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Miss President
SOLARIS ASTERIUS
20
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Posted - 2011.12.04 19:37:00 -
[31] - Quote
I think an update from CCP is due on their action against bots.
I've been doing some exploration and guess what I see, some noob corp within a renter alliance of one of the power blogs, with corp and player names slightly more creative then before. Players of this corp spread through different systems ratting in drakes. ALso the system they rat in doesn't really belong to them but is empty from other owners.
Here is an issue, once CCP increased pressure on BOTs, bot also have probably got more creative - so I wonder if CCP has stopped upped their game and is working harder.
Additionally, I was reading one of the post on eve-o forums listed a bot source - which I'm not going to repeat , but it's not a direct website, but a source - I was curious and checked it out - the bot seller claims 100% no detection by CCP - and buyer feedback is all positive. I still wouldn't even try it or trust it from not stealing my passwords and credit cards credentials - but I'm sure other people just buy it - and looking at the site the program is very popular in feedback - verifiable feedback btw nothing fake.
This tells me CCP is greatly behind their game. This also tells me that all PR they did about fighting bots was only temporary to keep players down - because they were loosing subscriptions.
In short,bots still there- CCP is quiet. Hopefully an update will come forth from CCP - proving that they are still working hard on the issue and perhaps issuing some statistics.
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Borun Tal
One More Corp
13
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Posted - 2011.12.04 19:52:00 -
[32] - Quote
If mining bots: kill them. Rejoice in the awesomeness that is King of Killmails, if you're into that tripe.
If missioning bots, follow them on missions, loot/salvage, profit.
ps: check Kamio. Loaded with ice mining bots. You're welcome.
pps: can't wait for Hulkageddon. |
Psychophantic
174
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Posted - 2011.12.04 20:01:00 -
[33] - Quote
They did.
They gave am all another bot for 60 days. |
Osunn
Syrkos Technologies Joint Venture Conglomerate
3
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Posted - 2011.12.04 20:09:00 -
[34] - Quote
I offer a partial solution. You run sql queries on the db and look for anomalies. Takes a little effort and you run the queries on a mirror. You will pick up botters for follow up. This will work in most cases if you design the queries properly. I used to do this for a living though obviously not on CCP servers.
It really is that simple. Its very hard to evade because you are looking at results not actions.
My two cents. |
Nullity
The Immaculate Church of Cuppishism
5
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Posted - 2011.12.04 20:10:00 -
[35] - Quote
I agree that the botting problem is getting completely out of hand, and has to be dealt with in some radical way. I recently came across an entire forum dedicated to assisting people with botting in EVE. Perhaps I was naive before, but I never knew that botting was rampant enough to generate an entire subcommunity assisting in its practice. That is completely unacceptable, and very disheartening to see people ruin a game as unique as EVE with rampant cheating.
Edit: I think it's worth saying that I actually attempted to notify CCP of the forum I mentioned, but have yet to hear of any response.
Opertone wrote: ISK farming, by bots or by forced labour is immoral act which undermines EvE's open end economic system.
Very true. |
Zevina
Atomic Core Industries and Science
6
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Posted - 2011.12.04 20:17:00 -
[36] - Quote
I really cant see what the 60-day trial has to do with bots. You were able to create alt accounts with 51 days for free for years now. And there definetly is nothing financially rewarding in Eve which you could do with 2 months training. (apart from scamming, luck or special one-time activities)
I guess the most hate against botters comes from players which have a hard time getting enough ISK to pay their bills. They think botting must be the easiest and most lucrative thing ever and often enough when they see a wealthy player they scream "BOT BOT". Its nonsense... Im sure there are botters in Eve, but likely a very small percentage of how much people think there are. |
Nullity
The Immaculate Church of Cuppishism
5
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Posted - 2011.12.04 20:19:00 -
[37] - Quote
Zevina wrote: I guess the most hate against botters comes from players which have a hard time getting enough ISK to pay their bills. They think botting must be the easiest and most lucrative thing ever and often enough when they see a wealthy player they scream "BOT BOT". Its nonsense... Im sure there are botters in Eve, but likely a very small percentage of how what people think there are.
The hate comes from the fact that such a practice is against the rules, and cheating in a game as unique like this is a pretty cruel thing to do. It gives them an obvious an unfair advantage. There's no other games like EVE really. Ruin this, and we have nothing left.
