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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Ralen Zateki
Delusions of Adequacy Get Off My Lawn
181
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Posted - 2015.06.12 11:36:33 -
[631] - Quote
In general I stay pretty open minded about change in this game... and in general I've been able to get behind the significant changes Sov, etc.
But this one... ugh.
A few thoughts:
1. I understand what you are trying to do by getting more involvement in individual fleet comps/ members. And I'm sure it sounds great in a brainstorming session. But in practice this is going to be a disorganized mess for fleets that aren't composed of seasoned vets. And most peeps are not seasoned vets. As an FC, it's hard enough to get people to read pings, get in the right ship, not lemming, shoot the primary, etc. etc. FC-ing can be a game of herding cats. This just adds one more significant layer to that and will likely just make it a hassle for FCs to deal with rather than act as any kind of real inspiring game play. I mean... have the people that came up with this idea ever actually run a fleet?
2. This change feels rushed and feels like an afterthought. Like, you were sitting around last week brainstorming, worked yourselves into a lather about this idea, and started pushing it out the door. Not exactly consistent with your track record of late of announcing changes well in advance and at least prep-ing peeps, etc.
3. There are some practical scenarios that I think you need to think through:
- Warping to gates or warping fleet to gain tactical advantage at celestials/ pos-es/ stations/ etc. without warping into a bubble or a death star or a brawling fleet of doom. Sure, I could use skilled & prepared inty pilots or I could use an alt with combat probes and drop www's in fleet. But likely any fleet with inexperienced members is going to result in a piece meal/ disorganized mess. Not exactly fun. And when you do land at a perch above a gate and wait for the stragglers and then anchor up what then? Do it again on grid? Rinse and repeat (especially against kitey doctrines that will likely just pick off straggler after straggler.
- I suppose you think that over time people will start getting into smaller gangs/ smaller fleets that are easier to control and that are less susceptible to the results of this change. But I think the truth is - at least in the interim which could be quite a while - you're going to lose people who want to FC and members who want to fleet up because it's more hassle than fun.
4. How 'bout you get Fozzie sov implemented in it's entirety - including the time zone scaling - before you start messing with other mechanics? I'm sure you have different teams working on different things and think it's a separate issue from your point of view. But from a member point of view it screams "we haven't implemented what we said we were going to implement with Fozzie Sov but here's a new change for you..." Not a very good perception tbh.
By all means... tilt the field toward more small gang action. We need more small gang stuff. Keep working to break up the power blocs if you think that's a healthy change. But use game mechanics that are actually fun rather than beat FCs in the head with a stick. And I also don't think attempting to completely eliminate large fleet battles is very wise. I mean... you did get a spike in subscriptions after B-R right? |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16138
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 11:37:54 -
[632] - Quote
afkalt wrote:baltec1 wrote:Wolf Crownn wrote:...
In conclusion, it's more of a bad idea than it is good. Only for people why rely upon the FC to do everything for their fleet. You're better than that Baltec - I cannot control the warp speeds in a mixed comp without a fleet warp. That's a pretty big deal and no amount of command and control delegation can fix that. Not everyone has the bodies to put a pre-places ship at EVERY warp, and even if they did, it's a ****** crutch to an unnecessary problem. It's a mechanic which was pretty essential to keep fleets as one that's taken a huge collateral swipe.
It returns us to what it used to be like and its how our corp has always done things. We are very excited by this change and feel that even more nerfs should happen to the fleet system.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Ralen Zateki
Delusions of Adequacy Get Off My Lawn
181
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Posted - 2015.06.12 11:39:33 -
[633] - Quote
Double post. |
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
300
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 11:40:00 -
[634] - Quote
Cross-posting what I believe would be a good compromise in this matter
Basically, the idea is to introduce a delay or "spool up" (say 5-15 seconds or so) - similar to micro jump drives - to group warping depending on the size of the group (fleet warping takes comparatively long to squad and wing warps). Add to that, there would be a prominent visual effect in order to help opponents react to an imminent group warp.
Pros:
- Individual warping/piloting will be much faster and more effective, thus "more individual fleet member participation" would likely be achieved
- There would be very relevant downsides to group warps:
The visual effect would warn a kiting / sniping fleet of an incoming fleet. If a fleet was preparing to leave the scene via fleet warp, the opposing group could spread points and/or warp a dictor on top of them to keep them on the grid. An FC couldn't just insta-save his entire fleet without other pilots' involvement
- Last, but not least, the gazillion other (legitimate) use cases for group warps wouldn't be completely screwed.
