The only change happening is the fleet warp nerf as specified in the OP, nothing more. This change simply means you need to use dedicated scouts like we used to, nothing more. All of this talk of having to stagger warps in mixed fleets is nonsense. As is the view this is aimed only at bombers, CCP gave bombers as just one example of a fleet that would need to alter its tactics a bit.
The best way I can articulate why I'm worried is the boiling frogs syndrome. The water just seems... warmer to me... you know?
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16244
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Posted - 2015.06.19 01:47:22 -
[1656] - Quote
A55 Burger wrote:
The best way I can articulate why I'm worried is the boiling frogs syndrome. The water just seems... warmer to me... you know?
As one of those old timers who remembers what it was like before we got all of these fancy fleet broadcasts the water has gone from freezing to just cold. I expect a few other changes such as on grid warping going from 150km to at least 200km and I hope repair broadcasts becoming squad only.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
31926
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Posted - 2015.06.19 01:55:30 -
[1657] - Quote
A55 Burger wrote:The point I'm making Rain, is that you know more about what should change in the game than CCP does. I'm not going to speak as to how much more, because that's between me, you, and the fence post.
This shouldn't be the case. Developers of the game should be able to utilize the vast data collection tools at their disposal, as well as experiences with the game itself at all levels in order to effectively steer it.
This doesn't happen. I've said the same thing in the past. When gameplay is this deep, you begin to lose touch as a developer. At the same time it's odd that EVE has managed to iterate on itself so little.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
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A55 Burger
Weiland Yutani Corporation
36
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Posted - 2015.06.19 01:59:45 -
[1658] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:A55 Burger wrote:The point I'm making Rain, is that you know more about what should change in the game than CCP does. I'm not going to speak as to how much more, because that's between me, you, and the fence post.
This shouldn't be the case. Developers of the game should be able to utilize the vast data collection tools at their disposal, as well as experiences with the game itself at all levels in order to effectively steer it.
This doesn't happen. I've said the same thing in the past. When gameplay is this deep, you begin to lose touch as a developer. At the same time it's odd that EVE has managed to iterate on itself so little.
I agree completely. That's why I feel a change that affects so many boxes of gameplay shouldn't happen. Small tweaks, not sledgehammers. They changed the release cycle so they could do this. |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
240
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Posted - 2015.06.19 02:01:19 -
[1659] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:A55 Burger wrote:The point I'm making Rain, is that you know more about what should change in the game than CCP does. I'm not going to speak as to how much more, because that's between me, you, and the fence post.
This shouldn't be the case. Developers of the game should be able to utilize the vast data collection tools at their disposal, as well as experiences with the game itself at all levels in order to effectively steer it.
This doesn't happen. I've said the same thing in the past. When gameplay is this deep, you begin to lose touch as a developer. At the same time it's odd that EVE has managed to iterate on itself so little.
Larrikin only went from player to developer a few months ago
I doubt he has lost much insight |
A55 Burger
Weiland Yutani Corporation
36
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 02:05:55 -
[1660] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Larrikin only went from player to developer a few months ago
I doubt he has lost much insight
This is helpful, actually. It doesn't change my feelings on the overall direction, but it does make things a little less schizophrenic. Thanks!
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16244
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Posted - 2015.06.19 02:10:55 -
[1661] - Quote
A55 Burger wrote:
I agree completely. That's why I feel a change that affects so many boxes of gameplay shouldn't happen. Small tweaks, not sledgehammers. They changed the release cycle so they could do this.
This is a small change.
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Harry Saq
Blueprint Haus Blades of Grass
86
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 02:14:59 -
[1662] - Quote
While I commented on the hilarity of the intended effect vs the real effect, I must say this change is minor, and part of some bells and whistles that there was a time we never had. When things are too easy it just isn't fun, and dropping an armada right on top of someone at will is probably a bit too easy. |
A55 Burger
Weiland Yutani Corporation
36
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 02:17:46 -
[1663] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:A55 Burger wrote:
I agree completely. That's why I feel a change that affects so many boxes of gameplay shouldn't happen. Small tweaks, not sledgehammers. They changed the release cycle so they could do this.
This is a small change.
I'm not sure what you would define as a big change. Removing all ship movement commands eventually with the exception of go this way, stop, and go really far... that seems like a big change to me. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16244
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Posted - 2015.06.19 02:19:23 -
[1664] - Quote
A55 Burger wrote:
I'm not sure what you would define as a big change. Removing all ship movement commands eventually with the exception of go this way, stop, and go really far... that seems like a big change to me.
Thats not what this change is.
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A55 Burger
Weiland Yutani Corporation
36
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Posted - 2015.06.19 02:21:52 -
[1665] - Quote
Harry Saq wrote:While I commented on the hilarity of the intended effect vs the real effect, I must say this change is minor, and part of some bells and whistles that there was a time we never had. When things are too easy it just isn't fun, and dropping an armada right on top of someone at will is probably a bit too easy.