As for how many botters there actually are, see my previous post regarding people using bots having a subcommunity forum. It's sickening. |
Evei Shard
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
25
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Posted - 2011.12.04 20:24:00 -
[38] - Quote
Botting was fixed completely back around the release of Incarna when CCP added the "Report Bot" feature. Therefore there are no more bots in the game, as everyone knows that when you use "Report Bot" that CCP jumps right on it to determine if the reported user is a bot.
No really. That's what happens
CCP wouldn't lie to us, you all know that.
Profit favors the prepared |
Zevina
Atomic Core Industries and Science
6
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Posted - 2011.12.04 20:30:00 -
[39] - Quote
Nah Im not saying botting werent a very very bad thing. It sure is unfair for all who arent and after all its a multiplayer game and playing along with a bot kinda contradicts the idea behind an MMO.
But my point is I dont feel like botting is such a great problem in Eve and often people just exaggerate. For instance a few months back I was farming belt rats in a very quiet low sec system and some guy enters local. So I warp to my safespot, turn the cloak on and go grab some coffee from my kitchen. When Im back in front of my computer the whole local chat is spammed with some broken english "bot bot" bragging and a another few minutes later a GM actually shows up and literally asks me if I was botting. That was probably the most rediculous thing I ever experienced in my Eve life and I guess in some form it happens rather regularly. |
Wolf Kruol
Capsuleer Legions Of New Eden GREATER ITAMO MAFIA
1
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Posted - 2011.12.04 20:30:00 -
[40] - Quote
I try every chance I get. |
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Opertone
Signal 7
36
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Posted - 2011.12.07 20:53:00 -
[41] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:Opertone wrote:yeah CCP, cut all accounts which generate consistent income stream, if wallet is increasing, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, then terminate this account. ... you do realise that if someone is selling a ton of things on the market, their wallet can increase on a 24/7 basis, right?
of course, this is why GM only reacts to Mission and NPC bounties, if the income stream doesn't want to stop, then GM gets a list of all offenders. Does a manual check on them, if they do run bots, terminate account.
I tried to be logical, but obviously missed some things. What you think is not what others get.
edit: CCP needs to hire/make macro stopping software. Client side, server side, GM monthly reviewed list of suspects. Keep EvE quality. |
Astrid Stjerna
Teraa Matar
122
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Posted - 2011.12.07 20:55:00 -
[42] - Quote
Zevina wrote:broken english "bot bot" bragging and a another few minutes later a GM actually shows up and literally asks me if I was botting.
That's actually a technique that many companies employ these days. Since what looks like a bot may just be someone with poor English skills (or even soemone that's just temporarily away from the keyboard), the general practice is to confirm that the person is a bot by asking them a question that requires a specific and direct response. |
Zevina
Atomic Core Industries and Science
7
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Posted - 2011.12.07 21:37:00 -
[43] - Quote
Astrid Stjerna wrote:Zevina wrote:broken english "bot bot" bragging and a another few minutes later a GM actually shows up and literally asks me if I was botting.
That's actually a technique that many companies employ these days. Since what looks like a bot may just be someone with poor English skills (or even soemone that's just temporarily away from the keyboard), the general practice is to confirm that the person is a bot by asking them a question that requires a specific and direct response.
Yeah but isnt that stupid? What if I had stayed in the kitchen for say 15 minutes to prepare lunch and thus didnt respond? Have my account banned for being hungry? When I think about it there are even more threads on the forum from people complaining about being unfairly banned than people complaining about bots. That reminds me a bit of medieval witch hunting. |
Rykuss
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
10
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Posted - 2011.12.07 21:50:00 -
[44] - Quote
Zevina wrote:Astrid Stjerna wrote:Zevina wrote:broken english "bot bot" bragging and a another few minutes later a GM actually shows up and literally asks me if I was botting.
That's actually a technique that many companies employ these days. Since what looks like a bot may just be someone with poor English skills (or even soemone that's just temporarily away from the keyboard), the general practice is to confirm that the person is a bot by asking them a question that requires a specific and direct response. Yeah but isnt that stupid? What if I had stayed in the kitchen for say 15 minutes to prepare lunch and thus didnt respond? Have my account banned for being hungry? When I think about it there are even more threads on the forum from people complaining about being unfairly banned than people complaining about bots. That reminds me a bit of medieval witch hunting.
