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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
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CCP Snorlax
C C P C C P Alliance
706
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Posted - 2015.06.11 10:12:58 -
[1] - Quote
In our continuous efforts to improve the quality of the EVE client we are starting to gather more data from the EVE clients when connecting to our test servers, such as Singularity. The next time you log in to Sisi you will see a dialog informing you of this data gathering and asking for your consent. You will have to accept if you want to play on the test servers GÇô if you do not agree, the client will terminate.
What data? We have been gathering performance statistics for a long time, but statistics can only take you so far. From now on we are gathering all warnings and errors that are logged from both the game engine and the higher level game code. Generally we've only seen these logs when running inhouse, with the LogServer attached, or in bug reports filed from you, the players. We're hoping to get a much clearer picture of the state of the client by getting logs from everyone.
Generally we don't log out any sensitive information, certainly no passwords or anything like that, but when logging warnings or errors we sometimes log out the full pathname of files being accessed GÇô if those are stored in your Users folder the user name may be seen in that path. There may be other cases where something that might be considered personally identifiable data will go into those logs.
You can see what sort of data we will get by running the LogServer GÇô anything marked as a Warning or an Error (yellow and red lines) will now be sent to us.
Opting out? There is no opting out GÇô if you don't want us to get this data then don't log in to a test server. Nothing will change on Tranquility, this data gathering only applies to test servers.
We hope you all agree that this is a good thing GÇô we get more information about the state of the client, with less effort from you. We will get those warnings and errors even if you weren't running LogServer, and have a better chance of fixing those hard-to-reproduce bugs that we only see in mass tests.
CCP Snorlax - Software Architect - Team RnB
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Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
2169
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Posted - 2015.06.11 10:29:16 -
[2] - Quote
Good stuff. Testing is kinda the point of Sisi.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Mister Ripley
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
25
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Posted - 2015.06.11 13:33:01 -
[3] - Quote
I agree. Good thing.
Maybe you should indicate more clearly that this is not a replacement for bugreports. So if I discover that something is wrong, it doesn't mean it is automatically recognised as a bug from the logs. Like wrong text, colour, alignment of something, mechanics not working as intended, etc. Otherwise people may tink that they "reported" a bug just by discovering it. |
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CCP Snorlax
C C P C C P Alliance
710
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Posted - 2015.06.11 13:35:08 -
[4] - Quote
Mister Ripley wrote:I agree. Good thing.
Maybe you should indicate more clearly that this is not a replacement for bugreports. So if I discover that something is wrong, it doesn't mean it is automatically recognised as a bug from the logs. Like wrong text, colour, alignment of something, mechanics not working as intended, etc. Otherwise people may tink that they "reported" a bug just by discovering it. Good point - keep filing those bug reports, everyone!
CCP Snorlax - Software Architect - Team RnB
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Nafensoriel
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2
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Posted - 2015.06.11 13:44:51 -
[5] - Quote
I'm more surprised that this wasn't already in effect on sisi.
You also seem to be very worried about offending the privacy minded of us.. In this case however you really don't need to be. Its nice to see but we in no way pay for singularity so we functionally get no say in its operation. Also.. expecting a testing platform to NOT log every nut and bolt is just insane. Bug hunting is already a needle in a haystack job.. use every tool you guys can get your mitts on! |
Mister Ripley
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
25
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Posted - 2015.06.11 13:47:19 -
[6] - Quote
Another thing:
Maybe you should eventually update the status feature in bug reports as promised ?a year? ago. I have bugs closed that are still there and others that are attached (which for me means they are not fixed yet) but fixed... Others are open for almost half a year now, which for me means you don't give a damn... |
Max Kolonko
WATAHA. Unseen Wolves
523
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Posted - 2015.06.11 14:54:40 -
[7] - Quote
In before AT competitors will not be able to train due to not accepting privacy stuff they dont want to share :)
Read and support:
Don't mess with OUR WH's
What is Your stance on WH stuff?
