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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2821
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Posted - 2015.05.03 06:06:28 -
[181] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:
tl;dr The reason of poor retention is because people below SP wall will always lose, people hate losing, and losing less will not help it one bit.
While SP can be a contributing factor to the outcome of PvP it is not the only factor. If a high SP pilot shows up in a long range fit and goes up against a low SP pilot who is fit for close range and gets in under his guns...the result is not a forgone conclusion based on SP. There are a number of variables at play in determining the outcome of PvP...of which SP is one variable. To heap all explanatory power on just the one variable is foolish. Then it's good I haven't done something foolish, which you would've known, if you could read the post before tl;dr It properly explains why SP is the strongest factor, the strongest force multiplier of all - because even in your example, knowing that a long range ship will lose a brawl and stashing a brawling ship in case enemy will get a brawling ship is common sense - as long as both are in brawling ships, 1 million SP toon will be lucky to last 10 seconds against a 100 million SP toon, demonstrating to everybody and his dog quite clearly what was the winning factor there. In case of double miracle of higher SP toon having a brain fart and going against common sense, I won't count it as the victory of the low SP toon - going against common sense is the same as self-destruction and the only role a low-sp toon had in it is happening to be there when it happened. This is pure luck, and if wins by pure luck can satisfy you, you might as well go play craps.
So...you were lying in your tlldr?
But wait, you say that SP is the strongest factor...so you aren't heaping all explanatory power on one variable...just most of it. And you finish that second paragraph by saying pretty much that only SP matter.
Your third paragraph says that when a lower SP character wins...its just dumb luck and doesn't count.
Whatever. Seems your tl;dr was fairly accurate and you are being rather foolish.
Care to paint yourself into another corner?
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
312
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Posted - 2015.05.03 08:25:05 -
[182] - Quote
Kaely Tanniss wrote:One thing I have noticed throughout this thread is few, If any, mention skill. I don't mean SP, I mean skill. Skill as a pilot is as much, if not more, important than sp. You can have a bil sp all in combat and someone with a few mil sp that's a better pilot can beat you. Skill and experience are a lot more valuable than SP. SP just dictates what you can use...not how well you can use it.
If you and I are in a cruiser 1v1 and you have more skills to V than I do in applicable categories, each one is making your ship 2,3, or even 5% better than mine in multiple areas. If you contend that doesn't matter, you are either not thinking or have some need to believe that all your victories are due to pilot skill.
Let's pretend for a moment that neither one of us is ******** enough to jump into an engagement where one ship is outright countered by the other. Yes, if my blaster brawl deimos lands 25k off your kitey stabber at a belt, I'm in for a slow and painful death assuming you don't utterly fail at flying and allow me to land a scram. Doesn't matter that I have a "better" ship or even if I have SP advantages giving my ship technically superior performance. You've got my hard counter and I'm dead. Just like if an active tanked blaster boat decides to attack a neut buffer drone boat, or a 10m SP brawler incursus warps into a plex on a 1m SP kite condor sitting 20k off.
When people talk about SP being an issue, they're assuming a situation where neither pilots' ship hard counters the other or they even have the same ship, because a smart pilot isn't going to engage your t1 rock with his t2 scissors.
We're talking about close fights here. If I see a tristan on scan at a plex and I warp in with my own tristan and we've got similar fits and know how to fly them, then one of us having surgical strike V and drone interfacing V and the other not, is very likely to be the deciding factor. Likewise if I take out my VNI and get into a scrap with another VNI who has cruisers 5 to my 4, he's got a 10% DPS advantage right off the bat.
Likewise, if I get wardecced by someone who can fly any subcap almost perfectly while I'm limited to Gallente boats; that's putting me at a severe disadvantage. SP has a very real impact on ship performance and fitting/hull choice options.
