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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Alowishus
Shadow Company Alektorophobia
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Posted - 2006.11.08 19:25:00 -
[421]
Originally by: Sendraks 1) Attacking as a suicide pirate = not an exploit. The player can defend. 2) Using a 3rd party to steal cargo = exploit. The player cannot defend.
A contrast:
1) Following someone around waiting for NPCs to kill them = not an exploit. 2) Looting their can after the NPC kills them = exploit?
Players cannot deffend against their can being looted by anyone, ever. So how does the method of destruction of their ship, or the relationship of the looter to the destroyer make any difference?
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Taram Caldar
Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension
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Posted - 2006.11.08 19:28:00 -
[422]
Edited by: Taram Caldar on 08/11/2006 19:30:22
Originally by: Rekindle
It also makes me sick that by pointing out some obvious flaw - that is a difference between what was intended, and what is actually happening, that i am some how unworthy or I dont understand the game mechanics or that this is how it is and you should live with it.
No, you're still missing the point. The DEVS, the DOCS and the Tutorial all state that it is not SAFE anywhere except IN DOCK!... They specifically state that you can be attacked anytime, anywhere, except docked in a station.
This isn't an unintended aspect of the game. It is the game. Period. If someone feels it's worth losing a ship to kill you for whatever reason (revenge, loot, whatever) they can. Period.
This is not a FLAW. The only flaw is when alts are used to do it, the assets transferred to another character and the alt biomassed. That is a bannable offense. But suicide ganking within the rules is not a flaw or an exploit. That's what you're not getting. It's perfectly within the rules and working as the devs intended or they'd have told players to stop.
I understand that you can't grasp that but it is what it is. Suicide killing has been in EVE since BETA. If it was unintended 3yrs into the game (4yrs since beta) you'd think it would have been removed by now or they'd have told people not to do it.
I don't do it. I don't like it. I have had friends be on the receiving end of it. But it's PART of the game. I don't run around trying to get the rules altered. I modify my gameplay to compensate for the rules, not try to get the rules altered to compensate for my gameplay.
Just because you don't LIKE that it's allowed doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed. It's an aspect of the game that everyone deals with. Fly a tech 2 hauler if carrying valuable cargo or fly with escorts (or both) or be willing to accept that you risk getting blasted. It's just that simple.
There is only 1 thing I think needs to be done in this entire situation: Remove insurance payouts for ships killed by concord. That's it... end of story.
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Taram Caldar
Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension
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Posted - 2006.11.08 19:34:00 -
[423]
Originally by: Radioactive Babe
Originally by: Wolfways On the pirate side...Suicide killing does give the pirate a cheap, and maybe highly profitable kill...but that's what pirates are really. The easier the fight the better.
Thats the nub of the issue, its very very easy and has almost no consequences for the pierat (sec status hit? kill 0.0 npc's for a week and you'll be +5 again) if they stood a chance of losing out on it (attacking a hauler that may not drop enough items to cover the cost of a new ship) then the whole thing balances out .. but they only lose 40mil isk at present (plat insurance + fittings), this makes hitting a ship with 100mil worth of mins/bpo's/mods a viable proposition ...... which is daft
Pretty sure you need more than 1 ship to do the whole pop a hauler thing... I can't immagine any one ship popping a hauler before concord shows up if the hauler has even basic resist gear or shields in his mids. Every time I've read about it it's several folks hitting the ship and a unganged hauler carting off the loot.
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Shagrath Xarra
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Posted - 2006.11.08 19:38:00 -
[424]
What strikes me as being hypocritical is this OP probably never brought this discussion or any similar subjects like it up on the forums prior to him getting ganked and losing all of his stuff.
Now all of a sudden it is a "weak game mechanic" which needs to be discussed and addressed pronto.
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Alowishus
Shadow Company Alektorophobia
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Posted - 2006.11.08 19:51:00 -
[425]
Originally by: Taram Caldar Edited by: Taram Caldar on 08/11/2006 19:30:22
Originally by: Rekindle
It also makes me sick that by pointing out some obvious flaw - that is a difference between what was intended, and what is actually happening, that i am some how unworthy or I dont understand the game mechanics or that this is how it is and you should live with it.