Questions:
- Would the visual effect show on a cloaked fleet?
- Would ships align during spool up or after?
Bombers, apparently one the primary reasons for the planned changes, would need a sensible rebalancing effort at the same time. This goes without saying, the details, however, belong in another discussion. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1368
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 11:41:28 -
[635] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:afkalt wrote:baltec1 wrote:Wolf Crownn wrote:...
In conclusion, it's more of a bad idea than it is good. Only for people why rely upon the FC to do everything for their fleet. You're better than that Baltec - I cannot control the warp speeds in a mixed comp without a fleet warp. That's a pretty big deal and no amount of command and control delegation can fix that. Not everyone has the bodies to put a pre-places ship at EVERY warp, and even if they did, it's a ****** crutch to an unnecessary problem. It's a mechanic which was pretty essential to keep fleets as one that's taken a huge collateral swipe. It returns us to what it used to be like and its how our corp has always done things. We are very excited by this change and feel that even more nerfs should happen to the fleet system.
Yes but back in the dayGäó ship warp differences were essentially negligible. This is no longer the case.
Moving mixed compositions becomes a chore. To what gain? Why the heck should I need to put a preliminary ship out somewhere JUST to make sure the mixed fleet doesn't land minutes apart, or have stragglers waiting on grid to initiate a late warp?
It's broken. |
Ralen Zateki
Delusions of Adequacy Get Off My Lawn
181
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 11:44:28 -
[636] - Quote
Ab'del Abu wrote:Cross-posting what I believe would be a good compromise in this matterBasically, the idea is to introduce a delay or "spool up" (say 5-15 seconds or so) - similar to micro jump drives - to group warping depending on the size of the group (fleet warping takes comparatively long to squad and wing warps). Add to that, there would be a prominent visual effect in order to help opponents react to an imminent group warp. Pros:
- Individual warping/piloting will be much faster and more effective, thus "more individual fleet member participation" would likely be achieved
- There would be very relevant downsides to group warps:
The visual effect would warn a kiting / sniping fleet of an incoming fleet. If a fleet was preparing to leave the scene via fleet warp, the opposing group could spread points and/or warp a dictor on top of them to keep them on the grid. An FC couldn't just insta-save his entire fleet without other pilots' involvement
- Last, but not least, the gazillion other (legitimate) use cases for group warps wouldn't be completely screwed.
Questions:
- Would the visual effect show on a cloaked fleet?
- Would ships align during spool up or after?
Bombers, apparently one the primary reasons for the planned changes, would need a sensible rebalancing effort at the same time. This goes without saying, the details, however, belong in another discussion.
It's already in. It's called 'aligning.' If I'm FC-ing a small gang I fleet warp fast. If I'm FC-ing a large/ heavier doctrine I have to wait longer for the lemmings to align.
Ugh... the thing that bothers me the most about this is that it very much feels like and afterthought type change and we're going to have a bunch of people - including CCP - making judgments about the effect that haven't FC-ed a damn thing. |
Inggroth
Aurora Ominae. The Gorgon Empire
45
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Posted - 2015.06.12 11:47:55 -
[637] - Quote
Manfred Sideous wrote:+1 this is a excellent change that will help to open up combat/fleet tactics. I supported and pushed hard for this. Putting you first on my ballot wasnt wrong I'm a bit biased because i dont care about wormholes other than for travel, but this change seems to have way more upsides than downsides in my opinion.
Now CCP, do something about offgrid boosting and i'm one happy customer |
l0rd carlos
TURN LEFT The Camel Empire
1230
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 11:50:29 -
[638] - Quote
Ab'del Abu wrote:Cross-posting what I believe would be a good compromise in this matterBasically, the idea is to introduce a delay or "spool up" (say 5-15 seconds or so) - similar to micro jump drives - to group warping depending on the size of the group (fleet warping takes comparatively long to squad and wing warps). Add to that, there would be a prominent visual effect in order to help opponents react to an imminent group warp. Pros:
- Individual warping/piloting will be much faster and more effective, thus "more individual fleet member participation" would likely be achieved
- There would be very relevant downsides to group warps:
The visual effect would warn a kiting / sniping fleet of an incoming fleet. If a fleet was preparing to leave the scene via fleet warp, the opposing group could spread points and/or warp a dictor on top of them to keep them on the grid. An FC couldn't just insta-save his entire fleet without other pilots' involvement
- Last, but not least, the gazillion other (legitimate) use cases for group warps wouldn't be completely screwed.
.
I wanted to post that here :P I like it.