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Bienator II
madmen of the skies
3325
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Posted - 2015.06.11 14:55:35 -
[8] - Quote
Lets hope the logs will show something :)
how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
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Tappits
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
97
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Posted - 2015.06.11 17:55:07 -
[9] - Quote
Max Kolonko wrote:In before AT competitors will not be able to train due to not accepting privacy stuff they dont want to share :)
What like? your name? which ccp all ready have? what about your address? nope they should all ready have that if you have ever paid for your accounts vr CC or Paypal or anything realy... there is nothing any one should need to keep secret tbh. |
Maxiuss 3
Exanimo Inc Gentlemen's.Club
0
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Posted - 2015.06.12 03:44:03 -
[10] - Quote
wWhen it say's 3 RD party's, that gives me GREAT CONCERN. IE data breaks are ramped, so when your giving this data about users its a back door to my DATA iE sever address ect accounts. I trust EVE but not undisclosed #r3d Party's. Please explain those third party's exactly, to whom are you selling my info to?
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Maxiuss 3
Exanimo Inc Gentlemen's.Club
0
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Posted - 2015.06.12 04:03:30 -
[11] - Quote
Ive lost billions in org BPS, I really don't want to hear any thing about log server logs, for instance I have absolute screen shots of me in diff space with alts and died at different gate per gate camp. lost billions on that along with org blue prints that cant be found in cans that disappeared idk. kind of why I don't play much any more. please check my accounts ccp, by the way your recent changes have left some vets non subscribers. seems like dust is your new way of thinking, INDIA is all over the news, the home of intel, it wont be long till they take over games like yours, steam will die to. its the people you have now and lost ccp, long time players love the game they hate the ******* you have been dishing out so they quit.I hope that's not your intent because your tract says so. And at the end you will get nothing but new players that TRY THIS LIFE for 20 hours and then quit, I am one of those 1800 coder's check news.
When running on test servers, the EVE Online client gathers data that is used to help us improve the quality and performance of the client.
This data may include personally identifiable information and be transmitted to, processed and/or stored on 3rd party servers as well as on CCP's network.
Do you agree to send us your data? If you do not agree, the client will terminate.m sure your records can repeat this fact if not please contact me ill give yea the truth, ie server pay |
Maxiuss 3
Exanimo Inc Gentlemen's.Club
0
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Posted - 2015.06.12 04:08:32 -
[12] - Quote
Tappits wrote:Max Kolonko wrote:In before AT competitors will not be able to train due to not accepting privacy stuff they dont want to share :) What like? your name? which ccp all ready have? what about your address? nope they should all ready have that if you have ever paid for your accounts vr CC or Paypal or anything realy... there is nothing any one should need to keep secret tbh.
what you don't know is that: your info by accepting is being sold period: its an issue of commerce, selling info to 3rd partys is not I repeat not part of the curraent ULA read IT FOLKS |
Tappits
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
101
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Posted - 2015.06.12 07:39:19 -
[13] - Quote
Maxiuss 3 wrote:Tappits wrote:Max Kolonko wrote:In before AT competitors will not be able to train due to not accepting privacy stuff they dont want to share :) What like? your name? which ccp all ready have? what about your address? nope they should all ready have that if you have ever paid for your accounts vr CC or Paypal or anything realy... there is nothing any one should need to keep secret tbh. what you don't know is that: your info by accepting is being sold period: its an issue of commerce, selling info to 3rd partys is not I repeat not part of the curraent ULA read IT FOLKS
Don't care, its not like getting info on my name address and telephone number is hard in 2015 and if people are paying for it there dumb. |
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CCP Snorlax
C C P C C P Alliance
713
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Posted - 2015.06.12 10:20:21 -
[14] - Quote
Maxiuss 3 wrote:wWhen it say's 3 RD party's, that gives me GREAT CONCERN. IE data breaks are ramped, so when your giving this data about users its a back door to my DATA iE sever address ect accounts. I trust EVE but not undisclosed #r3d Party's. Please explain those third party's exactly, to whom are you selling my info to?