No, you're still missing the point. The DEVS, the DOCS and the Tutorial all state that it is not SAFE anywhere except IN DOCK!... They specifically state that you can be attacked anytime, anywhere, except docked in a station.
This isn't an unintended aspect of the game. It is the game. Period. If someone feels it's worth losing a ship to kill you for whatever reason (revenge, loot, whatever) they can. Period.
This is not a FLAW. The only flaw is when alts are used to do it, the assets transferred to another character and the alt biomassed. That is a bannable offense. But suicide ganking within the rules is not a flaw or an exploit. That's what you're not getting. It's perfectly within the rules and working as the devs intended or they'd have told players to stop.
I understand that you can't grasp that but it is what it is. Suicide killing has been in EVE since BETA. If it was unintended 3yrs into the game (4yrs since beta) you'd think it would have been removed by now or they'd have told people not to do it.
I don't do it. I don't like it. I have had friends be on the receiving end of it. But it's PART of the game. I don't run around trying to get the rules altered. I modify my gameplay to compensate for the rules, not try to get the rules altered to compensate for my gameplay.
Just because you don't LIKE that it's allowed doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed. It's an aspect of the game that everyone deals with. Fly a tech 2 hauler if carrying valuable cargo or fly with escorts (or both) or be willing to accept that you risk getting blasted. It's just that simple.
There is only 1 thing I think needs to be done in this entire situation: Remove insurance payouts for ships killed by concord. That's it... end of story.
Most objective, valid and accurate post in the thread.
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Nanobotter Mk2
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Posted - 2006.11.08 20:03:00 -
[426]
"This isn't an unintended aspect of the game. It is the game. Period. If someone feels it's worth losing a ship to kill you for whatever reason (revenge, loot, whatever) they can. Period.
This is not a FLAW. The only flaw is when alts are used to do it, the assets transferred to another character and the alt biomassed. That is a bannable offense. But suicide ganking within the rules is not a flaw or an exploit. That's what you're not getting. It's perfectly within the rules and working as the devs intended or they'd have told players to stop.
I understand that you can't grasp that but it is what it is. Suicide killing has been in EVE since BETA. If it was unintended 3yrs into the game (4yrs since beta) you'd think it would have been removed by now or they'd have told people not to do it."
Everyone understands this but your wrong when you suggest it isnt a flaw. It is a 100% flaw. Like you said alts are used to do it, but they do not have to be biomassed, and to be honest even if they do get biomassed it is impossible to enforce it and be banned lets get real. The flaw occurs in the fact that the looting game mechanic is exploited. Hopefully one day CCP will make loot cans from players falgged in a similar way they made jet cans flagged, with the difference that if you loot a players can who was not yourself dying, or the agressor of that can you get concorded and then a 15 min timer on it.
same could be said for logging by the way that has been around for the entire spawn of EVE i guess logging to avoid death MUST BE INTENDED! Wrong... So please do not confuse the fact that something going unfixed for a long period of time is the same as being intended....
It seems obvious to me the reason it is said in the tutorial that empire isnt 100% safe, isnt because of suicide gankers, but possibly the fact there are things like WAR dec's, and now jet cans are flagged for pvp... and who knows what else...
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Radioactive Babe
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Posted - 2006.11.08 20:15:00 -
[427]
Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 same could be said for logging by the way that has been around for the entire spawn of EVE i guess logging to avoid death MUST BE INTENDED! Wrong... So please do not confuse the fact that something going unfixed for a long period of time is the same as being intended....
Indeed, we all know that CCP will not call something an bug/exploit if its difficult to stop or hard to fix in the code ... (macro miners/logoffski/pos targeting etc etc) .. if it was easy to fix (like using wasps after one patch because they were seriously overpowered) then they will call using that an exploit and fix asap
Quote: It seems obvious to me the reason it is said in the tutorial that empire isnt 100% safe, isnt because of suicide gankers, but possibly the fact there are things like WAR dec's, and now jet cans are flagged for pvp... and who knows what else...
that was also my understanding as well, but the pierats twisted that round to make what they are doing seem to be what CCP intended |
000Hunter000
Gallente Leviathan Corperation LTD
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Posted - 2006.11.08 20:30:00 -
[428]
Ok, i've read the first post and i usually keep an open mind to posts like these cuz after playing all this time i do know this game can be kinda rough...
