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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.23 12:32:00 -
[1]
I've been a bit of a connoisseur of forum whines recently- while they're generally irritating and daft, they do tend to have some decent points that come up repeatedly. 2 problems in particular, you see coming up a lot.
1) Sniper fleets. Its not the fleets sniping that is the problem- if CCP hadn't wanted snipers, they wouldn't have let you shoot that far. The problem is over-safety. A sniper fleet will sit 150km from a gate, prepared to mow down whatever comes through. Theres no problem there. BUT, they'll all be perfectly alligned to warp. This means, even if you get a covert ops ship on top of them ready to warp to them, they can warp off instantly the second they see anyone begin to warp in- following the only tactic in the game to get a close range ship in to a long range fleet still results in 99% of the fleet getting away. Futher, as they're all alligned, the second any of them begin to take primary fire, they can warp out- no way to stop this, seeing as both bumping and Warp Scrambling are short ranged. Thus, sniper combat has simply too many advantages over short range combat.
2) That instant-warp web trick. Its, pretty simply, a bug. Its not a PARTICULARLY bad one, but it is irritating. Webbing someone should result in them slowing down, not warping away faster. This is caused directly by the warp-allignment mechanic- you only need o reach 66% of your total speed (or whatever it is) before you can warp; if you are already travelling at a decent speed when you're webbed, you are suddenly instantly travelling at 100%+ of your top speed, so you warp instantly.
The solution that I thought of all of 5 minutes ago (hence typing this) would be making it so that, when you click "warp", your ship instantly goes to 0m/s, before you start alligning (sort off like what happens just before you are sent flying by an acceleration gate). Suddenly, pre-alligning a fleet wont make you immune to being ambushed, and the web-trick wont help, seeing as you'll have to start from 0m/s as soon as you want to warp (which will take a more sensible amount of time when webbed). Bingo.
Anyhow, it's not very elegant a solution, and it probably has a few flaws (being a 5 minute idea ) but I think its a good start. Feel free to discuss (read "flame"). -----------------------------------------------
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Elliott Manchild
omen.
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Posted - 2006.10.23 12:37:00 -
[2]
So that would mean in big fleet fights, anyone FC's call primary will die. No need for tacklers because a mix of lag from when you click warp and actually having to get up to speed.
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Chewan Mesa
Beagle Corp R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2006.10.23 12:39:00 -
[3]
If ya have a dictor that drops a bubble on their snipers and the FC doesnt already have the finger on the "Warp Gang" button they're stuck.
Dont really see a problem there.
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Xerpex
Revelation Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.23 12:44:00 -
[4]
Great, I've always wanted a way to stop my blasterthron when it gets in range (mwd + bs means it takes a bit to slow down...)
warp, then cancel it, instant stop.
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Zarch AlDain
Friends of Everyone
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Posted - 2006.10.23 13:27:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Chewan Mesa If ya have a dictor that drops a bubble on their snipers and the FC doesnt already have the finger on the "Warp Gang" button they're stuck.
Dont really see a problem there.
Unless the targets are in low sec where warp bubbles don't work...
Zarch AlDain
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.23 14:16:00 -
[6]
Yah, so it isn't a GREAT solution
But I do hate people pre-alligning. Its just a silly little loop-hole that lets you avoid alligning to warp- something meant to represent the speed of a ship in warp. But twitch-escapes from interdictor bubbles and easy escape for primaries arn't good reasons for it to stay in, imo.. -----------------------------------------------
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Chewan Mesa
Beagle Corp R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2006.10.23 14:18:00 -
[7]
Personally I'd expect the coming changes to range, aka lowering it and bringing the fights closer from sniping-fests should help this problem too.
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Xs 142
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Posted - 2006.10.23 14:22:00 -
[8]
Just lower the accuracy of sniper weapons ALOT and bump up the damage, a bit, that should solve it.