We're not selling any info, we are using an external service to gather the logs and using their tools for analysis.
CCP Snorlax - Software Architect - Team RnB
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Max Kolonko
WATAHA. Unseen Wolves
523
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Posted - 2015.06.12 11:25:29 -
[15] - Quote
Tappits wrote:Max Kolonko wrote:In before AT competitors will not be able to train due to not accepting privacy stuff they dont want to share :) What like? your name? which ccp all ready have? what about your address? nope they should all ready have that if you have ever paid for your accounts vr CC or Paypal or anything realy... there is nothing any one should need to keep secret tbh.
I know, but security freaks are out there :)
Read and support:
Don't mess with OUR WH's
What is Your stance on WH stuff?
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Moonlit Raid
State War Academy Caldari State
249
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Posted - 2015.06.12 20:18:28 -
[16] - Quote
Is there a complete list of all parameters that could possibly be logged anywhere? Before I accept a sweeping statement of allowing "some personal data" I like to know what is included.
File paths, hardware configuration, cpu load, framerate, driver versions, that kinda thing, perfectly ok with.
Other running processes, indiscriminate capturing of RAM segments, very very not ok with.
If brute force isn't working, you're just not using enough.
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Wadiest Yong
Porcus Volans Sev3rance
9
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Posted - 2015.06.12 20:31:47 -
[17] - Quote
The almost casual way in which you announce that potentially sensitive and identifiable data will be sent to undisclosed third parties gives a lot to think about. Well, not really.
Outsourcing services to externals is okay if we are able to hold them and you accountable, but not in the way you're implementing this. At least microsoft gives us the option to NOT upload a bug report with local data, and they don't keep an open and uncontrollable line when using their product for "collecting data" purposes. The question is, who needs the test server and the data the most and at what cost for us customers. |
Phoenix Jones
Isogen 5
1397
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Posted - 2015.06.13 20:17:46 -
[18] - Quote
Wadiest Yong wrote:The almost casual way in which you announce that potentially sensitive and identifiable data will be sent to undisclosed third parties gives a lot to think about. Well, not really.
Outsourcing services to externals is okay if we are able to hold them and you accountable, but not in the way you're implementing this. At least microsoft gives us the option to NOT upload a bug report with local data, and they don't keep an open and uncontrollable line when using their product for "collecting data" purposes. The question is, who needs the test server and the data the most and at what cost for us customers.
No one is forcing you to login to the test server and submit yourself to the logging process.
If you don't like or agree with it, don't log into the test server.
That is all.
Yaay!!!!
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Sgt Ocker
Burning Sky Labs
542
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Posted - 2015.06.14 12:23:34 -
[19] - Quote
CCP Snorlax wrote:Maxiuss 3 wrote:wWhen it say's 3 RD party's, that gives me GREAT CONCERN. IE data breaks are ramped, so when your giving this data about users its a back door to my DATA iE sever address ect accounts. I trust EVE but not undisclosed #r3d Party's. Please explain those third party's exactly, to whom are you selling my info to?
We're not selling any info, we are using an external service to gather the logs and using their tools for analysis. But according to the little blurb at the top of the thread, There may be other cases where something that might be considered personally identifiable data will go into those logs.
If you allow Eve to install in its default locations, it installs folders to your Users folder. If the scans include that folder and as you state, something personally identifiable may be included, what exactly is it that "might" be included?
Your not 'selling" our information, your paying someone to collect it.
Will CCP be responsible for any misuse of information collected by the 3rd party or is the strict need for the waiver CCP's legal "out" in case of wrong doing?
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
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d0cTeR9
Astro Technologies SpaceMonkey's Alliance
184
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Posted - 2015.06.15 19:25:25 -
[20] - Quote
This is ONLY for the Test Server.