But your whining cuz a suicide ganksquad blew up all your stuff? what??? u played almost 2 years and your suprised this happens?
if u still can't fly a T2 hauler after 2 years and don't even bother taking any precautions whatsoever i (and prolly most of the community) can hardly sympathise.
My advice, go get a blockade runner and get some instas.
Transporting your most valuable possesions in a flimsy hauler... sigh... some people will never learn.
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.08 20:40:00 -
[429]
Originally by: Rekindle Granted my view point is a little messed up right now. Having played game for a while now ( 2 years in feb ) and loosing literally everything you own on a retarded game mechanic will have that effect on people. But let me explain:
I spend 80% of my time in 0.0 and %20 of my time in empire. I was on a empire run when a well practiced group blew up my iteron 5 hauler [with high end expanders] in a .5 system. I was not at war with them, I wasn't afk, I was in an empire system when they used their grief tactics to explode everything (and I mean everything) I own in the form of Bpos/Bpcs/mods etc into nothing.
Let me save the naysayers the effort: And explain outright that I understand that this is an accepted method of game play (to shoot and take the Concord hit) and then have your mates loot.
But its specifically because its accepted that I come to the conclusion this game is a griefer playground. I have invested as much time and energy in this game as griefers, yet because I chose to move my stuff through what was suposed to be secure space, I am being penalized and the "material" representation of time is now gone.
If you don't want players to partake in care bearing empire runs then dont bait them with what is 99.99999999% of the time secure space and write off being ganked with a "you should have known better" attitude. Just call this a %100 pvp only game where combat can happen against your 1hp hauler any time anywhere and remove policing altogther or otherwise repair this pathetic game mechanic.
lol?
Because I said so...
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Radioactive Babe
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Posted - 2006.11.08 20:41:00 -
[430]
Originally by: 000Hunter000 ....didnt bother arse even looking at the last page to get an idea of the threads direction....
ya ya ya ... move along to find another thread to flame OR read at least a few of the last pages and join the lively discussion |
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Radioactive Babe
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Posted - 2006.11.08 20:42:00 -
[431]
Originally by: murder one ... same as the other bloke above, needless flamage because he didnt read the thread ...
RTFT |
Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.11.08 20:45:00 -
[432]
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 08/11/2006 20:45:40 You knew the risks.
This entire game focus's on PVP to one extent or another, you are either engaging in it, or trying to avoid it.
In some area's the cards are stacked in your favor, in other area's the opposite is true. But in no area are you completely free to blunder around with not a care in the world as to protecting yourself.
That is the design of the game you are playing, like it or not.
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Taram Caldar
Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension
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Posted - 2006.11.08 21:12:00 -
[433]
Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2
Everyone understands this but your wrong when you suggest it isnt a flaw. It is a 100% flaw. Like you said alts are used to do it, but they do not have to be biomassed, and to be honest even if they do get biomassed it is impossible to enforce it and be banned lets get real. The flaw occurs in the fact that the looting game mechanic is exploited.
No it is NOT a flaw. Being blasted to shreds in high sec is not a flaw. It is perfectly legitimate gameplay.
Once your dead your cans are out there for anyone to loot. And no, it's not necessarily an alt doing it.
This isn't WoW. It's not EQ it is EVE. And in EVE no place is safe. Get it into your skull. You are not "SAFE" anywhere in EVE except docked in your station. Heck, you aren't even 100% safe in a POS. You are *only* safe in the station. The tutorial teaches you this within 10 minutes of starting the game (30 if you're slow).
Someone who loots your can is attackable by you or anyone else in your gang. Thus the looting of your gear is not an exploit either. Anyone can loot it. Some noob in a frig can fly up and snatch up all the BPO's that dropped and there's not a thing wrong with it. He'll get an agression timer to you (and anyone in your gang) but that's it. Those are the rules, the mechanics and how EVE works.