I do not for the life of me understand people who say it doesn't matter. Even if you train a specific frigate with +4s it's going to be ~3 months before you can take that frig against a *a pilot who isn't a moron* in the same ship. The fact that I can go sit underneath the large rails of a 100M SP mission bear in his navy mega and murder him with a 10M SP Ishkur does not prove SP irrelevant. It proves the navy mega pilot a ******.
This wasn't just a response to a single person. I'm tired of the "SP doesn't matter" bittervets who have tons spread out over multiple toons basing their argument on a hypothetical matchup between the 5M SP alt of a dedicated combat player and the 100M sp main of a miner who hasn't fired those large rails at anything besides red crosses, ever.
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
3851
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Posted - 2015.05.03 09:02:41 -
[183] - Quote
Demerius, I'd say that what wins fights in EVE is, in order of importance:
1. The pre-fight preparation. This is includes many things: ship/fit selection, pre-fight warping and maneuvering to fight where you want (at a gate, in a plex, in deadspace or in normal warpable space, ...) and at the starting range you prefer, psychological warfare to get your opponent mad or overconfident, etc.
2. Number of ships
3. Piloting during the fight
4. SP
Sure we all agree that if you assume 1,2 and 3 are equal (similar ships flown by competent pilots that just warp to the sun at zero and duke it out in a 1v1), then SP will indeed make a difference. But that's kinda obvious, isn't it?
People insist that SP doesn't matter that much because they want to encourage newbie PVPers to learn the 'soft-skills' of PVP, preparation (1) and piloting (3), instead of feeling they won't stand a chance because of numbers or SP (which are 'hard' numerical values that are easy to grasp, but that by no means tell the whole story).
Constantly reminding new PVPers that it's not all about SP is a good thing and helps make better pilots. People don't need to be reminded that +10% dmg is an advantage, they can easily understand that on their own.
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Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon That Escalated Quickly.
1580
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Posted - 2015.05.03 09:12:17 -
[184] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:I would like to have a constructive dialog around what can be done to combat risk-aversion in our pvp pilots in New Eden. What I observe is that we regularly decry risk-aversion and others unwillingness to undock and bring a fight, while on the other hand refusing to confront the elephant in the room when it comes to root cause... Ship replacement insurance. Please consider this, and provide constructive feedback. F
IMHO the best way to avoid risk is to suicide an entire Dread fleet rather than make a capital raom....but thats just me.
TunDraGon is recruiting!
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Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
23196
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Posted - 2015.05.03 09:13:30 -
[185] - Quote
Kaely Tanniss wrote:One thing I have noticed throughout this thread is few, if any, mention skill. I don't mean SP, I mean skill. Skill as a pilot is as much, if not more, important than sp. You can have a bil sp all in combat and someone with a few mil sp that's a better pilot can beat you. Skill and experience are a lot more valuable than SP. SP just dictates what you can use...not how well you can use it. Now take a good guess why people leave it out ... ... and instead blame everything else. :)
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Kamala
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2015.05.03 09:14:34 -
[186] - Quote
Kashadin wrote:The problem with this argument is that you can't bring to bear every SP that your character has available to them in every single fight.
A toon who has 100mill SP but has all those put into mining and production will lose to someone who only has 2mill SP that are dedicated to flying a combat ship if those players were to fight (at a purely SP based combat scenario) because while the 100mill SP toon out-classes the 2mill SP one in age and SP, those SP are doing nothing when it comes to that toon shooting a gun or flying a ship.
rofl
That same old argument: "B-but an industrialist with more SP will lose to a focused low SP combat pilot"
How about making a fair comparison, two PvP combat pilots, one with 100 mil SP, the other with 2 mil. Result: barring a miracle, the 2 mil pilot is taking a trip to the clone bay.
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Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
23197
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Posted - 2015.05.03 09:24:54 -
[187] - Quote
Kamala wrote:Kashadin wrote:The problem with this argument is that you can't bring to bear every SP that your character has available to them in every single fight.