No, they don't ban you for being hungry or any other silly reason you come up with. Chances are, you've been investigated many times and don't even realise it. Can I have your vindicator? |
Hainnz
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
9
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Posted - 2011.12.07 21:51:00 -
[45] - Quote
I can't imagine they would ban someone for idling while they make a sammich, but if a ship is acquiring targets and activating modules and the GM hasn't received a timely reply then that would look suspicious. |
Astrid Stjerna
Teraa Matar
122
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Posted - 2011.12.07 23:07:00 -
[46] - Quote
Zevina wrote:Astrid Stjerna wrote:Zevina wrote:broken english "bot bot" bragging and a another few minutes later a GM actually shows up and literally asks me if I was botting.
That's actually a technique that many companies employ these days. Since what looks like a bot may just be someone with poor English skills (or even soemone that's just temporarily away from the keyboard), the general practice is to confirm that the person is a bot by asking them a question that requires a specific and direct response. Yeah but isnt that stupid? What if I had stayed in the kitchen for say 15 minutes to prepare lunch and thus didnt respond? Have my account banned for being hungry? When I think about it there are even more threads on the forum from people complaining about being unfairly banned than people complaining about bots. That reminds me a bit of medieval witch hunting.
(To be perfectly blunt, most of those 'unfairly banned' complaints are from people who were legitimately banned and just won't admit that they got caught with their hand in the cookie jar).
Just don't put yourself in a position of risk. Log out for those 15 minutes. If you're away from the keyboard long enough to raise questions, CCP has no choice but to act, whether it's a ban or just a warning.
:Edit: The grammars! They do nothing! |
Opertone
Signal 7
38
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Posted - 2011.12.08 06:33:00 -
[47] - Quote
EvE is only fun because of its trademark universe created by players. Open ended economic system, stuff is hand crafted by actual players and values are determined by supply and demand.
If say ISK is over supplied by bots, i.e. machines, then value of human input into making his own isk is very low. Barely make any money, exchange rate is exaggerated.
If somehow ISK influx is counter balanced by Commodity influx (Bots mine, bots farm, bots do PI), then bots' production volumes and efficiency exceeds all player abilities. Player participation has minimal effect, making these professions effectively dead. Players who do not run bots are at disadvantage, because the quality of gameplay is compromised. They are forced to avoid basic forms of pve, while larger alliances with bots to rely on seize all political and economical power. |
K Suri
Red Gooey Bananas
47
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Posted - 2011.12.08 06:58:00 -
[48] - Quote
ACY GTMI wrote:FORGET BOTS!!! (Caps intended.)
The bot problem is a CCP problem. Not a player problem.
We keep paying them.
They keep saying they are going to do something to fix it.
They don't.
We keep paying them anyway.
From kind of an Icelandic point of view . . . makes sense to me. Not once. Not ONCE have I EVER seen you say something intelligent. If you had half a moment of lucid thught you would know the following >> Bots cannot be stopped at the proverbial click of a mouse because the tasks they do are so mundane and so trivial that it is easy to mimic!
YOU need to report them and stop being so pigheaded about whose responsibility it is. If it's YOUR game being ruined either
1) actively fight the bots. 2) gtfo. (i.e. stop "paying" CCP!)
Bullshit like this does NOT make it any better. CCP are neither stupid nor tolerant about such matters. Learn that much yeah!!
PS: I reckon CCP really need to start reporting who, where and when bots are nailed. It will firstly tell everyone they are on it and two, put the fear of a ban on botters if they see it happening often enough.
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Shag Sheep
0
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Posted - 2011.12.09 08:59:00 -
[49] - Quote
So let me get this straight.
1) The game mechanics encourage the greifing of new players and indy pilots no matter where they are. 2) Other players kill these types of pilots for giggles and the increase they feel in their ePenis. 3) CCP and those players then get upset because the indy pilots they encourage to be killed, find another safer way to play.
I have to ask.
-Is your ePenis not looking so big now that the kids you used to freely smack around are now thinking smarter than you? -Crying to mommy now that you can't quite get your hands on them to ruin their day? -Are you enjoying the game less now that someone else has the ability to "cheat" you out what's rightfully yours as the biggest kid on the block?
Oo I know, start killing off new players ( potential payers) for giggles... Oh wait, that's already been happening and encouraged.
Hmmm...
For CCP and greifers of indy pilots... you have done your best to take any fun and enjoyment out of something that is a fundamental part of the game and economy. What did you think would happen.
There's a great saying...
You made your bed, now sleep in it. |
Soldarius
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
85
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Posted - 2011.12.09 11:18:00 -
[50] - Quote
Get rid of instant local intel. That should do the trick.