It's a rough universe. Learn to adapt or don't. It's entirely up to you. But the bottom line is: Noplace is safe. Fly accordingly.
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Snarls McGee
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Posted - 2006.11.08 21:37:00 -
[434]
Originally by: Kitchie
My biggest criticism of suicide ganking is that there is no comeback. You can have a friend escorting you but he can do nothing about the ganker's hauler picking up your stuff or he'll be Concorded as well. No pod kill so no kill rights, just a 15 min aggression countdown on the ganker that he will avoid.
It is lame to the extent that there is no skill involved and almost no penalty for it but I guess it some people's idea of fun.....
QFT.
Fifteen minute aggression timers are way too short and way too easily bypassed.
For that matter, the whole Concord thing is out of whack. The police will shoot the mugger(s) but they won't shoot the mugger's friends that pick over the corpse. Going one further they'll shoot *ME* if I try to defend my corp mate's belongings?
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Nanobotter Mk2
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Posted - 2006.11.09 01:02:00 -
[435]
"No it is NOT a flaw. Being blasted to shreds in high sec is not a flaw. It is perfectly legitimate gameplay.
Once your dead your cans are out there for anyone to loot. And no, it's not necessarily an alt doing it.
This isn't WoW. It's not EQ it is EVE. And in EVE no place is safe. Get it into your skull. You are not "SAFE" anywhere in EVE except docked in your station. Heck, you aren't even 100% safe in a POS. You are *only* safe in the station. The tutorial teaches you this within 10 minutes of starting the game (30 if you're slow).
Someone who loots your can is attackable by you or anyone else in your gang. Thus the looting of your gear is not an exploit either. Anyone can loot it. Some noob in a frig can fly up and snatch up all the BPO's that dropped and there's not a thing wrong with it. He'll get an agression timer to you (and anyone in your gang) but that's it. Those are the rules, the mechanics and how EVE works.
It's a rough universe. Learn to adapt or don't. It's entirely up to you. But the bottom line is: Noplace is safe. Fly accordingly."
Oh please stop with the i am raw, and hardcore and bill bad-arse chitchat. It is a flaw, and here is more ammo for you to ingore as you blindly try to beleive it isnt. It is also a major flaw because YOU CANNOT DEFEND YOURSELF, until agressed, nor can these suiciders be killed without concord killing you also. I mean these guys are obvious, fly a farking hauler around some day ( empty cargo ), you will load in, there will be a raven, and a hauler sitting at the gate, you will get targeted and scanned.... you have no cargo so you do not get suicided..... great now i know a suicide ganker is there, but he gets to sit safely in his raven and there is no way to put the hurt on him...... Good luck trying to arse around that to justify that empire suicide ganking isnt a flaw or broken or needing fixing, or intended.... What next you gonna argue it should be okay to bomb people from the safety of a station? muhahahahah
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DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes Forces of Freedom
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Posted - 2006.11.09 01:16:00 -
[436]
I honestly dont believe that it's intended game play. But then again maybe my vision is a bit blurred coming from DAOC where the exact same mechanism is used; kingdom is safe, handfull of dungeons is dangerous where you run the risk to be ganked and then there is the frontier which is deadly. However the safe areas there are safe (except for NPCs).
Ow and can we please stop using WoW as an example for PvP... WoW's PvP was an afterthought and just plainly **** poor. ----------------------------------------------- The BIG Lottery |
Jason Kildaro
Minmatar Synergy Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.09 01:17:00 -
[437]
You can argue that Eve favors the agressors...maybe too much so, but to say it is a flaw is presumptious. Suicide ganking has been around so long it's hard for me to believe that the Devs do not realize it exists.
You have been given tools to lessen the chance of being ganked but you did not use them. Why are you not using a T2 hauler? Why? After 2 years you cannot sya that it was not within your reach. You did not bother to invest in protecting your investments. The Devs cannot be blamed for that. I think the envisioned the universe to be a greddy, dark, and seedy one. Look at the backstory. There are very few peaches and cream stories there. Look a the tutorials, look at the Dev posts! There is nothing to indicate that it is not a griefer's game! It is obviously so!