Not happy? DON'T use it.
That simple. |
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Moonlit Raid
State War Academy Caldari State
252
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Posted - 2015.06.15 19:40:27 -
[21] - Quote
d0cTeR9 wrote:This is ONLY for the Test Server.
Not happy? DON'T use it.
That simple. Thanks for suggesting the course of action I have been undertaking for approximately 96 hours now. Your contribution would have been much more valuable at the time of receiving the prompt. Even still; zero multiplied by anything is still zero.
If brute force isn't working, you're just not using enough.
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CCP Snorlax
C C P C C P Alliance
713
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Posted - 2015.06.15 20:04:08 -
[22] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:CCP Snorlax wrote:Maxiuss 3 wrote:wWhen it say's 3 RD party's, that gives me GREAT CONCERN. IE data breaks are ramped, so when your giving this data about users its a back door to my DATA iE sever address ect accounts. I trust EVE but not undisclosed #r3d Party's. Please explain those third party's exactly, to whom are you selling my info to?
We're not selling any info, we are using an external service to gather the logs and using their tools for analysis. But according to the little blurb at the top of the thread, There may be other cases where something that might be considered personally identifiable data will go into those logs.If you allow Eve to install in its default locations, it installs folders to your Users folder. If the scans include that folder and as you state, something personally identifiable may be included, what exactly is it that "might" be included? Your not 'selling" our information, your paying someone to collect it. Will CCP be responsible for any misuse of information collected by the 3rd party or is the strict need for the waiver CCP's legal "out" in case of wrong doing? We're simply forwarding any warnings and errors in logs so that we can see them without you having to run LogServer and send us your logs. What exactly gets logged evolves over time - when tracking down bugs we often add logging to help us narrow the issues down. I hope that will be more effective now as we see logs from more players.
You can run with LogServer attached to see what is sent to us - the warnings and errors show up as yellow and red.
It is hard for us to guarantee that nothing will ever show up in logs that can be viewed as personally identifiable information, hence the disclosure.
Keep in mind that this only applies to our test servers and the intent is to help us improve the quality of the EVE client. If you feel this is too much of a risk, we're sorry not be able to accommodate you on our test servers.
CCP Snorlax - Software Architect - Team RnB
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Moonlit Raid
State War Academy Caldari State
252
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Posted - 2015.06.16 18:02:14 -
[23] - Quote
CCP Snorlax wrote:[quote=Sgt Ocker][quote=CCP Snorlax] We're simply forwarding any warnings and errors in logs so that we can see them without you having to run LogServer and send us your logs. What exactly gets logged evolves over time - when tracking down bugs we often add logging to help us narrow the issues down. I hope that will be more effective now as we see logs from more players.
You can run with LogServer attached to see what is sent to us - the warnings and errors show up as yellow and red.
It is hard for us to guarantee that nothing will ever show up in logs that can be viewed as personally identifiable information, hence the disclosure.
Keep in mind that this only applies to our test servers and the intent is to help us improve the quality of the EVE client. If you feel this is too much of a risk, we're sorry not be able to accommodate you on our test servers.
For example: If I get no errors I do not know what is logged in errors if my only source is to run the logserver until they occur. I doubt anyone is very bothered if a small snippet of info such as first name (via file path) is captured; or what time the error occured giving away our gaming habits. What I would be concerned about is the log server capturing info about other running processes. [Made up statistic:]99% of us would be more than happy to help in this goal too. BUT I would like to know what the logserver is capable of capturing, i.e a full list. For example: - File paths of client files or core .dat files client up time cpu % load image name of other running processes RAM usage of other processes host file contents etc etc etc
If brute force isn't working, you're just not using enough.