- It will keep the core of what ccp wants (more grunt interaction)
- It's more streamlined, unlike the CCP version with a lot of exceptions. You can fleetwarp anywhere you can also solo warp. It just takes more time.
- CCPs idea is a bit more complex without any more depth. Even more so if you add more exception later on like WH signatures etc.
- People who think for themself will benefit greatly!
CCP please. This is more simple, better for what you want to archive and looks visually cool.
German blog about smallscale lowsec pvp: http://friendsofharassment.wordpress.com
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16139
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 11:51:25 -
[639] - Quote
afkalt wrote:
Yes but back in the dayGäó ship warp differences were essentially negligible. This is no longer the case.
Moving mixed compositions becomes a chore. To what gain? Why the heck should I need to put a preliminary ship out somewhere JUST to make sure the mixed fleet doesn't land minutes apart, or have stragglers waiting on grid to initiate a late warp?
It's broken.
You can still warp the fleet to a player.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Airi Cho
Dark-Rising
94
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Posted - 2015.06.12 11:52:11 -
[640] - Quote
Onslaughtor wrote:So I haven't really been able to play recently. :( so I cant really test this. But can you warp to missions at range without useing a fleetwarp? I am recalling you can't.
you can. you just have to start warping. cancel warp then warp to fleet member. |
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Leeluvv
Maas Industries
6
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Posted - 2015.06.12 11:52:45 -
[641] - Quote
Welcome to Bookmarks Online, the new game where you make a spy that deletes Corp bookmarks, so the Fleet he isn't even in can no longer warp to its destination.
What problem is this change trying to fix, as it strikes me that this is someone's personal vendetta and not a strategic decision for the future of the game, as well as being the stupidest thing I've seen from CCP in along time? The consequences haven't been thought through, which implies it is a knee-jerk reaction and not the results of planning and debate. |
Capqu
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1125
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 11:57:50 -
[642] - Quote
bombers aren't really that affected tbh, except the no brained warp fleet from 4 perches @ 42km style of bombing
we already used wrecks/alts for 90% of our squad warps
this wrecks small entities moving titans/supers tho
because that was super easy before right
as for fleet fights its not going to change anything just make the fc have another alt
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
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Capqu
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1125
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 11:58:36 -
[643] - Quote
Capqu wrote:bombers aren't really that affected tbh, except the no brained warp fleet from 4 perches @ 42km style of bombing
we already used wrecks/alts for 90% of our squad warps
this wrecks small entities moving titans/supers tho
because that was super easy before right
as for fleet fights its not going to change anything just make the fc have another alt
oh and rip warping fleets to the sun @ 0 for fun
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
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Don Pera Saissore
45
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Posted - 2015.06.12 12:01:53 -
[644] - Quote
Junior FC for Spectre fleet here. NPSI fleets have a lot of newbros participating and they have to rely on the fc to keep them safe in some situations. Lets say im engaging a fleet and something else lands on the grid that i cant fight i have to quickly extract and get my fleet members to relative safety. After this update i will have to tell them to keep bouncing celestials until i land on my safespot and then order them o regroup on me. Newbros will get picked off on the sun. Jayne plz reconsider this you know how hard it is to manage a fleet full of newbros. |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
89
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 12:03:19 -
[645] - Quote
Manfred Sideous wrote:Long Muppet wrote:Manfred Sideous wrote: To put this into context drone assign was largely removed as we know it. CCP said that they think it is bad when other people play the game for you.
This is a great point Manny! Maybe, just like with drone assign we should allow squad commanders to fleet warp their 10 people. This ensures you are still taking a nerfbat to the ridiculously huge nullsec fleets while not simultaneously killing small gangs. I get that having a scout in a large fleet isn't a big deal as they generally have many of them, but requiring a small gang to now dedicate one of their pilots as scout is unnecessary and ruins game play. Finding a middle ground (just as we did we drone assign) is the best option. Good suggestion and this is the exact reason CCP asks for feedback in these threads This option is something I was thinking of myself. It would break down a large fleet into small ten man gangs if they want to maneuver around more precisely to tactical bookmarks and probe results.
It would have the desired effect of making large fleets more difficult for one person to control, but at the same time leaving small gangs and fleets who are organised with their squad commanders unaffected. |
l0rd carlos
TURN LEFT The Camel Empire
1231
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 12:07:01 -
[646] - Quote
Don Pera Saissore wrote:Junior FC for Spectre fleet here. NPSI fleets have a lot of newbros participating and they have to rely on the fc to keep them safe in some situations. Lets say im engaging a fleet and something else lands on the grid that i cant fight i have to quickly extract and get my fleet members to relative safety. After this update i will have to tell them to keep bouncing celestials until i land on my safespot and then order them o regroup on me. Newbros will get picked off on the sun. Jayne plz reconsider this you know how hard it is to manage a fleet full of newbros.
