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Coasterbrian
Celestial Fleet
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.27 23:19:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Emeline Cabernet
still no answer from coasterbrian, id really like to know who this "horde" in esoteria is..
The Horde, as in, the BoB "resident" alliance that lives in Fountain. look it up ingame.
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I say what I mean, but I don't always mean what I say. |
Brother Vengence
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.28 03:56:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Brother Vengence on 28/10/2006 03:57:03
Originally by: Coasterbrian
I want to comment only on our motivations for engaging FIX and other BoB residents (Xelas, Horde, ect).
Relaxation.
We're not there to stay, at least not in the case of FIX. We honestly aren't interested in you. The only reason we jump your camps in 3-F, occasionally gank your carebears, and fight you in general is because you CAN be counted on to give a good fight with low, relatively even numbers. Remember that everybody needs time off the front lines to do what they enjoy most in eve. For the miners, it's mining. For the ratters, it's ratting. For those of us that play for PvP, the best fights that really get the adrenaline pounding are the ones that could go either way. FIX really provides those. We're not gonna come shoot the stations in Querious. For my part, I see Querious as FIX's region, unlike the whole Fountain situation. KDM Corp especially have brought some excellent fights. 21% structure. 
In all honesty, of course we'd rather not you start roaming ops through our space. However, we already have BoB through on a daily basis, D2 make the occasional appearance, IRON show up at least 3 times a week (die Fraxy), RA send people through on occasion, and Horde have been spotted at least once getting their asses handed to them in Esoteria. If you feel the need to jump on the bandwagon, we honestly aren't ascurred, because you and I both know that BoB doesn't really want more people on the front lines contributing to the lag.
Oh, and we are in no way scared of Horde or Xelas. Fellas, I guarantee the second you start roaming ops in our space, you're going to find your Fountain POSs with all those juicy ships in them suddenly in reinforced.
If you mean the absolution the killed the frigs that guy already said he mistook the legion for the horde
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Emeline Cabernet
Amarr
KVA Noble Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.28 06:26:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Coasterbrian
Originally by: Emeline Cabernet
still no answer from coasterbrian, id really like to know who this "horde" in esoteria is..
The Horde, as in, the BoB "resident" alliance that lives in Fountain. look it up ingame.
then look me up ingame, cus im a member there. And we have never been down in esoteria. Thats total bull****.
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Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.10.28 10:35:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Avernus
Joerd,
Mahrin has just managed to nail it down better than I think I could. Everything we have both mentioned has a definate factor in war, but our philosophy on the matter differs in that I believe that moral is the most crucial aspect of any war. For some (and I think it's a minority), territorial holdings aren't the primary factor; they are willing to give up areas for a stronger strategic positioning as a result - concentration of forces for example, or an attempt to divert your enemies towards a target of your choice that will provide you tactical benefits.
Territory is ofc always high up on the list of importance, and it is never an easy decision to withdraw from an area of space; it has to be throughly understood by your pilots why you are doing what you are doing, or moral will take a definate hit as a result. You also have to produce results to show that a strategic withdrawal was in fact the right decision to make.
Eve isn't just pvp... it's also the grandest strategic game ever created, however only a minority of Eve's population (Alliance leaders and their military commanders) get the chance to play Eve on that scale. Obviously, unlike your run of the mill RTS, a great deal of emotion is invested in the stakes of the outcome, you have responsibilities to your members, your allies, and to all the time and effort they have put into building your alliance into what it is. Tbh, it's mindblowing.
People play Eve on different levels, for some it's going out solo, others run corporations, others play the market; in alliances we have the opportunity to seriously go nuts with the possibilities this game provides us, and the alliances that have a solid understanding of strategy, economics, cause and effect, and politics, will have a serious advantage.
Fair enough then :) I'm still leaning towards the idea that "modern" warfare is more about territory, POS and logistics than most people realise, and that fleet actions are at this scale overrated, but as I keep saying I'm not going to go overboard on that because it's still an untested theory.
If you do place morale as an end rather than a means at an alliance level then yes, territory becomes less important, but that will also lead directly to losing territory if attacked. I guess a more accurate version of what I'm saying is that you can't have territory as your #2 priority and expect to meet all your goals - to be successful by your own standards you have to either have territorial control as your overriding goal, or just not care about it at all. Saying "morale is the more important than territory, but we still need to keep that territory" will lead to you losing that territory if a territorially-minded alliance attacks.
This leaves you with two realistic options - to either make territorial control your #1 priority, or to effectively abandon your territorial ambitions, either right away or at the moment you get attacked. An example of the former, at least temporarily, would be IRON's decision to get out of the sov rat-race post-EC-, or any of the serious PvP groups (hi Outbreak) who don't claim their own space. Or to live in NPC stations of course, but that's a further complication.
In any event, I'm happy to agree to disagree on this for now and see how the war works out. It's going to be interesting viewing... My prediction is that the stronger alliance politically at the "end" of this (if it reaches an end) will be the one who took the most outposts over the course of the war, with away goals scoring double.