A toon who has 100mill SP but has all those put into mining and production will lose to someone who only has 2mill SP that are dedicated to flying a combat ship if those players were to fight (at a purely SP based combat scenario) because while the 100mill SP toon out-classes the 2mill SP one in age and SP, those SP are doing nothing when it comes to that toon shooting a gun or flying a ship. rofl That same old argument: "B-but an industrialist with more SP will lose to a focused low SP combat pilot" How about making a fair comparison, two PvP combat pilots, one with 100 mil SP, the other with 2 mil. Result: barring a miracle, the 2 mil pilot is taking a trip to the clone bay. There is nothing fair about this comparison. You are either a hypocrite, a liar or should not write such statements.
If you have minmatar frigate at V ... ... and catch you in a gallente frigate ... ... then you're still toast.
People who only look at numbers and don't bother to go into detail ... ... lack any ground to talk about it ... ... because they aren't capable of grasping what they are talking about.
So a combat pilot with 100 mill SP and a combat pilot with 2 mill SP can go EITHER WAY, because you are not specifying which skills you are talking about.
But the best part is that this is nothing more than a bullshit argument ... ... because you won't see 100mill SP people fighting 2mill SP people anyway.
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Kamala
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2015.05.03 09:33:19 -
[188] - Quote
Sol, when you stop littering your posts with insults and flamebait, then you will deserve a response. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
3853
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Posted - 2015.05.03 09:33:53 -
[189] - Quote
Kamala wrote:Kashadin wrote:The problem with this argument is that you can't bring to bear every SP that your character has available to them in every single fight.
A toon who has 100mill SP but has all those put into mining and production will lose to someone who only has 2mill SP that are dedicated to flying a combat ship if those players were to fight (at a purely SP based combat scenario) because while the 100mill SP toon out-classes the 2mill SP one in age and SP, those SP are doing nothing when it comes to that toon shooting a gun or flying a ship. rofl That same old argument: "B-but an industrialist with more SP will lose to a focused low SP combat pilot" How about making a fair comparison, two PvP combat pilots, one with 100 mil SP, the other with 2 mil. Result: barring a miracle, the 2 mil pilot is taking a trip to the clone bay. The deep PVP insight that you provided with this post makes me think that you are, in fact, posting with your main.
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Anuri Suaraj
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
7
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Posted - 2015.05.03 09:39:29 -
[190] - Quote
As a new player I really can't say that I've ran into an "SP wall" yet.
I do exploration in a T1 frig mostly and I've been dodging other players just as easily now with 1 mil SP as I had with 500k.
I see skills in EVE more like pathways that give you more options, more stuff you can do. And sure, the more you train those skills the better you can do them too but that's just a little thing called specialization and it's there to make sure that guy who invested the time to train all the drone skills to max has better drone stats than someone who had just trained them a little bit as an auxiliary to his primary skills.
So the claim of "If I have Skill A at 4, and use it as my primary combat skill and I run into a guy that has that same skill at 5 and is using it as his primary combat skill then I'm kind of fraked..."
Well no sh*t Sherlock. My advice: Run away and go get a ship where you use skill B and have it at 5.
On an unrelated note, here's a joke:
Two brain surgeons walk into a bar. One has been a brain surgeon for over decade and the other has just started his residency. And guess what, there's a good chance that the guy with more training and experience does brain surgery slightly better than the new guy... Padam-pa.
As for the topic of "risk aversion". Well, let's just say I'm a pro at that.
Why don't I PvP? Not because of risk aversion but because to me EVE's combat system is about as immersive and interesting as watching paint dry...
You basically manage some of the more basic functions whilst point and clicking at you foe. And then you wait for server to dish out some 2nd grade math so that you can find out whether you won or lost.
I have no problems with the slow passive shield regeneration but those active regens, armor and hull repairers should be removed in their entirety IMHO.
And CCP should really think about giving combatants more stuff to do in combat...
I better leave now before some vet rolls in with a "You no nothing newb! EVE's combat system is the coolest and EVE is deepest game ever..."