Sorry can't resist: Shag Sheep. lol. Come on over here Shaggy. You've been a ba-a-a-a-d girl. Time for your punishment. "How do you kill that which has no life?" |
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Kitty Funtimes
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
7
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Posted - 2011.12.09 13:04:00 -
[51] - Quote
What if you simply remove all npc's from the belts and put them into sites you have to scan with probes? All the game mechanics already exist and although I'm not an expert I think it would be extremely hard to program a bot to scan with probes, and pretty easy for CCP to make the change.
You could still have npc's show up in belts if there's mining going on etc etc
Just a thought. |
Kalle Demos
Helix Protocol
1
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Posted - 2011.12.09 13:07:00 -
[52] - Quote
If you are that bothered about botting, why not create your own bot that is better than theirs? CCP cant do **** against bots, accept it |
Riley Moore
Perkone Caldari State
31
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Posted - 2011.12.09 13:12:00 -
[53] - Quote
We must kill Sarah Conner. Need Researched BPO's? Be it drones, ammo, charges, you name it, visit my forum store now! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=445524#post445524 |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. The Lostboys
174
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Posted - 2011.12.09 13:57:00 -
[54] - Quote
Zevina wrote:Astrid Stjerna wrote:Zevina wrote:broken english "bot bot" bragging and a another few minutes later a GM actually shows up and literally asks me if I was botting.
That's actually a technique that many companies employ these days. Since what looks like a bot may just be someone with poor English skills (or even soemone that's just temporarily away from the keyboard), the general practice is to confirm that the person is a bot by asking them a question that requires a specific and direct response. Yeah but isnt that stupid? What if I had stayed in the kitchen for say 15 minutes to prepare lunch and thus didnt respond? Have my account banned for being hungry? When I think about it there are even more threads on the forum from people complaining about being unfairly banned than people complaining about bots. That reminds me a bit of medieval witch hunting.
If your ship is being controlled, switching roids, targeting and shooting NPCs, warping about, then you are not AFK and should be able to respond to a GM convo. CCP employees should never proclaim a feature to be awesome. Only subscribers should. Subscribers can never answer a question posed to CCP. Only CCP can. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. The Lostboys
174
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Posted - 2011.12.09 14:06:00 -
[55] - Quote
Kitty Funtimes wrote:What if you simply remove all npc's from the belts and put them into sites you have to scan with probes? All the game mechanics already exist and although I'm not an expert I think it would be extremely hard to program a bot to scan with probes, and pretty easy for CCP to make the change.
You could still have npc's show up in belts if there's mining going on etc etc
Just a thought.
There is a basic problem with all ideas that involve changing the game to make botting impossible.
A bot is world chess champion. A bot is world Jeopardy! champion. A bot can drive rover on Mars. Google has bots driving cars in traffic.
All of those are harder than any Eve game mechanic. Eve simply cannot be made so complex it cannot be botted, and still be playable by a person.
CCP Sreegs has said that his detection method is to look for clients doing stuff a player could not do, rather than players doing stuff that could not be done by bots.
CCP employees should never proclaim a feature to be awesome. Only subscribers should. Subscribers can never answer a question posed to CCP. Only CCP can. |
Pinaculus
The High and Mighty
69
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Posted - 2011.12.09 16:05:00 -
[56] - Quote
I find it amusing that we humans are even being automated out of our own hobbies. I know sometimes it's difficult to realize just how much you spend on incidental things each month or year, but seriously, EVE is very cheap entertainment compared to most things... If you are a smoker, smoke one less pack a week and pay for EVE, with money left over to pick up a cheap bundle of flowers for the EVE widow upstairs. |
Gevlin
EXPCS Corp SpaceMonkey's Alliance
92
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Posted - 2012.02.06 10:21:00 -
[57] - Quote
in regards to market bots.
I notice the brokers fee for changing an order is only 100isk no matter the size of the order.
Raising an order by .01 is then via bot is worth while....
but hell if I was a broker working on a 1 billion of assest and joe smoe want me to alter his bid by .01 Isk. I would charge a hell of a lot more than 100 isk.