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Avernus
Gallente
Imperium Technologies
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.10.29 00:57:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Joerd Toastius
In any event, I'm happy to agree to disagree on this for now and see how the war works out. It's going to be interesting viewing... My prediction is that the stronger alliance politically at the "end" of this (if it reaches an end) will be the one who took the most outposts over the course of the war, with away goals scoring double.
Agreed... to disagree 
My own prediction is a bit more direct. ASCN will lose this war, and splinter; on top of that, what spin has been created by ASCN in regards to this war, will have to be beared by those who were in ASCN after. That sort of thing has a way of following corps around, and it tends to carry a fairly bad odor.
Corporations that come from failed alliances, that go down in a nasty manner, often find it harder to join a new alliance later on. The corporations belonging to the leaders always have the hardest time of moving on ofc, they'll carry the greatest portion of any stigma that results from failure.
Nothing in life is quite so sweet as the taste of payback. |
qrac
Caldari
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.10.29 20:48:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Tequilapepper
Edited by: Tequilapepper on 27/10/2006 17:35:17
Originally by: qrac
Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: Lorac Caladon
...but you canFt really count on support like that from your friends forever.
FIX know that our word is 100% solid.
Sure is until you change your minds. 
PLZ as everyone stated before, try to leave the flamebaits out of this topic.
We are not going to take them, so is pointless first of all, but for you plasure I will answer to you, and that have to be conclusive.
[rest of bla bla here]
It's funny how the "pets" were left alone during that "reset" but that is beside the point. If BOB sees an advantage in attacking somebody even though they're blue to them they will probably do it and they have done it. I don't see why they wouldn't since the same people that were in charge back then are still in charge.
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Talland
0utbreak
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Posted - 2006.10.30 12:50:00 -
[97]
I think there is a strong case for the leadership of alliance's and corps to keep their membership in a fairly constant stream of trouble. It keeps the evolutionary pressure on, weeds out the dross and hangers on, and provides the best training ground for the fighters. TBH it all comes down to the fighters in the end. FIX did that well for a long time, and for so long as they were running an "everyone is a PVPer" policy they were unbeatable. I don't mean in every battle, but in morale terms.
When the discussions started about pilots/corps that didn't rock up much when QDF called because they were there as the "industrial backbone" or who thought their contribution was to provide discounted ships things went wobbly for a time.
If you get too comfortable you attract players of low moral fibre, who **** off the good guys, and run for the hills when the heat is on. If you're all neck deep in the brown stuff most of the time you learn to live with it, and you don't even notice when it hits the fan 
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Audrea
Momentum.
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Posted - 2006.10.30 12:58:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Avernus
Originally by: Joerd Toastius
In any event, I'm happy to agree to disagree on this for now and see how the war works out. It's going to be interesting viewing... My prediction is that the stronger alliance politically at the "end" of this (if it reaches an end) will be the one who took the most outposts over the course of the war, with away goals scoring double.
Agreed... to disagree
My own prediction is a bit more direct. ASCN will lose this war, and splinter; on top of that, what spin has been created by ASCN in regards to this war, will have to be beared by those who were in ASCN after. That sort of thing has a way of following corps around, and it tends to carry a fairly bad odor.
Corporations that come from failed alliances, that go down in a nasty manner, often find it harder to join a new alliance later on. The corporations belonging to the leaders always have the hardest time of moving on ofc, they'll carry the greatest portion of any stigma that results from failure.
uhm I am curious, how do new alliances know the history of applicant corp's previous alliance? to my knowledge there is no alliance history viewable like corp history is for indviduals.
If an alliance which wasnt the excutors decide not to mention their history, and said corp wasnt seen a lot on forums etc, there is no way of knowing they were part of a failed alliance.
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Save Tranquility! |
Nez Perces
Amarr
Black Spot.
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Posted - 2006.10.30 13:04:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Nez Perces on 30/10/2006 13:05:16
Originally by: Talland
I think there is a strong case for the leadership of alliance's and corps to keep their membership in a fairly constant stream of trouble. It keeps the evolutionary pressure on, weeds out the dross and hangers on, and provides the best training ground for the fighters. TBH it all comes down to the fighters in the end. FIX did that well for a long time, and for so long as they were running an "everyone is a PVPer" policy they were unbeatable. I don't mean in every battle, but in morale terms.
When the discussions started about pilots/corps that didn't rock up much when QDF called because they were there as the "industrial backbone" or who thought their contribution was to provide discounted ships things went wobbly for a time.
If you get too comfortable you attract players of low moral fibre, who **** off the good guys, and run for the hills when the heat is on. If you're all neck deep in the brown stuff most of the time you learn to live with it, and you don't even notice when it hits the fan
nice post there, spot on Talland...an alliance that doesnt keep itself sharp through constant warfare is already dead.. they just don't know it yet.
When the 'industrial' corporations gain too much prominence and become bold and demand more in terms of policy to suit themselves.. then its also a sign of things going Pete Tong.
This is why BoB excels, there are no 'industrial' types that love peace, there are only fighters and all BoB policies are geared towards gettting the good fight.