Gracias. |
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Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
23197
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Posted - 2015.05.03 09:41:18 -
[191] - Quote
Kamala wrote:Sol, when you stop littering your posts with insults and flamebait, then you will deserve a response. I will as soon as people like you stop being liars and hypocrites.
See your post as example.
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Kamala
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2015.05.03 09:41:39 -
[192] - Quote
Your sarcasm is noted, Gully. However, it doesn't need 'deep PvP insight' to know what I said is true. |
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
23197
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Posted - 2015.05.03 09:42:41 -
[193] - Quote
Kamala wrote:Your sarcasm is noted, Gully. However, it doesn't need 'deep PvP insight' to know what I said is true. And that's why you get called a liar and a hypocrite.
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Kashadin
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
6
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Posted - 2015.05.03 09:49:23 -
[194] - Quote
Kamala wrote:Kashadin wrote:The problem with this argument is that you can't bring to bear every SP that your character has available to them in every single fight.
A toon who has 100mill SP but has all those put into mining and production will lose to someone who only has 2mill SP that are dedicated to flying a combat ship if those players were to fight (at a purely SP based combat scenario) because while the 100mill SP toon out-classes the 2mill SP one in age and SP, those SP are doing nothing when it comes to that toon shooting a gun or flying a ship. rofl That same old argument: "B-but an industrialist with more SP will lose to a focused low SP combat pilot" How about making a fair comparison, two PvP combat pilots, one with 100 mil SP, the other with 2 mil. Result: barring a miracle, the 2 mil pilot is taking a trip to the clone bay.
It depends on the scale of the PVP we are talking about.
Are we talking about 2 people in FW going at each other in pirate/faction frigs? Or are we talking about people going at each other in WH space with T3s? Are we going to talk about the guy who is out looking for PVP and wanting to fight ships larger than them and sets up a ship that is made to speed/sig tank a higher classes of ships guns? Hell, are we talking about 1v1s, small fleet, or blobs? As the number of ships go up the difference in hard skills becomes less of a factor, since other pilots can make up the difference if any was there in the first place.
Besides, what would you want them to do to change the way the skill system works? Let people pay to get skills or train faster? Give you SP based on using the ability??
The 1st option is just pay-to-win and the 2nd option would need to back-log a older characters usage to be fair and then the gap between old and new toons would be even larger than it is now.
At the end of the day the difference in the pilots ability to make a PVP fight go in that pilots favor is going to mean a lot more than the number of SP that each pilot has. |
Kamala
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2015.05.03 09:56:07 -
[195] - Quote
Anuri Suaraj wrote:As a new player I really can't say that I've ran into an "SP wall" yet.
I do exploration in a T1 frig mostly and I've been dodging other players just as easily now with 1 mil SP as I had with 500k.
The so-called SP wall will affect you in three ways:
In a 1v1 scenario Corp recruitment Access to and/or efficiency in high level content
It's easy to evade vet PvPers as a newb explorer, but you're not comparing like with like. |
Kamala
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2015.05.03 10:09:22 -
[196] - Quote
Kashadin wrote:It depends on the scale of the PVP we are talking about.
Are we talking about 2 people in FW going at each other in pirate/faction frigs? Or are we talking about people going at each other in WH space with T3s? Are we going to talk about the guy who is out looking for PVP and wanting to fight ships larger than them and sets up a ship that is made to speed/sig tank a higher classes of ships guns? Hell, are we talking about 1v1s, small fleet, or blobs? As the number of ships go up the difference in hard skills becomes less of a factor, since other pilots can make up the difference if any was there in the first place.
Whataboutery.
Two people flying ships of the same class, one with 100 mil SP and the other with 5 mil, it is clear who has the paper advantage. And I'm talking about PvP pilots, not miner vs PvPer.
Kashadin wrote:Besides, what would you want them to do to change the way the skill system works? Let people pay to get skills or train faster? Give you SP based on using the ability??