I can understand being mad. I can understand not wnating to play this game. I do not blame ytou if you quit and move on to something else. But to come into Eve and then complain about it's mechanics is like saying "I bought Quake but all people do is steal flags and shoot each other"
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DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes Forces of Freedom
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Posted - 2006.11.09 01:19:00 -
[438]
Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 Oh please stop with the i am raw, and hardcore and bill bad-arse chitchat. It is a flaw, and here is more ammo for you to ingore as you blindly try to beleive it isnt. It is also a major flaw because YOU CANNOT DEFEND YOURSELF, until agressed, nor can these suiciders be killed without concord killing you also. I mean these guys are obvious, fly a farking hauler around some day ( empty cargo ), you will load in, there will be a raven, and a hauler sitting at the gate, you will get targeted and scanned.... you have no cargo so you do not get suicided..... great now i know a suicide ganker is there, but he gets to sit safely in his raven and there is no way to put the hurt on him...... Good luck trying to arse around that to justify that empire suicide ganking isnt a flaw or broken or needing fixing, or intended.... What next you gonna argue it should be okay to bomb people from the safety of a station? muhahahahah
And that says it all, either make this a 100% pvp game or fix the so called safe space mechanics. ----------------------------------------------- The BIG Lottery |
Wolfways
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2006.11.09 02:10:00 -
[439]
Okay here's something to think about.
Every game mechanic that has been changed in every MMO has changed because although it could be done it shouldn't be done. So should something that allows griefing be allowed to stay? For example: I have tons of ISK's. I decide to be a dork and mess with people so i sit outside a station waiting for a transport. People in the very hi-sec areas usually can't afford, or have the skills for the best transport ships so destroying one should be easy. I blow one up, loot with an alt, and get another ship to go do it again, and again, etc. When my security drops i can go do the same thing in a lower hi-sec area or stop and do missions to increase my sec status again.
New players, whether they came to EVE for pvp or pve are not going to like that one bit and it could make them quit then and there if they get blown to bits within 5 minutes of leaving the station. Even players who have been in the game for over a month won't have the skills to fight back or protect themselves in any way. Nothing makes a player leave a game faster than getting killed as soon as they start playing, especially if there's nothing they could have done about it.
So, should it be allowed?
Delusions of invincibility combined with a strong homicidal urge... I have a kick-your-ass fetish |
Rekindle
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Posted - 2006.11.09 03:33:00 -
[440]
Edited by: Rekindle on 09/11/2006 03:36:25 Edited by: Rekindle on 09/11/2006 03:35:28 methinks that this has been in the game so long people have concluded its a freakin feature.
Maybe CCP should put a log-to-alt button right on the right click menu so people can use that feature in PvP as well. Some day someone is gonna come on the forums and say its lame that people log off in combat and others are gonna scream at them for whining and being a carebear and complain that its a feature of the game and the should live with it.
Glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks along similar lines on this particular issue. My flame suit was actaully starting to get a bit toasty.
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Lorn Yeager
Gallente Blessed Souls
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Posted - 2006.11.09 09:17:00 -
[441]
Edited by: Lorn Yeager on 09/11/2006 09:25:58 A quicky: Would you like to have places in eve where nobody can open fire at you? (aside from when you are docked?)
A naive but honest question in all of this...
Begin sig: //->
Its Aloha time!
Lorn Yeager Blessed Souls
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Steven Dynahir
Gallente Avaruuslaivanrakentajat Oyj
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Posted - 2006.11.09 09:41:00 -
[442]
Originally by: Lorn Yeager A quicky: Would you like to have places in eve where nobody can open fire at you? (aside from when you are docked?)
No.
A quicky 2: Would you like to have places in EVE where shooting at you would cause negative concequences to the shooter?
--- Sell orders Recruitment
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Wolfways
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2006.11.09 11:00:00 -
[443]
Originally by: Lorn Yeager Edited by: Lorn Yeager on 09/11/2006 09:25:58 A quicky: Would you like to have places in eve where nobody can open fire at you? (aside from when you are docked?)