In 0.0 pvp is king everything must be subservient to the pvp aim.
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Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.30 13:35:00 -
[100]
Quote:
If an alliance (assume you mean corp) which wasnt the excutors decide not to mention their history, and said corp wasnt seen a lot on forums etc, there is no way of knowing they were part of a failed alliance.
I don't think there are many corps in Eve that have been in any alliances of consequence that would not be recognised as such by any of our members.
In short: sure there is, it's called memory and having alot of people from different parts of Eve in your alliance makes for a long and comprehensive collective memory.
Old blog |
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Swirler
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Posted - 2006.10.30 14:59:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Swirler on 30/10/2006 15:06:23
Very good post Avernus.
The reason you get to stages 4 and 5 is because someone screwed up between stages 2 and 3.
In any standing army, units need to be rotated out for rest and refit, on a regular basis, period.
If you keep units in battle too long, they suffer attrition in all the forms you mentioned, and eventually evaporate.
Alliances should regularly check the losses as well as the kills. If a particular corporation is losing big, and you ask them how they are holding up; should any of them say; 'I am broke, I need to make some money' rotate them out of the battle line. Give them 3-4 days to recoup, then order them back in. Then, rotate another corporation out.
Many players only have the weekends to play. If every weekend is sucked up with CtA's, your players will burn out fast. Make sure you hand out R&R passes to corps that are taking heavy losses and that you know are not rich. Give that corp run of a complex for a couple days, get them on a high end mining op, what ever it takes to get them into some money. It's amazing what a couple days geared towards rest and refit will do for the rest of the weeks pvp ops.
Also, each corporation has a particular strength in terms of pvp. If you treat a corporation as a fighting division, you can get a much better grip on your capabilities. One of the mistakes I see in large alliances, is that corporations lose their cohesion, and just start going in seperate directions with alliance operations, and the once tight-knit, more effective corporation, loses it's edge.
Don't do that. Assign corporations singly or multiples, to missions; hold a gate, patrol a route, etc. Keep them working together to maintain that cohesiveness. The more feared force is a 20 man corporation squad that knows how to work together, then a mash of corps in a 20 man gang with the only unifying force being the FC.
Take care of your member corporations, and they will take care of you.
Good Luck! |
Garramon
Gallente
Sturmgrenadier Inc
R i s e
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Posted - 2006.10.30 16:02:00 -
[102]
**Replying to this thread as a member of the corp Damage Industries of the failed Fountain Alliance. This post has nothing to do with current activities and is for historical purposes only.**
The first day Evolution attacked FA, we were all told to hold our fire while they went around ganking everyone. We might as well have turned it over right then, as that ended up being our standing orders for the whole "war." After a month or two, Dmgi, as a group that wanted to fight for its region, but not for those that did not want to fight for it (key part here), left the alliance/area to pursue its goals elsewhere.
The was, in fact, a coup staged to take over FA leadership at one point, but not enough support could be generated, for god knows what reason. Apparently other corps in the alliance liked the passive strategy.
The stigma of being involved in FA has followed me throughout my entire career as a pilot, which is very unfortunate as we were only doing what every good pilot is supposed to do, following orders. Unfortunately, our orders were retarded 
For some reason the fact that ~50% of the people replying to the thread fail to read and understand the point of the OP is hilarious.
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Blacklight
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.30 16:09:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Garramon
The stigma of being involved in FA has followed me throughout my entire career as a pilot, which is very unfortunate as we were only doing what every good pilot is supposed to do, following orders. Unfortunately, our orders were retarded
It's ok Garramon, I still love you, stigma and all 
Blog
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SwindonBadger
0utbreak
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Posted - 2006.10.31 11:22:00 -
[104]
Edited by: SwindonBadger on 31/10/2006 11:24:15
nice post av,
U ever think about leaving the alliace relms once uve spred all your wisdon to become a more dark and satnic yarghhh>?
and er on topic,, moral is very important ! once this goes its easier for the strong to finish them off, once u start seeing the *****s apear it tends to drive the hardend to work faster and open up the woonds. Strong leaders will be a big part of moral, the boss could tell me that were fighting 4000 people with 1 40th of the numbers, if I know hes a weekminded fool my moral is broken before stuff happens, if I have faith and the guy inspires me Ill be eager and ready to kill 4000 people. The indevidual pilot also very important it dosent take many bad eggs to make the rest to start stinking,
.... boom ..... zap ratatat boom and all those noises
er eddit Kracks? is like evey word naughty for ccp.. friggn A
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Avernus
Gallente
Imperium Technologies
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.10.31 16:03:00 -
[105]
Heya Swin,
Nah, I once considered leaving FIX, but that was in a different time, it was very different back then... almost joined Battle Angels when that was going on. FIX was a different beast than it is now, and I was pretty burnt out from dealing with various Alliance concerns; the corp was also at a low point in our history, too many people causing too much stress, those people are no longer with us though. Both FIX and IT are riding a continious high point atm, I'd have to be slightly mental to want to be anywhere else.
Nothing in life is quite so sweet as the taste of payback. |
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