Originally by: Oveur Eternally yours, The other dumbass
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EndersGame
Amarr Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.23 14:45:00 -
[9]
In the game Dark Space you could emergency warp out 1000km in the direction you were facing in. But not only did it damage your ship but it prevented you from warping anywhere for about 1 minute.
The hotkey was ctrl+e
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Paddlefoot Aeon
Neogen Industries Serenity Fallen
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Posted - 2006.10.23 14:55:00 -
[10]
Lets look at your request:
"Lets prevent ships from pointing in a specific direction"
...cause that's all aligning really is.
Also, if a ship is sniping using anything but missiles (torps), it is most likely stationary so as to decrease transveral velocity and raise the hit percentage. Those sniper ships (BS, Eagle, others) are usually stationary, only entering warp when threatented.
In fleet combat, the FC will usually have the Covops create a warp in point on the initial primary target, and then order the fleet to warp to Optimals on the target. That puts the Snipers out at 100km, the EW at around 35-40km on the target, and tacklers and short range fighters right in the thick of things. Most of the time, the group being attacked is worrying about the close range ships, and ignoring the snipers.
Now, as for a solo BS sniping at a gate camp, here is my solution... have the covops equip a scram. Yes, the covops has to decloak, but if he is orbiting, no long range ship will be able to track him, and that will lock the sniper down long enough to get more points on him.
Also, lets face it... the sniper ships are always fitted for 2 things.. survival and Dammage. Most sniping BS will have Damage Mods and WCS in the lows, and sensor boosters in the Meds. In this case, you will need to get at least 3 points on the BS to hold it in place, which may be time enough for the BS pilot to get clear.
You want to get rid of snipers.... you should be allowed to warp to any ship that has you targeted... regardless of if they are in your gang. It is nuts that you can't warp to a ship at 150km, but can warp to the can which that ship just dropped. This will allow tacklers to get out to the snipers, get those 3 points on them, and bring them down.
Just my 2 cents...
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Mallick
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Posted - 2006.10.23 15:01:00 -
[11]
Rather add a x sec "warp core recharge" when activiating warp drive. Just like in Freelancer, your "warp engine" has to recharge before activation.
Maybe 2 sec on frigate, 3 sec on cruiser and 4 sec on battleship?
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.23 15:11:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Paddlefoot Aeon Lets look at your request:
"Lets prevent ships from pointing in a specific direction"
...cause that's all aligning really is.
Also, if a ship is sniping using anything but missiles (torps), it is most likely stationary so as to decrease transveral velocity and raise the hit percentage. Those sniper ships (BS, Eagle, others) are usually stationary, only entering warp when threatented.
In fleet combat, the FC will usually have the Covops create a warp in point on the initial primary target, and then order the fleet to warp to Optimals on the target. That puts the Snipers out at 100km, the EW at around 35-40km on the target, and tacklers and short range fighters right in the thick of things. Most of the time, the group being attacked is worrying about the close range ships, and ignoring the snipers.
Now, as for a solo BS sniping at a gate camp, here is my solution... have the covops equip a scram. Yes, the covops has to decloak, but if he is orbiting, no long range ship will be able to track him, and that will lock the sniper down long enough to get more points on him.
Also, lets face it... the sniper ships are always fitted for 2 things.. survival and Dammage. Most sniping BS will have Damage Mods and WCS in the lows, and sensor boosters in the Meds. In this case, you will need to get at least 3 points on the BS to hold it in place, which may be time enough for the BS pilot to get clear.
You want to get rid of snipers.... you should be allowed to warp to any ship that has you targeted... regardless of if they are in your gang. It is nuts that you can't warp to a ship at 150km, but can warp to the can which that ship just dropped. This will allow tacklers to get out to the snipers, get those 3 points on them, and bring them down.
Just my 2 cents...
Firstly, by alligning I do not mean pointing your ship in a cerrtain direction. To be alligned is to be heading in the direction of your warp-to target at full speed (or over 2/3rds of your full speed, anyhow), which allows you to warp instantly. Where you're pointed is only half the matter of alligning, and the unimportant half at that.