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Balder Verdandi
Bloody Hands
265
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Posted - 2015.06.16 19:47:13 -
[24] - Quote
Moonlit Raid wrote:For example: If I get no errors I do not know what is logged in errors if my only source is to run the logserver until they occur. I doubt anyone is very bothered if a small snippet of info such as first name (via file path) is captured; or what time the error occured giving away our gaming habits. What I would be concerned about is the log server capturing info about other running processes. [Made up statistic:]99% of us would be more than happy to help in this goal too. BUT I would like to know what the logserver is capable of capturing, i.e a full list. For example: - File paths of client files or core .dat files client up time cpu % load image name of other running processes RAM usage of other processes host file contents etc etc etc
^This. Honestly if I could upvote this by a trillion, I would.
With the recent hack of the US government's HR department (United States Office of Personnel Management) I have concerns.
Big concerns.
I want to know what kind of data you're logging, and what might be considered PII, and why you'd even consider mining that information from me. Especially through a third party without any guarantee that data won't get "lost".
Take a step back and think about this one CCP. The possibility, no matter how remote, of gaining someone's PII with a blurb in the forums and no details about what your third party is logging/mining throws a huge wrench into anyone helping on the test server in the future.
Long live the failure of "Unified Inventory"!
POS fix dated back to 2006!
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Radgette
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
104
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Posted - 2015.06.17 16:46:45 -
[25] - Quote
I need to access Sisi to practice for the AT but as others have stated I want to know from you, as it's you requesting the access, exactly what PII you will be gleaning from my machine before i accept anything.
Persec is pretty important to me and i'm not about to accept something without properly defined parameters on what you can and can't look at. |
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CCP Snorlax
C C P C C P Alliance
713
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Posted - 2015.06.18 10:14:04 -
[26] - Quote
We do not scan the machine looking for other processes or look at memory outside our process, scan folders unrelated to EVE or anything like that.
The LogServer (or this newly added data gathering mechanism) does not capture any data by itself - it's only showing (and forwarding) what the EVE client logs.
- We log the IP address that sends us the logs.
- We may log the full file paths of any file accessed by the EVE client - this may then include the user name on the machine. This is the most likely piece of personally identifiable information.
- We may log the memory use of the EVE client process.
- We log stack traces for exceptions raised in the Python code - this includes the values of local variables in the code.
If you still have concerns, try running LogServer with the Tranquility client - we'd be getting exactly that sort of data (only the red and yellow lines).
CCP Snorlax - Software Architect - Team RnB
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Balder Verdandi
Bloody Hands
265
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Posted - 2015.06.19 00:44:19 -
[27] - Quote
CCP Snorlax wrote:We do not scan the machine looking for other processes or look at memory outside our process, scan folders unrelated to EVE or anything like that. The LogServer (or this newly added data gathering mechanism) does not capture any data by itself - it's only showing (and forwarding) what the EVE client logs.
- We log the IP address that sends us the logs.
- We may log the full file paths of any file accessed by the EVE client - this may then include the user name on the machine. This is the most likely piece of personally identifiable information.
- We may log the memory use of the EVE client process.
- We log stack traces for exceptions raised in the Python code - this includes the values of local variables in the code.
If you still have concerns, try running LogServer with the Tranquility client - we'd be getting exactly that sort of data (only the red and yellow lines).
Still, this is a huge no-go for me as there isn't much detail and the whole "We may log the full file paths of any file accessed by the EVE client - this may then include the user name on the machine. This is the most likely piece of personally identifiable information." thing .... if you can't, or won't, tell us what PII you "might" end up mining, then why should I do anything with the test server?
It's not that difficult to come clean with good, solid, information.
Long live the failure of "Unified Inventory"!
POS fix dated back to 2006!
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Moonlit Raid
State War Academy Caldari State
254
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Posted - 2015.06.19 05:25:45 -
[28] - Quote
Balder Verdandi wrote:CCP Snorlax wrote:We do not scan the machine looking for other processes or look at memory outside our process, scan folders unrelated to EVE or anything like that. The LogServer (or this newly added data gathering mechanism) does not capture any data by itself - it's only showing (and forwarding) what the EVE client logs.