Or you could fleet warp them to celestials until a not new bro is on a save spot.
German blog about smallscale lowsec pvp: http://friendsofharassment.wordpress.com
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
90
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 12:07:03 -
[647] - Quote
l0rd carlos wrote:Ab'del Abu wrote:Cross-posting what I believe would be a good compromise in this matterBasically, the idea is to introduce a delay or "spool up" (say 5-15 seconds or so) - similar to micro jump drives - to group warping depending on the size of the group (fleet warping takes comparatively long to squad and wing warps). Add to that, there would be a prominent visual effect in order to help opponents react to an imminent group warp. Pros:
- Individual warping/piloting will be much faster and more effective, thus "more individual fleet member participation" would likely be achieved
- There would be very relevant downsides to group warps:
The visual effect would warn a kiting / sniping fleet of an incoming fleet. If a fleet was preparing to leave the scene via fleet warp, the opposing group could spread points and/or warp a dictor on top of them to keep them on the grid. An FC couldn't just insta-save his entire fleet without other pilots' involvement
- Last, but not least, the gazillion other (legitimate) use cases for group warps wouldn't be completely screwed.
. I wanted to post that here :P I like it.
- It will keep the core of what ccp wants (more grunt interaction)
- It's more streamlined, unlike the CCP version with a lot of exceptions. You can fleetwarp anywhere you can also solo warp. It just takes more time.
- CCPs idea is a bit more complex without any more depth. Even more so if you add more exception later on like WH signatures etc.
- People who think for themself will benefit greatly!
CCP please. This is more simple, better for what you want to archive and looks visually cool. Another good suggestion. ^ |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1368
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 12:10:18 -
[648] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:afkalt wrote:
Yes but back in the dayGäó ship warp differences were essentially negligible. This is no longer the case.
Moving mixed compositions becomes a chore. To what gain? Why the heck should I need to put a preliminary ship out somewhere JUST to make sure the mixed fleet doesn't land minutes apart, or have stragglers waiting on grid to initiate a late warp?
It's broken.
You can still warp the fleet to a player.
I know, that was why I said I now HAVE to use a preliminary player to do the massively tactical manoeuvre of warping to a corp BM and waiting.
What on earth is the point in that? It's an useless pain in the ass.
It adds NOTHING but pointless delays and the need for another alt. |
Bobmon
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
139
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Posted - 2015.06.12 12:11:06 -
[649] - Quote
I like it! screw fleet warping, Its boring not to control your own ship and it's not going to have a massive effect on things, like people are scared about.
I mean for bomber fleets, Ok you just have an cloaky alt at the spot you wanted to warp too and if its a specifc location then you just tell your guys to bookmark the spot.
For WH stuff or sites, you simply scan down the sites with an alt, Like you would currently, then if its dangerous, you just put that alt in its pod, warp the site (sleepers etc. dont aggro the pod anyway) and you just warp yourself to that char.
All and all it brings back a little skill in terms of how/when to engage and I like it!
CCP Larrikin (and the team), you are a true bro of bro's, The hero that we deserve
GÖ¢GÖ¢Bobmon for CSM10
@BobmonEve
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16139
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 12:14:39 -
[650] - Quote
afkalt wrote:baltec1 wrote:afkalt wrote:
Yes but back in the dayGäó ship warp differences were essentially negligible. This is no longer the case.
Moving mixed compositions becomes a chore. To what gain? Why the heck should I need to put a preliminary ship out somewhere JUST to make sure the mixed fleet doesn't land minutes apart, or have stragglers waiting on grid to initiate a late warp?
It's broken.
You can still warp the fleet to a player. I know, that was why I said I now HAVE to use a preliminary player to do the massively tactical manoeuvre of warping to a corp BM and waiting. What on earth is the point in that? It's an useless pain in the ass. It adds NOTHING but pointless delays and the need for another alt.
It adds gameplay to that preliminary player.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc. Official Winners Of Takeshi's Castle
171
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 12:17:02 -
[651] - Quote
Sasha Sen wrote:Zappity wrote:Seems that this is actually reducing the specialised role of a prober rather than increasing it. I currently use a dedicated prober in a covops (you know, a probing ship) and they warp my cruiser onto targets. If the prober has to tackle then the fit will have to be enormously gimped. And why? That's the whole point of them - to probe, not to tackle. I am really confused, trying really hard to see why this is bad for you. You have a prober - check You got lock on a sig - check You warp your cov ops to the sig - check You warp with your combat ship to your scanner - check What am I missing? What are you missing? This : You see targets warping to safety on the covert ops alt because they saw your probes. You catch nothing and get no content.