There's more than one way to skin a cat, even if I agree with you. Approach, keep at range, and orbit don't affect that armada landing all at once though.
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A55 Burger
Weiland Yutani Corporation
36
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Posted - 2015.06.19 02:25:16 -
[1666] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:A55 Burger wrote:
I'm not sure what you would define as a big change. Removing all ship movement commands eventually with the exception of go this way, stop, and go really far... that seems like a big change to me.
Thats not what this change is.
This change is a part of a set, envisioned to improve things. The discussion was about the set when I started posting in the thread. While you are correct that the beginning of the thread addressed only the fleet warp changes, I and others, including you have talked about the set. Conversations are fluid.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16244
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Posted - 2015.06.19 02:30:09 -
[1667] - Quote
A55 Burger wrote:baltec1 wrote:A55 Burger wrote:
I'm not sure what you would define as a big change. Removing all ship movement commands eventually with the exception of go this way, stop, and go really far... that seems like a big change to me.
Thats not what this change is. This change is a part of a set, envisioned to improve things. The discussion was about the set when I started posting in the thread. While you are correct that the beginning of the thread addressed only the fleet warp changes, I and others, including you have talked about the set. Conversations are fluid.
This thread is just about this one change when those other changes come, if they ever do, we can kick up a stink about them then. Right now there are no plans to get rid of orbit as they have nothing to replace it.
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Harry Saq
Blueprint Haus Blades of Grass
86
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 02:30:42 -
[1668] - Quote
A55 Burger wrote:baltec1 wrote:A55 Burger wrote:
I'm not sure what you would define as a big change. Removing all ship movement commands eventually with the exception of go this way, stop, and go really far... that seems like a big change to me.
Thats not what this change is. This change is a part of a set, envisioned to improve things. The discussion was about the set when I started posting in the thread. While you are correct that the beginning of the thread addressed only the fleet warp changes, I and others, including you have talked about the set. Conversations are fluid.
For those of us too lazy to read all 80 some odd pages, where is this "greater change" source material coming from? I have been RL busy and seemed to have missed that twist (though I have to say, I rather like the idea, anything that makes piloting the ship more directly makes me happy, remember, the change effects us all, so it's not like the other fleet won't be any less unwieldy in their maneuvering). |
A55 Burger
Weiland Yutani Corporation
36
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 02:32:42 -
[1669] - Quote
^^^ http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3a8pss/recording_of_ccp_fleet_warp_meeting_with_wormhole/
baltec1 wrote:A55 Burger wrote:baltec1 wrote:A55 Burger wrote:
I'm not sure what you would define as a big change. Removing all ship movement commands eventually with the exception of go this way, stop, and go really far... that seems like a big change to me.
Thats not what this change is. This change is a part of a set, envisioned to improve things. The discussion was about the set when I started posting in the thread. While you are correct that the beginning of the thread addressed only the fleet warp changes, I and others, including you have talked about the set. Conversations are fluid. This thread is just about this one change when those other changes come, if they ever do, we can kick up a stink about them then. Right now there are no plans to get rid of orbit as they have nothing to replace it.
That's not how I read "CCP Larrikin: I agree, I want anchoring taken out of the game. " |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16244
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Posted - 2015.06.19 02:42:16 -
[1670] - Quote
A55 Burger wrote:
That's not how I read "CCP Larrikin: I agree, I want anchoring taken out of the game. "
Perhaps my reading of this is askew, but orbit, approach, and keep at range are all methods to anchor. There's no anchor command, so....
Saying he would like it gone does not mean it is going to happen. Its something he would like to happen, he did not say it is going to happen.
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A55 Burger
Weiland Yutani Corporation
38
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Posted - 2015.06.19 02:42:43 -
[1671] - Quote
Baltec is right in principle though, it isn't strictly on topic, and I'm going to give it a rest on those matters so that I'm not derailing things any more. I just don't feel that there will be a sufficient time for discussion when the rest of this stuff becomes apparent. I also probably won't invest much more until CCP backs away from the ledge. |
Midnight Hope
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
178
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Posted - 2015.06.19 04:06:56 -
[1672] - Quote
You could have every member play a minigame when they activate warp...like hacking. Two outcomes:
- if they get it right, then Aura says "Warp Drive Active" - if they fail Aura says "Thank you for your participation, keep trying", while half the fleet warps off.
See? Keyword *participation*. |
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
2239
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Posted - 2015.06.19 06:23:20 -
[1673] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Zappity wrote: To tackle? Lol
Why not? We use just as flimsy interceptors, t1 frigates and Ewar frigs. "Just as flimsy"? You have got to be kidding. Covops are PAPER thin and clearly not designed for tackle. Interceptors are designed specifically for tackle.