A naive but honest question in all of this...
No
Delusions of invincibility combined with a strong homicidal urge... I have a kick-your-ass fetish |
Wolfways
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2006.11.09 11:01:00 -
[444]
Originally by: Steven Dynahir
Originally by: Lorn Yeager A quicky: Would you like to have places in eve where nobody can open fire at you? (aside from when you are docked?)
No.
A quicky 2: Would you like to have places in EVE where shooting at you would cause negative concequences to the shooter?
I thought that's what Empire space was supposed to be... You can be attacked but the attacker gets blown up by Concord, but that doesn't matter if the attacker can make a big profit from it anyway
Delusions of invincibility combined with a strong homicidal urge... I have a kick-your-ass fetish |
DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes Forces of Freedom
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Posted - 2006.11.09 11:06:00 -
[445]
Edited by: DrAtomic on 09/11/2006 11:13:41
Originally by: Rekindle Edited by: Rekindle on 09/11/2006 03:36:25 Edited by: Rekindle on 09/11/2006 03:35:28 methinks that this has been in the game so long people have concluded its a freakin feature.
Maybe CCP should put a log-to-alt button right on the right click menu so people can use that feature in PvP as well. Some day someone is gonna come on the forums and say its lame that people log off in combat and others are gonna scream at them for whining and being a carebear and complain that its a feature of the game and the should live with it.
Glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks along similar lines on this particular issue. My flame suit was actaully starting to get a bit toasty.
I'm afraid though that the only way we'll see this fixed is by making a griefers inc corp with trial accounts and start camping starter systems and blowing up noobs over and over again... As in gank every hauler, cargo or no cargo... Should be easily do-able with frigs... ----------------------------------------------- The BIG Lottery |
Elvarien
Caldari The Night's Watch THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY
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Posted - 2006.11.09 11:12:00 -
[446]
reading the op I just think one thing. one does not use a cargotugger to move blueprints. . . actualy one does not move the vasluable mods atall one sells em and re-buys em lower priced in the new location. >----
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DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes Forces of Freedom
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Posted - 2006.11.09 11:14:00 -
[447]
Originally by: Elvarien reading the op I just think one thing. one does not use a cargotugger to move blueprints. . . actualy one does not move the vasluable mods atall one sells em and re-buys em lower priced in the new location.
Sure, and then spend another 2 years re-researching them all... ----------------------------------------------- The BIG Lottery |
Acama
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Posted - 2006.11.09 11:30:00 -
[448]
Where do these suiciders sit?
Surely it's worth making a courier mission out of a civvie shield booster, putting it in a badger, waiting for it to get popped then scooping their loot?
I mean, if they use ravens to do it, even the basic mods must be worth a bit.
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Lord Dynastron
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Posted - 2006.11.09 19:05:00 -
[449]
Originally by: Death Merchant I keep seeing the term "safe space". There is no safe space in eve. I will repeat in caps, THERE IS NO SAFE SPACE IN EVE! There is space that is safer than 0.0. but for the third time there is no safe space. I feel bad for people that lose stuff because of this, but it should be universally understood that no where except inside a station is immune to player interaction.
I dunno,, with one shot suicide missles out there, 0.0 and 1.0 you are about equally likely to end up dead if you are in an Iteron V loaded with a billion isk in cargo and anybody knows about it.
So, 1.0 equals a death sentance and 0.0 equals a death sentance.... seems like we are comparing apples to apples. 1.0 is NOT safer then 0.0 in this case.
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Lord Dynastron
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Posted - 2006.11.09 19:08:00 -
[450]
Here is another kicker to this whole scenario. This whole suicide attack methodology is VERY EFFECTIVE and the more people know about it, the more popular it will become. Seriously, it is almost a no loose scenario,,, you scan the cargo and if it is worth more then your ship, nuke it! No muss, no fuss. Simple math. Easy math. (risk? Where is the risk again?)
Very soon Iteron V's will be virtually uselss in Jita... at least if they are hauling anything worth a flip.
Mark my words,, this is gonna get really out of hand.
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