No local in null sec would fix everything!
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1368
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 12:17:27 -
[652] - Quote
That's clutching at straws and you know it. |
Torgeir Hekard
I MYSELF AND ME
158
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Posted - 2015.06.12 12:19:17 -
[653] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:It adds gameplay to that preliminary player. Uhh. Yeeah. Right. The same way offgrind links add gameplay to the links pilot. Been there, done that. |
unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc. Official Winners Of Takeshi's Castle
171
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Posted - 2015.06.12 12:19:40 -
[654] - Quote
Querns wrote: You need to be a large wormhole group to afford interceptors?
Interceptors are useless since the targets already warped away after seeing your probes.
No local in null sec would fix everything!
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16139
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 12:20:32 -
[655] - Quote
afkalt wrote:That's clutching at straws and you know it.
Our frigate pilots just got an important fleet role handed to them.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
486
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 12:21:06 -
[656] - Quote
All except when it's just me and my alt - I will seriously miss having the fleet warp function.
Bad change - won't provide any meaningful content or interaction, just more problems.
BadAssMcKill wrote:Have you considered making the game more fun for a change
I am a pod pilot:
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1066
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Posted - 2015.06.12 12:21:22 -
[657] - Quote
Torgeir Hekard wrote:baltec1 wrote:It adds gameplay to that preliminary player. Uhh. Yeeah. Right. The same way offgrind links add gameplay to the links pilot. Been there, done that.
Baltec, I never knew you to be in favor of adding terrible game play. Acting as a bookmark is not good game play.
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
So, why do I continue to provide feedback on these forums?
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5813975#post5813975
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16139
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Posted - 2015.06.12 12:22:37 -
[658] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote:Querns wrote: You need to be a large wormhole group to afford interceptors?
Interceptors are useless since the targets already warped away after seeing your probes.
We already use probes to get warp in on these fleets, there is zero difference between what we have now and the future in terms of fleets running when they see probes
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2493
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 12:23:41 -
[659] - Quote
Tara Read wrote:Rowells wrote:Tara Read wrote:Thanks for the compliment even if you meant it as an off the cuff insult. But see here's the disconnect. The reality is people fill many facets and roles in Alliances. In smaller Alliances these roles pass down to a few select people. Placing more burden on these people creates burn out and headaches that in turn create problems. The problem may then lie in the 'few select people' issue. No gameplay mechanic forces that. And certainly an FC telling his interceptor to move for a warp in isnt adding any more stress than having to run it himself. In a small alliance and even a corp, sometimes its best to trust some basic tasks to others.Heck, they could do that now and would be the better for it in terms of pressure. However, I see fairly little what this has to do with alliance leadership and roles. Unless your few FCs double double as officers and directors. You still fail to give any of us here a positive answer why these changes are GOOD. Picking apart my posts is fine, but trying to tear at my argument from one angle isn't going to get you anywhere. There's also the issue of grid placement, targets getting away, fleet separation due to warp speed variations, survivability of the on grid warp in, landing on different grids due to mechanic issues, fleet movement during travel, squad warping at missions at range due to beacon issues, probing and tackle becoming nigh impossible for hunting low sec supers, designated "tackle" and possible fleet warp in DC'ing in Tidi leading to a fleet spread and out of place etc etc. I can go on and keep giving reasons and possible issues with just one facet of these changes. But please go on about how it's clearly my misunderstanding or "lack of game skills" or my "alliances leadership" as your means for justification as to why your argument is valid. I keep picking be ause you dont seem to understand that a lot of the negatives you bring up are almost completely separate issues.
I already gave you the reason its good. More people with more meaningful things to do. And you keep trying to bring up reasons why giving players meaningful tasks and importance is bad for them. When its entirely unrelated problems. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16139
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 12:24:19 -
[660] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Torgeir Hekard wrote:baltec1 wrote:It adds gameplay to that preliminary player. Uhh. Yeeah. Right. The same way offgrind links add gameplay to the links pilot. Been there, done that. Baltec, I never knew you to be in favor of adding terrible game play. Acting as a bookmark is not good game play.
Terrible gameplay is having one person flying 250 semi afk ships. A scout frigate is fun to fly.
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