Actually I quite like the skill system. It beats grinding. But it does create the inescapable fact that newer players can never catch up with older players. I don't know if this puts off new players, it didn't bother me much tbh. |
Anuri Suaraj
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
7
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Posted - 2015.05.03 10:11:38 -
[197] - Quote
Yeah, I have to say while I disagree with the guys screaming "SP wall", I also disagree with the guys that are trying to downplay SP with "aww, 10mil SP guy will lose to a 2mil guy assuming the 10mil guy is a tard and the 2mil guy is a pro..."
Well, dah.
You have to take players of comparative skill but different SP levels to see how much of an influence SP really has.
And like I said earlier, while a few skills do require some looking into because their force multipliers multiply a bit too hard, most of them are fine.
For example I have Drones up to 5, Light Drones 4 and Drone Interfacing 3 so my total drone DPS is around 80-ish.
So if I run into another Drone boat that has all those skills at 5, than I will probably lose.
But I can just as easily get killed by a Rail fit Cormorant with super low skills or get out DPS-ed by an Autocannon Thrasher if I let him get close enough.
My point being, while SP is obviously important, there is no freaking wall. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
3855
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Posted - 2015.05.03 10:24:59 -
[198] - Quote
Anuri Suaraj wrote:You have to take players of comparative skill but different SP levels to see how much of an influence SP really has. Hmm no.
To see exactly how much influence SP really has, playing with EFT is enough.
But to understand what can happen in EVE when a low-SP player meets a high-SP player, you have to learn and practice EVE PVP, a step that many of the posters ITT have quite obviously skipped.
I agree that EVE combat isn't immediately immersive, but I think you should refrain from discussing it if - as you say - you have decided to avoid it.
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Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
23201
|
Posted - 2015.05.03 10:33:19 -
[199] - Quote
Kamala wrote:Actually I quite like the skill system. It beats grinding. But it does create the inescapable fact that newer players can never catch up with older players. I don't know if this puts off new players, it didn't bother me much tbh. Except when they reach [racial] frigate V. Small blasters V. Small blaster spec V.
etc. etc.
I don't understand how people can be so completely disconnected from reality. Do you run around, complaining that children have it unfair compared to adults?
It's how the world works. When you start doing something, you do not know how to do it well until you get better.
Argueing about this is nonsense and just shows that you are either not in a position to do so, are a hypocrite or simply do not care about facts and only about being right.
Ignorance is Strength, ey?
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
4458
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Posted - 2015.05.03 11:19:42 -
[200] - Quote
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay. Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!
The Rules: 4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.
ISD Ezwal
Vice Admiral
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Jenshae Chiroptera
1460
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Posted - 2015.05.03 11:23:15 -
[201] - Quote
Here is a problem that exists right now.
The skill wall is too low to sit in a battleship. Newbies train into it with a T1 modules fail fit. Put all their ISK into it and die in this huge ship that should be able to tank in their minds. Quite a few rage quit after losing everything like that.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
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Fozzie is treating a symptom.
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Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
23215
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Posted - 2015.05.03 11:30:38 -
[202] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Here is a problem that exists right now.
The skill wall is too low to sit in a battleship. Newbies train into it with a T1 modules fail fit. Put all their ISK into it and die in this huge ship that should be able to tank in their minds. Quite a few rage quit after losing everything like that. That's not the fault of game mechanics. It's the fault of the griefers who tell noobs to skill for them ... ... so they can run lvl4s ASAP.
Social engineering ... not game mechanics.
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
3856
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Posted - 2015.05.03 11:56:59 -
[203] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Here is a problem that exists right now.
The skill wall is too low to sit in a battleship. Newbies train into it with a T1 modules fail fit. Put all their ISK into it and die in this huge ship that should be able to tank in their minds. Quite a few rage quit after losing everything like that. What do battleship SP requirements have to do with that???