- We log the IP address that sends us the logs.
- We may log the full file paths of any file accessed by the EVE client - this may then include the user name on the machine. This is the most likely piece of personally identifiable information.
- We may log the memory use of the EVE client process.
- We log stack traces for exceptions raised in the Python code - this includes the values of local variables in the code.
If you still have concerns, try running LogServer with the Tranquility client - we'd be getting exactly that sort of data (only the red and yellow lines). Still, this is a huge no-go for me as there isn't much detail and the whole "We may log the full file paths of any file accessed by the EVE client - this may then include the user name on the machine. This is the most likely piece of personally identifiable information." thing .... if you can't, or won't, tell us what PII you "might" end up mining, then why should I do anything with the test server? It's not that difficult to come clean with good, solid, information. If I'm honest this is perfectly fine with me, I couldn't give a toss if they glean file paths because I don't ever use my real name on computers anyway. Ip w/e it's a communal one anyway. Memory use of the client, again w/e. And finally I'm almost certain the only thing I have that is python is eve anyway. So long as the list is accurate then I don't mind.
If brute force isn't working, you're just not using enough.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32016
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Posted - 2015.07.05 23:56:30 -
[29] - Quote
CCP Snorlax wrote:We do not scan the machine looking for other processes or look at memory outside our process, scan folders unrelated to EVE or anything like that. The LogServer (or this newly added data gathering mechanism) does not capture any data by itself - it's only showing (and forwarding) what the EVE client logs.
- We log the IP address that sends us the logs.
- We may log the full file paths of any file accessed by the EVE client - this may then include the user name on the machine. This is the most likely piece of personally identifiable information.
- We may log the memory use of the EVE client process.
- We log stack traces for exceptions raised in the Python code - this includes the values of local variables in the code.
If you still have concerns, try running LogServer with the Tranquility client - we'd be getting exactly that sort of data (only the red and yellow lines). I would be satisfied with this being linked in the popup, or included in the popup as a lengthy "I have read and understand" type of thing. "LogServer" makes sense to me, I've run it before, and sent the results to you in a couple Issues, Workarounds & Localization threads.
I've also ended up with gigabytes of LogServer errors, so hey good luck, keep up the good work, and have fun.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
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Ether Mayaki
Ethereal Beings
10
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Posted - 2015.07.06 03:56:21 -
[30] - Quote
Balder Verdandi wrote:CCP Snorlax wrote:We do not scan the machine looking for other processes or look at memory outside our process, scan folders unrelated to EVE or anything like that. The LogServer (or this newly added data gathering mechanism) does not capture any data by itself - it's only showing (and forwarding) what the EVE client logs.
- We log the IP address that sends us the logs.
- We may log the full file paths of any file accessed by the EVE client - this may then include the user name on the machine. This is the most likely piece of personally identifiable information.
- We may log the memory use of the EVE client process.
- We log stack traces for exceptions raised in the Python code - this includes the values of local variables in the code.
If you still have concerns, try running LogServer with the Tranquility client - we'd be getting exactly that sort of data (only the red and yellow lines). Still, this is a huge no-go for me as there isn't much detail and the whole "We may log the full file paths of any file accessed by the EVE client - this may then include the user name on the machine. This is the most likely piece of personally identifiable information." thing .... if you can't, or won't, tell us what PII you "might" end up mining, then why should I do anything with the test server? It's not that difficult to come clean with good, solid, information.
It's not like CCP already has a database entry of all the associated PI with your account from registration to credit cards. If you're paranoid enough to provide a fake name and billing address during registration, you probably shouldn't be online to start with.
That being said I think collecting metrics on folder locations and better info on the game client can only lead to improvements.
AND
It's not like they tried to hide the data collection from us. They could of easily started collecting without the popup. But they went and made sure to be polite and tell us. |
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