In sniper fleet combat, very rarely do tacklers ever get into range- the secon a sniper fleet feels they've been compromised (i.e, too many ships near to them) they simply warp out, instantly. And its all very good calling primaries, but (lag permitting) an alligned primary need never lose their ship, seeing as they can insta warp out the second they know they've been called.
On the plus side, atleast snipers will no longer be able to use WCS- the WCS nerf utterly stops that. -----------------------------------------------
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Hippo117
Caldari Wings of Redemption 9th Fleet
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Posted - 2006.10.23 16:00:00 -
[13]
Just a random aside since you mentioned webbing sending you to warp faster... Loading 6 launchers with javelin's (torps or rockets) makes you more or less instawarp too. Just kindof humorous to see it happen. --------------
Booby > Rokh
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Tar om
Minmatar Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.23 16:10:00 -
[14]
The tradeoff is that your transversal is raised. Important for Arties. -- We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
"The belief in the possibility of a short decisive war appears to be one of the most ancient and dangerous of human illusions." |
Paari Cuman
Windsor Trade Organization The Imperial Order
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Posted - 2006.10.23 16:45:00 -
[15]
I hate these posts of people who whine and bitc about game mechanics not working their way.
DEAL WITH IT!
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.23 17:25:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Paari Cuman I hate these posts of people who whine and bitc about game mechanics not working their way.
DEAL WITH IT!
Lol, its only in game as a bug. I live with it as it is- but does that mean we must always live with it? Bugs are for fixing, you know........ -----------------------------------------------
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Viktor Fyretracker
Caldari Worms Corp
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Posted - 2006.10.23 17:31:00 -
[17]
being able to warp at a sniper would be nifty, would certainly let a T2 Torp Raven lay the pain.
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Sgt Napalm
ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.23 17:59:00 -
[18]
My name is Sgt.Napalm, I am a sniper.
I disagree with this whines post.
The End
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.23 18:06:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Sgt Napalm My name is Sgt.Napalm, I am a sniper.
I disagree with this whines post.
The End
Lol, how am I whining? I like sniper fleets, and I honestly don't think the webber-warp trick is all that important. It just bugs me that a bug like this is in the game, call me a perfectionist
I dislike people having an advantage through silly bugs- alligned sniper fleets are pretty difficult to *actually fight*, except with other sniper fleets. And is it right that theres a tactic which is clearly the best tactic?
I mean, Snipers are immune to damage from all but other pimped-out-snipers, out of EWAR range, out of Nos range, out of scrambler and web range, out of interdictor bubble range, out of bump range, and generally far too awesome for their own good. The fact they can insta-warp from some ancient bug aswell as all this is just daft. -----------------------------------------------
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Sgt Napalm
ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.23 18:07:00 -
[20]
My advice is get used to it because it's only going to get worse.
Your only counter is to warp out if possible. With larget sniper ships the lock times work to your advantage.
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.23 18:13:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Sgt Napalm Your only counter is to warp out if possible. With larget sniper ships the lock times work to your advantage.
Problem with this is that most (read: all) snipers use Sensor Boosters on their setups- which (bizzarely) increases lock-time aswell as range. So ironically, the futher away you snipe from, the closer to insta-lock you get...........
Ok, that one was a whine, sorry about that -----------------------------------------------
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Razin
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Posted - 2006.10.23 18:27:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Patch86 2) That instant-warp web trick. Its, pretty simply, a bug. Its not a PARTICULARLY bad one, but it is irritating. Webbing someone should result in them slowing down, not warping away faster. This is caused directly by the warp-allignment mechanic- you only need o reach 66% of your total speed (or whatever it is) before you can warp; if you are already travelling at a decent speed when you're webbed, you are suddenly instantly travelling at 100%+ of your top speed, so you warp instantly.