But perhaps you are confused. After all, you seem to think interceptors are for scanning, too.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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beakerax
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
167
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Posted - 2015.06.19 07:13:09 -
[1674] - Quote
Late to the posting party, but setting up or participating in a well-executed punt is just about the most fun I have had in pvp and if it gets removed because of [reason not found] that's a damn shame. |
Faren Shalni
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
148
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Posted - 2015.06.19 08:01:36 -
[1675] - Quote
A55 Burger wrote:^^^ http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3a8pss/recording_of_ccp_fleet_warp_meeting_with_wormhole/ baltec1 wrote:A55 Burger wrote:baltec1 wrote:A55 Burger wrote:
I'm not sure what you would define as a big change. Removing all ship movement commands eventually with the exception of go this way, stop, and go really far... that seems like a big change to me.
Thats not what this change is. This change is a part of a set, envisioned to improve things. The discussion was about the set when I started posting in the thread. While you are correct that the beginning of the thread addressed only the fleet warp changes, I and others, including you have talked about the set. Conversations are fluid. This thread is just about this one change when those other changes come, if they ever do, we can kick up a stink about them then. Right now there are no plans to get rid of orbit as they have nothing to replace it. That's not how I read "CCP Larrikin: I agree, I want anchoring taken out of the game. " Perhaps my reading of this is askew, but orbit, approach, and keep at range are all methods to anchor. There's no anchor command, so....
Context is really important you know. This was part of the things he would like to do but not necessarily able to do.
So Much Space
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Tau Onyeka
Krusual Syndicate
4
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Posted - 2015.06.19 08:27:40 -
[1676] - Quote
This change a logical next step from the change to drone assignment: less zombie fleets, less F1 fleet cattle. I can see why so many people rage about it
I'm all for it. |
Awkward Pi Duolus
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
91
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Posted - 2015.06.19 08:34:34 -
[1677] - Quote
Tau Onyeka wrote:This change a logical next step from the change to drone assignment: less zombie fleets, less F1 fleet cattle. I can see why so many people rage about it I'm all for it.
How does it ensure less "F1 fleet cattle"? The alt you will land on will very probably be the FC's, as it is now.
Only guaranteed change is "F1 fleet cattle" going from bored to slightly more bored.
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Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
257
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Posted - 2015.06.19 08:42:29 -
[1678] - Quote
Midnight Hope wrote:You could have every member play a minigame when they activate warp...like hacking. Two outcomes: - if they get it right, then Aura says "Warp Drive Active" - if they fail Aura says "Thank you for your participation, keep trying", while half the fleet warps off. See? Keyword *participation*. Honestly if they want to remove fleet warp then yea im all for this. Should apply to all warps though, so even warping about solo you should be forced into this mini-game. Want to leave Jita, play mini-game, if you fail, you get to sit where you are on the Jita undock. Should also apply it to jumping gates, passing through wormholes, activating guns, active tanking mods, etc. Eve would be the most interactive game EVER. |
Tau Onyeka
Krusual Syndicate
5
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Posted - 2015.06.19 08:47:53 -
[1679] - Quote
Awkward Pi Duolus wrote:Tau Onyeka wrote:This change a logical next step from the change to drone assignment: less zombie fleets, less F1 fleet cattle. I can see why so many people rage about it I'm all for it. How does it ensure less "F1 fleet cattle"? The alt you will land on will very probably be the FC's, as it is now. Only guaranteed change is "F1 fleet cattle" going from bored to slightly more bored.
less ability for an FC to control it all = more requirements on the fleet to be active and prepared => less viability for non-effort cattle fleets who's only effort was to actually log in and do as they're told.
That whole sound cloud is nothing but this:
"CCP, this change that you're proposing has a side effect, it's hurting our fleet backbone"
"well, yeah"
"that can't possibly be the reason to do it, are you going to change or compensate for that?
"err, no"
"Y U DO DIS!"
"because we want to nerf your lol fleets :reasons:"
"YOU'RE SO STUPID!"
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Lim Hiaret
Hiaret Family
1
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Posted - 2015.06.19 09:55:08 -
[1680] - Quote
Suggestion for the removal of the fleet warp mechanic:
- Fully remove fleet warp mechanic! If a group wants to warp to a certain spot together all have to click warp in a synchronized way (for example 3 GǪ 2 GǪ 1 GǪ warp).
- To allow a fleet to arrive all at the same time, which is important for fleet tactics, allow users to set warp speed to a value less than the ship max warp speed.
- To allow a fleet to warp to the same spot, add a broadcast warp to coordinates. Available for ANY coordinates the broadcaster has.
Additional ideas: Add an on-screen countdown timer initiated by FC. Add a nice big green arrow which points towards the broadcasted coordinates. Explore the possibility to overheat the warp drive.
The protection of sniper fleets is a totally different issue and should not be tackled this way. For that a new bubble for interdictors that greatly increases the scan deviation for ships and objects inside. High-skilled probers should still be able to get a warp in, but even with pre-positioned probes generally not on first try. The bubble should be time limited of course, same time as the existing ones. The analogy to an existing mechanic is of course interdictor probes vs. mobile warp disruptor field.
p.s.: not sure if that is still the right place to post this |
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