The simple rule 'Don't fly what you can't afford to lose' is everywhere.
If someone breaks it, and loses everything, there's really nothing anyone could've done to help the silly fellow.
If you take that lightly a game that is well-known to be hard and harsh, you would just as easily stick a C-Type invuln to your missioning destroyer, with the same result. FYI, it requires less SP than flying a BS.
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El Taron
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2015.05.03 13:42:45 -
[204] - Quote
I don't understand why some people don't get that you can have a successful pvp career just flying frigs (and T2 variants)/destroyers and cruisers.
They don't require much sp, they're extremely disposable and still very effective. Infact with how long bigger ships take to warp around and the general community's unwillingness to engage in decent fights, I rarely use anything else.
There is clearly people in this thread who haven't participated in a lot of pvp where decision making counts for much.
This topic has gone well off topic though thanks to someone who is completely wrong about how big a factor SP is, it was about how risk averse the community has become and how hard it is to get fights. |
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
23225
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Posted - 2015.05.03 13:46:33 -
[205] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Here is a problem that exists right now.
The skill wall is too low to sit in a battleship. Newbies train into it with a T1 modules fail fit. Put all their ISK into it and die in this huge ship that should be able to tank in their minds. Quite a few rage quit after losing everything like that. What do battleship SP requirements have to do with that??? The simple rule 'Don't fly what you can't afford to lose' is everywhere. If someone breaks it, and loses everything, there's really nothing anyone could've done to help the silly fellow. If you take that lightly a game that is well-known to be hard and harsh, you would just as easily stick a C-Type invuln to your missioning destroyer, with the same result. FYI, it requires less SP than flying a BS. Well ... disregarding context is it true that too many new players jump to battleships directly.
There can't be that many reasons for people to do so. Whatever they think, though, someone has to reinforce that wrong belief one way or the other. And there we reach the griefers who tell new players to head straight to battleships and do lvl4s.
New players like will most likely not even know about "don't fly what you can't afford to lose" ... ... simply again because the griefers aren't telling them.
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Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
23225
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Posted - 2015.05.03 13:47:46 -
[206] - Quote
El Taron wrote:I don't understand why some people don't get that you can have a successful pvp career just flying frigs (and T2 variants)/destroyers and cruisers.
They don't require much sp, they're extremely disposable and still very effective. Infact with how long bigger ships take to warp around and the general community's unwillingness to engage in decent fights, I rarely use anything else.
There is clearly people in this thread who haven't participated in a lot of pvp where decision making counts for much.
This topic has gone well off topic though thanks to someone who is completely wrong about how big a factor SP is, it was about how risk averse the community has become and how hard it is to get fights. I know right?
Ferni has killed drifters in a venture ... ... yet people everywhere insist "bigger is better" and keep losing.
Even though Ferni can be a hating carebear... ... she deserves credit for that.
Frigates are awesome ... ... people are nuts.
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
3857
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Posted - 2015.05.03 14:00:39 -
[207] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Well ... disregarding context is it true that too many new players jump to battleships directly. I'm no PVE expert but I think that if you're a new player doing missions, doing them in a t1-fit battleship could make sense, especially because of the tank.
When I started almost 2 years ago, I missioned for a couple of weeks. I could manage L3s in cruisers, but when I got to battlecruisers it made things significantly easier. On the other hand, when I started PVPing I immediately went back to frigs.
I did eventually lose 2 BCs to neuting rats (didn't know I had an excellent chance of warping out by spamming warp, even if they were neuting me dry).
I have to admit I definitely raged a bit (especially when I lost the second one in the exact same way LOL I'm dumb), but at the same time it was one of my most intense EVE experiences.
I hate turning new players away, but if the 'losing lots of stuff' part of EVE doesn't appeal to you (after some initial rage), you probably won't enjoy the game so much anyway.
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Otso Bakarti
Aliastra Gallente Federation
150
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Posted - 2015.05.03 14:02:04 -
[208] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Here is a problem that exists right now.