This is a pretty silly statement. If this was a bug and it was fixed, as you would suggest, a single web would be all anyone would need to keep any ship from warping, making the 2-point (7.5 km) warpscrams (or WCS) obsolete.
I donÆt agree with your ôincrease time to warpö idea either. There are other ways to deal with snipers that have already been mentioned in numerous threads like this one (including some module changes that are being discussed at CCP).
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MysticNZ
Solstice Systems Development Concourse
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Posted - 2006.10.23 18:40:00 -
[23]
Your funny. Sniper fleets are not aligning unless a cloaker has jumped in to system. If so, touch luck. Snipers are always easy to take out. -=====- Xorus is teh nub :D I heard that *beats player with big stick* now be a good carebear and mine me some veldspar - Xorus |
Scoundrelus
Unseen Jihad
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Posted - 2006.10.23 18:44:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Patch86
1) Sniper fleets. Its not the fleets sniping that is the problem- if CCP hadn't wanted snipers, they wouldn't have let you shoot that far. The problem is over-safety. A sniper fleet will sit 150km from a gate, prepared to mow down whatever comes through. Theres no problem there. BUT, they'll all be perfectly alligned to warp. This means, even if you get a covert ops ship on top of them ready to warp to them, they can warp off instantly the second they see anyone begin to warp in- following the only tactic in the game to get a close range ship in to a long range fleet still results in 99% of the fleet getting away. Futher, as they're all alligned, the second any of them begin to take primary fire, they can warp out- no way to stop this, seeing as both bumping and Warp Scrambling are short ranged. Thus, sniper combat has simply too many advantages over short range combat.
I have to disagree with you completely. Snipers are easy to kill. All I you need is a fast locking ship and a covert ops ship. Think about it, once you scramble them its over unless they have stabs (which they won't in Kali). Snipers only hit at long range so a close range ship will easily dispatch them, the main thing is since they're in a BS (Sniping HAC's happen but not often) even aligned it still takes them a few seconds to get to warping speed. They can't be aligned and max speed because it would offset their sniping location. Takes my BS like 6 seconds to get to speed, and you can easily lock a BS in like 2. Furthermore, BUMP THEM.
=============================================== We are Watching You. |
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.23 18:49:00 -
[25]
Originally by: MysticNZ Your funny. Sniper fleets are not aligning unless a cloaker has jumped in to system. If so, touch luck. Snipers are always easy to take out.
You fight sniper fleets often? You're funny
I've only ever fought one alliance's (RA) sniper fleets before. They would be alligned from the second the fighting starts (possibly earlier, but I wouldn't know, only being there when the fighting starts ), would warp out (and back in) every ship that started taking damage (the only time the primary ever actually went down is when the lag monster deamed it neccessary), and as soon as you started to warp towards them (such as a cov-ops ship) they'd all warp out, unless they'd already killed enough to win in close range too. Not a whine against RA, we did much the same thing when we snipered.
And anyhow, having had a little while to think about it, I don't like my suggestion anymore. If it wern't mine, I'd probably flame it -----------------------------------------------
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FeralShadow
M. Corp Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.23 18:52:00 -
[26]
what about pre-aligning for warping a fleet while travelling? If the pre-aligning was done away with totally, then the fleet wouldn't be able to travel together. What a pain! I personally think it's good the way it is, i know personally in battles we have our own snipers ontop of the gate that counteract the enemy snipers. We may not be able to lock them down and hold them, but they can't do that to us on the gate either. Just warp out if you see them lock you, and if you're in anything over a cruiser you should be able to take a few volleys and still be able to warp out without dying. Anything cruiser and under can warp out fast enough so they dont die. It's really not that bad. Now then, I do think it's kind of silly that you can't warp to any object that's 150km away or more. I dont know a solution to that, however. _______________________________________________
"If you want to taste the ground, feel free to attack." - Kenshin Himura
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Plutoinum
German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.10.23 19:41:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Plutoinum on 23/10/2006 19:41:48 Well about webbing, jsut don't webb someone, who's aligning to warp out. There is no point to web him anyway usally. Either he's trying to approach the gate, trying to move out of a bubble, or orbitting you in a fight, then web, otherwise don't web.