If you are going to raise the price, the cost of changing the price should be about 1/2 of what it was to post it. This way a human consideration need to look at each order as now there is some risk there for a choice to be invovled.
make market warfare ammo cost something!!!
raise the cost of changing orders to something signigificant like 25-50% of the cost of posting the order. I agree with several people: CCP needs to focus most of eve's recources on FIS, but the development of WIS still needs to continue, just as a slower and more efficient pace. In eve I wish to be more than just a machine. |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
389
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Posted - 2012.02.06 11:16:00 -
[58] - Quote
Borun Tal wrote:If mining bots: kill them. Rejoice in the awesomeness that is King of Killmails, if you're into that tripe. If missioning bots, follow them on missions, loot/salvage, profit. ps: check Kamio. Loaded with ice mining bots. You're welcome. pps: can't wait for Hulkageddon.
The problem with this ^^ is that it completely ignores null. Go take a run through null. Use DOTLAN and look for ice systems with a constant pulse of NPC kills. These are the systems people are ice mining. Now go there. What you will find when you get there is nothing or half a dozen or more mackinaws POS'd all with the same names save one or two letters. What you will also see are fresh kills in those ice belts. Stay there for more than ten minutes and those guys will log. Leave and come back in an hour and they'll POS up again. Stay for ten more minutes and they'll log again.
All you're doing by killing HS miners is deterring competition for the real professionals in null.
And yet hulkageddon has turned into a sport supported for and by null for which CCP have turned a blind eye which in any other circumstance would be considered griefing getting the offenders kicked.
I think this thread is making a strong argument about CCP, null and botting relationships and none of it looks good. We want breast augmentations and sluttier clothing in the NeX! |
Nuela
Beacon Light Corporation Beacon Light Alliance
4
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Posted - 2012.02.08 20:10:00 -
[59] - Quote
Pinaculus wrote:I find it amusing that we humans are even being automated out of our own hobbies.
LOL! I was thinking the same thing...except it was:
"We are even being outsourced out of our own games"
Yours makes more sense though. |
Minabunny
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
11
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Posted - 2012.02.08 20:29:00 -
[60] - Quote
You will never stop the mass bot operations that do it for profit. Here or in any game. If there is a market demand, someone will be more than happy to meet it. Selling currency for real money has been around since the 90's and so has game automation. It's not going anywhere.
Now If you want to stop the average player(s) in eve that bot you need to look at why they bot. If you can't figure out the game mechanics that turn an average 'player' towards automation, take your blinders off. It's the eve developers that would have to institute changes to the game to curb this behavior.
I'm sure CCP already has their own detection methods for all the popular bot software. Do you really think a company does not have their own security team that purchase this software break down it's functions and devise ways of detection? Give them some credit. What do you think would happen if CCP banned every account that ever used some type of automation? I would lay odds that their active user account graphic would be taking a serious nose dive. Just watch the stats after a major patch and all the bots are down to get a general idea of how much botting activity goes on in Eve.
The average player 'botting' is not hurting CCP if anything it's keeping them in business. I would gather that majority of bots here are not botting to RMT. They are doing it to support multiple accounts. Which if you play this game for any length of time you will see most players have 3,4,5+ accounts to play it efficiently. A guy in my last corp had 10 accounts! This leads back to eve real time mechanics.
Eve's mechanics push it's customers into multiple accounts. This artificially inflates their customer numbers. It also lets them garner more $$ out of a single customer than any other game. This is much needed when your game is so micro niche it doesn't attract a large customer base to support itself. They also have an insanely high turn around of eve / new players to the game because of it's general game play. Everyone knows eve is 'different' and is a 'higher' learning curve. (least that's what they like to say) Doesn't take a rocket scientist to play eve.. Just a patient player that's willing to spend years to get anywhere in quite honestly some extremely boring combat and a boring pve system. Then right when the player thinks they are at a good place they load up evemon and find out they can easily fill up another 365 day plan to take another year of their life. ... (ok, so I'm a little bitter)
So what does hurt CCP....
The large scale bot 'operations' that sell ISK. These operations hinder CCP's own RMT system. If people are purchasing ISK via websites or through in game traders this takes money out of CCP's pocket. These players are not purchasing time codes and turning them into plex to 'buy' their ISK properly. Thus CCP plex system is not working to it's full potential. So whom should they go after first. Joe-Bob that's simply trying to support his multiple accounts (that eve's own mechanics force him into) or (insert cheap labor cost country) that's running mass operations and selling ISK for $$ causing CCP to take a loss?
I'm not saying that normal players botting is right or wrong. I'm just pointing out that people should look at it more than from a torch and pitchfork stance and look at the big picture. Want to stop 'normal' players from botting look towards the developers of the game to address the issues on 'why' a 'normal' player turns to automation.
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