The skill wall is too low to sit in a battleship. Newbies train into it with a T1 modules fail fit. Put all their ISK into it and die in this huge ship that should be able to tank in their minds. Quite a few rage quit after losing everything like that. What do battleship SP requirements have to do with that??? The simple rule 'Don't fly what you can't afford to lose' is everywhere. If someone breaks it, and loses everything, there's really nothing anyone could've done to help the silly fellow. If you take that lightly a game that is well-known to be hard and harsh, you would just as easily stick a C-Type invuln to your missioning destroyer, with the same result. FYI, it requires less SP than flying a BS. Well ... disregarding context is it true that too many new players jump to battleships directly. There can't be that many reasons for people to do so. Whatever they think, though, someone has to reinforce that wrong belief one way or the other. And there we reach the griefers who tell new players to head straight to battleships and do lvl4s. New players like will most likely not even know about "don't fly what you can't afford to lose" ... ... simply again because the griefers aren't telling them. Let's employ you as the game decision making proctor. It's like the hall monitor, but you get to keep tabs on people making decisions like "What ship should I fly?" or "Now that I own this, how should I tank it?" Keep a list of the people who refuse to obey your divine intervention type "advice" and we'll have them all paddled! Yay! I'll bet everyone will be doing it "right" after a week of THAT!
I survived Win95
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Sykaotic
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
37
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Posted - 2015.05.03 14:05:21 -
[209] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:I would like to have a constructive dialog around what can be done to combat risk-aversion in our pvp pilots in New Eden. What I observe is...
What I have observed in 0.0, low, and high.... pvp and pve corps, the majority of players just sit in stations the majority of time logged on. Pvpers get just as burned out as pvers. I have seen it on both sides, but at the same time.... while you may see a pver actually undocked for many hours per day, you wont see pvpers undoacked anywhere near the same amount of time.
This is why the most active players ballance pve with pvp, to make isk to pvp with.
But at the end of the day, why are so many people in all secs, sitting in stations for hours a day, not doing anything? Lack of motivation to undock. I believe new content is needed. Has been the same content for many years.
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Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
23232
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Posted - 2015.05.03 14:05:48 -
[210] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Solecist Project wrote:Well ... disregarding context is it true that too many new players jump to battleships directly. I'm no PVE expert but I think that if you're a new player doing missions, doing them in a t1-fit battleship could make sense, especially because of the tank. When I started almost 2 years ago, I missioned for a couple of weeks. I could manage L3s in cruisers, but when I got to battlecruisers it made things significantly easier. On the other hand, when I started PVPing I immediately went back to frigs. I did eventually lose 2 BCs to neuting rats (didn't know I had an excellent chance of warping out by spamming warp, even if they were neuting me dry). I have to admit I definitely raged a bit (especially when I lost the second one in the exact same way LOL I'm dumb), but at the same time it was one of my most intense EVE experiences. I hate turning new players away, but if the 'losing lots of stuff' part of EVE doesn't appeal to you (after some initial rage), you probably won't enjoy the game so much anyway. But the issue is that they do not even know what they are doing. They are given bad advise.
You have to consider that the mind of a new player mostly is an empty glass.
The fact that people tell noobs to head directly to lvl4s is bad. It does not actually promote the game and people don't see much of it.
The fact that people tell noobs to keep running missions is bad. CCP confirms that. Social interaction is good, running missions for money all day isn't.
The fact that people go EASYMODE from the early on is bad. Like ... they are being told to go to battlecruisers for lvl3s.
Why? Because it's *easy*. Because it's a fast way to make money.
Of course there's no doubt that our PvE is lame as hell ... ... but for a new player it's still better to play something challenging.
All the other games are easy enough already.
It's carebearing griefers who badly influence the early days of new players.
So it's true ... battleships are way too easy to reach ... ... but fixing that would not address the actual problem.
Btw ... do lvl3s in thrashers ...
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