And yes, in 0.0 dictors solve the warp out problem quite nice. In low sec not ... but low sec sniping is borked anyway. Place 'long range dampening arrays' at the gates in low. sec or increase the sentry range to 350km. Problem solved
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MissileRus
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Posted - 2006.10.23 19:47:00 -
[28]
Edited by: MissileRus on 23/10/2006 19:55:10 Edited by: MissileRus on 23/10/2006 19:53:34 close range battles takes more balls.. primary/secondary doesnt work and instant warp off doesnt work. its chaos and ccp should aim towards it
we could call all fleet battles carebear activeties as they wont risk going close and personal where it takes more skills. CCP should reward close range more then long range and add a timer or something to initiate warps, like 15 secs before you start warping, depending on ship type. could also use engine strenght or something to make more ship stats make a difference. but it wont nerf long range carebearness
close range should do more damage then long range. i would like to see all long range weapons nerfed or all close range buffed(later is prolly better because of the hp changes). fleet battles should be aimed towards getting close range not long range, and if close range battles become attractive more ship types will be used and battles will be more then just hitting f1f2f3 on the same target for 20-60 minutes etc. it will be more fun and chaotic, with new stuff like squadron commanders etc it could be real cool. but it is true aligning needs to be nerfed if alliances are even going to consider going for close range. just nerfing range doesnt help mutch, close range should be mor beneficial then long range. but perhaps kali already has some goodies to make close range battles more beneficial.. sry for calling long range range guys carebears but realy u are, long range is carebear atm thats why everyone does it, close range doesnt have benefits and it takes mroe skill and you cant realy be half asleep calling people primary/secondary and see a tiny poff. im hoping kali will make me usefull in fleet action, i refuse to snipe thus im lonely and risk more, but i get less rewarded then snipers that risk less so realy the risk vs reward considering long/short range is off balance. long range should destroy more items and do less damage then short range
anyways those that didnt want to real all that junk i can say kali will probably have goodies to make battles more fun, less booring, less risk free, less focus fire and more chaotic. if hopefully we will start seeing more close range fights that takes more balls, i hope they will make good use of the squadron stuff and have small groups doing their things instead of: primary gyqegw23, secondary popotiew4342.. Zzz..
Originally by: Plutoinum
And yes, in 0.0 dictors solve the warp out problem quite nice. In low sec not ... but low sec sniping is borked anyway. Place 'long range dampening arrays' at the gates in low. sec or increase the sentry range to 350km. Problem solved
i like that idea alot! but sentry range should be reduced not increased then it would work great for both pirates and people traveling(im not a pirate btw, i just like close range..).
i meant both dampeners and reduced range of sentrys would be great together in low-sec..
--------------------------- 4. i like pizza |
Plutoinum
German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.10.23 19:55:00 -
[29]
@Missilerus I suppose CCP forces us to fight at closer ranges soon anyway and then it's quite easy to get into the range of the snipers with ceptors or an interdictor.
The HP changes also work a bit against a snipe 2-salves and warp away tactics, because the snipers have to do more damage in the same time to be successfull.
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Kylania
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.10.23 19:56:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Paddlefoot Aeon Lets look at your request:
"Lets prevent ships from pointing in a specific direction"
...cause that's all aligning really is.
The solution to this already exists!! The Heisenberg uncertainty principle!
While sniping you know you're at 0 speed, so therefore you have no idea which direction you're facing. As soon as you start to warp away you know which direction you've going and you suddendly don't know how fast you're going. Once you finally enter warp you'll again know how fast you are going and whammo, random direction!
Problem solved! -- Lil Miner Newbie Skills Roadmap | CCG Card Lookup |
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